Melifeather Posted January 12, 2017 Author Share Posted January 12, 2017 12 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said: Just finished looking through the chapter. I'm not sure that I have a lot of great ideas and probably need to look at it again, but I might just ramble here for a minute or two. The only thing that keeps popping into mind when I see that nine are the nine weirwood trees that stand in a circle in the grove where Jon says his Night's Watch Vows. The Greyjoy nine are all dedicated to the Drowned God. Were there at one time nine Starks/others that were dedicated to the Old Gods? Another bizarre notion. Those nine children came from three different wives. Could this also be referring to three different families? Most notably a combination of the Starks, Baratheons and Arryns? In the older generation there just so happen to be 3 Baratheon Brothers, 4 Stark siblings with the inclusion of Lyanna and one Arryn. They all end up as family by marriage or fostering bonds. As to the last bolded, originally I was thinking the same thing. I wonder though. Is it that Damphair is excluding Euron, or more that he is only considering the brothers that have already died? The two older brothers that he didn't know and Harlon would make up the four that he is referring to along with himself before he adds Urri. Another kind of strange notion... Could this actually be comparing him to Lyanna? The only girl of that Stark, Baratheon, Arryn generation? Where are her bones? She's dead, but have they made her strong. Is she dedicated to the Old Gods? Maybe a Greenseer? The followers of the drowned god carry driftwood cudgels. Do the followers of the old gods carry weirwood swords? Now this brings to mind the Dothraki. But I have no idea where if anywhere to go with that idea. Could look at this one two rather crazy ways... In inverse, Brandon Stark became a god and was murdered by a jealous king in order to bring the storm. Or in a more traditional echo was it Robert that became a King and and was just murdered by a jealous wife? Just as Joffrey sits the Iron throne instead of the actual heir Stannis? (Interesting in noting this, that Stannis also kills Renley who wrongly challenges his claim to the throne.) Or maybe its just as Aegon II sits the iron throne as opposed to Rhaenyra the true heir? This is also strangely reminiscent of what happens to Victarion before he is healed by Moquorro. Or if you wnat to push it an inversion to Jaime losing his hand as well Again, to further the idea that there is some sort of inversion between Lyanna and Aeron, here it was the Baratheons that cut him in half and imprisoned him in the bowels of Casterly Rock. Did someone, maybe Rhaegar Tararyen release Lyanna from the Bowels of Casterly Rock? She spent the rest of the war running around free? I think the thoughts of the nine weirwood trees is a smart one as the weirwoods certainly seem connected to the wights that parallel the drowned believers. Aegon IV had nine mistresses. The four notable bastards's mothers are thus: Bloodraven's mother = Mellisa Blackwood Bittersteel's mother = Barba Bracken Daemon Blackfyre's mother = Daena "the Defiant" Targaryen Shiera Seastar's mother: Lady Serenei of Lys, also called Sweet Serenei, was the ninth and final mistress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 12, 2017 Author Share Posted January 12, 2017 A couple thoughts popped into my head that I need to drop here for now. Aeron associates the storm that is brewing with Euron. Euron is Bloodraven's parallel inversion. Did Bloodraven "allow" Storm Lord Robert Baratheon defeat his Targaryen relative? Bloodraven was a loyalist and would always magically be in the right place at just the right time to rout the various threats to the throne, including all of the Blackfyre Pretenders, and yet Robert was viewed by Aerys as one of the greatest threats to the throne since Daemon, so why didn't Bloodraven do something to help Aerys? The other thought I had, had to do with Aeron and Aemon. Maester Aemon died on the journey south with Sam and Gilly to Oldtown. It'll be interesting to compare the parallels with that journey to the trials Aeron experiences in the Forsaken chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 16 hours ago, Feather Crystal said: I do like that "thirteen" has caused you to think of the Last Hero You know on the thirteen thing of the Last Hero, the count can be fifthteen and we can see it in the Goodbrother family, with their black and gold horn sigil. Three brothers born at relatively the same time and a dozen sisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said: Damphair had waking and dreaming memories of something bad when Euron came in the night for he and Urri. 14 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said: Another bizarre notion. Those nine children came from three different wives. Could this also be referring to three different families? @Feather Crystal Per your comment on the comparison of Euron's actions, I would agree with you. LmL, speculated that there maybe a trapped Garth in the trees or even possible that a dragon blooded person skinchanged a greenseer. I speculated that per Huzhor Amai's wearing of the Hairy Men King's skin as a cloak could also be a greenseer skinchanging a dragon person as expressed in saying of "having a monkey on my back". Hodor and Bran seem to fit this as well. The reason I quoted Lady Dyanna here is because Huzhor Amai had three different wives. One of which is the Gipps wife, Ravenous Reader noted that the Gipps wife with her lime-stiffened hair would resemble the weirwood trees. In also a curious trait, Huzhor Amai is the son of the last of the Fisher Queens' of the Silver Sea. (In a leap, I imagine that Huzhor Amai is akin to Heimdall born of nine mothers who were sea goddess or personified sea waves and was the Watchman on the Bifrost.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said: Did Bloodraven "allow" Storm Lord Robert Baratheon defeat his Targaryen relative? Bloodraven was a loyalist and would always magically be in the right place at just the right time to rout the various threats to the throne, including all of the Blackfyre Pretenders, and yet Robert was viewed by Aerys as one of the greatest threats to the throne since Daemon, so why didn't Bloodraven do something to help Aerys? We know that he needed access to Bran and Bloodraven did see him in those futures. So Bloodraven not lifting a finger to help Aerys is because he needed Bran to be born. I am not saying that Bloodraven is omnipotent but he is very close to it. He needed to engineer saviors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said: The other thought I had, had to do with Aeron and Aemon. Maester Aemon died on the journey south with Sam and Gilly to Oldtown. It'll be interesting to compare the parallels with that journey to the trials Aeron experiences in the Forsaken chapter. that's certainly possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 12, 2017 Author Share Posted January 12, 2017 6 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said: @Feather Crystal Per your comment on the comparison of Euron's actions, I would agree with you. LmL, speculated that there maybe a trapped Garth in the trees or even possible that a dragon blooded person skinchanged a greenseer. I speculated that per Huzhor Amai's wearing of the Hairy Men King's skin as a cloak isn't just a reference to skinchanging but could also be a greenseer skinchanging a dragon person as expressed in saying of "having a monkey on my back". Hodor and Bran seem to fit this as well. The reason I quoted Lady Dyanna here is because Huzhor Amai had three different wives. One of which is the Gipps wife, Ravenous Reader noted that the Gipps wife with her lime-stiffened hair would resemble the weirwood trees. In also a curious trait, Huzhor Amai is the son of the last of the Fisher Queens' of the Silver Sea. (In a leap, I imagine that Huzhor Amai is akin to Heimdall born of nine mothers who were sea goddess or personified sea waves and was the Watchman on the Bifrost.) I'm shocked that I recall none of this stuff! Is this in the books themselves or the World book? Regarding your comment about Bloodraven needing Bran...I think Bloodraven's intentions are confusing, because however the warding was manipulated or removed is what caused magic and the white walkers to return in the first place. If Bloodraven didn't do the removing then we need to seriously consider Euron's abilities and whether or not we can unearth any clues that he's to blame. He certainly has motives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said: I'm shocked that I recall none of this stuff! Is this in the books themselves or the World book? the World Book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 12 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said: .I think Bloodraven's intentions are confusing, because however the warding was manipulated or removed is what caused magic and the white walkers to return in the first place. If Bloodraven didn't do the removing then we need to seriously consider Euron's abilities and whether or not we can unearth any clues that he's to blame. He certainly has motives. More than likely it was that other Godly Man, Craster as the person who facilitated the tampering of the wards that confined the WWs to the Heart of Winter. Balon's death conveniently during a storm was a little too good of a timing. How did Euron know that Balon had declared himself king again? I tend to think that Euron wanted to eliminate competition for Lord Paramount of the Iron Islands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 12, 2017 Author Share Posted January 12, 2017 1 hour ago, Pain killer Jane said: the World Book I have the World Book, but I haven't read all of it. That stuff is interesting and I'll have to take a gander! 46 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said: More than likely it was that other Godly Man, Craster as the person who facilitated the tampering of the wards that confined the WWs to the Heart of Winter. Balon's death conveniently during a storm was a little too good of a timing. How did Euron know that Balon had declared himself king again? I tend to think that Euron wanted to eliminate competition for Lord Paramount of the Iron Islands. I think Craster has always given his male sons "to the wood", otherwise wouldn't there be older male children if he has only recently begun? If this is true then he's not the one that does the actual blood letting, and someone else is doing the collecting and sacrificing. If Bloodraven's actions are offensive (vs defensive) movements, then the Children might be to blame for collecting and sacrificing. I realize the mummer's version presents the return as outside their control, but wouldn't that require an as yet unidentified third party? Mance throws up some red flags, at least for me, since he has been confirmed as visiting Craster. His cover was to ask Craster to join his group, but how long has Mance been gathering wildlings? Traveling all over the north gathering all the clans together surely took a long time and longer than the time frame starting at when the direwolf mother and pups were discovered and before Jon went to the Wall. That time period doesn't seem long enough for Mance to react to a sudden appearance of white walkers and wights. It seems more like he already knew about them long before Benjen went missing and Othor and Jafer were brought back to the Wall. Maybe he knew about them, because he's the one that's been feeding the weirwoods? As for Euron, he's the Crow's Eye after all and has the crow's view looking down from above. Again, it raises red flags. How best to know about such things than to be the one pulling the strings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSister1001 Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 20 hours ago, Feather Crystal said: Thank you! I am blushing at your kind compliments! Excellent observation regarding 3s and religion! Both drowned believers and raised wights could arguably be related to their respective religions. The drowned believers are of their Drowned God, and the raised wights come from sacrifices to the old gods. Well, that is my opinion anyways! I brought this up in the current Heresy discussion. I was commenting on the Old Nan story about how the Others feed their dead servants on the flesh of human children. My position is that the greenseers are the dead servants. We already suspect that the weirwoods drink blood and that blood sacrifice is necessary to work ice magic, so giving children "to the wood" is the same thing as feeding them to the weirwoods, which in turn is feeding the greenseers. Good call! Quote HAR! I was learning inversions in grade school y'all! Sounds about right. :) 20 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said: well if we are doing numbers I like the cannibalism of numbers why is 6 afraid of 7? because 7 ate (8) 9. This is in reference to the Faith of 7 and 9 the religious number of the North and the rampant cannibalism in the series. Btw, the 9 in terms of rl mythology was holy to the Norse as it represented the 9 worlds along Yggdrasil and other stuff. Haha! That one always makes me giggle. Right! Forgive my slip. I've been out of the books for a few months and I totally spaced his Norse connections. 18 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said: We can draw parallels between the drowned men and the wights in reference to The Thing that Came in the Night. On other threads, I likened the Thing that came in the Night in conjunction with Patchface's presence at the Wall to the Pied Piper of Hamelin. A guy that dressed in motley that lead rats away with a pipe. When the town of Hamlin refused to pay him, he came back dressed hunting greens and led the children of the town away and drowned them. While Patchface is dressed in motley of Red and Green, Aeron is also dressed in motley. And curious here, Aeron's appearance can be likened to Drogo and Drogo to Patchface. And obvious Patchface can be counted as a Drowned Man. Very cool! We also have "dead things in the water". IMO that's telling us flat out that there will be issues with the Drowned Men when the Long Night falls. 18 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said: Just finished looking through the chapter. I'm not sure that I have a lot of great ideas and probably need to look at it again, but I might just ramble here for a minute or two. The only thing that keeps popping into mind when I see that nine are the nine weirwood trees that stand in a circle in the grove where Jon says his Night's Watch Vows. The Greyjoy nine are all dedicated to the Drowned God. Were there at one time nine Starks/others that were dedicated to the Old Gods? Another bizarre notion. Those nine children came from three different wives. Could this also be referring to three different families? Most notably a combination of the Starks, Baratheons and Arryns? In the older generation there just so happen to be 3 Baratheon Brothers, 4 Stark siblings with the inclusion of Lyanna and one Arryn. They all end up as family by marriage or fostering bonds. As to the last bolded, originally I was thinking the same thing. I wonder though. Is it that Damphair is excluding Euron, or more that he is only considering the brothers that have already died? The two older brothers that he didn't know and Harlon would make up the four that he is referring to along with himself before he adds Urri. Another kind of strange notion... Could this actually be comparing him to Lyanna? The only girl of that Stark, Baratheon, Arryn generation? Where are her bones? She's dead, but have they made her strong. Is she dedicated to the Old Gods? Maybe a Greenseer? The followers of the drowned god carry driftwood cudgels. Do the followers of the old gods carry weirwood swords? Now this brings to mind the Dothraki. But I have no idea where if anywhere to go with that idea. Could look at this one two rather crazy ways... In inverse, Brandon Stark became a god and was murdered by a jealous king in order to bring the storm. Or in a more traditional echo was it Robert that became a King and and was just murdered by a jealous wife? Just as Joffrey sits the Iron throne instead of the actual heir Stannis? (Interesting in noting this, that Stannis also kills Renley who wrongly challenges his claim to the throne.) Or maybe its just as Aegon II sits the iron throne as opposed to Rhaenyra the true heir? This is also strangely reminiscent of what happens to Victarion before he is healed by Moquorro. Or if you wnat to push it an inversion to Jaime losing his hand as well Again, to further the idea that there is some sort of inversion between Lyanna and Aeron, here it was the Baratheons that cut him in half and imprisoned him in the bowels of Casterly Rock. Did someone, maybe Rhaegar Tararyen release Lyanna from the Bowels of Casterly Rock? She spent the rest of the war running around free? Nice! I feel like my rusty old hinge of a brain is getting a little much needed WD40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSister1001 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Re: Craster - yes, he's always given the boys. Re: BR's lack of participation in saving his family...I think he knew it had to happen. Dany needed to go through what she went through to birth the dragons. And the only way for that to happen was for their family to all but die out. She's the phoenix. The dragon's are paramount to fighting the Others. Means to an end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 13, 2017 Author Share Posted January 13, 2017 7 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said: Good call! Sounds about right. Haha! That one always makes me giggle. Right! Forgive my slip. I've been out of the books for a few months and I totally spaced his Norse connections. Very cool! We also have "dead things in the water". IMO that's telling us flat out that there will be issues with the Drowned Men when the Long Night falls. Nice! I feel like my rusty old hinge of a brain is getting a little much needed WD40. That is an interesting observation...the dead things in the water being foreshadowing for the Drowned followers, although you could say the Nights Watch are parallels to the Drowned followers too, because when they die beyond the Wall they rise again as wights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 13, 2017 Author Share Posted January 13, 2017 4 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said: Re: Craster - yes, he's always given the boys. Re: BR's lack of participation in saving his family...I think he knew it had to happen. Dany needed to go through what she went through to birth the dragons. And the only way for that to happen was for their family to all but die out. She's the phoenix. The dragon's are paramount to fighting the Others. Means to an end. I guess it depends upon whether or not Bloodraven is responsible for bringing the white walkers back. Can another group sacrifice to the weirwoods and still get a white walker? How would you force the old gods to make something just because you fed the trees? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 9 hours ago, Feather Crystal said: If Bloodraven's actions are offensive (vs defensive) movements, then the Children might be to blame for collecting and sacrificing. I realize the mummer's version presents the return as outside their control, but wouldn't that require an as yet unidentified third party? I could see the Children doing something like that. Unless it was like the plot of the Children of Earth novels, where the clan took pity on a child of the Others. Hmm.....unless the ward confining the Others to the Heart of Winter was only a temporary seal or as some suggested the wall needed to be manned at full capacity to keep the wall's wards in place. I always found the saying that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. 9 hours ago, Feather Crystal said: Maybe he knew about them, because he's the one that's been feeding the weirwoods? I seem to remember that someone said that Mance's excavations for the horn to take down the Wall had unleashed ghosts or was that in the show? Mance is another one of those motley singing fools dreaming of being a king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 On 1/11/2017 at 7:24 PM, Lady Dyanna said: hose nine children came from three different wives. Could this also be referring to three different families? Most notably a combination of the Starks, Baratheons and Arryns? In terms of three wives branching off into families, we have Jocelyn Stark who married Benedict Royce and had three daughters that married into Vale houses; Waynwood (This would probably put Harry the Heir also Heir to the North as well as the Vale), Corbray (so Lyn and his Lady Forlorn maybe candidates for Lordship of the North), and Templeton (whose head of house is termed the "Knight of Ninestars" and their sigil has a 7 pointed star in the middle; 7-9). Lyn, the Waynwoods, and the Royces have been extremely important in the Vale proceedings and bound to make more things happen. Lyn shares similarities to Euron as does his 'friend' Littlefinger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 14, 2017 Author Share Posted January 14, 2017 On 1/12/2017 at 10:59 PM, Pain killer Jane said: I could see the Children doing something like that. Unless it was like the plot of the Children of Earth novels, where the clan took pity on a child of the Others. Hmm.....unless the ward confining the Others to the Heart of Winter was only a temporary seal or as some suggested the wall needed to be manned at full capacity to keep the wall's wards in place. I always found the saying that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. I seem to remember that someone said that Mance's excavations for the horn to take down the Wall had unleashed ghosts or was that in the show? Mance is another one of those motley singing fools dreaming of being a king. Was it you or @ravenous reader that made comparisons between Aeron and Patchface with regards to their wearing motley? Would you do us the honor of bringing some of the highlights and share them here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 59 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said: Was it you or @ravenous reader that made comparisons between Aeron and Patchface with regards to their wearing motley? Would you do us the honor of bringing some of the highlights and share them here? I think it was @ravenous reader or LmL mentioned it or some else mentioned it in one of LmL's threads. I don't remember. I can try to do it but Ravenous Reader would be much better at the comparison. i just realized you know who else is similar to Aeron is Davos. Nearly drowning and Davos going to the merman' court at Whitehabor is similar to the Watery halls of the Drowned God. The inversion there is Aeron was caused to drown by Stannis's Fury. Davos drowned in service of Stannis's fury. Btw I should mention that Aeron's ship was called Golden Storm, Aurane Waters, the bastard of Driftmark's name can be Gold Rain as Au is the symbol for Gold in chemistry and Rane is just another spelling of rain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 14, 2017 Author Share Posted January 14, 2017 2 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said: I think it was @ravenous reader or LmL mentioned it or some else mentioned it in one of LmL's threads. I don't remember. I can try to do it but Ravenous Reader would be much better at the comparison. i just realized you know who else is similar to Aeron is Davos. Nearly drowning and Davos going to the merman' court at Whitehabor is similar to the Watery halls of the Drowned God. The inversion there is Aeron was caused to drown by Stannis's Fury. Davos drowned in service of Stannis's fury. Btw I should mention that Aeron's ship was called Golden Storm, Aurane Waters, the bastard of Driftmark's name can be Gold Rain as Au is the symbol for Gold in chemistry and Rane is just another spelling of rain. You are so right! I hadn't considered Davos, but now that you've pointed it out it cannot be denied! I may be giving away my age here, but on an old tv show, The Facts of Life, Natalie was studying the elemental chart and was using word association to remember them all and for gold she said, "A U, give me back my watch!" lol, I'll never forget that one as long as I live! hahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 13 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said: You are so right! I hadn't considered Davos, but now that you've pointed it out it cannot be denied! I may be giving away my age here, but on an old tv show, The Facts of Life, Natalie was studying the elemental chart and was using word association to remember them all and for gold she said, "A U, give me back my watch!" lol, I'll never forget that one as long as I live! hahaha Lol. A child of the eighties. I used to watch the reruns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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