The Long Night's Watch - the Undead Companions of the Last Hero

[chrisdaw]

Arya is the Last Hero, the Last Hero story and Mel's vision about Arya she thinks she got wrong are the same scenes. The dog is Sandor, Needle the snapping sword. One would assume it's Bran bidding her on this journey for whatever reason. The undead references will be greyscale, Garin's Curse, which Arya will eventually get as wights/others will not be able to or not care to track those with greyscale.

[LmL]

8 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@LmL lol cool we will drop the "classic" sword interpretation in favour of your "new" one. Sure. You guys were doubting the swords importance at times and I merely wanted to point the huge significance of it. Hey ho on we go though.

Lol, Macgregor, god bless you, you're missing the point entirely. 

- I agree with the classic interpretation to some extent, not arguing against it in any way

- the classic interpretation doesn't conflict with anything being suggested so far as I can tell

- I do not have a "new" interpretation, nor any hypothesis at all regarding this scene save for the mythical astronomy correlations I mentioned - I hadn't thought much about this scene until someone brought it up yesterday

- I mistakenly suggested a few comments ago that he blood might have signaled the rest of the Others to laugh, but this was incorrect and I said as much after you corrected me (thanks of course)

Essentially, what I am zeroing in one is what @ravenous reader pointed out - the sight of his blood seems to have elicted a change in behavior, which could, maybe, have something to do with the Others identifying him as mortal and not-a-zombie. This caused me to wonder why the lazy parry broke the sword as well. All I am saying to you is that we are all familiar with the idea that the Others moved in after recognizing his sword was not dragonsteel, and we don't need to debate it.  Instead I would like to explore the possibility that the blood was also a sign to the Others, in concert with the inferior sword, that's all. I don't have a hypothesis here to be on conflict with or not, I am simply wondering if there is something to this. This isn't an argument where I am trying to be right or prove someone wrong or defend a hypothesis. It's an exploration of a new idea. 

 

8 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

So you are thinking that the Others have been shadowing Royce with a view to approaching him to engage him in battle and inspect his blood to see if it is red and he is human and not some undead zombie like Coldhands?.

Something like that. 

8 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Im just trying to get a grasp on this. I mean they have been watching them all that ninth day. That means seeing him eat and everything, something Coldhands never does. And Royce has to eat.

And wouldnt watching him all day and just watching his general behaviour confirm this man was very much a living person?. I don't think they would have really needed to draw his blood to see if it bled red to check that if I'm honest.

We do not know how closely the Others were watching them, that is an assumption. Also, the Others have to hide by day, so if they were watching them, it would had to have been with some kind of magical farsight, and we have no idea if the Others can do that.

8 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Another thing I'm curious to ask. This was way back in the early nineties he wrote this stuff man, I mean he hadn't even created Bloodraven or decided he was going to be the Three Eyed Crow, all he knew back then was that the 3EC was going to be tied to the Targaryens, why should we assume that he had fleshed out that the Last Hero was an undead zombie Wight and that Jon Snow may return as one?.

We can't assume that, no. However, I feel that there is more in AGOT that most people realize. The entire second moon story and Dany fulfilling the Azor Ahai reborn prophecy is in book one, even before we had heard the name Azor Ahai. I think he plans ahead more than some might think, at least with core concepts. I think the zombie / undead thing is absolutely a central concept of the books, and of course we see a NW turned into a wight in the prologue. So there's no reason to think he hadn't imaged the hero as a zombie from the beginning. I really don't get into the business of trying to parse that out - I generally just evaluate what's in the books. 

8 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

If were really serious is there anything that hints at this in the original layout he had for three books? 

I'm not sure what you are referring to as being in the original outline - a zombie hero? Two points: one, not everything in the books has to be in the outline by any means. Late story twists and magical concepts don't need to be in there, and I do not agree that all the important elements of the current story have to be in that letter. The story outlined there is obviously a lot different than the current story, so I don't buy this argument in general. Second point, some of the letter is blacked out. 

8 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I could be wrong of course but I think that as early as the Prologue may not be the most solid place to look for clues that the Others were looking to check if the leader of the Watch was an undead zombie you know what I mean?

No, I disagree completely, for the reasons above.

8 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

GRRM may not even have created Coldhands then or even came up with the idea that there were intelligent good wights. Just sayin we should keep that in mind.

What good is keeping that in mind? We can't ever know when he had what idea unless he tells us, so what is the good in keeping this in mind? If the books seems to be saying something, then it's saying something. I am not in the habit of dismissing or throwing shade on ideas because he might not have thought of something at that point. 

8 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

This is all not to say I don't like your theory, quite the opposite! I like it. 

Great! So we can move on and discuss other things then, because we don't even have a disagreement really. 

8 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

But I would advise caution against going back to the first chapter in the whole story for stuff to make it seem more likely as it may just not be there. But we all know the drill by now. If we want it to be there, we make it so don't we?.

I try very hard to demand a high standard of textual corroboration for any idea which I endorse. That is why I always include multiple examples to support any hypothesis that I put in my essays. You can question any given idea or interpretation, by all means, I know I am not right all the time. But blanket statements about reaching and reading into things don't really mean anything to me - you're stating the obvious.  Of course we all must be cautious about bending things to fit a hypothesis - I am highly cognizant of this pitfall, because i have a podcast audience which I am trying to respect and treat like adults, and I feel a duty to represent the symbolism and mythology of the books in as un-biased a way as I can. The biggest thing I am afraid of in my writing is turning people off of the general idea of analyzing the mythological and symbolic content of martin's writing by reaching too far and misinterpreting. So please understand - I take it seriously. I feel like there is a difference between what I put in my essays proper - where I support every conclusion with multiple examples of supporting evidence - and these discussion threads, where we freely explore new ideas. You started this exchange by suggesting that I am ignoring things to make things fit my interpretation, and you must understand I am not going to appreciate that, particularly because it is not the case. I am not trying to claim anything about this prologue, merely reacting to new ideas and exploring them.  

[LmL]

26 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@LmL 

On the frost covered sword again. It's not the lazy parry that shatters it. Waymar throws everything he has into that last lunge. His whole weight behind it so whether it's a lazy party or not the impact will still be quite solid. 

With GRRM mentioning the frost on the blade not once but twice, which to me is akin to holding up a sign post for us in these books at times. And also the Last Hero who had a blade snap from frost, and he has history with the Others. That's three instances that are hard to kind of shoot down as a healthy reason for the blade snapping IMO. 

No doubt - the shattering of Waymar's sword is meant as an echo of the LH's sword shattering from the cold. Absolutely. The question is, why didn't all the other previous blows from the cold icy sword break Waymar's sword? His sword was already frosted over during the fight - seems like it's already frozen, ready to break. But it held out for a long time, until the lazy parry. We know the cold snapped it - the question is why then, and not before?

 

6 minutes ago, SiSt said:

It´s an open question, but to me, it seems more likely that the blood is what triggers the breaking of the sword, with blood magic being the most potent form of magic, and the others certainly being somewhat magical beings.

Very good point - blood magic is the most powerful type of sorcery, we are told, and shown as well. That has to be considered. 

6 minutes ago, SiSt said:

It would explain the other Others taking part in the butchery simply to make sure their swords get some fresh blood too. The timing and manner of the breaking is at least suspicious, even if steel certainly can become brittle at winter temperatures depending on its alloy and forging.

That's interesting... I am more inclined to think seeing his blood was simply a sign to them he was mortal and weak, but your idea that the blood actually strengthen the sword of the Others (or their magic perhaps) is intriguing.  They do all want a piece. I'll have to keep that idea in mind and see if I see any corroborating evidence for this idea.  

6 minutes ago, SiSt said:

It is interesting to note, however, how "human" the Others seem to be. They are not superfreaking strong, super fast or anything like that. They seem cautious, seem to share some joke/sense of humour/irony and have some form of honor or ritual form of combat. It fits very well into the general "grey" feel of everyone in the books and make them much more interesting antagonists. They are certainly more "human" than someone like Gregor, despite their magic nature.

They ride horses, wear armor, wield swords. Speech, language, sense of humor, tactics. Bones and blood. 

Definitely human in some way, at one time. 

6 minutes ago, SiSt said:

I like the note of the gloves. 

Regarding the level of humanity left in an undead skinchanger/greenseer zombie, that´s open for discussion, seeing we have just one example and that one likely being very, very old. They may retain individual levels of body function, just as there are varying levels of cognitive function for the different types of zombie. 

I think I´ll let this theme lie for now, unless we find anything else in the books that may cast some light on this very first chapter and what´s really going on. I will say that it´s entirely plausible that the undead skinchanger/greenseer lord commander Jon Snow has been part of the end game from day one, even if Bloodraven has been added to the mix later, simply because Bloodraven is a secondary character in the main story that could just as well have been replaced by some other character/cotf/random greenseer.

Also because the zombie business appears to be linked to the entire corn king cycle, and that is definitely something George had in mind ever since he conceived of a Long Night. I tried to make that point clear in the first part of this series, that the zombies are a natural outflow of corn king mythology if you stop the seasons and day / night cycle. An undead hero makes perfect sense in this context, and that would be a good reason to suspect George had undead heroes in mind from the beginning. If my theory is correct, the soul jar thing is one of the fundamental aspects of skinchanger power. 

[Macgregor of the North]

@LmL

Quote

We do not know how closely the Others were watching them, that is an assumption. Also, the Others have to hide by day, so if they were watching them, it would had to have been with some kind of magical farsight, and we have no idea if the Others can do that.

Well we know that Gared and Will, both veterans of a hundred rangings each, and that's at the very least in the case of Gared, actually felt they were being watched, not by Wildlings either, and I personally took their word that there was something watching them in the woods that whole ninth day. 

"Will shared his unease. He had been four years on the Wall. The first time he had been sent beyond, all the old stories had come rushing back, and his bowels had turned to water. He had laughed about it afterward. He was a veteran of a hundred rangings by now, and the endless dark wilderness that the southron called the haunted forest had no more terrors for him.

"Until tonight. Something was different tonight. There was an edge to this darkness that made his hackles rise. Nine days they had been riding, north and northwest and then north again, farther and farther from the Wall, hard on the track of a band of Wildling raiders. Each day had been worse than the day that had come before it. Today was the worst of all. A cold wind was blowing out of the north, and it made the trees rustle like living things. All day, Will had felt as though something were watching him, something cold and implacable that loved him not. Gared had felt it too. Will wanted nothing so much as to ride hellbent for the safety of the Wall, but that was not a feeling to share with your commander."

Thats pretty powerful stuff I think. I'm quite sure they knew fine well they were being watched all day but just couldn't tell Waymar.

And as to the Others not being able to see them during the day, I'm sure the books explained as per Tormund, that they do not go running around in the sun but they don't go away either, there always around in the shadows watching. 

I just find it hard to believe the Others couldn't tell Waymar was a living man since they were being watched all day, eating, breathing, pissing shitting and all that. 

I wont reply to all the rest man as it's getting later on a Friday night and my time is usually spent away from here at weekends. No disrespect.

I like the theory, it's cool. I just don't think the AGOT Prologue is somewhere you will find too many gold nuggets on your mining expedition that's all and when alls said and done, the original thing we will look at which guided the Others behaviour that ninth day, wasn't that they were checking if he was an undead zombie, but if he was the slender, graceful, grey eyed living man they were curious about, who was the leader of their thousands year old foes the Nights Watch, and if he was carrying the blade which devastated their kind during the war for the dawn. Dragonsteel, although they likely have a mean as hell name for it that sounds like a ball of Ice the size of earth splitting in two.

[LmL]

6 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@LmL

Well we know that Gared and Will, both veterans of a hundred rangings each, and that's at the very least in the case of Gared, actually felt they were being watched, not by Wildlings either, and I personally took their word that there was something watching them in the woods that whole ninth day. 

"Will shared his unease. He had been four years on the Wall. The first time he had been sent beyond, all the old stories had come rushing back, and his bowels had turned to water. He had laughed about it afterward. He was a veteran of a hundred rangings by now, and the endless dark wilderness that the southron called the haunted forest had no more terrors for him.

"Until tonight. Something was different tonight. There was an edge to this darkness that made his hackles rise. Nine days they had been riding, north and northwest and then north again, farther and farther from the Wall, hard on the track of a band of Wildling raiders. Each day had been worse than the day that had come before it. Today was the worst of all. A cold wind was blowing out of the north, and it made the trees rustle like living things. All day, Will had felt as though something were watching him, something cold and implacable that loved him not. Gared had felt it too. Will wanted nothing so much as to ride hellbent for the safety of the Wall, but that was not a feeling to share with your commander."

Thats pretty powerful stuff I think. I'm quite sure they knew fine well they were being watched all day but just couldn't tell Waymar.

And as to the Others not being able to see them during the day, I'm sure the books explained as per Tormund, that they do not go running around in the sun but they don't go away either, there always around in the shadows watching. 

I just find it hard to believe the Others couldn't tell Waymar was a living man since they were being watched all day, eating, breathing, pissing shitting and all that. 

Ok, so let's go with that line of thinking - the Others have a way to watch, and were watching. If that's the the case, then they would have also seen Waymar take out his sword and wave it around for a while before they came to the clearing, as he very prominently did.  The Others should have been able to recognize valyrian steel or dragonglass, I would think.

And that brings up another problem with the classic interpretation, actually - the Other fought Waymar for several minutes, banged swords many times - he should know at that point it isn't Valyrian steel. That cuts against the idea it wasn't until it gleamed with moonlight that they recognized it as inferior.

But let's say the classic interpretation is right, regardless. If you are of the opinion that the Others are scouting Waymar, sizing him up his sword and his grey eyes and all that, then why wouldn't his blood be a part of that? The idea that they recognized his fresh, hot, red blood as a sign he was vulnerable actually fits well with the idea that they were evaluating his sword and eyes and whatnot. I really don't see a conflict here at all, and in factthe classic interpretation lends credence to the idea his blood was also something they evaluated.

6 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I wont reply to all the rest man as it's getting later on a Friday night and my time is usually spent away from here at weekends. No disrespect.

I like the theory, it's cool. I just don't think the AGOT Prologue is somewhere you will find too many gold nuggets on your mining expedition that's all

I gave several reasons why I think this argument doesn't hold up.

6 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

and when alls said and done, the original thing we will look at which guided the Others behaviour that ninth day, wasn't that they were checking if he was an undead zombie, but if he was the slender, graceful, grey eyed living

yes, living man, as opposed to an undead man, who is a greater threat...

6 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

man they were curious about, who was the leader of their thousands year old foes the Nights Watch, and if he was carrying the blade which devastated their kind during the war for the dawn. Dragonsteel, although they likely have a mean as hell name for it that sounds like a ball of Ice the size of earth splitting in two.

Again, looking to see if he is mortal or not fits right into the rest of your proposed evaluation. 

[Macgregor of the North]

20 minutes ago, LmL said:

Ok, so let's go with that line of thinking - the Others have a way to watch, and were watching. If that's the the case, then they would have also seen Waymar take out his sword and wave it around for a while before they came to the clearing, as he very prominently did.  The Others should have been able to recognize valyrian steel or dragonglass, I would think.

And that brings up another problem with the classic interpretation, actually - the Other fought Waymar for several minutes, banged swords many times - he should know at that point it isn't Valyrian steel. That cuts against the idea it wasn't until it gleamed with moonlight that they recognized it as inferior.

But let's say the classic interpretation is right, regardless. If you are of the opinion that the Others are scouting Waymar, sizing him up his sword and his grey eyes and all that, then why wouldn't his blood be a part of that? The idea that they recognized his fresh, hot, red blood as a sign he was vulnerable actually fits well with the idea that they were evaluating his sword and eyes and whatnot. I really don't see a conflict here at all, and in factthe classic interpretation lends credence to the idea his blood was also something they evaluated.

I gave several reasons why I think this argument doesn't hold up.

yes, living man, as opposed to an undead man, who is a greater threat...

Again, looking to see if he is mortal or not fits right into the rest of your proposed evaluation. 

For starters we're not sure what this thousands year old possible early prototype for Valyrian steel, named Dragonsteel actually looked like are we? And we can't be sure the Others got a really close glimpse either while their kind were being obliterated in dark winters nightine conditions.

But it's absolutely obvious that even though the Others would have seen Waymar with the blade out before they approached him, they still show caution when he raised it up high. The main Other halts, and his back up moves in closer to give support to the main one.

Why should the Other know that after the swords bang together a few times it isn't VS? Do we know VS would destroy an Others blade? I'm quite sure it would melt through them but we will have to see if it can break their swords. It may do. 

Of course his blood comes into it in the fact that the Others can smell his hot blood, they are drawn to it and all that jazz. It's obvious isn't it that he's a living man. 

But unless I'm missing something something aren't you and @ravenous reader saying that they had to approach him and engage him to see if his blood ran red like a living being and not an undead zombie?.

Doesnt what we've just said squash that then and confirm that they knew he was no undead zombie all along? So what the hell has your argument been for then lol?.

[LmL]

19 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

For starters we're not sure what this thousands year old possible early prototype for Valyrian steel, named Dragonsteel actually looked like are we? And we can't be sure the Others got a really close glimpse either while their kind were being obliterated in dark winters nightine conditions.

But it's absolutely obvious that even though the Others would have seen Waymar with the blade out before they approached him, they still show caution when he raised it up high. The main Other halts, and his back up moves in closer to give support to the main one.

Why should the Other know that after the swords bang together a few times it isn't VS? Do we know VS would destroy an Others blade? I'm quite sure it would melt through them but we will have to see if it can break their swords. It may do. 

Why would that one glimpse of his sword somehow be more revealing than banging it dozens of times with their own sword? That's not convincing at all. 

Quote

Of course his blood comes into it in the fact that the Others can smell his hot blood, they are drawn to it and all that jazz. It's obvious isn't it that he's a living man. 

Once he bleeds, yes. I will also remind you that Beric can eat and drink, it's only Coldhands who doesn't. Melisandre doesn't need to, but can. 

Quote

But unless I'm missing something something aren't you and @ravenous reader saying that they had to approach him and engage him to see if his blood ran red like a living being and not an undead zombie?.

Yes

Quote

Doesnt what we've just said squash that then and confirm that they knew he was no undead zombie all along? So what the hell has your argument been for then lol?.

No. And again, I am not arguing a hypothesis, but exploring it with an open mind. I do not shoot down new hypothesis because they conflict with other more established hypothesis. It is also indisputable that the behavior of the Other changes after he draws blood, and it is also still true that we do not have a satisfactory answer for why Waymar's blade suddenly broke when it did, but not before. 

[ravenous reader]

3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

But I would advise caution against going back to the first chapter in the whole story for stuff to make it seem more likely as it may just not be there. But we all know the drill by now. If we want it to be there, we make it so don't we?.

We are trying out different ways of looking at things -- not necessarily exclusive to one another.  In my experience, @LmL has gamely put up with some of my more imaginative wanderings and derailments of his threads (albeit with a little 'moaning') and submitted with good humor and forbearance to my challenges, as I have in return, so I wouldn't say he's an ungracious nor close-minded host -- although we often have different ways of approaching things.  Sometimes an unlikely exploration can yield a surprisingly rich insight.

I must disagree with you regarding diminishing the value of returning to the beginning -- 'and now it ends' is intimately tied in with 'how it begins' -- therefore, I think the Prologue is enormously important and that one cannot return to it for a re-reading often enough.

As far as the Others mistaking Ser Waymar for someone else they'd imagined arriving as a threat, I've had that suspicion for a while, set off by the sable fur coat (which @evita mgfs and I have identified as a pun on the predator 'marten' with 'Martin' obviously; the 'moleskin' gloves which Royce wears are also a wink from the author, since 'Moleskine' is a famous journal in which writers jot down their notes)...I actually used to think that they mistook him for Euron (who also wears a full sable fur he purloined off Blacktyde after he'd murdered him in order to usurp the kingsmoot)!  You might say, I was on a 'wild sable chase' there for a while!  There's no harm in trying out new thoughts, no matter how 'crackpot' they seem to be, I guess is what I'm trying to impart here.

But you're right about the confirmation bias to a certain degree -- I now see evidence for my 'Deep Impact Drogon' hypothesis regarding Bran's heroic destiny in the stars everywhere, and never cease to regale everyone about it!    

I'll try to think more on your queries regarding the sword-shattering to which I don't really have a convincing answer -- give me time to process!

2 hours ago, LmL said:

I am more inclined to think seeing his blood was simply a sign to them he was mortal and weak, but your idea that the blood actually strengthen the sword of the Others (or their magic perhaps) is intriguing.  They do all want a piece. I'll have to keep that idea in mind and see if I see any corroborating evidence for this idea.  

What @SiSt is saying makes sense, considering the pale icy swords of the others can be compared to the pale icy Night's Queen herself who drank the Lord Commander's soul (i.e. he gave her his 'seed', which is the same thing as his blood and fire), just the way Oathkeeper is said to 'drink the sun' and the 'red' coloring Tobho Mott applied to the sword in an attempt to transform it; additionally, I imagine that sword to have become magically supercharged by having been used to behead its ancestral owner Eddard Stark -- so, if true, that would also be in keeping with the blood magic hypothesis.

@evita mgfs has extensively discussed the Holy Communion motif represented by the drinking of the blood in its various literal and symbolic forms.  At one point I recall discussing Bran's assassination attempt, in which Summer and Cat share a 'holy communion' ritual of their own, when they both partake of the attacker's blood (Cat bites into the attacker's arm like a wolf and draws blood), serving to instill them both with the superhuman strength needed to overcome Bran's attacker.  I believe it's highly magical -- since fire is also present (the burning of the Winterfell library which I have interpreted as an 'ignition of understanding').  Thereafter, Cat also becomes more proactive 'she-wolf' rather than mope-about 'floppy fish' and approaches life with more vigor and resolve, becoming an instrumental player in the war to follow -- as if she were a fresh-forged sword.  Bran, Arya and Jon's powers also all become amplified when they partake of flesh and blood, including that of humans, when they are 'warging'.  

To a certain extent, as we've already recognised, the White Walkers, the white shadows lurking in the woods, can be compared to wolves and even demonstrate typical lupine behavior  -- e.g. travelling in packs and sharing in kills according to a hierarchical system, where the 'alpha-' leader of the pack partakes of the feast first, followed by the other more subservient members.  This sort of behavior was also evident in how dogs and the other direwolves related to Ghost, who is obviously the alpha- of the Winterfell pack (even Nymeria fell into line around him; and that's saying something!)

1 hour ago, LmL said:

Quote

So what the hell has your argument been for then lol?.

No. And again, I am not arguing a hypothesis, but exploring it with an open mind. I do not shoot down new hypothesis because they conflict with other more established hypothesis.

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

For starters we're not sure what this thousands year old possible early prototype for Valyrian steel, named Dragonsteel actually looked like are we?

Compare:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon IV

Jon brushed the loose soil away to reveal a rounded bundle perhaps two feet across. He jammed his fingers down around the edges and worked it loose. When he pulled it free, whatever was inside shifted and clinked. Treasure, he thought, but the shapes were wrong to be coins, and the sound was wrong for metal.

A length of frayed rope bound the bundle together. Jon unsheathed his dagger and cut it, groped for the edges of the cloth, and pulled. The bundle turned, and its contents spilled out onto the ground, glittering dark and bright. He saw a dozen knives, leaf-shaped spearheads, numerous arrowheads. Jon picked up a dagger blade, featherlight and shiny black, hiltless. Torchlight ran along its edge, a thin orange line that spoke of razor sharpness. Dragonglass. What the maesters call obsidian. Had Ghost uncovered some ancient cache of the children of the forest, buried here for thousands of years? The Fist of the First Men was an old place, only . . .

To the reflection on this sword:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Prologue

Will heard the breath go out of Ser Waymar Royce in a long hiss. "Come no farther," the lordling warned. His voice cracked like a boy's. He threw the long sable cloak back over his shoulders, to free his arms for battle, and took his sword in both hands. The wind had stopped. It was very cold.

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

Ser Waymar met him bravely. "Dance with me then." He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold.

That's the difference between the obsidian vs. pale Other swords at night (but you're right it requires some kind of illumination, moonlight or torchlight in order to see)...

Then, there's also Valyrian steel -- granted, harder to see, but the rippling pattern its unmistakable trademark, once you see it:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I

"Yes," Catelyn agreed. The words gave her a chill, as they always did. The Stark words. Every noble house had its words. Family mottoes, touchstones, prayers of sorts, they boasted of honor and glory, promised loyalty and truth, swore faith and courage. All but the Starks. Winter is coming, said the Stark words. Not for the first time, she reflected on what a strange people these northerners were.

"The man died well, I'll give him that," Ned said. He had a swatch of oiled leather in one hand. He ran it lightly up the greatsword as he spoke, polishing the metal to a dark glow. "I was glad for Bran's sake. You would have been proud of Bran."

"I am always proud of Bran," Catelyn replied, watching the sword as he stroked it. She could see the rippling deep within the steel, where the metal had been folded back on itself a hundred times in the forging. 

[Macgregor of the North]

9 hours ago, LmL said:

Why would that one glimpse of his sword somehow be more revealing than banging it dozens of times with their own sword? That's not convincing at all. 

Once he bleeds, yes. I will also remind you that Beric can eat and drink, it's only Coldhands who doesn't. Melisandre doesn't need to, but can. 

Yes

No. And again, I am not arguing a hypothesis, but exploring it with an open mind. I do not shoot down new hypothesis because they conflict with other more established hypothesis. It is also indisputable that the behavior of the Other changes after he draws blood, and it is also still true that we do not have a satisfactory answer for why Waymar's blade suddenly broke when it did, but not before. 

You were saying that the Other would have known the sword was not Valyrian steel, or Dragonsteel or whatever just because Waymar took it out and waved it around for a bit, I'm not sure why you would think the Others know this?.

and in any case isn't it obvious from the Prologue that even when the Other is right in front of Waymar having already seen the sword out of its sheath and all that, when Waymar lifts it up high the Other still halts like its wary of the blade. And the back up Others make their presence known, it's clear they are all still very much trying to figure out the blade and are intimated by it. 

Why are you talking about Beric and Melisandre, isn't your whole theory that the type of Wight you are talking about is a Coldhands type one? Beric is completely different and been revived by flame and Mel, well Mels Mel isn't she, pure fiery. 

Where are you going with that?. Can you clarify what type of Wight you are talking about because if I'm super honest, you have led us to believe you mean a Coldhands type one. And if that's the case the Others would have known way way before Night fell on the ninth day, way before they even approached him, never mind drew his blood, that he was an ordinary living man for all the reasons I've stated.

They would have saw him:

Eating, breathing, pissing, shitting etc. And just his general behaviour would single him out as a living human. And here's the clincher. 

Way before they even needed to draw his blood to see it flow red and steam on the floor, the Others would have detected and smelled the hot blood in him.

Do you deny absolutely any of that LmL? 

If you don't think the Others would be able to smell his hot blood then you may as well just say you dont believe the Last Hero was real, know what I mean?

[Macgregor of the North]

@ravenous reader

I return to the Prologue of AGOT often man and reread it all the way through taking every detail in. 

What you guys are saying effectively is that the Others, who have been shadowing Waymar, and on the ninth day have been watching him all day, and I do mean all day, even LmL had to concede that when I presented the text. 

So, with the Others watching Waymars general living human behaviour, quite unlike a Wight like Coldhands I'll add. And watching him eat, breathe, piss and shit and all that stuff, I think they would have known fine well he was a living human man wouldn't you? 

On top of that , the Others can detect and smell your 'hot' blood. Do you deny that? I'm asking in a nice way. I really need to know if you and LmL do not think the Others can do this because if you do, then it's case closed. 

But if you don't, it seems like you are plucking only what you need from the old legends to suit your own beliefs. 

So given everything I've just said, how could i possibly be expected to believe you guys idea that the Others approached Waymar with a view to spilling his hot red blood on the floor and see it steam to determine whether he was a Wight or not? 

Havent I proved it was obvious he was a living man waaay before then?. 

Unless we are talking about a different type of Wight from a Coldhands type one but I'm gonna stick my neck out and say that LmL's theory has been based around that exact type of undead zombie wights, haven't they?. 

Must I return to my Syrio Forel pep talk? You remember yes? The one where we have to stop ourselves from seeing the wonderful beast and just see the Cat. Just an ordinary Cat. 

Just so.

[LmL]

No you're right, if they can smell hot blood then they should be able to tell he wasn't a Coldhands, that's true. 

However, I am not exclusively talking about a Coldhands wight. I very much think we could see Jon as an improved version of Beric - raised by fire like Beric, but with more of his soul intact because he's a skinchanger. The foreshadowing of the burning scarecrows in Jon's vision which I talked about extensively in the essay (you did read that right?) foreshadows fiery undead NW brothers. They would still have hot blood, though, so if the others can smell hot blood they would again know right away. 

The thing is, we don't know which elements of any myth are true or not, literal or symbolic. We can only lyrics make our best educated guesses. So it's not a matter of choosing to ignore things to suit my theory - really dude, you have to stop insinuating stuff like this, it's quite obnoxious- but rather trying out different hypothesis. We don't know whether or not the Others can smell hot blood - I'd guess yes, but we don't know. Just like we don't know how closely the Others were really watching Waymar's company. 

Try to remember that this entire scene is not even part of my theory, and that I am not asserting any given thing about this scene. I really do not appreciate your repeated attempts to turn this into a someone is right / someone is wrong, adversarial type thing. You clearly are coming into this with a well developed and rigid interpretation of this scene, which is fine, but it's based on several assumptions which may or may not be correct. And once again, I do not immediately rule out a new hypothesis because it conflicts with an established hypothesis, even my own. 

Furthermore, we can't act like everything in this scene is solved, because we still don't have a good hypothesis in why that final blow should be the one to shatter it after Waymar's sword lasted so long. 

So look... if you have a different part of the theory you'd like to discuss, fire away. This horse is dead beat now. 

[a black swan]

12 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Arya is the Last Hero, the Last Hero story and Mel's vision about Arya she thinks she got wrong are the same scenes. The dog is Sandor, Needle the snapping sword. One would assume it's Bran bidding her on this journey for whatever reason. The undead references will be greyscale, Garin's Curse, which Arya will eventually get as wights/others will not be able to or not care to track those with greyscale.

 

When you strip away all of Mel's conjecture and assumptions, we're left with a vision she saw once of a grey girl on a dying horse and the clear description of her surroundings. 

In Mel's vision, her description of where this grey girl is travelling seems to fit the God's Eye. Would you agree?

The lake calls out to Arya and the connection seems to be made. 

Perhaps, Arya journeys to the Isle of Faces? By the time she returns to Westeros, it will be winter and the God's Eye would be frozen over.

[chrisdaw]

25 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

When you strip away all of Mel's conjecture and assumptions, we're left with a vision she saw once of a grey girl on a dying horse and the clear description of her surroundings. 

In Mel's vision, her description of where this grey girl is travelling seems to fit the God's Eye. Would you agree?

The lake calls out to Arya and the connection seems to be made. 

Perhaps, Arya journeys to the Isle of Faces? By the time she returns to Westeros, it will be winter and the God's Eye would be frozen over.

There will probably be a literal grey dying horse but the dying horse is symbolic of disease/plague to match with grey, greyscale.

God's Eye.

or

When the Narrow Sea dries there will be a lake left in it's middle like the womb of the world in the dothraki sea.

And Mel is sure she's headed north, but she may be telling north by the sun (how else?), and the sun may appear to be rising in the west and setting in the east at this time, meaning she's going south.

[Pain killer Jane]

Thanks @LmL. Sorry I have been AWOL. During Winter, my rl job tends to get super busy. 

On 1/4/2017 at 0:44 AM, LmL said:

From this we can deduce that the original Night's Watch brothers owed their lives - or their unlives - to the greenseers. This fits well with the gap in the story of the last hero - he got help from the children (from the greenseers), and later emerged with companions to fight the Others and a spiffy new sword. In other words, the greenseer magic of the children was vital to the survival of mankind and the establishment of the Night's Watch. 

Loved the essay and the podcast. I know you asked me about the scarecrow. I will answer as soon as I can. Sorry about the delay. I agree with this and makes sense with what Jon and Bran's story lines are depicting. 

And on a semi related noted, I wonder if we could find more clues about the Last Hero and his relationship to Long Night in analyzing Alyn Velaryon, Huzhor Amai (Heimdall), Euron Greyjoy, the Last Hero (especially if you are correct in supposing that Coldhands is paying for his crimes) and your essay on the Drowned God and the Grey King. 

Oh and one thing I wanted to add about Patchface. There is a Legend about Bran finding a silver branch of a tree from Tir na nOg that had bell shaped apples that when they rang would put everyone to sleep. But was also used as a way to bring attention to the king's words during council. So I know this is late for Christmas but Patchface's and his helmet of bells on branches, Dany and her oil stiff silver hair with silver bells ringing and the GoHH saying the bells were the saddest alluding to Jinglebell's death, and the carol of the bells in the series is more significant then we think. 

[Bluetiger]

I'll just post this legend, to show the numerous connections to ASOIAF:

From Wikipedia - The Voyage of Bran

Quote

Bran mac Febail (modern spelling: Bran mac Feabhail) embarks upon a quest to the Otherworld. One day while Bran is walking, he hears beautiful music, so beautiful, in fact, that it lulls him to sleep. Upon awakening, he sees a beautiful silver branch in white bloom in front of him. He returns to his royal house, and while his company is there, an Otherworld woman appears, and sings to him a poem about the land where the branch had grown. In the song, she identifies the branch to be from an apple tree in Emain, another part of Ireland. In this Otherworld, it is always summer, there is no want of food or water, no sickness or despair ever touches the perfect people, and there is no unhappiness or "no rough or harsh voice." She tells Bran to voyage to the Land of Women across the sea, and the next day he gathers a company of nine men to do so. Each of his foster brothers were put in charge of a group of three men.

After two days, he sees a man on a chariot speeding towards him. The man is Manannan mac Lir, and he tells Bran that he is not sailing upon the ocean, but upon a flowery plain. He also reveals to Bran that there are many men riding in chariots, but that they are invisible. He tells Bran of how he is to beget his son in Ireland, and that his son will become a great warrior. He follows by prophesying the life of the boy and how Manannan mac Lir will be a teacher and a father to him.

Bran leaves Manannan mac Lir, and comes to the Isle of Joy. All the people upon the Isle of Joy laugh and stare at him, but will not answer his calls. When Bran sends a man ashore to see what the matter is, the man starts to laugh and gape just like the others. Bran leaves him and sails farther.

He then reaches the Land of Women, but is hesitant to go ashore. However, the leader of the women throws a magical clew (ball of yarn) at him which sticks to his hand. She then pulls the boat to shore, and each man pairs off with a woman, Bran with the leader. There were three times nine "couches" available for all of them.

For what seems to be one year, although it is in actuality many more, the men feast happily in the Land of Women until Nechtan Mac Collbran feels homesickness stir within him. The leader of the women is reluctant to let them go, and warns them not to step upon the shores of Ireland and to get back the man they left on the Island of Joy.

Bran and his company sail back to Ireland. The people that have gathered on the shores to meet him do not recognize his name except in their legends. Nechtan Mac Collbran, upset, jumps off the boat onto the land. Immediately, Nechtan Mac Collbran turns to ashes.

Bran and his company relate the rest of their story to the Irish, and then sail across the sea, never to be seen again.

 

[Bluetiger]

Oh... And the story of Saint Brendan:

To quote Wikipedia:

Quote

Saint Brendan of Clonfert (c. 484 – c. 577) (Irish: Naomh Bréanainn; Latin: Brendanus; Icelandic: (heilagur) Brandanus), also referred to as Brendan moccu Altae, called "the Navigator", "the Voyager", "the Anchorite", or "the Bold", is one of the early Irish monasticsaints. He is chiefly renowned for his legendary quest to the "Isle of the Blessed," also called Saint Brendan's Island. The Voyage of Saint Brendan could be called an immram (Irish navigational story). He was one of the Twelve Apostles of Ireland.

(...)

St. Brendan is chiefly renowned for his legendary journey to the Isle of the Blessed as described in the ninth century Voyage of St Brendan the Navigator. Many versions exist that tell of how he set out onto the Atlantic Ocean with sixteen pilgrims (other versions have fourteen, plus three unbelievers who join at the last minute) searching for the Garden of Eden.[10] One of these companions is said to have been Saint Malo, the namesake of Saint-Malo. If it happened, this would have occurred sometime between AD 512–530, before his travel to the island of Great Britain. On his trip, Brendan is supposed to have seen Saint Brendan's Island, a blessed island covered with vegetation. He also encountered a sea monster, an adventure he shared with his contemporary Saint Columba. The most commonly illustrated adventure is his landing on an island which turns out to be a giant sea monster called Jasconius or Jascon. This too, has its parallels in other stories, not only in Irish mythology but in other traditions, from Sinbad the Sailor to Pinocchio.

The earliest extant version of The Voyage of Saint Brendan was recorded around AD 900. There are over 100 manuscripts of the story across Europe, as well as many additional translations. The Voyage of Saint Brendan is an overtly Christian narrative, but also contains narratives of natural phenomena and fantastical events and places, which appealed to a broad populace. The Voyage of Saint Brendan contains many parallels and inter-textual references to the Voyage of Bran and the Voyage of Máel Dúin.

On the Kerry coast, he built a currach-like boat of wattle, covered it with hides tanned in oak bark softened with butter, set up a mast and a sail. He and a small group of monks fasted for forty days, and after a prayer upon the shore, embarked in the name of the Trinity.^[11] The account is characterized by a great deal of literary license and contains references to hell where “great demons threw down lumps of fiery slag from an island with rivers of gold fire” and “great crystal pillars.” Many now believe these to be references to the volcanic activity around Iceland, and to icebergs.^[12]

Chapter Synopsis:

1. Saint Barrid tells of his visit to the Island of Paradise, which prompts Brendan to go in search of the isle.
2. Brendan assembles 14 monks to accompany him.
3. They fast at three-day intervals for 40 days, and visit Saint Enda for three days and three nights.
4. Three latecomers join the group. They interfere with Brendan's sacred numbers.
5. They find an island with a dog, mysterious hospitality (no people, but food left out), and an Ethiopian devil.
6. One latecomer admits to having stolen from the mysterious island, Brendan exorcises the Ethiopian devil from the latecomer, latecomer dies and is buried.
7. They find an island with a boy who brings them bread and water.
8. They find an island of sheep, eat some, and stay for Holy Week (before Easter).
9. They find the island of Jasconius, have Easter Mass, and hunt whales and fish.
10. They find an island that is the Paradise of Birds, and the birds sing psalms and praise the Lord.
11. They find the island of the monks of Ailbe, with magic loaves, no ageing, and complete silence. They celebrate Christmas.
12. A long voyage after Lent. They find an island with a well, and drinking the water puts them to sleep for 1, 2, or 3 days based on the number of cups each man drank.
13. They find a "coagulated" sea.
14. They return to the islands of Sheep, Jasconius, and the Paradise of Birds. A bird prophesies that the men must continue this year-long cycle for seven years before they will be holy enough to reach the Island of Paradise.
15. A sea creature approaches the boat, but God shifts the sea to protect the men. Another sea creature comes, chops the first into three pieces, and leaves. The men eat the dead sea creature.
16. They find an island of 3 choirs of anchorites (monks), who give them fruit, and the second latecomer stays behind when the others leave.
17. They find an island of grapes, and stayed for 40 days.
18. They find a gryphon and a bird battle. The gryphon dies.
19. To the monastery at Ailbe again for Christmas.
20. The sea is clear, and many threatening fish circle their boat, but God protects them.
21. They find an island, but when they light a fire, the island sinks; it is actually a whale.
22. They pass a "silver pillar wrapped in a net" in the sea.
23. They pass an island of blacksmiths, who throw slag at them.
24. They find a volcano, and the third latecomer is taken by demons down to Hell.
25. They find Judas sitting unhappily on a cold, wet rock in the middle of the sea, and discover that this is his respite from Hell for Sundays and feast days. Brendan protects Judas from the demons of Hell for one night.
26. They find an island where Paul the Hermit has lived a perfect monastic life for 60 years. He wears nothing but hair and is fed by an otter.
27. They return to the island of Sheep, Jasconius, and the Paradise of Birds.
28. They find the Promised Land of the Saints.
29. They return home, and Brendan dies

[ravenous reader]

2 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Oh and one thing I wanted to add about Patchface. There is a Legend about Bran finding a silver branch of a tree from Tir na nOg that had bell shaped apples that when they rang would put everyone to sleep. But was also used as a way to bring attention to the king's words during council. So I know this is late for Christmas but Patchface's and his helmet of bells on branches, Dany and her oil stiff silver hair with silver bells ringing and the GoHH saying the bells were the saddest alluding to Jinglebell's death, and the carol of the bells in the series is more significant then we think. 

Hi PK Jane -- welcome back; we've missed your insights!  

In your litany of silver dreadlocked hairstyles and headdresses, you've forgotten my favorite, namely the Gipps wife with lime in her hair, ha ha!  And this one; while not silver, emanating from somewhere within the bird's nest of her tangled hair, there is a music that might 'break your heart' (perhaps it might even leave 'a crack on the face of the moon'...:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

"Fire burns them. Fire is always hungry."

That was not Arya's voice, nor any child's. It was a woman's voice, high and sweet, with a strange music in it like none that he had ever heard and a sadness that he thought might break his heart. Bran squinted, to see her better. It was a girl, but smaller than Arya, her skin dappled like a doe's beneath a cloak of leaves. Her eyes were queer—large and liquid, gold and green, slitted like a cat's eyes. No one has eyes like that. Her hair was a tangle of brown and red and gold, autumn colors, with vines and twigs and withered flowers woven through it.

The silver branch of bells is an extremely interesting find.  It reminds me of the elusive symbolic meaning of Bran perching on the bridge connecting the rookery to the belltower...  If the belltower represents the otherworld or underworld where 'it is always summer under the sea,' and Bran as greenseer is the facilitator, bridging the distance between that otherworld realm and the rookery, then the rookery (instead of representing Bran as I've previously assumed) might represent the liminal world of the Wall, yet still reside in the world of the living, populated by the Night's Watch with their 'crows' -- who are about to be inducted into the 'undead' zombie world!

It's amusing that the bells are so mellifluous, they put people to sleep -- which is fitting I suppose since Bran is a greendreamer in addition to greenseer and ensnared in a cave of singers with ravens pecking a path on his arms in time to the music -- but somehow I was expecting Bran to 'wake the sleepers' instead!

[SiSt]

15 hours ago, LmL said:

Try to remember that this entire scene is not even part of my theory, 

It should be. Tons of symbolism relating to your moon/meteor. 

Waymars sword shines with moonlight, then after the Other's sword draws blood (it becomes a bloody/fiery sword/meteor) it shatters the moon/moonlight blade, which breaks into shards, one of which pierces the eye of Waymar aka the moon (due to previous moonlight on his blade)... 

[Pain killer Jane]

4 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

Oh... And the story of Saint Brendan:

To quote Wikipedia:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

Thank you for finding this. I did not know about St. Brendan. Super significant as we know that GRRM is writing his interpretation of the bible. And thank you for posting The Voyage of Bran. I wish I had time to post this during Christmas but I missed it. I might do a little something for Three Kings Day. 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

In your litany of silver dreadlocked hairstyles and headdresses, you've forgotten my favorite, namely the Gipps wife with lime in her hair, ha ha!  And this one; while not silver, emanating from somewhere within the bird's nest of her tangled hair, there is a music that might 'break your heart' (perhaps it might even leave 'a crack on the face of the moon'...:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

"Fire burns them. Fire is always hungry."

That was not Arya's voice, nor any child's. It was a woman's voice, high and sweet, with a strange music in it like none that he had ever heard and a sadness that he thought might break his heart. Bran squinted, to see her better. It was a girl, but smaller than Arya, her skin dappled like a doe's beneath a cloak of leaves. Her eyes were queer—large and liquid, gold and green, slitted like a cat's eyes. No one has eyes like that. Her hair was a tangle of brown and red and gold, autumn colors, with vines and twigs and withered flowers woven through it.

Nice Catch!!!! And since this links Leaf to Arya and Arya is linked to Lyanna and we suspect that Lyanna is the KotLT  which conjures up the Gipps wife and her wicker shield that she carries for her husband, Huzhor Amai. 

And the 'music that breaks their heart' is (You know in this sense of the cracked moon being a broken heart provides support for @LmL's Mountain symbolism as the moon warrior tower -as you pointed out the association of the belltower being a symbol of the other world- symbol and also the associations of being beheaded as being a broken tower. Then we can say that we may be seeing an extremely out of control broken heart story because after all St. Valentine is the saint of love and he was beheaded.) not just be the Song of Ice and Fire played on a lyre but also is a carol of bells. We might have to take a closer look at Norvos, and Mellario.

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

If the belltower represents the otherworld or underworld where 'it is always summer under the sea,' and Bran as greenseer is the facilitator, bridging the distance between that otherworld realm and the rookery, then the rookery (instead of representing Bran as I've previously assumed) might represent the liminal world of the Wall, yet still reside in the world of the living, populated by the Night's Watch with their 'crows' -- who are about to be inducted into the 'undead' zombie world!

It's amusing that the bells are so mellifluous, they put people to sleep -- which is fitting I suppose since Bran is a greendreamer in addition to greenseer and ensnared in a cave of singers with ravens pecking a path on his arms in time to the music -- but somehow I was expecting Bran to 'wake the sleepers' instead!

It is my suspicion that Huzhor Amai as the son of the Fisher Queens is symbolic of Heimdall, (the son of nine mothers who are personifications of the waves akin to the Fisher Queens and their barge courtesan echoes in Braavos) the watcher who will blow the horn awaking the gods. So I am thinking that someone echoing Huzhor Amai will be the one waking the sleepers or was the one to wake the sleepers if we take the sleepers to be the Others. 

[LmL]

17 minutes ago, SiSt said:

It should be. Tons of symbolism relating to your moon/meteor. 

Waymars sword shines with moonlight, then after the Other's sword draws blood (it becomes a bloody/fiery sword/meteor) it shatters the moon/moonlight blade, which breaks into shards, one of which pierces the eye of Waymar aka the moon (due to previous moonlight on his blade)... 

Oh there is a ton of mythical astronomy in this scene, absolutely. It's terrific - the shattered sword is a rain of needles - but needles are swords. A storm of swords, the meteor shower, just like Waymar's blood droplets which were as red as fire. And as you say, ther blinding of one eye for the moon disaster, then the blue eye opens - that is the ice moon awakening with cold blue fire, in my interpretation. But anyway, I only meant that my undead skinchanger theory did not draw on this scene for evidence, that's all. Mythical Astronomy wants to f*** this scene in the eye socket, if you'll pardon my particularly messed-up homemade mythical astronomy metaphor.