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Ser Snowflake

Tywin's reaction to The Purple Wedding

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On 1/4/2017 at 6:36 PM, Lord Varys said:

The fact that Tywin didn't visit Tyrion in his cell and that Kevan also seemed to believe that Tyrion was guilty effectively confirms that Tywin, too, thought Tyrion was guilty. Why shouldn't he?

Yeah? In my mind, if Tywin truly believed he was guilty, he'd have gone down and demanded an explanation, all the while cursing the little demon spawn dwarf. In my mind, the only reason NOT to go down to talk to him, is because you know he is NOT guilty. 

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On 1/4/2017 at 9:13 PM, The Pimp that was Promised said:

I wonder what would have happened if Tyrion would have won his trial by combat. Would Tywin had continued to look for the killer? 

 

Nah. I don't think anyone in Westeros, save maybe the commoners, truly believe that a trial by combat accurately represents the truth. Everyone can come up with a few stories in the past where a champion won a battle for a clearly guilty party. The trial by combat doesn't prove innocence or guilt. It only prescribes punishment or a lack thereof.

 

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I think everyone is kind of glossing over something here. The whole idea that Joff was a "Bad King" (or indeed, a new Mad King), and that Tommen was kind and gentle and would be a "Good King". While these sentiments are certainly supported by the texts, over and over, the reader must stop and think. 

 

For Tywin, is a "Good King" (a kind, gentle, merciful, dutiful king), a "Good Thing"? I opine that it is not. Assuming Tommen is good, why would he ever go along with his cruel, manipulative, reckless, merciless grandsire? Maybe for a time, while he's young. But, there is no way Tywin is happy about a "kind, merciful, soft" heir to the Lannister name, much less to the throne. 

 

I think that Joffrey, all his cruelties aside, is a much better candidate for Tywin-puppet, than Tommen would ever have been. Tywin didn't want Joff dead; he wanted Joff loyal, leal, subservient. He didn't want Tommen. He wanted Joff, just a Joff he could control. To be honest, once looking at it from that point of view, I think the much more interesting question is what exactly Tywin had in mind, when he was planning on teaching the boy a "sharp lesson".

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2 hours ago, HaeSuse said:

I think everyone is kind of glossing over something here. The whole idea that Joff was a "Bad King" (or indeed, a new Mad King), and that Tommen was kind and gentle and would be a "Good King". While these sentiments are certainly supported by the texts, over and over, the reader must stop and think. 

 

For Tywin, is a "Good King" (a kind, gentle, merciful, dutiful king), a "Good Thing"? I opine that it is not. Assuming Tommen is good, why would he ever go along with his cruel, manipulative, reckless, merciless grandsire? Maybe for a time, while he's young. But, there is no way Tywin is happy about a "kind, merciful, soft" heir to the Lannister name, much less to the throne. 

 

I think that Joffrey, all his cruelties aside, is a much better candidate for Tywin-puppet, than Tommen would ever have been. Tywin didn't want Joff dead; he wanted Joff loyal, leal, subservient. He didn't want Tommen. He wanted Joff, just a Joff he could control. To be honest, once looking at it from that point of view, I think the much more interesting question is what exactly Tywin had in mind, when he was planning on teaching the boy a "sharp lesson".

Tommen may be soft now, but he's still young. Cersei should have let Ser Loras or someone else train the boy.

He should have been sent away to squire while Robert and Joffrey were still living. Tywin may have been a cruel man....but at least he was smart. Joffrey had zero good qualities, he was neither brave nor smart. Robb or even Renly would have never left the Battle of the Blackwater during the middle of the fight. When Stannis retreated, the battle was already lost. Joffrey left while the battle was still up in the air, and his leaving caused his men to retreat and almost resulted in his forces getting routed before Grandpa Tywin could arrive and save the day.

To be honest, Tommen wasn't much better, but at least he wasn't cruel and stupid.  Joffrey would have undone every alliance Tyrion and Tywin so carefully made. Cersei and Robert ruined both of their sons. I think that Myrcella would have made a better puppet than both of her brothers.

I too wonder what Tywin meant about teaching his grandson a lesson. I don't think that Tywin would go so far as to kill his grandson.....but with Tywin it's hard to say. Keep in mind, this is the same man who had his men rape his son's wife and then forced his son to also rape her.

It's almost impossible to teach a king a lesson. If Joffrey ever gave the order to kill his grandfather, the kingsguard would be obliged to obey. Tywin may have been feared in KL, but Joffrey was the king.

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16 hours ago, The Pimp that was Promised said:

I too wonder what Tywin meant about teaching his grandson a lesson. I don't think that Tywin would go so far as to kill his grandson.....but with Tywin it's hard to say. Keep in mind, this is the same man who had his men rape his son's wife and then forced his son to also rape her.

It's almost impossible to teach a king a lesson. If Joffrey ever gave the order to kill his grandfather, the kingsguard would be obliged to obey. Tywin may have been feared in KL, but Joffrey was the king.

 

Well, that is the kind of lesson I was thinking of, only without the blame pointing at Tywin. Devise some scheme/plot that is not overt, that truly does make Joff think, but does not reveal the schemers/plotters. But something similar. Showing him that even a King, without support and love and fear (or at least 2 out of 3), can be knocked down from on high. People say Joff is stupid, but I don't buy it. Careless at times, reckless, angry, cruel, even evil. But the evidence supporting "Joff is stupid", to me, is no more than evidence that Joff is a child. Similar to people who call Sansa stupid. Not even remotely true. She's just a kid who we are seeing grow up. 

Joff would understand. If someone showed him that even in KL, even with a full KG, even surrounded by his family and the Tyrells, he is never completely safe, and must be more strategic, he would have learned that lesson. It wouldn't have solved his cruelty or his cowardice. But it would've turned him into a player, instead of just some spoiled, evil, brat boy king. I think. And, more to the point, it might've turned him into an imperfect, but very moldable, puppet king for Tywin.

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21 hours ago, HaeSuse said:

I think everyone is kind of glossing over something here. The whole idea that Joff was a "Bad King" (or indeed, a new Mad King), and that Tommen was kind and gentle and would be a "Good King". While these sentiments are certainly supported by the texts, over and over, the reader must stop and think. 

For Tywin, is a "Good King" (a kind, gentle, merciful, dutiful king), a "Good Thing"? I opine that it is not. Assuming Tommen is good, why would he ever go along with his cruel, manipulative, reckless, merciless grandsire? Maybe for a time, while he's young. But, there is no way Tywin is happy about a "kind, merciful, soft" heir to the Lannister name, much less to the throne. 

I think that Joffrey, all his cruelties aside, is a much better candidate for Tywin-puppet, than Tommen would ever have been. Tywin didn't want Joff dead; he wanted Joff loyal, leal, subservient. He didn't want Tommen. He wanted Joff, just a Joff he could control. To be honest, once looking at it from that point of view, I think the much more interesting question is what exactly Tywin had in mind, when he was planning on teaching the boy a "sharp lesson".

Tywin wants the king to listen to him, obviously, but he also wants a king to be able to carry on Tywin's legacy after Tywin himself isn't around anymore.

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1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

Tywin wants the king to listen to him, obviously, but he also wants a king to be able to carry on Tywin's legacy after Tywin himself isn't around anymore.

That's precisely my point. And who better? A soft spoken, cat loving, sweet, innocent septon of a cherub... or a sinister, cruel, conniving, brutal manipulator?

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11 minutes ago, HaeSuse said:

That's precisely my point. And who better? A soft spoken, cat loving, sweet, innocent septon of a cherub... or a sinister, cruel, conniving, brutal manipulator?

Joffrey is cruel and brutal, but he's certainly not conniving or a manipulator.  Joffrey's an idiot, and a coward besides, with no impulse control.

Tommen is more innocent, but he's just a kid.  He can be educated properly to be more in line with Tywin's idea of what a ruler should be.

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58 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

Joffrey is cruel and brutal, but he's certainly not conniving or a manipulator.  Joffrey's an idiot, and a coward besides, with no impulse control.

Tommen is more innocent, but he's just a kid.  He can be educated properly to be more in line with Tywin's idea of what a ruler should be.

Name anything Joff has done to make him idiotic, beyond what any other 13 year old boy or girl does (in the novels, or out). I mean, compare him to his peers in the books. Who else is on the cusp of teenage years? We need some apples to compare to these apples, eh? It's entirely unfair to compare Joffrey (or Tommen, for that matter) to Tywin. Just as it's unfair to compare Bran to Ned. So... who?

  • Sansa, for one. Has she shown herself to be more intelligent than Joff? Maybe a tiny bit? Who else? 
  • The Sand Snakes? I fail to see anything in their arcs that proves them demonstrably more intelligent than Joff.
  • Trystane Martell? Not enough info, but he's certainly more of a thinker.
  • Dany? At the beginning of the books, before LIFE shaped her, I'd say no. She was about as informed and intelligent as Sansa.
  • Some of the various Frey kids? Not a good example.

 

IMHO, Joff has not proved he is stupid. He has proved he is a child that is NOT beyond his years. That does NOT preclude him from coming into his own. I give to you as exhibit A, all human 13 year olds throughout history. Who is to say that Joff wouldn't have become harder, more intelligent, more clever, had his arc more resembled Dany's. Who is to say Sansa wouldn't have been just as capably sly as Margaery, had she been raised in the affluent, haute taute, Highgarden, as compared to the hard, cold, blue-collar Winterfell. Who is to say Dany would have fared any better than Sansa did, had she been dealt the same hand? 

 

I think it's entirely unfair to call him an idiot, and it stems more from that raw hatred GRRM has stoked in people about Joff, than it does from empirical evidence. To be honest, if anything, Joff could outhink Jon Snow on his feet, and Jon isn't a moron. He's probably reasonably described as "slow" (like Ned), but not stupid. And Joff is what, 5 years Jon's junior? 

 

I just don't see it.

 

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"The boy is thirteen. There is time yet." Lord Tywin paced to the window. That was unlike him; he was more upset than he wished to show. "He requires a sharp lesson."

I know its a minority who don't read the scene as it was clearly depicted (poison in chalice, Tyrion getting implicated partly due to bad luck, partly due to LF's machinations), and even smaller part think it was Tywin. And those who do usually consider the above quote as a proof though it is obviously the opposite. If Tywin had actually planned to kill his grandson he would never had mentioned that he intended to give him a "sharp lesson", he would had suffered in silence. And he definitely would not had done it during the most important celebration he had arranged in his life.

Personally I am of the mind that Tywin did think Tyrion did it, or he was forced into taking that position due to the pressure of the situation (mostly Cersei forcing the matter).

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1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

Tommen is more innocent, but he's just a kid.  He can be educated properly to be more in line with Tywin's idea of what a ruler should be.

And to respond to this... Tywin basically committed ruthless genocide (or House-a-cide) on the Tarbecks and Reynes. It wasn't required. He couldn't held the lands under his control, while keeping a puppet Tarbeck in Tarbeck Hall, and a puppet Reyne in Casamere. But, alas, "kill them all" was his credo. Tywin regularly uses The Mountain to do horrible, deplorable things, committing atrocious war crimes as his modus operandi. Tywin has effectively disinherited his own son. Tywin ordered the execution of the Targ kids. Tywin openly loathed his own father, who is described in precisely the same way Tommen is: Soft, amiable, gentle, kind. Tywin had all of his family's enemy's imprisoned and/or executed, with no mercy whatsoever. Aegon specifically chose Tywin for his ruthlessness. 

 

If anything, Joffrey is Tywin reincarnate (except with a silver spoon in his mouth, instead of a crumbling house around him), and Tommen is Tytos reincarnate. What did Tywin recriminate Cersei on? Joff's cruelty? His anger and spite? His stupidity? Nope. Just that Cersei wasn't controlling him. Joff is doing precisely what Tywin did. Trying to prove his house's dominance and power (thinking his house is Baratheon) via ruthless, merciless totalitarian control. His only flaw in all of that is that he thought his hand was stronger than it was, and underestimated  Renly, Stannis, and Robb. Whereas Tywin precisely calculated, and executed flawlessly.

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1 hour ago, HaeSuse said:

Name anything Joff has done to make him idiotic, beyond what any other 13 year old boy or girl does (in the novels, or out). I mean, compare him to his peers in the books. Who else is on the cusp of teenage years? We need some apples to compare to these apples, eh? It's entirely unfair to compare Joffrey (or Tommen, for that matter) to Tywin. Just as it's unfair to compare Bran to Ned. So... who?

  • Sansa, for one. Has she shown herself to be more intelligent than Joff? Maybe a tiny bit? Who else? 
  • The Sand Snakes? I fail to see anything in their arcs that proves them demonstrably more intelligent than Joff.
  • Trystane Martell? Not enough info, but he's certainly more of a thinker.
  • Dany? At the beginning of the books, before LIFE shaped her, I'd say no. She was about as informed and intelligent as Sansa.
  • Some of the various Frey kids? Not a good example.

 

IMHO, Joff has not proved he is stupid. He has proved he is a child that is NOT beyond his years. That does NOT preclude him from coming into his own. I give to you as exhibit A, all human 13 year olds throughout history. Who is to say that Joff wouldn't have become harder, more intelligent, more clever, had his arc more resembled Dany's. Who is to say Sansa wouldn't have been just as capably sly as Margaery, had she been raised in the affluent, haute taute, Highgarden, as compared to the hard, cold, blue-collar Winterfell. Who is to say Dany would have fared any better than Sansa did, had she been dealt the same hand? 

 

I think it's entirely unfair to call him an idiot, and it stems more from that raw hatred GRRM has stoked in people about Joff, than it does from empirical evidence. To be honest, if anything, Joff could outhink Jon Snow on his feet, and Jon isn't a moron. He's probably reasonably described as "slow" (like Ned), but not stupid. And Joff is what, 5 years Jon's junior? 

 

I just don't see it.

 

The attempt on Bran's life was stupid. What was the point of it? The fact that he tried to murder the Hand's cripple son in an egregious breach of guest right and stupid on one level.....and then the fact that he used a VS knife from his presumed father's armory is even more stupid. He could have used any common knife.

Killing Ned Stark was equally as stupid, and it almost cost Jaime his head and the Lannisters the throne. If it wasn't for Edmure's folly at the Stone Mill, KL would have fallen and Joffrey and Cersei would have lost their head. The war he started only worked out for the Lannisters due to the Baratheon brothers fighting each other instead of linking up with the King in the North.

His actions during the riot of KL was stupid as well....he did more to incite the mob than any other person. By the time the Battle of the Blackwater happened, most of the people of KL actively hated the boy king and would have opened the gates for Stannis....a man known for burning people alive and worshipping a foreign god. This is all because of Joff's stupidity and cruelty. 

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41 minutes ago, The Pimp that was Promised said:

The attempt on Bran's life was stupid. What was the point of it? The fact that he tried to murder the Hand's cripple son in an egregious breach of guest right and stupid on one level.....and then the fact that he used a VS knife from his presumed father's armory is even more stupid. He could have used any common knife.

Killing Ned Stark was equally as stupid, and it almost cost Jaime his head and the Lannisters the throne. If it wasn't for Edmure's folly at the Stone Mill, KL would have fallen and Joffrey and Cersei would have lost their head. The war he started only worked out for the Lannisters due to the Baratheon brothers fighting each other instead of linking up with the King in the North.

His actions during the riot of KL was stupid as well....he did more to incite the mob than any other person. By the time the Battle of the Blackwater happened, most of the people of KL actively hated the boy king and would have opened the gates for Stannis....a man known for burning people alive and worshipping a foreign god. This is all because of Joff's stupidity and cruelty. 

Aha! So, you are claiming then, that other 12-13 year olds in the realm would have KNOWN a valyrian steel dagger, and known not to use it? Joffs crime here is not stupidity, any more than anyone would gripe about any other kid in the realm not recognising Valyrian Steel? His crime is cruelty and misguided justice. And you are claiming the violation of guest right is "stupid"? His own grandfather, Tywin Lannister, supported the Red Wedding. So Joffrey tried to have someone killed, AND violated guest rights? And? That's kind of a hallmark of the realm. Those in power have had many people killed, and violated guest rights many times in their house's history.

And your next point, that it only worked out because of the Baratheons' infighting is exactly my point. He miscalculated, for sure. But he did exactly what Tywin did. Execute his leal lords for treason. 

 

History could've gone differently. Let's say Tywin shows up to destroy Castamere, but the North rallies and shows up and wipes out Tywin's army, and ends the Lannister line. Is Tywin now, posthumously, stupid? No. He would've just miscalculated. My point exactly. They both tried to be "strong king/lord", ruling through "power and fear". The ONLY difference is that Tywin won, and Joffrey lost.

 

 

And the common people don't give a darn that Joff might be stupid. Why would they? Cruelty is all they care about with Joff. 

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To further support my point, I present to everyone the following mental exercise:

 

2 alternate realms. 1 in which Joffrey isn't killed at the Purple Wedding, and reigns until old age. 1 in which Joff DOES die, but Tommen lives and reigns until old age. In both, Tywin lives another 30 years.

 

So... 5 years down the road, the North decides they still begrudge the Lannisters for their treatment of the Starks. Does Tywin want a soft King, who, though "moldable" is kind and gentle? Or does he want a hard King, who, though cruel and harsh, is moldable? 

Think of the choices Tywin has had to make. How many of them would a King Tommen approve of? I propose VERY few. He wouldn't approve of disinheriting Tyrion. He wouldn't approve of killing babies. He wouldn't approve of eliminating entire houses to save the Lannisters some face. He wouldn't approve of wildfyre. He wouldn't approve of deceit and guile. 

 

So what if Joff even is stupid? EVEN BETTER, for Tywin. Assuming he can get his hooks in him, the dumber the boy is, the better. The more cruel, the better (up until the point it gets him killed, of course). Tywin can teach Joff to exercise his more evil muscles in private, so that it won't ruin his image. etc etc etc

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23 minutes ago, HaeSuse said:

Aha! So, you are claiming then, that other 12-13 year olds in the realm would have KNOWN a valyrian steel dagger, and known not to use it? Joffs crime here is not stupidity, any more than anyone would gripe about any other kid in the realm not recognising Valyrian Steel? His crime is cruelty and misguided justice. And you are claiming the violation of guest right is "stupid"? His own grandfather, Tywin Lannister, supported the Red Wedding. So Joffrey tried to have someone killed, AND violated guest rights? And? That's kind of a hallmark of the realm. Those in power have had many people killed, and violated guest rights many times in their house's history.

And your next point, that it only worked out because of the Baratheons' infighting is exactly my point. He miscalculated, for sure. But he did exactly what Tywin did. Execute his leal lords for treason. 

 

History could've gone differently. Let's say Tywin shows up to destroy Castamere, but the North rallies and shows up and wipes out Tywin's army, and ends the Lannister line. Is Tywin now, posthumously, stupid? No. He would've just miscalculated. My point exactly. They both tried to be "strong king/lord", ruling through "power and fear". The ONLY difference is that Tywin won, and Joffrey lost.

 

 

And the common people don't give a darn that Joff might be stupid. Why would they? Cruelty is all they care about with Joff. 

Tywin specifically sent the Imp to KL specifically because of Joffrey's stupid decision to execute Lord Stark. Tywin loved Jaime and he advocated sending Stark to the wall because he knew that killing The Ned would most likely end up condemning Jaime to the same fate.

And Joffrey didn't just decide to have "someone killed". He tried to kill the son of the second most powerful man in the realm....for no reason. That is cruel and stupid. Tywin had a reason for the Red Wedding.....Robb was at war with House Lannister. Joffrey tried to kill a boy on his sick bed for no reason. 

Again what happened at Castamere was an act of war against a rebel lord. How can you compare that to Joffrey inciting a mob of starving small folk? At the time KL was about to be besieged by Stannis....a smart person would want to ensure the loyalty of the small folk, not give them every reason to go over to your enemies.

And the small folk do care if their lords and Kings are stupid because when the great lords go to war, it's the small folk who suffer the most. I would rather have someone smart enough not to incite a war, like how Joffrey did when he tried to kill Bran. If Summer hadn't  killed Joffrey's catspaw, and the man had talked....Robert would have probably killed Joffrey himself and the Starks would have been in their rights to kill Joffrey. Robert almost killed the boy when he found him cutting open a cat....I could only imagine what Robert's reaction would be if he found out his idiot son tried to kill his best friend's son.

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6 hours ago, Humble Maester said:

I know its a minority who don't read the scene as it was clearly depicted (poison in chalice, Tyrion getting implicated partly due to bad luck, partly due to LF's machinations), and even smaller part think it was Tywin. And those who do usually consider the above quote as a proof though it is obviously the opposite. If Tywin had actually planned to kill his grandson he would never had mentioned that he intended to give him a "sharp lesson", he would had suffered in silence. And he definitely would not had done it during the most important celebration he had arranged in his life.

Personally I am of the mind that Tywin did think Tyrion did it, or he was forced into taking that position due to the pressure of the situation (mostly Cersei forcing the matter).

Well put. 

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Sorry, busy lately

@Colonel GreenYou're arguing some ideas I never meant. I put the blame mostly at my door, I'll try  to be clearer.

Some have raised the interesting point of who took advantage from Joff's dead. Sticking to LF's terms, there are two wannabe players, actually powerful pieces: Tyrrells and Lannisters. The Tyrells seem to work as a team. While they let Mace think himself a star, the siblings act at unison, helped by their mother and directed by their granma. They didn't like Margaery to be wed to some kind of monster. On the Lannister side, Tywin holds the reins. He sorely has to accept that Cersei has spoiled Joff, and he can't be recovered, but Tommen can still be taught. Moreover, Joff wanted to act the king right away, while Tommen gave Tywin some years of full command, chiefly after getting rid of Cersei. So, both players win. They might have theirs differences, but they can also find some apaceof common interests: the removed Joff as they did Stannis.

Some argue that Tywin would never allow this, on the grounds of his House's pride. I concede it's a good objection but still I think Joff made more harm than good to the Lannisters. Facing the dilemma of maiming the rotten limb to save the body, what would Tywin do? My take is that, while it could be good for House Lannister, personal feelings prevailed. That is, Tyrion didn't lie when he said he'd killed Joff, even though it's pretty clear that he wasn't in the murdering plot: he pronounced Joff's death sentence when he dubbed him Aerys III immediately after he had humiliated Tywin in public.

All this leads us to the real player, the middleman, LF. Did he get a direct gain by killing Joff? Being clear, NO WAY. Instead, he prepared the murder because he was charged the task. Keep in mind that he was actually rewarded with all that Tyrion had offered him as a bait, his services to T&L can't be a doggone thing. In fact, he tells Sansa, at least partially. He recognizes that Joff suited him, but sometimes you have to do things to confuse your enemies. In fact, Joff would have created an unsustainable situation at KL, ending the T&L alliance, but LF had to make believe his "masters" that he was still their loyal and efficient "servant". He had NO reason to help the Tyrells remove Joff against Tywin's will. He'd be much better off letting the Tyrells on their own, and helping Tywin to find out who did it. As for taking Sansa away, he's sure to make up some other way to do it, it's LF, no jackanappes.

So,

if LF prepared the details of the murder

if LF didn't act on his own direct interest

if LF didn't help the Tyrells against Tywin,

forcibly LF was acting under command of T&L.

qed.

Eta. LF tells more. He comments that he thought Cersei would screw it, but not so quickly. It leaves untold that Joff would. On the contrary, once Joff's out, LF might guess that Cersei would try to find a culprit amongst Tyrion and the Tyrells, who were sitting together, but he didn't have the least clue to guess that Tyrion would kill Tywin, Kevan would leave, Cersei would prevail, sort of, and so on, even though the Kettleblacks were still helping Cersei to make her doom. In sum, LF worked against the IT and Joffrey was the worst king to be found, he had no personal interest in removing him, but all the opposite. But still he did it, why? Isn't it obvious?

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