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Knowing Nothing


coldpie

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Longtime lurker, seldom poster--one thing that has always rankled with me in both the novels and the show is Ygritte's frequent catchphrase--"You know nothing, Jon Snow".

It is one thing to think this is simply a wildling thinking that her new crow boyfriend doesn't have sufficient knowledge of the ways of life north of the wall, but in the context it's often uttered, it makes it sound like she knows something he does not that is far more important than the exigencies of life as a wildling in her environment.

Is Martin trying to make us think Ygritte is able to see more to him than he knows about himself? Or do the wildlings have some special knowledge that a person who fits his description would arrive in time to help them in their battle to survive the coming of the White Walkers?  Or is she simply saying that Jon Snow is clueless in the usual ways that young men can be clueless about women in relationships?

The repetition of this catch phrase became tedious if it wasn't meant to be portentous (in the manner of "where do whores go?")

CP

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Ygritte tried very hard to get Jon to "steal" her, but he was too stiffnecked and proper to notice.   So Ygritte had to steal him.   Ygritte does know a whole lot that Jon doesn't, but I think it has more to do with the dynamics of their relationship.  Wildlings are hated and feared.  This  proper idealistic lordling had a lot to learn.   So yes and no.   Ygritte was in the role of teacher in that relationship.    

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I think Val says it to him as well, so maybe it's something that a lot of wildlings say or think: those bloody know-nothing kneelers!

That said, the repetition doesn't necessarily portend anything particularly interesting. GRRM is just a repetitive writer. His editors should have cracked the fucking whip on him, but alas they don't seem to have the arsehole for it.

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2 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

That said, the repetition doesn't necessarily portend anything particularly interesting. GRRM is just a repetitive writer. His editors should have cracked the fucking whip on him, but alas they don't seem to have the arsehole for it.

Maybe he knows something we don't, and it IS important.

Maybe.. we know nothing.

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Let's not forget this is a piece of literature.  Yes, Ygritte repeats the same phrase a lot  - probably for the reasons @Curled Finger explains.  No, GRRM is not trying to suggest that Ygritte has some sort of secret knowledge or agenda referring to Jon's greater purpose or role in the story.  But yes, Jon has a greater purpose and role in the story, and he presently lacks the knowledge to fulfill that purpose.  And yes, "you know nothing" is relevant to Jon's journey of discovery.  But Ygritte doesn't know that.  It's not phrase repeated for plot purposes, its a phrase repeated for artistic/literary/thematic purposes.  

I'm sure one of the tropes GRRM detests are rulers who already know how to rule.  That's not how it works in real life.  In real life, people learn by making a bunch of mistakes.  All of his characters make mistakes all the time - for some of them, their mistakes get them killed.  For others, they survive and learn, and become wiser for it.  In Jon's case, I think the point is that he knows "nothing" about who he really is - but again, this is not to be taken LITERALLY - Ygritte doesn't know either, and isn't referring to that.  It's just GRRM creating beauty with words.

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At the risk of overanalysing:

"Know" in an archaic sense means "to have sex with", and "nothing" in an archaic sense means a woman's genitalia (Shakespeare uses it all the time). Thus Ygritte telling Jon that he knows nothing can be a reference to the sexual nature of their relationship.

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Yeah, I always read it as Ygritte telling Jon how he knows nothing about the free folk's way of life.

Though I have to say, the other interpretation of "knowing" "nothing" is quite amusing. I don't think those words carry the same double-meanings as they did in our world, as Martin only uses some archaisms and I don't think these carry those meanings anywhere else in the novels, but I won't rule it out as unintentional, especially as the phrase is said during a certain scene, and more frequently following that scene if I remember correctly.

And yes, it must be quite a common phrase among the free folk as Val also says it to Jon when she has no connection to Ygritte.

(Of course, Melisandre also uses it, but specifically to prove she has some real magical powers)

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1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

"You know nothing, Jon Snow. This wall is made o’ blood."

Ygritte to Jon, about the Wall being made of ice.

There are things that the wildings know that south of the Wall are forgotten.

A good example of the latter meaning of the phrase. I always took it as being a variety of things: The initial knowing nothing of wildling ways, and later, a skeptic's mantra towards all the things he would experience, allowing him to challenge his own beliefs and misunderstandings, even mistakes.

The weight of the phrase, and its various meanings, grow as Jon does. I don't think it's anything super specific, though.

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2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

"You know nothing, Jon Snow. This wall is made o’ blood."

Ygritte to Jon, about the Wall being made of ice.

There are things that the wildings know that south of the Wall are forgotten.

I have always taken this to mean that there is blood magic to the wall and the wildlings haven't forgot that

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1 minute ago, rotting sea cow said:

the Wall must fall.

In my dream ending to the book the wall comes down and the IT is destroyed simultaneously. This isn't a theory, I just think it would be such cool symmetry. 

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There is a meta level to that. Ygritte says it because Jon knows nothing about wildling world a knows little about girls. GRRM, IMO, writes it as a meta joke.

Jon Snow, knows nothing, because likely he doesn't even know is own true name.

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11 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I have always taken this to mean that there is blood magic to the wall and the wildlings haven't forgot that

I thought she was talking about the cost the wall's exacted on her people. Same way when she sings the last of the giants, she's really singing about the free folk

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12 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

I thought she was talking about the cost the wall's exacted on her people. Same way when she sings the last of the giants, she's really singing about the free folk

I feel there is that double meaning. I think George does this a lot. Oddly it is similar to how Heraclitus wrote. Whether grrm knows this or not I can't say. But having something with two distinct and separate meanings which are simultaneously true and do not conflict with each other. I think that in a late part, along with his general world building, this leads to the material's ability to be the subject of constant exegesis 

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