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Tywin's reaction to The Purple Wedding


Ser Snowflake

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Tywin Lannister is the human embodiment of the phrase, "a Lannister always pays his debts."

Tywin's resume for revenge is pretty impressive. He annhiliated the Reynes and Tarbecks for disrespecting his weak father, he ravaged the riverlands to pay back Cat for kidnapping Tyrion, he orchestrated the red wedding to pay back Robb for capturing his son and heir, Jaime, and he had Elia murdered to pay back Elia for marrying Rhaegar, a match he sought for Cersei. 

 

We we all knew that Tywin loathed Tyrion and probably hated Joffrey as well, but would a man like Tywin simply accept the story that Tyrion and Sansa poisoned Joffrey? The results of the purple wedding would have been like a 3 birds with one stone kind of thing, A. Joffrey dies, B. Tyrion gets blamed for it and subsequently is killed for it, and C. Tommen ascends to the crown. I'm sure that Tywin was quite happy with the results of the purple wedding, but would he allow another family to get away with murdering the king.  Surely he knew that's the list of people who wanted Joffrey dead was as long as the wall. If Tywin simply wanted Tyrion dead.......he could have easily had Tyrion killed after the blackwater battle and simply told the world that his imp son had died from his injuries.

 

im interested in what you guys think. Did Tywin really believe that the imp poisoned the king, or was he simply just happy with results of the purple wedding and didn't care who did it? 

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He's a practical man also.  The realm is still at war at the time of the purple wedding.  Even if he assumed the Tyrells were responsible he has no proof, and couldn't really act on it even if he did.  The Tyrells have the most manpower in the city and out of it, and the realm needed a new king and queen.

There is also Cersei's reaction.  Keeping her from doing anything stupid by punishing Tyrion is beneficial.  The only downside is Sansa.  Sansa's vanishing was definitely suspicious and there is no way Tywin would not have looked for her.  If she had not vanished it would have been a downside that may have made the Tyrells seem more guilty as I'm sure Mace would have formally proposed the match between Sansa and Willas.

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Tywin Lannister was no fan of Joffrey. He didn't like that he was strong willed and petulant, and refused counsel and made consistent errors as King. I doubt that even Tywin didn't like the idea of having Tommen on the throne, so when Joffrey kicked the bucket, it was the perfect opportunity that he had to play carefully.  

Tywin was no fool, it must have crossed his mind more than once of that certain list 'longer than the wall'. Oberyn Martell for instance. A famous user of poison and has a known 'grudge' against Lannisters. But, the Martells have Myrcella, and starting a war with Dorne would destroy the realm with winter on its way, and Stannis still fighting. 

The Tyrells are new to their cause, and rival house Lannister in wealth, and they're the new darlings of King's Landing. They're too well liked and they need the Tyrells to finish the war, and keep Tommen on his throne.  

I think that Tywin just went with what was most beneficial to him. Joffrey is dead, Tommen on the throne, Tyrion sentenced to death, he keeps the Tyrells and Martells, and planned to marry Cersei off again to strengthen the houses, and Tommen will marry Margery. It was too good to pass up to make claims about who really killed Joffrey.

Plus Sansa having fled King's Landing gives more weight to the story he wanted.  

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There were perfectly good reasons to believe that Tyrion did it, and maybe Snsa too.  He had made threats to both Tyrion and Cersei, and had assaulted Joffrey as well.  His disdain for Joffrey was well known. Also, he was married to Sansa, whose ill treatment by Joffrey was also no secret, giving her ample motive for killing him.  He could have thought that Tyrion did it to please Sansa so she would have sex with him.  In fact, if it were not that I was privy to the thoughts of both Tyrion and Sansa, I  would probably believe them to be guilty.  Littlefinger did an excellent frame-up and Tyrion had given him plenty to work with.   He was the obvious suspect, so nobody looked any deeper.

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The evidence is pretty damning. Tyrion had means (poisons), motive (the hatred between the two was beyond well known) and opportunity (he served the wine). Also, a whole load of witnesses saw him pour the wine away, and Lady Merryweather claimed she saw him drop the poison in. If I was a juror I’d probably convict him, particularly if I had a prejudice against all little people, which everyone in Westros seems to, and I’d been hearing from all sources for quite some time that the accused was a vile, conniving twisted little monkey demon.  

Since we know Tyrion, and see things from his perspective, we know he didn’t do it. The only people who seem to be sceptical are people who know and admire him – Jaime and Balon Swann. Even Kevan and Podd think he’s guilty. The Viper is sceptical, but I don’t think he particularly cares anyway, and only wants a shot at the Mountain.

I think Tyrion was both an obvious suspect and convenient. People, even clever people like Tywin, are more likely to believe something if they have an interest in doing so.

On the other hand, it may well be that Tywin suspected Tyrell involvement, but decided to take the opportunity to dispose of Tyrion, then go after the Tyrells at a later date of his own choosing. He may also have suspected that Tyrion was in on it with the Tyrells. Cersei thought so, and while Tywin is nowhere near as paranoid as her, he could have well suspected that there were more people involved.

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21 hours ago, The Pimp that was Promised said:

Tywin Lannister is the human embodiment of the phrase, "a Lannister always pays his debts."

Tywin's resume for revenge is pretty impressive. He annhiliated the Reynes and Tarbecks for disrespecting his weak father, he ravaged the riverlands to pay back Cat for kidnapping Tyrion, he orchestrated the red wedding to pay back Robb for capturing his son and heir, Jaime, and he had Elia murdered to pay back Elia for marrying Rhaegar, a match he sought for Cersei. 

We we all knew that Tywin loathed Tyrion and probably hated Joffrey as well, but would a man like Tywin simply accept the story that Tyrion and Sansa poisoned Joffrey? The results of the purple wedding would have been like a 3 birds with one stone kind of thing, A. Joffrey dies, B. Tyrion gets blamed for it and subsequently is killed for it, and C. Tommen ascends to the crown. I'm sure that Tywin was quite happy with the results of the purple wedding, but would he allow another family to get away with murdering the king.  Surely he knew that's the list of people who wanted Joffrey dead was as long as the wall. If Tywin simply wanted Tyrion dead.......he could have easily had Tyrion killed after the blackwater battle and simply told the world that his imp son had died from his injuries.

im interested in what you guys think. Did Tywin really believe that the imp poisoned the king, or was he simply just happy with results of the purple wedding and didn't care who did it? 

This is one of my favorite mysteries of the series: Did Tywin want Joffrey dead and did he play a part in the murder?

I'm not entirely convinced that Tywin loathed Tyrion. He saw Tyrion do well in surviving his "trial" at the Eyrie, in creating an alliance with the mountain clans and in serving as acting Hand of the King (including building a defense of King's Landing) while Tywin was still out in the field. Tyrion had even done well as a teenager when he cleaned up the sewer system at Casterly Rock. Tywin was apparently irritated with Tryion's drinking and carrying on with prostitutes, did not approve of his marriage to Tysha, and he definitely wished that Tyrion had not been born a little person and a person with "foolish" instincts.

On the other hand, he saw Tyrion as a useful Lannister sperm donor in the marriage to Sansa Stark, but Tyrion did not obey Tywin's order to consummate that marriage. Because of the apparent dead end of Tyrion's marriage, Tywin may have come to believe that Tyrion was no longer useful at court. He might have wanted a Lannister man at the Night's Watch and saw the trial and conviction of Tyrion as a way to get him sent to the Wall.

Alternatively, Tywin may have thought that finding and exposing the "real" murderers of Joffrey would be an easier investigation if the court was focused on Tyrion as the accused murderer. He may have been allowing the Tyrion trial to go forward so he could search for reliable information about whodunit.

Yet another possibility is that Tywin masterminded the murder of Joffrey, and wanted to make sure that Tyrion was found guilty so no one would suspect grandpa Tywin of doing the deed.

Lately, I've been thinking that Joffrey's death may have been a sort of "Murder on the Orient Express" scenario, with many people wanting his death and separately or in small alliances working to achieve it. Maybe one of those plots was successful but other plotters don't realize that their own plot never came to fruition. Tywin would have wanted to know who did it, but I'm not sure he cared who was found guilty of the crime. He had such confidence in his ability to manipulate the outcomes at the court that he was willing to allow things to play out until he was ready to step in again and spare Tyrion's life (probably with the excuse that Tommen did not want to be seen as a kinslayer).

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1 hour ago, Seams said:

This is one of my favorite mysteries of the series: Did Tywin want Joffrey dead and did he play a part in the murder?

I'm not entirely convinced that Tywin loathed Tyrion. He saw Tyrion do well in surviving his "trial" at the Eyrie, in creating an alliance with the mountain clans and in serving as acting Hand of the King (including building a defense of King's Landing) while Tywin was still out in the field. Tyrion had even done well as a teenager when he cleaned up the sewer system at Casterly Rock. Tywin was apparently irritated with Tryion's drinking and carrying on with prostitutes, did not approve of his marriage to Tysha, and he definitely wished that Tyrion had not been born a little person and a person with "foolish" instincts.

On the other hand, he saw Tyrion as a useful Lannister sperm donor in the marriage to Sansa Stark, but Tyrion did not obey Tywin's order to consummate that marriage. Because of the apparent dead end of Tyrion's marriage, Tywin may have come to believe that Tyrion was no longer useful at court. He might have wanted a Lannister man at the Night's Watch and saw the trial and conviction of Tyrion as a way to get him sent to the Wall.

Alternatively, Tywin may have thought that finding and exposing the "real" murderers of Joffrey would be an easier investigation if the court was focused on Tyrion as the accused murderer. He may have been allowing the Tyrion trial to go forward so he could search for reliable information about whodunit.

Yet another possibility is that Tywin masterminded the murder of Joffrey, and wanted to make sure that Tyrion was found guilty so no one would suspect grandpa Tywin of doing the deed.

Lately, I've been thinking that Joffrey's death may have been a sort of "Murder on the Orient Express" scenario, with many people wanting his death and separately or in small alliances working to achieve it. Maybe one of those plots was successful but other plotters don't realize that their own plot never came to fruition. Tywin would have wanted to know who did it, but I'm not sure he cared who was found guilty of the crime. He had such confidence in his ability to manipulate the outcomes at the court that he was willing to allow things to play out until he was ready to step in again and spare Tyrion's life (probably with the excuse that Tommen did not want to be seen as a kinslayer).

The fact that Shae was found in Tywin's bed is what convinced me that Tywin hated Tyrion. It's true that he would use Tyrion when it suited his needs, but he clearly favored his taller offspring.

i offer wonder about the infallibility of Tywin Lannister. Did he really not know that his two oldest children were lovers? And that they had three kids?

Did Tywin really not know that's Tyrion made a perfect Patsy, and that the "trial" was a sham?

Tyrion nevertheless asked to be Joffrey's cupbearer, and in fact he had to be ordered to do so. So Tywin believed that Tyrion had the poison and was just waiting on Joffrey to ask him to the pour the wine? As I remember Sansa and Tyrion was nowhere near Joffrey on the dais.

 

My guess is that Tywin didn't totally buy into the Tyrion murdered his nephew theory and only went along with it for expediency sake.  I  doubt that he would let the Tyrells off the hook if he had even a suspicion that they did it.  Especially after hearing about the Willa-Sansa plot. Maybe he did know, and was killed before he could pay the debt.  

 

One doesnt rise to become the greatest Hand of the King of his generation by being totally in the dark. Twin probably had contacts in Kings Landing from his King Aerys days, and his spy network should of even rivaled The Spider's.

 

i would have loved seeing Tywin trying to destroy the Tyrells. Unlike the Reynes and Tarbecks....the Tyrells were just as wealthy and had the backing of  all the major houses of the largest southern kingdom.  

 

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Relieved. It was very unlikely he would've allowed Joffrey to survive to adulthood, especially when there was a far more malleable alternative just waiting in the wings. Joffrey dying was one less thing he would have to deal with down the line.

The fact that he could use that event to get rid of Tyrion was just icing.

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Tywin was pragmatic.  I think many others here are correct when they say he simply decided it would be the best if he let whoever framed Tyrion continue with this nonsense because it rid him of his two biggest embarrassments to the family; Joff and Tyrion.

Joff was marked for death by A LOT of people.  I think he would have eventually been killed by Loras, if not by Dorne or some other House that he would eventually insult.  Hell, I think Tywin would have easily found a way for him to be marked for death, if he had to.

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I do not buy Tywin's implication in Joffrey's death. Tywin was focused on securing the line of Lannisters. The number of possible heirs was growing thin, with the loss of one of Kevin's children (Willem Lannister), Lance being hurt seriously, Tyrek Lannister's disappearance.

Tywin was no fool to put all his hope for the continuation of the Lannister lineage on just Tommen and Martyn Lannister.

Before no child was born to Joffrey and Margaery, I do not think he would have even considered any harm to Joffrey. Even for Tyrion, whom he despised, he had but one priority: that he gets Sansa with child. He had to change his plans with Tyrion though, due to the pressure from Cersei after the purple wedding.

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Tywin hated Tyrion, and so found it easy to believe that he was guilty -- but quite apart from that, the scenario is set up so that he looks very guilty.  A lot of readers struggle with this and view the accusations against Tyrion as an obvious frame-up that Tywin must have needed some special motivation for going along with, but this just isn't supported by the text.  Hence, you have characters like Kevan, who like Tyrion, who nevertheless come to believe he's guilty.  Almost nobody believes he's innocent.

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I don't think  Tywin believed Tyrion killed Joff nor do I believe Tywin was involved in the plot.  Had it not been for the unfortunate, unforeseeable circumstances which led to Tyrion being Joff's cupbearer, I'm not sure if even Cersie would have accused Tyrion.  Tywin had his hand forced to back Cersie's accusation, he couldn't just ignore it.

Had Tyrion not been anywhere near Joff, then the blame would have been placed on the servers.  I don't think anyone would have blamed the Tyrells since Margery would have been drinking out of the same cup.  The servers would have been questioned and tortured and eventually Tywin would have laid the blame on someone else, probably Stannis.

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Tywin was not an idiot. With the red viper looming around and Joffrey's cruelty and craven stories spreading like wildfire, he knew that the boy was probably killed by either Martells or Tyrells? However what could he do. An invasion of Dorne would have ended in tears and the Lannisters needed the Tyrells desperately. So he turned a challenge into an opportunity

a- It provided him with a young and kind king whom he could control
b- Joffrey's death gave Tywin the opportunity to free Jamie from KG duties. Just as old Selmy was dismissed for allowing Robert to die, an amputated Jamie could be dismissed for allowing Joffrey to die.
c- It got rid of Tyrion

I don't think that Sansa would have lost her head if she ended up caught. She's far too precious for Tywin to allow it. I suspect that she would have ended up marrying Jamie with Tyrion being shipped off to the NW 

 

 

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Heck, some folks round here suspect Tywin was in on it. He was fixing to give Joffrey a sharp lesson, after all. I doubt it, though. Joffrey was his ticket to rule, and the greater glory of his house. I suspect Tywin believed that he could still bring the boy to heel before the end of his regency. Joffrey's assassination weakened the perception of the strength of House Baratheon-Lannister, at least to some degree, and the apparent kinslaying brought shame to House Lannister. Still, Tommen's succession made things simpler. 

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3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Heck, some folks round here suspect Tywin was in on it. He was fixing to give Joffrey a sharp lesson, after all. I doubt it, though. Joffrey was his ticket to rule, and the greater glory of his house. I suspect Tywin believed that he could still bring the boy to heel before the end of his regency. Joffrey's assassination weakened the perception of the strength of House Baratheon-Lannister, at least to some degree, and the apparent kinslaying brought shame to House Lannister. Still, Tommen's succession made things simpler. 

On paper, things looked to become simpler. The #1 ingredient of Kingslayer soup was eliminated, yes. But Joffrey's death did not happen in a vacuum. Other event resulted from the king's death: Tyrion's trial, Oberyn's death, Tywin's death, Cersei seizing power. And once Cersei gained the crown's power, things got messy very quickly in KL.

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I don't know why it's assumed that Tywin wouldn't believe Tyrion was guilty. Tywin has a very low opinion of Tyrion:

You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning.

(Incidentally, in that same scene Tywin is clearly shocked that Tyrion would have threatened a member of his own family, and it can be inferred that he's concerned about Tyrion's loyalty to his blood. And then Tyrion says this:

You were the one who taught me that a good threat is often more telling than a blow. Not that Joffrey hasn't tempted me sore a few hundred times. If you're so anxious to whip people, start with him. But Tommen . . . why would I harm Tommen? He's a good lad, and mine own blood.

In other words, Tyrion is saying he would never hurt Tommen, but he might hurt Joffrey.)

Consider also Tywin's view of the world, his personality. If someone made fun of Tywin like Joffrey did to Tyrion - at Tyrion's wedding, at Joffrey's wedding day gift-fest, at Joffrey's wedding - then Tywin would feel a very strong urge to kill that person. It's probably very easy to believe that someone else might feel the same way, especially his own son.

Tywin probably just thinks Tyrion wasn't clever enough to get away with it, or was conspiring with and subsequently betrayed by Sansa.

Or, maybe not. I don't know. But bear in mind, it's only in the show where anybody thinks it's ridiculous that Tyrion would do this. In the books, even Jaime has to ask - and believes it when he's lied to.

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3 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Or, maybe not. I don't know. But bear in mind, it's only in the show where anybody thinks it's ridiculous that Tyrion would do this. In the books, even Jaime has to ask - and believes it when he's lied to.

True, earlier Jaime also speculates that Tyrion might have done it out of revenge for getting mixed up in the dagger business. 

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2 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

True, earlier Jaime also speculates that Tyrion might have done it out of revenge for getting mixed up in the dagger business. 

There is a reason so much accusation was thrown at Tyrion. He had plenty of 1) means and 2) motivation to see the golden bastard removed from the mortal realm. The 3) opportunity was also there while serving as cupbearer during the wedding feast. That makes Tyrion 3 for 3 in terms of being a suspect in Joffrey's murder. And of course I do not think any other suspect was considered, apart from Sansa and Dontos (and they are nowhere to be found).

Those that suspect Tyrion of the murder would not need to look hard that points to him as a suspect, but evidence that proves his guilt, aside from the very false testimonies given at his trial, would be much harder to come by. Conveniently, the trial was not held in a society where a balanced judicial system exists, and reasonable doubt has no real bearing on the trial's outcome. If the tribunal judges, two of which were connected as family to the victim (conflict on interest much?), want Tyrion to be guilty, he will be "guilty".

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On 1/3/2017 at 2:44 PM, Chris Mormont said:

I don't think  Tywin believed Tyrion killed Joff nor do I believe Tywin was involved in the plot.  Had it not been for the unfortunate, unforeseeable circumstances which led to Tyrion being Joff's cupbearer, I'm not sure if even Cersie would have accused Tyrion.  Tywin had his hand forced to back Cersie's accusation, he couldn't just ignore it.

Had Tyrion not been anywhere near Joff, then the blame would have been placed on the servers.  I don't think anyone would have blamed the Tyrells since Margery would have been drinking out of the same cup.  The servers would have been questioned and tortured and eventually Tywin would have laid the blame on someone else, probably Stannis.

Littlefinger deliberately arranged things to try to provoke a fight between Tyrion and Joffrey (which worked probably unreasonably well, but there you go, it's fiction), and beyond that, Sansa's escape would have incriminated here, at a minimum, and probably cast suspicion on Tyrion too, since he was married to her and Sansa has no obvious resources of her own.

On 1/3/2017 at 3:11 PM, devilish said:

Tywin was not an idiot. With the red viper looming around and Joffrey's cruelty and craven stories spreading like wildfire, he knew that the boy was probably killed by either Martells or Tyrells? However what could he do. An invasion of Dorne would have ended in tears and the Lannisters needed the Tyrells desperately.

There's no basis for that in the text.  Tywin hates Tyrion, and everybody in the books believes he's guilty.  Tywin is not an all-knowing genius, he's actually quite spiteful and short-sighted in many ways.  And if Tywin really believed that one of his allies orchestrated the murder, that represents an existential threat to his house, it's not something he can ignore.

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I don't think that Sansa would have lost her head if she ended up caught. She's far too precious for Tywin to allow it. I suspect that she would have ended up marrying Jamie with Tyrion being shipped off to the NW

If Sansa had been caught she would be believed to be a regicide.  The regime would not be able to spare her life even if they wanted to, let alone marry her to Jaime.

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