Big Walder Analysis

[estermonty python]

14 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I agree. It would also be extremely odd/out of character for BW to be wrong about it. I think every Frey would know that Jinglebell has no kids, especially BW. 

IMO, George had not yet decided that Aegon would be Jinglebell when he wrote CoK. 

This was your find! Well done. I always just skimmed over BW's succession breakdown assuming it was correct. I've always been terrible at keeping track of the Frey family tree. 

Alas, I am embarrassed to admit I misread the wiki family tab.  I was in a hurry to wrap up my post before heading to a meeting at work and saw Rhaegar's sons names directly underneath Aegon. Sorry. He doesn't have any sons. I'm going to quietly tip toe my way out of here now... 

I'm pretty sure that if nothing else, this thread has concluded that literally anyone, including GRRM, can be wrong about the Frey family tree with no shame necessary!

I actually think it would be kind of funny for the Freys to be so numerous and complicated that even they can't remember how specifically they are related to one another.

This exercise also highlights what a terrible match Tytos Lannister made by marrying Genna to Emmon Frey, by the way.  That would be like Ned marrying Sansa to Andrew Estermont.  (You don't even want to know how long it took me to come up with someone who was like 4th in line to a mid-sized noble house to make this analogy). 

[Neolaina]

My only problem with this otherwise flawless look at Big Walder is that you repeat the word psychopath where you often mean sociopath, noted by a lack of emotion or feeling BW seems to feel towards a number of moments that should warrant a reaction, as well as his bluntness and lack of tact when stating things without regard to the mood of the room or nature of the incident. This by no means devalues your assessment, as you did initially use both words near the beginning in tandem. The only reason I bring this up - and hell, I'm only about halfway done, so I will be scrolling back up - is because it's halted my flow of reading.

Alright, back up I go. Curious to see if there's any new insights therein. Thus far, you've nailed it.

Edit: I want to add that while many sociopathic tendencies would be present in a psychopath, psychopathy is often underscored by abject violence, abnormal or otherwise, a seeming instability and aggression. None of these traits are particularly present in LW, with the exception of a thesis that might look to proving BW having killed LW, and even then, I'd still be weary of using that term.

===

Second edit: I laughed when I hit the BW killing LW portion, as I hadn't quite reached there when I made the first edit. It's a pretty good breakdown.

All in all, my only gripe was brought up by OtherFromAnotherMother, comparing speech and textual clues for who went on the hunt. I'm in the LW camp, as well. I made a post once comparing their ways of speech, and specific tendencies therein. Nothing you've stated went overlooked, but I simply can't draw the conclusion that it was BW on that hunt. The evidence simply isn't enough.

That said, I don't particularly think that sways the quality of the post. Further, your Machiavellian analysis of LW effectively getting the Freys and the Manderlys at each others' throats following the death of LW is deviously enjoyable. Even if it doesn't end up being true, I want it to be. It's amusing at the least, and it would be an excellent set of actions that complement his motivations, at best.

Ah, let's hope he continues to rise, that Big Walder.

Third Edit: Fixing my idiocy by calling one Walder by the other's adjective.

Fourth Edit: Still fixing my idiocy.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

12 minutes ago, Neolaina said:

My only problem with this otherwise flawless look at Little Walder is that you repeat the word psychopath where you often mean sociopath, noted by a lack of emotion or feeling LW seems to feel towards a number of moments that should warrant a reaction, as well as his bluntness and lack of tact when stating things without regard to the mood of the room or nature of the incident. This by no means devalues your assessment, as you did initially use both words near the beginning in tandem. The only reason I bring this up - and hell, I'm only about halfway done, so I will be scrolling back up - is because it's halted my flow of reading.

Assuming you are meaning Big Walder I agree. Sociopath would probably be a better description. Google defines sociopath as "a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience" This fits with his reaction to several moments  (uncle's death and eating right after he sees a man murdered). It also fits better, IMO, with his cold calculation that he would have killed his family if he were Manderly. Also fits with Theon's description of him, "Little Walder had become Lord Ramsay’s best boy and grew more like him every day, but the smaller Frey was made of different stuff and seldom took part in his cousin’s games and cruelties."

 

[Neolaina]

16 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Assuming you are meaning Big Walder I agree. Sociopath would probably be a better description. Google defines sociopath as "a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience" This fits with his reaction to several moments  (uncle's death and eating right after he sees a man murdered). It also fits better, IMO, with his cold calculation that he would have killed his family if he were Manderly. Also fits with Theon's description of him, "Little Walder had become Lord Ramsay’s best boy and grew more like him every day, but the smaller Frey was made of different stuff and seldom took part in his cousin’s games and cruelties."

 

Jesus. I'm a mess. Yes, I did mean BW. I actually fucked that up a bunch, and when editing, I missed that instance. >.<

All fixed now.

[Dofs]

Calling BW a sociopath and/or a psychopath is really stretching it. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

37 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Calling BW a sociopath and/or a psychopath is really stretching it. 

Care to elaborate? 

I suppose psychopath and sociopath are subjective terms, especially when considering this is Westeros 300 A.C.

While he does not always display the anti social behavior  (playing Lord of the Crossing, playing with Rickon) he certainly displays a lack of conscience with speaking of succession immediately after hearing of his uncle's death, saying he would kill his family if he were Manderly, and killing his cousin. So he fits half of the sociopath definition I suppose. Is there a better term for this? 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

What about me?  Did you forget about me?  No love for Lothar?  I engineered the red wedding and got rid of the Stark rebels. 

I agree with your conclusion.  That kid is smart.  I disagree that he's a psychopath/sociopath.  Death and violence were very much parts of the medieval ages.  Ser Stevron outlived the average man already and anyone over sixty in those times is living on borrowed time.  His death is no surprise.  He died from battle wounds but he could die tomorrow from the flu.  Unlike you, I sensed BW didn't approve of killing the old goat herd but resigned himself and made the best of it.  Little Walder is an ignorant beast and would have made for an ineffective replacement for Lord Walder.  Big Walder on the other hand would make a very capable lord to rule over a great house like the Freys.  He has uncanny intelligence and just enough ruthlessness to be effective in ruling.

[Bironic]

2 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Care to elaborate? 

I suppose psychopath and sociopath are subjective terms, especially when considering this is Westeros 300 A.C.

While he does not always display the anti social behavior  (playing Lord of the Crossing, playing with Rickon) he certainly displays a lack of conscience with speaking of succession immediately after hearing of his uncle's death, saying he would kill his family if he were Manderly, and killing his cousin. So he fits half of the sociopath definition I suppose. Is there a better term for this? 

 

5 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Assuming you are meaning Big Walder I agree. Sociopath would probably be a better description. Google defines sociopath as "a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience" This fits with his reaction to several moments  (uncle's death and eating right after he sees a man murdered). It also fits better, IMO, with his cold calculation that he would have killed his family if he were Manderly. Also fits with Theon's description of him, "Little Walder had become Lord Ramsay’s best boy and grew more like him every day, but the smaller Frey was made of different stuff and seldom took part in his cousin’s games and cruelties."

 

If this is true a large part of westerosi noblemen would be sociopaths and or psychopaths.

Godric Borrell suggests as well that Wyman Manderly should kill the Freys who brought back his dead son's bones. That's exactly what Manderly does. BW shows that he's smart and cunning, he didn't say I'll kill my own family. Does Jaime Lannister or Tyrion show any grief after they hear about their uncle Stafford's death? Tywin Lannister gives up on his favourite son Jaime after he gets captured, the same as the Blackfsh after edmure's capture, or Balon after Theon's capture. Old Lord Hunter has been killed by his youngest son, a son who will soon kill his elder brethren, according to LF. Tywin Lannister wiped out two entire families. Arnolf Karstark conspires to marry off his niece Alys to his son and tries to force the Lannisters to kill his own nephew and rightful lord Harrion. Randyll Tarly threatens to kill his eldest son, after mobbing him in various ways. Stannis Baratheon was an accomplice in his brother's murder (although maybe unknowingly). Bronn would kill a babe at the breast for the right amount of money, Allar Deem does it for free. Victarion kills his wife. And the list goes on.

Basically if you want to survive or thrive in Westerosi nobility/society you need to show off the attributes of a sociopath: lack of empathy, lack of conscience, etc. this doesn't mean that you are a sociopath. For example Bran notices that both Ned and Robb have a "Lord's face" that is very different from their behaviour in private. Both can be harsh and cold at times and they know they have to be perceived by others as such in order to survive.

Yes there are better terms to describe BW and other characters: ruthless, cunning, smart, effective, unscrupulous, intelligent, harsh, hard, ambitious, dangerous, brutal, efficient, cold, severe, etc.

We don't need to diagnose them all with the DSM

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 minutes ago, Bironic said:

We don't need to diagnose them all with the DSM

 

Fair enough. This started with me agreeing that psychopath was not a good description. I suggested sociopath would be more accurate than psycopath.

You'll read I said, " he certainly displays a lack of conscience" which is part of sociopathic behavior. I don't think this can really be disputed.

The difficulty comes from using real life terms (dsm or otherwise) to describe characters in a fictional universe. I think many of out characters could be described in these terms if transplanted into real life. Westeros 300 A.C is obviously different. My main point is that BW is not your average 9 year old, even for Westeros 300 A.C standards. 

[Bironic]

Just now, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Fair enough. This started with me agreeing that psychopath was not a good description. I suggested sociopath would be more accurate than psycopath.

You'll read I said, " he certainly displays a lack of conscience" which is part of sociopathic behavior. I don't think this can really be disputed.

The difficulty comes from using real life terms (dsm or otherwise) to describe characters in a fictional universe. I think many of out characters could be described in these terms if transplanted into real life. Westeros 300 A.C is obviously different. My main point is that BW is not your average 9 year old, even for Westeros 300 A.C standards. 

I agree

[Darth Sidious]

Excellent analysis of big Walder Frey.  It's the kids taking over. 

[Aegon VII]

On 12/30/2016 at 9:20 AM, Neolaina said:

My only problem with this otherwise flawless look at Big Walder is that you repeat the word psychopath where you often mean sociopath, noted by a lack of emotion or feeling BW seems to feel towards a number of moments that should warrant a reaction, as well as his bluntness and lack of tact when stating things without regard to the mood of the room or nature of the incident. This by no means devalues your assessment, as you did initially use both words near the beginning in tandem. The only reason I bring this up - and hell, I'm only about halfway done, so I will be scrolling back up - is because it's halted my flow of reading.

You're absolutely right. I was lazy with my verbiage at this point (and most of the analysis). I'm a thinker much more than a writer. Part of the difficultly lies in the fact that the definition/perception of sociopath and pscyhopath has been largely influenced by movies and such and because of it the medical community has moved away from using the terms. This leaves us with a vague definition of what the two terms actually mean. I wil copy from WebMD.com here. If you google, "sociopath vs psychopath" this will be one of the first links. I chose this not because it suited my purposes, but because I believed it would be respected. If you don't trust WebMD I completely understand. Please just do your own google searches and go to the websites you trust before saying, "this is bs".

Here we go from WebMD, I'll use blue to support BW being a Psycho/Sociopath. I'll use Purple to support him being more of a psychopath than a sociopath:

You may have heard people call someone else a “psychopath” or a “sociopath.” But what do those words really mean?

You won’t find the definitions in mental health’s official handbook, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Doctors don’t officially diagnose people as psychopaths or sociopaths. They use a different term instead: antisocial personality disorder.

Most experts believe psychopaths and sociopaths share a similar set of traits. People like this have a poor inner sense of right and wrong. They also can’t seem to understand or share another person’s feelings. But there are some differences, too.

 

Do They Have a Conscience?

A key difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is whether he has a conscience, the little voice inside that lets us know when we’re doing something wrong, says L. Michael Tompkins, EdD. He's a psychologist at the Sacramento County Mental Health Treatment Center.

A psychopath doesn’t have a conscience. If he lies to you so he can steal your money, he won’t feel any moral qualms, though he may pretend to. He may observe others and then act the way they do so he’s not “found out,” Tompkins says.

A sociopath typically has a conscience, but it’s weak. He may know that taking your money is wrong, and he might feel some guilt or remorse, but that won’t stop his behavior.

Both lack empathy, the ability to stand in someone else’s shoes and understand how they feel. But a psychopath has less regard for others, says Aaron Kipnis, PhD, author of The Midas Complex. Someone with this personality type sees others as objects he can use for his own benefit.

They’re Not Always Violent

In movies and TV shows, psychopaths and sociopaths are usually the villains who kill or torture innocent people. In real life, some people with antisocial personality disorder can be violent, but most are not. Instead they use manipulation and reckless behavior to get what they want.

“At worst, they’re cold, calculating killers,” Kipnis says. Others, he says, are skilled at climbing their way up the corporate ladder, even if they have to hurt someone to get there.

If you recognize some of these traits in a family member or coworker, you may be tempted to think you’re living or working with a psychopath or sociopath. But just because a person is mean or selfish, it doesn’t necessarily mean he has a disorder.

Sociopath vs. Psychopath: What’s the Difference?

'Cold-Hearted Psychopath, Hot-Headed Sociopath'

 

It’s not easy to spot a psychopath. They can be intelligent, charming, and good at mimicking emotions. They may pretend to be interested in you, but in reality, they probably don’t care.

“They’re skilled actors whose sole mission is to manipulate people for personal gain,” Tompkins says.

Sociopaths are less able to play along. They make it plain that they’re not interested in anyone but themselves. They often blame others and have excuses for their behavior.

Some experts see sociopaths as “hot-headed.” They act without thinking how others will be affected.

Psychopaths are more “cold-hearted” and calculating. They carefully plot their moves, and use aggression in a planned-out way to get what they want. If they’re after more money or status in the office, for example, they’ll make a plan to take out any barriers that stand in the way, even if it’s another person’s job or reputation.

 

On 12/30/2016 at 9:20 AM, Neolaina said:

Alright, back up I go. Curious to see if there's any new insights therein. Thus far, you've nailed it.

Edit: I want to add that while many sociopathic tendencies would be present in a psychopath, psychopathy is often underscored by abject violence, abnormal or otherwise, a seeming instability and aggression. None of these traits are particularly present in LW, with the exception of a thesis that might look to proving BW having killed LW, and even then, I'd still be weary of using that term.

In my analysis I fully believe BW killed LW, so I'm going to judge BW accordingly. Now, BW vs LW going on Theons hunt, I'm not 100% sure so I have to allow for both possibilities (though of course I think it's BW). And while psychopaths and sociopaths are known for abject violence, I believe this is more perception than a rule as WebMD supports. And I would view the instability and aggression more in line with sociopaths than pscyhopaths.

On 12/30/2016 at 9:20 AM, Neolaina said:

===

Second edit: I laughed when I hit the BW killing LW portion, as I hadn't quite reached there when I made the first edit. It's a pretty good breakdown.

All in all, my only gripe was brought up by OtherFromAnotherMother, comparing speech and textual clues for who went on the hunt. I'm in the BW camp, as well. I made a post once comparing their ways of speech, and specific tendencies therein. Nothing you've stated went overlooked, but I simply can't draw the conclusion that it was BW on that hunt. The evidence simply isn't enough.

Fair enough. I'm going to respond back to the "Big and Little Walder" thread to discuss that further soon. I look forward to it

On 12/30/2016 at 9:20 AM, Neolaina said:

That said, I don't particularly think that sways the quality of the post. Further, your Machiavellian analysis of LW effectively getting the Freys and the Manderlys at each others' throats following the death of LW is deviously enjoyable.

Personally I love a Machiavellian mindset, perhaps that's why I've so enjoyed BW. And I really do think the biggest point is that Roose and Ramsay now have a reason to have the Freys die first. They're leading the strike already and even if a lot survive, the tension remains between Frey and Manderly. Most likely if it comes down to it, the Boltons would take the path of least resistance and kill the freys instead of the manderlys. They know there will be some relative ready to take over and happy to have the chance (as Cersei talks about).

On 12/30/2016 at 9:20 AM, Neolaina said:

Even if it doesn't end up being true, I want it to be. It's amusing at the least, and it would be an excellent set of actions that complement his motivations, at best.

Ah, let's hope he continues to rise, that Big Walder.

Third Edit: Fixing my idiocy by calling one Walder by the other's adjective.

haha. I think you say BW instead of LW in a different part of the post. Is it possible you went to correct that one and corrected the wrong one? It's when you say "I'm in the BW camp, as well."? If not I'm happy to have you in my camp!

On 12/30/2016 at 11:13 AM, Dofs said:

Calling BW a sociopath and/or a psychopath is really stretching it. 

good point

2 hours ago, Lame Lothar Frey said:

What about me?  Did you forget about me?  No love for Lothar?  I engineered the red wedding and got rid of the Stark rebels. 

I agree with your conclusion.  That kid is smart.  I disagree that he's a psychopath/sociopath.  Death and violence were very much parts of the medieval ages.  Ser Stevron outlived the average man already and anyone over sixty in those times is living on borrowed time.  His death is no surprise.  He died from battle wounds but he could die tomorrow from the flu.  Unlike you, I sensed BW didn't approve of killing the old goat herd but resigned himself and made the best of it.  Little Walder is an ignorant beast and would have made for an ineffective replacement for Lord Walder.  Big Walder on the other hand would make a very capable lord to rule over a great house like the Freys.  He has uncanny intelligence and just enough ruthlessness to be effective in ruling.

You're right, but I think BW still is a step beyond. It's difficult because what was normal in midevial times would be considered crazy now adays. We will alwasy be biased if we judge them on today's criteria, but I think GRRM has done a good enough job painting the picture of this world that we can apply our own logics and morals in this completely different setting.

I'm not arguing that BW approved of the kill, just that he was apathetic. There's an argument to be made for BW being a good person. It all comes back to that word Machiavellian. He does not abide by conventional morals but I do believe he has his own. He doesn't have reek take his horse and speaks to him like a person. He follows his own rules.

1 hour ago, Bironic said:

 

If this is true a large part of westerosi noblemen would be sociopaths and or psychopaths.

You're right but to a lesser degree. As I mentioned earlier in this post, it's hard to evaluate given our current views on what's right and wrong. I think when we do put ourselves into a mindset of someone in this world, we can still see BW as a psychopath more so than others. Others will kill their enemies or maybe even their friends to get ahead. BW murders his cousin.

1 hour ago, Bironic said:

Godric Borrell suggests as well that Wyman Manderly should kill the Freys who brought back his dead son's bones. That's exactly what Manderly does.

If he suggested killing Borrells this would be a fair comparison.

1 hour ago, Bironic said:

BW shows that he's smart and cunning, he didn't say I'll kill my own family.

He also declares he will be lord twice, something that would require the other 30 something family members to die, including LW whom he was speaking to both times.

1 hour ago, Bironic said:

Does Jaime Lannister or Tyrion show any grief after they hear about their uncle Stafford's death? Tywin Lannister gives up on his favourite son Jaime after he gets captured, the same as the Blackfsh after edmure's capture, or Balon after Theon's capture. Old Lord Hunter has been killed by his youngest son, a son who will soon kill his elder brethren, according to LF. Tywin Lannister wiped out two entire families. Arnolf Karstark conspires to marry off his niece Alys to his son and tries to force the Lannisters to kill his own nephew and rightful lord Harrion. Randyll Tarly threatens to kill his eldest son, after mobbing him in various ways. Stannis Baratheon was an accomplice in his brother's murder (although maybe unknowingly). Bronn would kill a babe at the breast for the right amount of money, Allar Deem does it for free. Victarion kills his wife. And the list goes on.

All good examples. You're right though, a lot of people in asoiaf would be viewed in todays terms as having psychopathic tendencies in asoiaf. I think these are all significantly more minor than BW with a couple exceptions, the Lannisters and Bronn being the main ones. Even so, when we adopt the mindset of a person in asoiaf, I think we still see BW as the most psychopathic.

1 hour ago, Bironic said:

Basically if you want to survive or thrive in Westerosi nobility/society you need to show off the attributes of a sociopath: lack of empathy, lack of conscience, etc. this doesn't mean that you are a sociopath. For example Bran notices that both Ned and Robb have a "Lord's face" that is very different from their behaviour in private. Both can be harsh and cold at times and they know they have to be perceived by others as such in order to survive.

Yes there are better terms to describe BW and other characters: ruthless, cunning, smart, effective, unscrupulous, intelligent, harsh, hard, ambitious, dangerous, brutal, efficient, cold, severe, etc.

We don't need to diagnose them all with the DSM

 

Very true, but to be fair psycho and sociopath aren't DSM. The problem is I'm looking for words to describe BW and using the best ones I have found. I'd rather people evaluate BW labels aside. The wording may not be perfect, but it should be good enough to allow you to form your own opinion of BW.

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Fair enough. This started with me agreeing that psychopath was not a good description. I suggested sociopath would be more accurate than psycopath.

You'll read I said, " he certainly displays a lack of conscience" which is part of sociopathic behavior. I don't think this can really be disputed.

The difficulty comes from using real life terms (dsm or otherwise) to describe characters in a fictional universe. I think many of out characters could be described in these terms if transplanted into real life. Westeros 300 A.C is obviously different. My main point is that BW is not your average 9 year old, even for Westeros 300 A.C standards. 

I completely agree with the last statement. And I'll respond to the other thread soon to discuss Theon's hunt further. It's a good topic! As far as socio vs psychopath, idk, I think a lot of that is a misconception about what psychopath actually means.

[Aegon VII]

On 12/30/2016 at 8:15 AM, estermonty python said:

This does read like a GRRM mistake - his characters almost never espouse wrong information unless there's a specific reason, and this is too minor a point to be anything but a mistake, IMO.

Interesting no one has ever found this before we did.  It seems to be a somewhat more glaring error than the sex of Dancer...

 

But even though its a moot point now, where are you getting that Bloodborn has 2 sons?  He looks to be childless from the tree I'm looking at - it's his brother Rhaegar that had 2 sons before he became pie.

I just have to say, I'm very happy you guys found this probable mistake in GRRM's writing. If nothing else I feel happy to know that my thread contributed to the spotting of an error never before found (discussed here). Not that I'm happy that GRRM made a mistake, but either way it's a notable discovery. Kudos!

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

35 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

As far as socio vs psychopath, idk, I think a lot of that is a misconception about what psychopath actually means.

I agree. The common perception if both sociopath and psycopath is that they are terrible, violent, hateful, and evil people. Definitions would disagree. Although, to be fair, there probably isn't an agreed-upon-by-all definition of either term. 

IMO, it is okay for us to move on from trying to label BW with a specific, somewhat medical term. It is too hard to give real world labels to characters in a medieval fantasy series. I think most people who read your well laid out OP can come a similar, mostly agreed upon conclusion that BW is not your average 9 year old, even for Westeros 300 A.C standards. Just my two cents. And if someone has a different view of BW, different viewpoints are always welcome and I look forward to a good discussion.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

33 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

I just have to say, I'm very happy you guys found this probable mistake in GRRM's writing. If nothing else I feel happy to know that my thread contributed to the spotting of an error never before found (discussed here). Not that I'm happy that GRRM made a mistake, but either way it's a notable discovery. Kudos!

That was all @estermonty python with that great find.

I asked about this in the Small Questions thread towards the bottom of page 79 if anyone is interested to see some of the responses. 

[Bironic]

22 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

You're right but to a lesser degree. As I mentioned earlier in this post, it's hard to evaluate given our current views on what's right and wrong. I think when we do put ourselves into a mindset of someone in this world, we can still see BW as a psychopath more so than others. Others will kill their enemies or maybe even their friends to get ahead. BW murders his cousin.

If he suggested killing Borrells this would be a fair comparison.

He also declares he will be lord twice, something that would require the other 30 something family members to die, including LW whom he was speaking to both times.

All good examples. You're right though, a lot of people in asoiaf would be viewed in todays terms as having psychopathic tendencies in asoiaf. I think these are all significantly more minor than BW with a couple exceptions, the Lannisters and Bronn being the main ones. Even so, when we adopt the mindset of a person in asoiaf, I think we still see BW as the most psychopathic.

Very true, but to be fair psycho and sociopath aren't DSM. The problem is I'm looking for words to describe BW and using the best ones I have found. I'd rather people evaluate BW labels aside. The wording may not be perfect, but it should be good enough to allow you to form your own opinion of BW.

I completely agree with the last statement. And I'll respond to the other thread soon to discuss Theon's hunt further. It's a good topic! As far as socio vs psychopath, idk, I think a lot of that is a misconception about what psychopath actually means.

Godric borell seems to be a rather ruthless guy, a sisterman after all. If he was in the Freys skin he would have probably said something similar.

BW is also quite young so all the guys in front of him in the line of succession can die of old age, sickness, war, mishaps, etc. And we have to see that BW is a 9 year old kid: all nine year old kids from noble houses dream to become lords or famous knights one day. Jon Snow once said that he is the lord of winterfell in a game with Robb. He never meant for robb to die. Even though he admits that he wanted WF.

I am also unsure if we should apply medical terms that are usually used on adults for 9 year old kids. If BW is the same in 20 years, i would reconsider my opinion.

BW the most psychopathic person in ASOIAF seriously? so Ramsay Bolton, Gregor Clegane, Littlefinger, Euron Greyjoy, Aerys, Vargo Hoat, Cersei Lannister are all just tragically misunderstood people who are a little rough around the edges?

[Aegon VII]

6 hours ago, Bironic said:

Godric borell seems to be a rather ruthless guy, a sisterman after all. If he was in the Freys skin he would have probably said something similar.

That's a complete conjecture and a pretty awful one at that. I've already conceited that many characters in the woiaf would be considered as having pscyhopathic tendencies based on today's terminology, that's not the issue. Even when we adopt a mindset from a person in this environment, BW's actions and statements stand out. If you can't see how a 9 year old butchering his cousin like a hog and then lying about it calm as ice is psychopathic than I don't care to try convincing you. If you don't agree that BW killed LW that's fine, but my analysis treats it as fact. If you don't than we're not going to arrive at the same conclusions.

6 hours ago, Bironic said:

BW is also quite young so all the guys in front of him in the line of succession can die of old age, sickness, war, mishaps, etc. And we have to see that BW is a 9 year old kid: all nine year old kids from noble houses dream to become lords or famous knights one day. Jon Snow once said that he is the lord of winterfell in a game with Robb. He never meant for robb to die. Even though he admits that he wanted WF.

 Fair point but it's really not the same at all when kids are playing games our sparring in the yard and say they are this lord or that dragonknight. It was discussed on the last thread that otherfromanothermother had going. BW declares these statements while completely calm and at completely inappropriate times. Not when playing a game in which boasting is natural. I feel confident the average reader sees the difference, especially when we look at everything else supporting BW having psychopathic tendencies.

6 hours ago, Bironic said:

I am also unsure if we should apply medical terms that are usually used on adults for 9 year old kids. If BW is the same in 20 years, i would reconsider my opinion.

It seems your entire issue is with the terms themselves. I have no attachment to the grammar I used. If you would like to examine all the text I wrote in blue and come up with better words for what it supports be my guest. I couldn't do any better than psycho/socipathic tendencies, so here we are.

6 hours ago, Bironic said:

BW the most psychopathic person in ASOIAF seriously? so Ramsay Bolton, Gregor Clegane, Littlefinger, Euron Greyjoy, Aerys, Vargo Hoat, Cersei Lannister are all just tragically misunderstood people who are a little rough around the edges?

I assume you're referring to my last response to you when I said"

"All good examples. You're right though, a lot of people in asoiaf would be viewed in todays terms as having psychopathic tendencies in asoiaf. I think these are all significantly more minor than BW with a couple exceptions, the Lannisters and Bronn being the main ones. Even so, when we adopt the mindset of a person in asoiaf, I think we still see BW as the most psychopathic."

This was in response to examples you gave (I've bolded some points here). I was saying of the examples you gave BW was the most psychopathic. Even then I said with a couple exceptions, the Lannisters and Bronn. So you have turned my qualified statement of "BW is more psychopathic than 5-6 of the people you mentioned" into "BW is the most psychopathic character in asoiaf". This is my fault so let me clarify, I meant more than the people you listed not everyone. I have no interest in having a "who is the most pscyopathic" conversation.

If you haven't already please read my response in which I reference WebMD. Pschopathic tendencies is exactly what BW exhibits. This should be obvious from BW killing LW and does not require my analysis. My analysis supports the theory that these tendencies in conjunction with his ability and desire to be lord give BW an excellent chance of actually becoming lord of the crossing.

 

[Roose on the Loose]

Here's how I see BW becoming Lord of the Crossing:  Forces loyal to Stark are inevitably going to hang every Frey connected to the RW and that's a lot of Freys.  The only living Frey known to be wholly innocent of the RW is BW.  As long as the new order clings to ancient blood rites as a sacred value, I like his odds.

[Neolaina]

On 2016-12-31 at 6:58 PM, Aegon VII said:

[Mentions another misuse of BW versus LW in my post.]

Edited my original post. Again. Ugh. What a mess. Good catch, too, especially since in that instance, the mistake meant I was taking the opposite side. xD

[Roose on the Loose]

At least a few characters can be seen as Claudius figures.  Claudius was a Roman emperor who everybody underestimated until he was Emperor and all his rivals were dead. I would credit BW with just such a strategy.  Other Claudius figures may include Bronn and LF.