Tywin's reaction to The Purple Wedding

[Lord Varys]

The fact that Tywin didn't visit Tyrion in his cell and that Kevan also seemed to believe that Tyrion was guilty effectively confirms that Tywin, too, thought Tyrion was guilty. Why shouldn't he?

[John Suburbs]

Tywin doesn't decide on courses of action based on love or hate, but on what is necessary in order to enhance the power and influence of his house. Did he hate Tyrion and/or Joffrey? Sure, although I would describe it more as loathing than hatred. He doesn't appear to bear a whole lot of fondness for Jaime and Cersei either.

In the final calculus, both Tyrion and Joffrey were useful to his pursuit of power, and they were both family -- so I seriously doubt that he would either wish or actively plot to kill either of them. If his words with a crossbow bolt aimed at his guts are any indication, he still had no intention of executing Tyrion even after his conviction, and I utterly reject the notion Tywin's idea of a "sharp lesson" is to kill the most politically powerful member of his family, even if that title simply falls to another grandson. Tommen, after all, is his last link to the Iron Throne. If something happens to him, it legally goes to Stannis.

So Tywin's reaction to the PW is what we would expect: shock and horror that someone would assault House Lannister in this way, followed by cold calculation as to what to do next. That logically led him to broker another marriage between Lannister and Tyrell and gain a public conviction for the murder of his grandson. If he harbored any doubts as to Tyrion's guilt after that, he has ways of dealing with them quietly.

[Ser Snowflake]

I'm not sure, but I don't remember Tywin visiting Tyrion after the Blackwater either. He seemed to grudgingly accept the fact that Tyrion had aptitude to do what needed to be done for House Lannister, but on a personal level, he loathed him.

 

If you look at the "evidence" of Tyrion's guilt closely, his action at the purple wedding makes no sense. Initially, he was seated quite a bit apart from the king, and was only Joffrey's cupbearer because the king suggested it on a whim. How could have Tyrion planned for that to happen?

 

And then there is the curious fact that Tyrion made no attempt to run after the death of the king. Why would he not run, if he really killed the king? Wouldn't he have fled with Sansa? Even those who hated Tyrion, would agree that he was an intelligent Imp. Tyrion's actions during and after Joffrey's death, doesn't seem to be that of a person who just committed regicide.  

 

I wonder what would have happened if Tyrion would have won his trial by combat. Would Tywin had continued to look for the killer? 

[Colonel Green]

1 hour ago, The Pimp that was Promised said:

And then there is the curious fact that Tyrion made no attempt to run after the death of the king. Why would he not run, if he really killed the king? Wouldn't he have fled with Sansa? Even those who hated Tyrion, would agree that he was an intelligent Imp. Tyrion's actions during and after Joffrey's death, doesn't seem to be that of a person who just committed regicide.  

Maybe he couldn't get away in time.

In general, "I'm too smart to do something that dumb" isn't a very good defense, because smart people do dumb stuff all the time.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Tywin doesn't decide on courses of action based on love or hate, but on what is necessary in order to enhance the power and influence of his house.

What book are you reading? Tywin's always motivated by hate and revenge, he just dresses it up as pragmatic self-interest.

[Ser Snowflake]

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

Maybe he couldn't get away in time.

In general, "I'm too smart to do something that dumb" isn't a very good defense, because smart people do dumb stuff all the time.

Tyrion was leisurely examining the goblet Joffrey dropped before he died. That's hardly the act of a man who just killed his king. If anything, Tyrion would have been as far away from the goblet as he could.  

John Wilkes Booth fled as soon as he killed Lincoln because he was guilty. That's a normal human reaction.

 It take cajones the size of Hodor's head to kill the most powerful person in the 7Ks, linger as the king is dying, and even have the gall to pick up the goblet, which you just poured for him.

 Tyrion would have been smart enough to flee with his wife. It wasn't like he didn't have the opportunity.....everybody's eyes was on the king. That's how Sansa got away so easy.

I guess people could use he was drunk as an excuse....but  the imp getting caught that easy for a crime as enormous as regicide doesn't seem likely. I'm sure Varys never bought it for one second. Or Tywin.....for he knew that Tyrion wasn't a dummy. Why else would send his least favorite son to KL to set things to order in ACOK?

Tywin either didn't care who murdered his king (which I doubt), or he was secretly running a shadow investigation. In one of Cersei's chapters she recalled Tywin defeating a lesser lord with simply a look and Tyrion often described his father's strange eyes. If Tywin intimidated the lords of the 7K, imagine how he was with whores. Shae was caught in bed with Tywin. I'm sure he asked her about the PW and Tyrion's role in it. Shae doesn't seem to be wily enough to lie to a man like Tywin without him smelling the lie. 

Having Tyrion die for PW was just an added bonus. As far as I can recall...Tywin never let any slight against House Lannister go unpunished. A Lannister always pays his debts. 

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

What book are you reading? Tywin's always motivated by hate and revenge, he just dresses it up as pragmatic self-interest.

No, he's a cold calculator. It's all about expanding the power and influence of his house. In what way does he need to get revenge on Joffrey? For mouthing off at a council meeting?

[Lost Melnibonean]

46 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

No, he's a cold calculator. It's all about expanding the power and influence of his house. In what way does he need to get revenge on Joffrey? For mouthing off at a council meeting?

I agree completely, but he did suggest that he was going to teach the boy a sharp lesson. Still that's not revenge. He wanted to get Cersei out of Dodge so he could mold him. 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

45 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

No, he's a cold calculator. It's all about expanding the power and influence of his house. In what way does he need to get revenge on Joffrey? For mouthing off at a council meeting?

Hmm? He doesn't want revenge on Joffrey, nor does he take it.

But the Reynes and Tarbecks, Elia Martell and her children, the War of the Five Kings itself... Tywin styles himself as an aloof realpolitiker, but it's an overrated reputation in my opinion.

[Lost Melnibonean]

58 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Hmm? He doesn't want revenge on Joffrey, nor does he take it.

But the Reynes and Tarbecks, Elia Martell and her children, the War of the Five Kings itself... Tywin styles himself as an aloof realpolitiker, but it's an overrated reputation in my opinion.

It's not necessarily revenge. Those are examples of why Tywin is so feared. 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

2 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

It's not necessarily revenge. Those are examples of why Tywin is so feared. 

Sure, but it's motivated by petty vengeance. I suppose one's mileage may vary on that point, though.

[Rise]

1 hour ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Sure, but it's motivated by petty vengeance. I suppose one's mileage may vary on that point, though.

Well to be honest. Reyne and Tarbeck defiance had gone to far. Doing nothing would only cause more problems in future.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

56 minutes ago, Rise said:

Well to be honest. Reyne and Tarbeck defiance had gone to far. Doing nothing would only cause more problems in future.

There's a wide valley between "nothing" and "drowning everybody in the castle". Robert Baratheon didn't have Balon Greyjoy's whole family killed, he just made them surrender and then took a hostage. That's the acceptable way to do things.

Tywin could've even hanged certain of the Reynes and Tarbecks if he felt it necessary. His actual actions were unnecessarily cruel, from a realpolitik standpoint, and IMO were motivated by his anger and cruelty.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 12/30/2016 at 9:10 PM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

The evidence is pretty damning. Tyrion had means (poisons), motive (the hatred between the two was beyond well known) and opportunity (he served the wine). Also, a whole load of witnesses saw him pour the wine away, and Lady Merryweather claimed she saw him drop the poison in. If I was a juror I’d probably convict him, particularly if I had a prejudice against all little people, which everyone in Westros seems to, and I’d been hearing from all sources for quite some time that the accused was a vile, conniving twisted little monkey demon.  

Since we know Tyrion, and see things from his perspective, we know he didn’t do it. The only people who seem to be sceptical are people who know and admire him – Jaime and Balon Swann. Even Kevan and Podd think he’s guilty. The Viper is sceptical, but I don’t think he particularly cares anyway, and only wants a shot at the Mountain.

I think Tyrion was both an obvious suspect and convenient. People, even clever people like Tywin, are more likely to believe something if they have an interest in doing so.

On the other hand, it may well be that Tywin suspected Tyrell involvement, but decided to take the opportunity to dispose of Tyrion, then go after the Tyrells at a later date of his own choosing. He may also have suspected that Tyrion was in on it with the Tyrells. Cersei thought so, and while Tywin is nowhere near as paranoid as her, he could have well suspected that there were more people involved.

I agree with everything you wrote! I think either Tywin thinks Tyrion actually did it (or Sansa) or he suspects others involvement, but as the results are benificial to him, he just went with it. What you said about certain people's innocense or lack there of that we forget not everyone knows about (as we have their POV) is so true. It makes you wonder how Loras ever believed Brienne. We were there, but they were not. I suppose magic is more prelevent in their world, ....but still... And also, it helps show Bowen Marsh or other Night's Watchmen's motives for assanating Jon. They probably really believe they are doing what is necessary and right. Jon kind of avoids making himself look better. I think it is a big mistake. Distancing himself from his friends was foolish I think. It makes him look guilty of being a Wildling lover. Eddard kept Jory Cassel close (didn't save him...but...). I just think his personal feelings are mostly quite pleasant, but his public acts seem like he is a crazy wildling lover. Can you imagine if we had a president who started hiring a bunch of random people with no political experience left and right? We would be pretty distressed......wait......Donald....

[devilish]

On 04/01/2017 at 11:30 PM, Colonel Green said:

Littlefinger deliberately arranged things to try to provoke a fight between Tyrion and Joffrey (which worked probably unreasonably well, but there you go, it's fiction), and beyond that, Sansa's escape would have incriminated here, at a minimum, and probably cast suspicion on Tyrion too, since he was married to her and Sansa has no obvious resources of her own.

There's no basis for that in the text.  Tywin hates Tyrion, and everybody in the books believes he's guilty.  Tywin is not an all-knowing genius, he's actually quite spiteful and short-sighted in many ways.  And if Tywin really believed that one of his allies orchestrated the murder, that represents an existential threat to his house, it's not something he can ignore.

If Sansa had been caught she would be believed to be a regicide.  The regime would not be able to spare her life even if they wanted to, let alone marry her to Jaime.

How on earth have you decided that he was ignoring the issue? There's a massive difference between totally ignoring a problem and doing a reyne of castamere. The latter was something the Lannisters couldn't possibly do considering that they lacked the troops to invade the Reach or Dorne.

Tywin died too early to know what he was planning to do. What we do know is that

a- Joffrey's death was beneficial to Tywin. The boy was a mad king V2 and no one better then Tywin could acknowledge that. In Tommen, Tywin would have had a good king he could control and manipulate. This incident would also serve to get rid off Tyrion and possibly get Jamie back as heir

b- The 'fight' between Lannisters and the rest started long before the purple wedding. Loras becoming KG, Sansa marrying Tyrion instead of Willas, Oberyn Martell turning out in KL are clear testament to that. 

c- Tywin does have a softspot for cruelty but unlike his daughter he can be very patient about it. He suffered Aerys insolence for years. He also sat out throughout the entire rebellion only to pounce and do a reynes of Castamere over the Targs when the dragon was far too wounded to strike back. He did the same with Robert. He bankrolled his inefficiency, no questions asked. Meanwhile he surrounded the oaf with his men. No wonder why the stag went begging Ned to come to KL to help him rule and no wonder why the oaf stood silent when Jamie attacked Ned. The real king wasn't in KL but in CR. 

[devilish]

On 30/12/2016 at 0:10 PM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

The evidence is pretty damning. Tyrion had means (poisons), motive (the hatred between the two was beyond well known) and opportunity (he served the wine). Also, a whole load of witnesses saw him pour the wine away, and Lady Merryweather claimed she saw him drop the poison in. If I was a juror I’d probably convict him, particularly if I had a prejudice against all little people, which everyone in Westros seems to, and I’d been hearing from all sources for quite some time that the accused was a vile, conniving twisted little monkey demon.  

Since we know Tyrion, and see things from his perspective, we know he didn’t do it. The only people who seem to be sceptical are people who know and admire him – Jaime and Balon Swann. Even Kevan and Podd think he’s guilty. The Viper is sceptical, but I don’t think he particularly cares anyway, and only wants a shot at the Mountain.

I think Tyrion was both an obvious suspect and convenient. People, even clever people like Tywin, are more likely to believe something if they have an interest in doing so.

On the other hand, it may well be that Tywin suspected Tyrell involvement, but decided to take the opportunity to dispose of Tyrion, then go after the Tyrells at a later date of his own choosing. He may also have suspected that Tyrion was in on it with the Tyrells. Cersei thought so, and while Tywin is nowhere near as paranoid as her, he could have well suspected that there were more people involved.

There's a list of people who had the means, motive and opportunity to kill Joffrey. That include his own grandfather, the Tyrells, Oberyn, Stannis assassins, Kevan and a big chunk of the small council. Joffrey was a horrible king. He was evil, reckless and stupid. 

If Tywin wanted Joffrey dead then he would have done it when he still had some sort of power (ie as Hand). He would have simply fled the city before Stannis invasion and let the city to Joffrey's and later Stannis's mercy. His father would have, of course, been pissed off but what do you really expect from a drunken dwarf would you? Killing Joffrey when he had just married the second most powerful house in Westeros is stupid. Tywin may think that Tyrion is the root of all evil but surely he knows that he isn't stupid. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

3 hours ago, devilish said:

There's a list of people who had the means, motive and opportunity to kill Joffrey. That include his own grandfather, the Tyrells, Oberyn, Stannis assassins, Kevan and a big chunk of the small council.

Yes, but there's a whole host of other evidence, real and imagined, against Tyrion. 

[devilish]

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Yes, but there's a whole host of other evidence, real and imagined, against Tyrion. 

Every single person and family mentioned had motive, means and opportunity to kill Joffrey yet they weren't blame for it. Why not just say that the Lannisters couldn't afford another war and therefore they just picked the unconvenient and easiest target of them all? Ultimately Tywin had to tackle the imp problem one day or another.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

4 minutes ago, devilish said:

Every single person and family mentioned had motive, means and opportunity to kill Joffrey yet they weren't blame for it. Why not just say that the Lannisters couldn't afford another war and therefore they just picked the unconvenient and easiest target of them all? Ultimately Tywin had to tackle the imp problem one day or another.

Like I said, there were specific reasons why the evidence was worse against Tyrion, such as him having been seen to pour away the wine, that he had stolen poisons found in his bedchamber, that he was supposedly seen to drop something into the wine…and the entire narrative Cersei and her witnesses spun.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

Also, the one defence against murder, when there’s so much evidence stacked against you, surely can’t be “well every fucker in that room wanted that little bastard dead”.

I actually would love to see that defence used.