Tolkien 2.0

[Jo498]

The sound overall was bad and dull. I would also skip the effects. Your content is good enough without such distracting gimmicks.

[Yukle]

9 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

For future reference, which bits were the most problematic? 

None of it, I was just more rusty that I thought when it came to remembering things.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Interesting news:

What is interesting is the page count - 304.

• The 1917 Fall of Gondolin from The Book of Lost Tales - including commentary - is page 144 to 220. So 76 pages.
• Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin - including commentary - is page 23 to 74. So 51 pages.
• The Silmarillion summary is page 287 to 295. So 8 pages.
• The unpublished Lay of the Fall of Gondolin is apparently short.

So unless they are padding out 135-140 pages (+ a short poem) into 304 pages, with massive font and the mother of all introductions from Christopher, there might actually be something new here...

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

9 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Interesting news:

What is interesting is the page count - 304.

• The 1917 Fall of Gondolin from The Book of Lost Tales - including commentary - is page 144 to 220. So 76 pages.
• Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin - including commentary - is page 23 to 74. So 51 pages.
• The Silmarillion summary is page 287 to 295. So 8 pages.
• The unpublished Lay of the Fall of Gondolin is apparently short.

So unless they are padding out 135-140 pages (+ a short poem) into 304 pages, with massive font and the mother of all introductions from Christopher, there might actually be something new here...

 

I’m rather excited to read this one.

[Jussi]

From Edelweiss catalog:

https://www.edelweiss.plus/#sku=1328613046

Quote

320 pages

8 color plates, approx. 12 pencil drawings, and one red and black fold out map

[Brendan Moody]

Considering that The Children of Húrin turned about 100 pages of Unfinished Tales and about 15 pages of The Silmarillion into a 320-page book, I doubt there’s necessarily much new here. The Edelweiss catalog listing mentions that the Eärendel story is outlined here; I imagine there’s a lot of contextual stuff like that.

[The Marquis de Leech]

20 hours ago, Brendan Moody said:

Considering that The Children of Húrin turned about 100 pages of Unfinished Tales and about 15 pages of The Silmarillion into a 320-page book, I doubt there’s necessarily much new here. The Edelweiss catalog listing mentions that the Eärendel story is outlined here; I imagine there’s a lot of contextual stuff like that.

Perhaps. Though The Children of Hurin did scrape together enough bits and pieces to actually form a more-or-less complete story. I'd be very surprised if there were a similar scraping effort here, rather than just presenting us with the different versions and commentary, and without a long-form narrative, there's less scope for stretching and padding.

Fingers crossed anyway.

[The Marquis de Leech]

A lengthy look at Denethor:

https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2018/04/13/the-richard-nixon-of-middle-earth-a-denethor-character-analysis/

[SeanF]

5 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

A lengthy look at Denethor:

https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2018/04/13/the-richard-nixon-of-middle-earth-a-denethor-character-analysis/

Denethor would have made a very good Eastern Roman Emperor, as you imply.  I could imagine him as Justinian, to Thorongil's Belisarius. I think that he's rather like Macchiavelli's Prince, a realist, who does what is necessary to further his ends. Tolkien said himself, that in real life, Sauron's enemies would never have destroyed the Ring, but rather, have used it to fight Mordor.  Denethor might conclude, quite rationally, that ultimately, use of the Ring would corrupt Gondor, but that would be several hundred years down the line, and if you're doomed anyway, purchasing several hundred years of survival is worth it.

WRT the comparison with Tywin, I doubt if the letter would ever have committed suicide.  I think he would prefer to go down with the ship.

 

[Brendan Moody]

3 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Perhaps. Though The Children of Hurin did scrape together enough bits and pieces to actually form a more-or-less complete story. I'd be very surprised if there were a similar scraping effort here, rather than just presenting us with the different versions and commentary, and without a long-form narrative, there's less scope for stretching and padding.

Fingers crossed anyway.

I’m just getting at how much difference text size and formatting can make to page count. Most of the work done in creating The Children of Húrin was a matter of rearranging that material from Unfinished Tales and The Silmarillion into a continuous text. Very little of the 227 pages of narrative in the former isn’t part of that 115ish pages of the latter.

But it’s really impossible to say, as apparently this book follows the jumbled-texts “history in sequence” approach of the Beren and Lúthien book, so there’s no way to know how things will be broken up. I think they’d be trumpeting it in the press releases if there was much new beyond the odd passage, but time will tell.

[Hereward]

Fantastic essay, Roose. Denethor has always been my favourite character, which probably doesn’t say much good about me as an aging English conservative!

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Hereward said:

Fantastic essay, Roose. Denethor has always been my favourite character, which probably doesn’t say much good about me as an aging English conservative!

I think RBPL should try to get the essays published.  They are all very good.

My impression is that he has something of a soft spot for both Denethor and Ar-Pharazon.

[Hereward]

25 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think RBPL should try to get the essays published.  They are all very good.

I concur. I'd buy it.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

On 4/12/2018 at 11:07 AM, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

A lengthy look at Denethor:

https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2018/04/13/the-richard-nixon-of-middle-earth-a-denethor-character-analysis/

I'm right there with you.  Peter Jackson's handling of Denethor has been one of my biggest issues with his LOTR trilogy for years.

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I'm right there with you.  Peter Jackson's handling of Denethor has been one of my biggest issues with his LOTR trilogy for years.

I still can't understand how someone could so misinterpret a character.

I can't make up my mind which I disliked more;  the portrayal of Denethor, or making the Ride of the Rohirrim pointless, by having Mordor's forces wiped out by the Soap Bubbles of Death.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

17 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I still can't understand how someone could so misinterpret a character.

I can't make up my mind which I disliked more;  the portrayal of Denethor, or making the Ride of the Rohirrim pointless, by having Mordor's forces wiped out by the Soap Bubbles of Death.

They're both poor choices.  Heck why not send the Dead on to Mordor and have them take out the forces there as well.  Either they're a one shot deal of they are an unstoppable force that no sane leader would let go of until all threats are dealt with.

 

[Spring Bass]

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

I still can't understand how someone could so misinterpret a character.

I can't make up my mind which I disliked more;  the portrayal of Denethor, or making the Ride of the Rohirrim pointless, by having Mordor's forces wiped out by the Soap Bubbles of Death.

Definitely soap bubbles of death*, because it contributes to the impression the movies give of Gondor being a Big Tower City and a Giant Field (as opposed to a large kingdom of which Minas Tirith is only part) as well. At least with Denethor, the damage is mostly limited to his character. 

Jackson liked to insert interpersonal drama for characters for some reason, even when it dragged on the film. 

* Although I'm more annoyed that we didn't get the scene with trapped Saruman at Orthanc from the books in order to have a too long battle at Helm's Deep. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

11 hours ago, Fall Bass said:

Definitely soap bubbles of death*, because it contributes to the impression the movies give of Gondor being a Big Tower City and a Giant Field (as opposed to a large kingdom of which Minas Tirith is only part) as well. At least with Denethor, the damage is mostly limited to his character. 

Jackson liked to insert interpersonal drama for characters for some reason, even when it dragged on the film. 

* Although I'm more annoyed that we didn't get the scene with trapped Saruman at Orthanc from the books in order to have a too long battle at Helm's Deep. 

We get an abbreviated Saurman trapped in Orthanc in the extended edition of Return of the King.

[AlpenglowMemories]

26 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

We get an abbreviated Saurman trapped in Orthanc in the extended edition of Return of the King.

It's also an abbreviated Scouring: Wormtongue cuts Saruman's throat, Legolas shoots Grima with an arrow, and then Saruman... tumbles off the tower and is impaled on a spikey mechanical wheel that begins to turn and drags him underwater. Then Treebeard makes a pun. Jackson's inability to keep his horror-comedy tendencies out of Rings grates. 

One thing about the films, and Denethor, is that it feels like Jackson can only conceptualize increasing one character's agency by diminishing the other. Similar things happen with the ents: Merry and Pippin are pushing for action whilst the ents become fools who don't know the forest they live in and watch over is being destroyed. Jackson wants Pippin to do more in King, so he has him light the beacons, which leads to a lunatic Denethor that undermines his own city by... doing nothing and actively being against any form of defense. 

Book Denethor is a figure that can be against our heroes, but also is worthy of respecting and shows capability and intellect. Film Denethor shouts a lot. And eats tomatoes messily... while Faramir attempts an absurd plan to retake Osgiliath (take about 100 men and ride towards the place in broad daylight!). 

[The Marquis de Leech]

1 hour ago, AlpenglowMemories said:

Faramir attempts an absurd plan to retake Osgiliath (take about 100 men and ride towards the place in broad daylight!). 

It's also a tad hypocritical of Jackson to portray that as the Charge of the Light Brigade, when he portrays Eomer and Gandalf charging pikes on horseback, and Aragorn charging the orcs at the Black Gate. Never mind Gandalf's advice that Theoden ought to ride out and meet Saruman head-on.