Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

The Marquis de Leech

Tolkien 2.0

Recommended Posts

7 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

The scenario in which Saruman gets the ring is really interesting.  

Another counter-factual that's always interested me is if Galadriel had accepted Frodo's offer of the Ring,.  If I was faced with her predicament (the one Elf who is doomed to remain on Middle Earth if Sauron conquers it) I'd have accepted it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes, the Saruman scenario is plausible enough and the only one that would give a decent story, even if some of the others might be more likely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/14/2018 at 12:39 AM, SeanF said:

The scenario in which Saruman gets the ring is really interesting.  

Another counter-factual that's always interested me is if Galadriel had accepted Frodo's offer of the Ring,.  If I was faced with her predicament (the one Elf who is doomed to remain on Middle Earth if Sauron conquers it) I'd have accepted it.

As you command:

https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2018/07/15/tolkienian-speculative-guessing-ii-all-shall-love-me-and-despair/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

The fact that taking the One Ring would Galadriel everything she could want is what makes her rejection of it so impressive, from a moral point of view.

I've always thought of the Lady from The Black Company series as being what Galadriel would have become, had she taken the Ring.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The fact that taking the One Ring would Galadriel everything she could want is what makes her rejection of it so impressive, from a moral point of view.

With the proviso that Galadriel getting everything she wants throws Rohan, Gondor, and Mordor under the bus. I'd say the only winners out of this are Elves and Dunlendings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

With the proviso that Galadriel getting everything she wants throws Rohan, Gondor, and Mordor under the bus. say the only winners out of this are Elves and Dunlendings.

Well I would say “winners” in a very sceptical way. The victory benefits them certainly, but as you mention everyone must be subservient to her..how long until she becomes the utter tyrant she sought to depose? 

Im also interested in how Rivendell and Elrond fit into your hypothetical. Does Galadriel become paranoid toward some the owners of the three? (And did she sieze Gandalf’s when she imprisoned him?) Wouldn’t Elron oppose his mother-in-law’s actions? What of the Dunedain heading South on aid Aragorn?

i enjoy your speculations by the way

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Well I would say “winners” in a very sceptical way. The victory benefits them certainly, but as you mention everyone must be subservient to her..how long until she becomes the utter tyrant she sought to depose? 

Im also interested in how Rivendell and Elrond fit into your hypothetical. Does Galadriel become paranoid toward some the owners of the three? (And did she sieze Gandalf’s when she imprisoned him?) Wouldn’t Elron oppose his mother-in-law’s actions? What of the Dunedain heading South on aid Aragorn?

i enjoy your speculations by the way

Elves get to be the ruling race of Middle Earth, so they would be winners, at least for a time. But, eventually, Galadriel would become as bad as Ar Pharazon at the end, or Sauron, so there would be no real winners ultimately.

I should imagine that Galadriel would want to take all the Rings of Power, so that would lead to conflict with Elrond and Cirdan.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My guess is that she'd take Narya off Gandalf, holding it out as a sort of "good behaviour" thing. And Gandalf, being Gandalf, would not take kindly to it.

Elrond either finds out when messengers arrive in Rivendell, or at the latest when Galadriel openly claims the Ring. I don't think she does this immediately, because she needs time to build up. Meanwhile, Elrond is not in a position to do anything.

One point someone raised - would Galadriel try to rescue Aragorn and company (Legolas is useful) before Saruman's forces come? She might well see it in her Mirror. On the other hand, she has distractions...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Scott de Montevideo! said:

Sounds like LOTR written by GRRM.

I expect that's how most modern authors would write it.

Tolkien himself in the Foreword wrote that in real life, someone would have sought to make use of the Ring, rather than seek to destroy it. The text makes plain that a powerful person could have caused Sauron real harm by using the Ring.  It's pretty cold comfort to Sauron if that person turns out to be corrupted by the Ring eventually.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I tend to think that Sauron couldn't really "win" in the Third Age, because Illuvatar was putting his hand on the metaphorical scales. It was either going to be that they chose to try and destroy the Ring, or one of the powerful would have claimed it and used its power to push the day of reckoning off even further for both Elves and Sauron. 

If Galadriel took the Ring, Elrond, Gandalf, Aragorn, and Saruman would be severely dismayed. But at first it would probably seem great - she'd use its power to amplify her own, raise an army, and crush Sauron once more (although he can't be permanently destroyed with the Ring intact). The Lothlorien Elves would thrive (assuming Gollum or one of the Elves doesn't commit a Thingol-esque murder to steal it), Gondor would probably be rebuilt in power, and so forth. The sourness would come later, as she became increasingly arrogant and unwilling to tolerate change or the passage of time (she's used her existing ring to effectively change its flow and power within Lothlorien).  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think any sort of safeguard like that was in place, with Iluvatar/ Valar coming in and saving the game. Not at all in fact. A Sauron win, would be a Sauron win.

As for other possible One Ring bearers, the most interesting scenario for me was always Saruman or Gandalf, not Galadriel ( or Elrond). I like this suggested scenario that IF the Ringwraights had succeeded and had fled with the One Ring, and had to pass through the Gap of Rohan, Saruman could ambush and intervene. He would have the power to overwhelm the Wraiths, it seems sure. Question is, what then?

As suggested, Sauron indeed would come for him, and would Saruman with the One Ring be able to hold out against Sauron? Assume he allies his army with that of Gondor and Rohan? Possibly. Problem is of course that the Ring would very likely completely corrupt Saruman's already flawed moral character and you end up with either two tyrants in Sauron and a levelled up and deranged Saruman, or with Saruman as a puppet for Sauron, which incidentally is how Jackson chose to portray Saruman anyway.

Sometimes people forget that Movie Saruman is quite different from Book Saruman; the latter tried to play both sides.

But what if Gandalf had taken the Ring? I believe this is answered in Letters as well but I am not sure anymore. Just seems like Gandalf and the One Ring are too incompatible. He fears it would turn him into just such a tyrant as would surely happen with Saruman.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

I don't think any sort of safeguard like that was in place, with Iluvatar/ Valar coming in and saving the game. Not at all in fact. A Sauron win, would be a Sauron win.

As for other possible One Ring bearers, the most interesting scenario for me was always Saruman or Gandalf, not Galadriel ( or Elrond). I like this suggested scenario that IF the Ringwraights had succeeded and had fled with the One Ring, and had to pass through the Gap of Rohan, Saruman could ambush and intervene. He would have the power to overwhelm the Wraiths, it seems sure. Question is, what then?

As suggested, Sauron indeed would come for him, and would Saruman with the One Ring be able to hold out against Sauron? Assume he allies his army with that of Gondor and Rohan? Possibly. Problem is of course that the Ring would very likely completely corrupt Saruman's already flawed moral character and you end up with either two tyrants in Sauron and a levelled up and deranged Saruman, or with Saruman as a puppet for Sauron, which incidentally is how Jackson chose to portray Saruman anyway.

Sometimes people forget that Movie Saruman is quite different from Book Saruman; the latter tried to play both sides.

But what if Gandalf had taken the Ring? I believe this is answered in Letters as well but I am not sure anymore. Just seems like Gandalf and the One Ring are too incompatible. He fears it would turn him into just such a tyrant as would surely happen with Saruman.

Tolkien's view was that Gandalf would have become a self-righteous tyrant, claiming to be good, while actually being bad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, but is that worse than the Saruman gets the Ring scenario I wonder.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel most of the counterfactual scenarios with regard to Lord of the Rings are addressed in Jacqueline Carey's Sundering duology (which is very blatantly LotR rewritten from the Witch-King of Angmar's POV, with some names and maps changed to avoid getting sued). Some very clever and interesting ideas there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Calibandar said:

I don't think any sort of safeguard like that was in place, with Iluvatar/ Valar coming in and saving the game. Not at all in fact. A Sauron win, would be a Sauron win.

As for other possible One Ring bearers, the most interesting scenario for me was always Saruman or Gandalf, not Galadriel ( or Elrond). I like this suggested scenario that IF the Ringwraights had succeeded and had fled with the One Ring, and had to pass through the Gap of Rohan, Saruman could ambush and intervene. He would have the power to overwhelm the Wraiths, it seems sure. Question is, what then?

As suggested, Sauron indeed would come for him, and would Saruman with the One Ring be able to hold out against Sauron? Assume he allies his army with that of Gondor and Rohan? Possibly. Problem is of course that the Ring would very likely completely corrupt Saruman's already flawed moral character and you end up with either two tyrants in Sauron and a levelled up and deranged Saruman, or with Saruman as a puppet for Sauron, which incidentally is how Jackson chose to portray Saruman anyway.

Sometimes people forget that Movie Saruman is quite different from Book Saruman; the latter tried to play both sides.

But what if Gandalf had taken the Ring? I believe this is answered in Letters as well but I am not sure anymore. Just seems like Gandalf and the One Ring are too incompatible. He fears it would turn him into just such a tyrant as would surely happen with Saruman.

I'm not talking about the Valar, who are clearly well beyond any sort of direct "save-the-day" intervention by the Third Age. It's implied that Illuvatar is nudging and tweaking events to get certain outcomes through the story, like the Ring slipping from Gollum's grasp just in time for Bilbo to find it, or Gollum slipping and falling into the Cracks of Doom.  It's why I don't think Sauron was going to get the Ring back in the Third Age, although I suppose that doesn't rule out him destroying Gondor like the northern kingdoms were destroyed by Angmar.

 

9 hours ago, Calibandar said:

Yes, but is that worse than the Saruman gets the Ring scenario I wonder.

Tolkien seemed to think so. In Letter 246, he said outright that Gandalf winning the Ring would be much worse than Sauron for that reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Werthead said:

I feel most of the counterfactual scenarios with regard to Lord of the Rings are addressed in Jacqueline Carey's Sundering duology (which is very blatantly LotR rewritten from the Witch-King of Angmar's POV, with some names and maps changed to avoid getting sued). Some very clever and interesting ideas there.

It's not so much counterfactual, so much as a raw perspective flip (I'd say Abercrombie's Bayaz is the closest we get in the genre to a portrait of Gandalf with the Ring).

I have mixed feelings on Carey's duology. As always, I love her prose (I have a great fondness for purple prose, and here she goes ultraviolet), and it's a fun enough pastime to spot who is whom. My biggest complaint is that the duology simply does not "get" Tolkienian Evil at the thematic level. Morgoth wasn't Evil because he was misunderstood, a bit emo, and wore black armour. He was Evil because he did Evil. The Sundering is to Tolkien as a Heathcliff fangirl is to Wuthering Heights.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Summer Bass said:

Tolkien seemed to think so. In Letter 246, he said outright that Gandalf winning the Ring would be much worse than Sauron for that reason.

Full quote here, because it is enjoyable:

 

Spoiler

Suddenly realizing his peril, Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. Fully instructed, they would not have been deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring, and the wearer would not have been invisible to them and would be more vulnerable to their weapons. But Frodo had grown since Weathertop; would they have been immune to his power? Not wholly, said Tolkien. They would not have attacked or taken him captive; they would have pretended to obey any of Frodo's commands that would not contradict Sauron's, who still held their nine rings and thus had primary control of their wills. They would endeavor to remove Frodo from the Crack and once he had lost the power or opportunity to destroy the Ring the outcome could not be in doubt.

Frodo had been enlarged spiritually and had a much stronger will, but he had only used it in resisting the Ring. He would have needed much time before he could control it, or actually before the Ring increased his will and arrogance to the point where he could dominate other major wills. Even so for a long time he would believe his acts to be "good", to be for the benefit of others. Frodo facing the Eight (the Witch-king was gone) was like a small brave man with a devastating weapon facing eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned blades. Frodo's weakness would be not knowing how to use the weapon and being adverse to violence. Their weakness would be their fear of his weapon and their conditioning of servility to its owner. They would have called him "Lord" and induced him to go look upon his new kingdom. Once outside the chamber they would have destroyed the entrance. Then all would have waited until Sauron came, when Frodo would have been overthrown. Sauron would have had no fear of the Ring! It was his and under his will. In his presence none but very few of equal stature could have withheld it from him. Aragorn could not; he only won the battle for the Palantírbecause he was the rightful owner and because it took place at considerable distance. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible, in form a man of more than human stature (but not gigantic).

Of any others only Gandalf might be expected to master him since he was a creature of the same order. In Lothlórien Galadriel appeared to believe that she could wield the Ring and supplant Sauron[3] but she knew it was not so; her rejection of the Ring was based on previous thought and resolve. Had she or Elrond used the Ring they would have built great armies under absolutely subservient generals and gone to destroy Sauron by force.

Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been a contest between the Ring's true allegiance to Sauron versus Gandalf's actually possession of the Ring. But if Gandalf had been the victor it would have been far worse than Sauron winning. The "righteous" Gandalf would have become self-righteous, ruling and ordering things for "good" until he had made good detestable and seem evil.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×