Melifeather Posted January 14, 2017 Author Share Posted January 14, 2017 1 minute ago, Pain killer Jane said: A child of the eighties. LOL, I'll let you keep thinking that! hahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 On January 9, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Feather Crystal said: Welcome to the reread project of the titled chapters! While I am your host, there are friends that I have invited to help me get started. Amongst them are @LynnS , @ravenous reader , @Pain killer Jane , @Lady Dyanna , @Seams , @wolfmaid7 , @WeaselPie , @Mace Cooterian , @JNR , @DarkSister1001 , @Queen of Winter , @Sly Wren , @Cowboy Dan , @The Snowfyre Chorus , @Prince of Ghost , @Regular John Umber , and @Yield. Please feel free to invite anyone whom you think would enjoy this discussion. Thanks, Feather! A great project and I'll be back when I get time to absorb it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 14, 2017 Author Share Posted January 14, 2017 49 minutes ago, Sly Wren said: Thanks, Feather! A great project and I'll be back when I get time to absorb it all. You're welcome! I look forward to your contributions! No hurry. I think I was wrong to try and place a time limit on it! We move on after everyone says all they want to say about this chapter. But I am beginning to believe that this chapter is setting the stage for all the titled chapters. It's our primer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 On 1/14/2017 at 10:30 AM, Pain killer Jane said: I think it was @ravenous reader or LmL mentioned it or some else mentioned it in one of LmL's threads. I don't remember. I can try to do it but Ravenous Reader would be much better at the comparison. On the 'nennymoan thread,' it was @Little Scribe of Naath who first identified the parallel between the colors worn by Aeron's 'drowned men' and the Others, as a means towards interpreting Patchface's riddles, particularly the one about the blue, green and black flames under the sea, and the old fish eat the young fish. Along with her, @LmL developed the conversation further; it's worth a read. Links to the relevant conversations: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/143573-nennymoans-and-merlings-more-patchface-tinfoil/&do=findComment&comment=7757784 http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/143573-nennymoans-and-merlings-more-patchface-tinfoil/&do=findComment&comment=7754909 While Patchface has a different color scheme (green and red), there is still the 'patched,' 'mottled,' 'dappled' and 'piebald' pattern relating Patchface, the Damphair and his drowned men, the Children of the Forest and Bloodraven respectively (and others who wear motley or patched-together outfits like Tyrion after his own near-drowning experience; and importantly the variegated 'tree-camouflage' worn by the Others: 'Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took'). The 'mottling' relates to 'motley' and thereby to fools, and another of Patchface's cryptic prophecies, 'clever bird, clever man, clever fool'. Personally, I think this drowning or near-drowning motif in the end relates to greenseers and greenseeing -- they are the clever birds, men and fools who sacrifice themselves (and others) for power. Previously, I've identified the symbolic connection between drowning and greenseeing -- giving rise to the 'green sea'='green see' pun -- which is how I have interpreted the 'under the sea' prefacing each of Patchface's utterances. A 'near-death' experience, particularly 'near-drowning,' either literal or figurative, followed by spiritual enlightenment as seems to have occurred for a number of characters is not so different symbolically, if you think about it, from being 'half-dead,' 'undead,' 'half corpse-half tree,' like the archetypal figure Odin sacrificed on the tree of life Yggdrasil in order to acquire higher knowledge etc. If you want to read more about it, it's in my 'nennymoan' musings (I think you have the link?); if you don't want to read the whole thing, check under the paragraph 'Drowning as a metaphor for greenseeing' and also 'Bran's phenomenology of greenseeing.' The Grey King and his entourage for example is reminiscent of all of the above figures I've mentioned (the robes or gowns or tapestries of 'woven silver seaweed' -- which Aeron also sports -- ,are the equivalent of the motley, and the weirwood crown the equivalent of the jester's cap with it's ringing bells; in Aeron's case he has a driftwood cudgel in place of the crown or cap, alluding to the weirwood). Quote i just realized you know who else is similar to Aeron is Davos. Nearly drowning and Davos going to the merman' court at Whitehabor is similar to the Watery halls of the Drowned God. The inversion there is Aeron was caused to drown by Stannis's Fury. Davos drowned in service of Stannis's fury. Nice! You're referring to Stannis's ship called 'Fury,' in addition to the Baratheon motto being 'Ours is the fury'? I love that passage where Davos visits the Merman's court. It's suffused with water and fish imagery; even the walls are painted to resemble the sea, so that symbolically the proceedings are taking place in a kind of underworld -- 'under the sea'! There are so many parallels to the Grey King's court too. Quote A Dance with Dragons - Davos III Two marble mermen flanked his lordship's court, Fishfoot's smaller cousins. As the guards threw open the doors, a herald slammed the butt of his staff against an old plank floor. "Ser Davos of House Seaworth," he called in a ringing voice. As many times as he had visited White Harbor, Davos had never set foot inside the New Castle, much less the Merman's Court. Its walls and floor and ceiling were made of wooden planks notched cunningly together and decorated with all the creatures of the sea. As they approached the dais, Davos trod on painted crabs and clams and starfish, half-hidden amongst twisting black fronds of seaweed and the bones of drowned sailors. On the walls to either side, pale sharks prowled painted blue-green depths, whilst eels and octopods slithered amongst rocks and sunken ships. Shoals of herring and great codfish swam between the tall arched windows. Higher up, near where the old fishing nets drooped down from the rafters, the surface of the sea had been depicted. To his right a war galley stroked serene against the rising sun; to his left, a battered old cog raced before a storm, her sails in rags. Behind the dais a kraken and grey leviathan were locked in battle beneath the painted waves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue-Eyed Wolf Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Just brainstorming more parallels/inversions between Robert Arryn and Aeron Damphair and the theme of Prophet. Not sure what it means yet, but I'm kicking it around. 1) The uncut, long hair of an ascetic or hermit. I think Damphair does fit that description as well as Prophet. There's another example of an an ascetic/hermit that is also a prophet is the one that lived on the Fingers who hadn't washed in "forty years" (one could assume he probably didn't get haircuts either). He prophecized Petyr becoming a "great man" to his father. Robert's hair has been allowed to grow and grow since Lysa died. The Eyrie is isolated, so Robert kinda lives like a hermit, preferring to keep to his own tiny household. 2) The dislike of maesters, especially their incompetency. Robert has a clear dislike for Maester Colemon. His treatments actually don't help Robert get any better and he's going along with this whole sweetsleep business like a weak-willed, mealy-mouth doormat. So there might be the common theme of incompetent medicine killing the patient... maybe. 3) The dislike of horses/mules, but uses them out of necessity coming up and down from the Eyrie. Might be for different reasons given. Robert doesn't like the smell and the trip is frightening. This might reflect a symbolic theme I'm thinking about, which I'll get to eventually. 4) There seems to be a mirror inversion between the Eyrie's halls and the Drowned God's halls. There's sky and sea, both great expanses of blue, but opposites. Falcons belong in the air and drowned men / krakens below the sea. Neither are land creatures maybe hence the aversion to riding horses/mules. They wear the respective colors of their elements. Robert often wears sky blue and Aeron wears sea colors. 5) Both are supposed to be weak, but in different ways. Aeron says he was weak in character, drinking, partying, while Balon was out doing glorious Ironborn things. Then he nearly died by drowning and was reborn, dedicated to the Drowned God. Robert is weak in body, but I don't think like Robin Greyjoy. He actually seems to be growing more perceptive about his situation (if you read the Alayne TWOW sample). Funny how urinating is a feature of their stories. Aeron used to perform pissing stunts to prove his manhood in an immature kind of way. Robert sometimes pisses himself, but it's a result of his "shaking sickness" and it's proof of his physical weakness. 6) I'm a subscriber to the theory of an avalanche in the Eyrie killing many people. Sweetrobin may be one of them. There's definitely recurring patterns of near-death experience to become a prophet all over the place. Being buried under snow is akin to drowning by water, like Aeron and Patchface. Should Robert survive a near-death experience like that, would he then meet the criteria of a prophet? I have my suspicions about that kid! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 1 hour ago, ravenous reader said: Nice! You're referring to Stannis's ship called 'Fury,' in addition to the Baratheon motto being 'Ours is the fury'? Yup, I am. 2 hours ago, ravenous reader said: Davos visits the Merman's court That is a beautiful scene. I just imagine that the merman's court is awe inspiring. Aside from everyone at the Merman's court, the one that interests me the most is Marlon Manderly, Lord Manderly's cousin whose armor has the Merling King's Helm and moving seaweed. The Battle of the Blackwater was ruined by the ship Swordfish (House Bar Emmon) which is just another name for a Marlin attacking the galley filled with Wild Fire. And Davos was stranded on the spears of the Merling King. Marlon Manderly's description sounds like the Grey King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 15, 2017 Author Share Posted January 15, 2017 16 hours ago, ravenous reader said: While Patchface has a different color scheme (green and red), there is still the 'patched,' 'mottled,' 'dappled' and 'piebald' pattern relating Patchface, the Damphair and his drowned men, the Children of the Forest and Bloodraven respectively (and others who wear motley or patched-together outfits like Tyrion after his own near-drowning experience). The 'mottling' relates to 'motley' and thereby to fools, and another of Patchface's cryptic prophecies, 'clever bird, clever man, clever fool'. Personally, I think this drowning or near-drowning motif in the end relates to greenseers and greenseeing -- they are the clever birds, men and fools who sacrifice themselves (and others) for power. Previously, I've identified the symbolic connection between drowning and greenseeing -- giving rise to the 'green sea'='green see' pun -- which is how I have interpreted the 'under the sea' prefacing each of Patchface's utterances. A 'near-death' experience, particularly 'near-drowning,' either literal or figurative, followed by spiritual enlightenment as seems to have occurred for a number of characters is not so different symbolically, if you think about it, from being 'half-dead,' 'undead,' 'half corpse-half tree,' like the archetypal figure Odin sacrificed on the tree of life Yggdrasil in order to acquire higher knowledge etc. I can't help but think about some other characters with the mottling, dappled, spotting...like Wenda the White Fawn. Fawns are dappled, and at the risk of getting ahead of this particular chapter I had made some connections between Wenda's spots and drowning in my essay on The Queenmaker chapter. Recall Cersei's childhood friend, Melara. Melara Hetherspoon was eleven years old when she died. She was slender and pretty, though she had freckles. Cersei remembers her as “healthy as a little horse”, which could be a symbolic connection to Lyanna. She was said to be bold, bolder than Jeyne Farman who fled when the three went to hear their futures from Maggy the Frog. Jeyne was terrified when Maggy opened her eyes to greet the visitors. Running away likely saved her life. Maggy told Melara that her death was close. Many years later, Cersei told Taena of Myr that Maggy’s prophecy was true, because Melara drowned in a well. Reading between the lines, IMO, Cersei may be the one that drowned Melara as a knee-jerk reaction to being afraid of Maggy the Frog's prophecy. Maybe by killing Melara she was symbolically killing the prophecy? The Lannisters have "drowning" and "wells" in their heritage. Tywin of course if famous for drowning the Reynes of Castamere by blocking the entrances to their subterranean home and diverting a stream in order to drown everyone inside. And I have to say the evidence points to Lann the Clever securing Casterly Rock in the same manner. Before I circle back to Wenda, there's another spotted character, Sylva Santagar, known as Spotted Sylva, and “the Lyseni”. Sylva suggests the reason why the Golden Company broke their contract was because the Lyseni bought them off. “Clever Lyseni,” Drey says, “Clever, craven Lyseni.” This phrasing is very similar to Patchface's, 'clever bird, clever man, clever fool'. Sylva Santagar is the heir of Ser Symon Santagar, the Knight of the Spottswood. Her nickname “Spotted” is from her freckles and also because she’s heir to Spottswood. After the Myrcella conspiracy plot is foiled, she was captured and later betrothed to the aged Lord Eldon of Estermont and sent to Greenstone to marry. Recall old Lord Estermont was one of the insulting matches Prince Doran proposed to Arianne. Wenda the White Fawn was said to be a member of the Kingswood Brotherhood which was a band of outlaws famous for kidnapping nobles and holding them for hostage. They are blamed for attacking Princess Elia and for injuring Ser Gerold Hightower. Merrett Frey, who was branded (on his butt I might add) by Wenda, referred to her as "that poxy bitch", which could just be insulting name calling or it could mean she was sick with red spots or had scars from some type of pox. Red spots can be a deadly disease to adults, and when it's mentioned in the same chapter as when Ser Arys brings Myrcella to a well to meet up with Arianne and friends, it emphasizes the connection between spots, wells, and death. 16 hours ago, ravenous reader said: As many times as he had visited White Harbor, Davos had never set foot inside the New Castle, much less the Merman's Court. Its walls and floor and ceiling were made of wooden planks notched cunningly together and decorated with all the creatures of the sea. As they approached the dais, Davos trod on painted crabs and clams and starfish, half-hidden amongst twisting black fronds of seaweed and the bones of drowned sailors. On the walls to either side, pale sharks prowled painted blue-green depths, whilst eels and octopods slithered amongst rocks and sunken ships. Shoals of herring and great codfish swam between the tall arched windows. Higher up, near where the old fishing nets drooped down from the rafters, the surface of the sea had been depicted. To his right a war galley stroked serene against the rising sun; to his left, a battered old cog raced before a storm, her sails in rags. Behind the dais a kraken and grey leviathan were locked in battle beneath the painted waves. I agree with PKJane. Wouldn't this be a beautiful room to walk into! Especially if there were some way to have dappled reflections from water shining up upon the sides of the room or on the ceiling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 On 1/15/2017 at 8:02 AM, Feather Crystal said: Sylva Santagar is the heir of Ser Symon Santagar, the Knight of the Spottswood. Her nickname “Spotted” is from her freckles and also because she’s heir to Spottswood. After the Myrcella conspiracy plot is foiled, she was captured and later betrothed to the aged Lord Eldon of Estermont and sent to Greenstone to marry. Recall old Lord Estermont was one of the insulting matches Prince Doran proposed to Arianne. Lord Estermont given his age would probably be related to Stannis, Robert, and Renly. Plus his sigil is a green turtle. The turtle has always been a symbol of immortality. And a Lord of Greenstone marrying a spotted woman (I love that her last name is Santa-gar as LmL pointed out a while ago that Santa is a sanitized version of the wild man of the woods. I bet the name should be read as Santa-Garth) echoes the Bloodstone emperor marrying the tiger woman as the Bloodstone is a green and red stone and House Santagar's sigil is a spotted cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 On 1/12/2017 at 6:53 PM, DarkSister1001 said: Nice! I feel like my rusty old hinge of a brain is getting a little much needed WD40. Too bad they don't make something like that for your back, right? On 1/12/2017 at 7:09 PM, Feather Crystal said: Can another group sacrifice to the weirwoods and still get a white walker? How would you force the old gods to make something just because you fed the trees? That would probably depend on what exactly a white walker is, wouldn't it? Is it really the old gods making the white walkers or is it something else? I've been bouncing the idea that the ww are just an immortal body for a greenseer in my mind now. What if this is something that really can just be accomplished through the use of magic? Is it possible that the method was somewhat lost in time, just like the making of Valyrian steel, but somehow came to the surface again recently? On 1/14/2017 at 10:30 AM, Pain killer Jane said: just realized you know who else is similar to Aeron is Davos. Nearly drowning and Davos going to the merman' court at Whitehabor is similar to the Watery halls of the Drowned God. The inversion there is Aeron was caused to drown by Stannis's Fury. Davos drowned in service of Stannis's fury. Nice call. This also makes me think of Tyrion almost drowning before JonCon rescues him when he's attacked by the stone men going under the bridge of dreams. Another funny coincidence with that one. What happens to both Davos and Tyrion soon after they are rescued from drowning. Both are imprisoned in some manner. Davos is sent to the cells in Dragonstone for his plan to murder Melisandre. Tyrion is captured by Jorah Mormont. On 1/14/2017 at 10:36 AM, Feather Crystal said: I may be giving away my age here, but on an old tv show, The Facts of Life, Natalie was studying the elemental chart and was using word association to remember them all and for gold she said, "A U, give me back my watch!" lol, I'll never forget that one as long as I live! hahaha I loved that show! I remember that episode. For years that was how I remembered the difference between the abbreviations for silver and gold! On 1/14/2017 at 6:15 PM, ravenous reader said: Personally, I think this drowning or near-drowning motif in the end relates to greenseers and greenseeing -- they are the clever birds, men and fools who sacrifice themselves (and others) for power. Previously, I've identified the symbolic connection between drowning and greenseeing -- giving rise to the 'green sea'='green see' pun -- which is how I have interpreted the 'under the sea' prefacing each of Patchface's utterances. A 'near-death' experience, particularly 'near-drowning,' either literal or figurative, followed by spiritual enlightenment as seems to have occurred for a number of characters is not so different symbolically, if you think about it, from being 'half-dead,' 'undead,' 'half corpse-half tree,' like the archetypal figure Odin sacrificed on the tree of life Yggdrasil in order to acquire higher knowledge etc. This is great! Have you considered the idea that instead of this being different metaphors for the exact same thing that it might instead be the markings of three different potential groups related to the different magics? You have what happened with Patchface (fool), which is very similar to what happens on the Iron Islands and also what happens on the Rhoyne with the stone men resulting from the water magic. But you also have the people that are working a type of earth magic. I think that this might have some sort of connection to all of these things in the water/ the mermaids old ones, etc. If you think about it, we also have the Crannogmen (men) from the neck poisoning everyone and winding up with everyone losing water, ie diarrhea, just like what happens in Essos with the Pale Mare. Then we have some sort of combination air/blood/spirit thing. (bird) Think about the ww seeming to almost form from the air, or the butterfly illness in Nath that is airborne, but people end up sweating blood. I know this all probably sounds like crazy rambling. It's really difficult to put into words. I just really think that everything that we're looking at might not necessarily be exactly the same, but all just a little different version of it. On 1/14/2017 at 7:20 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: I'm a subscriber to the theory of an avalanche in the Eyrie killing many people. Sweetrobin may be one of them. There's definitely recurring patterns of near-death experience to become a prophet all over the place. Being buried under snow is akin to drowning by water, There is definitely a ton of foreshadowing for that avalanche. It would make a ton of sense for Sweet Robin to be either one of the victims or it be a close call. I can see what you're saying about the snow, but in the same token, he isn't really tied to the water, but rather the air and birds. Maybe this might be a different type of resurrection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue-Eyed Wolf Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 20 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said: There is definitely a ton of foreshadowing for that avalanche. It would make a ton of sense for Sweet Robin to be either one of the victims or it be a close call. I can see what you're saying about the snow, but in the same token, he isn't really tied to the water, but rather the air and birds. Maybe this might be a different type of resurrection? I still don't have SR figured out. He's got tons of symbolism surrounding him and he's likely not literally a prophet or a greenseer, but then the question is what is George trying to teach us about prophets and/or greenseers through SR? That might be a whole other thread though. The only tie I could make is snow/ice is just another form of water and buried might be another form of drowning. Either way, you're cut off from air. Symbolicly, I wonder if there's a mirror image between water and air, maybe fish and birds too. The Ironborn have a dichotomy between the Drowned God and the Storm God, one of water and one of air. The only watery thing about SR might be that his eyes and nose are always runny. I may be spewing nonsense though. *Edit* Wait a sec... just noticed that SR's skin is described as "splotchy" Quote Robert was small for eight, a stick of a boy with splotchy skin and eyes that were always runny He may fit into that spotted / motley motif @Feather Crystal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 21, 2017 Author Share Posted January 21, 2017 On 1/20/2017 at 6:35 PM, Cowboy Dan said: Maybe it's a hand motif? Four fingers and a thumb? Very interesting observation. Bloodraven was Hand of the King for both Aerys I and Maekar I. On 1/20/2017 at 6:48 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: Wait a sec... just noticed that SR's skin is described as "splotchy" Quote Robert was small for eight, a stick of a boy with splotchy skin and eyes that were always runny He may fit into that spotted / motley motif I agree that there's something there. The splotchy skin, runny eyes...that kid is going to drown one way or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share Posted January 24, 2017 Cowboy Dan...just a quick note, because I'm heading out to work this morning, but I just wanted to say how much I loved your post! I cannot believe the obvious parallels between Damphair drowning the boy to Waymar! Well done! You are finding parallels which is the first step to identifying an inversion. The parallel helps us figure out who the inversion is about. I agree that the Drowned God was a greenseer, but I'm not so sure he's still alive? Can a human greenseer stay alive under water? I do believe though that you have found proof that the white walkers are servants of Bloodraven and the old gods. More later... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share Posted January 24, 2017 I just wanted to expand on some thoughts regarding the CPR type baptism of Drowned followers...it seems to be in memory of distant knowledge, and perhaps it is connected to how the wights beyond the Wall are raised. The ironborn's greenseer may have drowned, and their ancestors likely began the ritual trying to revive what they used to understand: that the cold air breathes life into the dead. So basically Bloodraven has supplanted the Drowned God. He can do what their Drowned God used to do thousands of years ago. So while the two "gods" are parallels, they are also inversions because the ironborn are resuscitated from drowning, but they are not undead like wights are. They really are alive, while the wights aren't truly alive. They are "fake" for lack of a better word. They are like puppets that the white walkers are able to manipulate using the small amount of spirit and memory left in their bones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 25, 2017 Author Share Posted January 25, 2017 11 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said: I try to think about everything in relation to everything else I agree that when trying to solve these inversion puzzles, everything needs to be considered what the relationship is to everything else. More on that thought in a bit. 11 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said: So the inversion is basically that the person/persons it's mirroring is flipped in some fundamental way and not just the specific flips like I was pointing out with the Dance? Yes, the inversion is a mirrored flip. I wish I could recall the specific flips in Dance that you are referring to. 11 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said: Giving a more literal twist on "what is dead may never die," greenseers can't die naturally because in a sense they are already dead, having given their consciousness to the magical heart. Perhaps you've got it backwards and the Drowned God supplanted the Frozen One? I'll have to certainly consider that, but part of the inversion theory is that history is repeating itself in reverse, so I guess it depends upon when the Others first came in the timeline versus when the ironborn's greenseer "drowned". IMO the ironborn's greenseer drowned during the time the hammer of waters came down upon Westeros, which I think most readers agree happened prior to the Long Night. 11 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said: Although I will say I think the wights might have a bit more memory or agency than we are lead to believe. Waymar tries to kill WIll because if you look at the prologue, Will failed to warn Waymar because then he would die but could have potentially saved Waymar from dying. Perhaps Waymar realized that and wants revenge? I agree the wights have some memory of their past life as evidenced by Othor's knowledge of the Lord Commander's quarters. Circling back to thinking about everything in relation to everything else...lets consider the Drowned God's followers and the wights. The followers aren't true believers until they are drowned by one of their priests and then resuscitated, so the wights have to have a prior existence before becoming wights. It seems wildlings and men of the Nights Watch can both become wights as long as their death occurs north of the Wall. The magical cold air so far does not seem to reach the men south of the Wall. Although we've seen on the mummer's version that they've been burning the dead. Did the Nights Watch always burn their dead, or did that become the norm after what happened with Othor and Jafer? In any case humans don't become "true believers" until they die north of the Wall and the cold winds raise them. So who is the priest that raises them? I was trying to find parallels between Aeron Damphair and Maester Aemon, but maybe there's someone else? If there is anyone else it should be a relative of Brynden Bloodraven Rivers. Is there enough evidence to suspect Mance Raydar is somehow the real hidden Targaryen in the story? It would make sense that the priest responsible for raising the dead would be beyond the Wall. Or is this a complete inversion and our priest is actually a priestess? Sierra Seastar's whereabouts are unknown. Little is said about what happened to her other than she chose Bloodraven over Bittersteel. Did she end up beyond the Wall? Technically the white walkers serve the role of priest, but I suspect human involvement is necessary in creating the white walkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 On 25.01.2017 at 2:01 PM, Feather Crystal said: Did the Nights Watch always burn their dead, or did that become the norm after what happened with Othor and Jafer? When Mormont & others examine the bodies and they noticed that eyes of Othor and Jafer are blue, somebody suggests burning them: Quote A silence fell over the wood. For a moment all they heard was Sam's heavy breathing and the wet sound of Dywen sucking on his teeth. Jon squatted beside Ghost. "Burn them," someone whispered. One of the rangers; Jon could not have said who. "Yes, burn them," a second voice urged. The Old Bear gave a stubborn shake of his head. "Not yet. I want Maester Aemon to have a look at them. We'll bring them back to the Wall." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 On 1/15/2017 at 11:02 AM, Feather Crystal said: I can't help but think about some other characters with the mottling, dappled, spotting...like Wenda the White Fawn. Fawns are dappled, and at the risk of getting ahead of this particular chapter I had made some connections between Wenda's spots and drowning in my essay on The Queenmaker chapter. While I don't know enough about Wenda in order to comment on her connection to drowning specifically (maybe you can elaborate and help me out!), apart from her affinity for 'burning her mark into the buttocks of her highborn captives' which links her to the marking motif; more generally consider that a 'spot' is a 'mark' in the sense of a blemish, in addition to it being a sign that someone is marked or singled out for greatness potentially, and either real or symbolic death. Wenda the white fawn burning a black fawn into a white buttocks is also an image rife with inversion for you to unpack! So, to the dappling, mottling, motley, spotting, piebald assortment of marks and tattoos, we might also add all those marked by burning (Jon, Victarion. Beric, etc). Sometimes this distinguishing 'mark' is literal, e.g. Bloodraven's raven-shaped birthmark (of the 'port-wine stain' variety, 'nevus flammeus' or 'firemark') or figurative, e.g. Bloodraven's albinism, although the very opposite of a mark being a depigmentation, nevertheless marks him out as different; even his bastardy is another kind of mark or 'stain' in society's eyes (to which we might add others with various afflictions or idiosyncrasies which make them stand out for some reason, such as Bran's crippling, Aemon's blindness, Sweetrobin's epilepsy, Tyrion's dwarfism etc.). Given that drowning is a metaphor for greenseeing, that 'drowning' is frequently coupled with 'spotting' imagery, and that greenseers like the Children of the Forest with whom they collaborate are marked or spotted (and certainly blemished or stained in the sense of morally tainted), we can say as a general rule that the spotting motif marks out those who are susceptible to third-eye opening in addition to being prone to engage in risky, morally questionable endeavors, although not all those who are susceptible to third-eye experiences are greenseers. The marked ones -- as in the case of the victims of Wenda's charred-arse (her version of 'scorched-earth') trademark -- may be greenseer thralls instead of overseers, just as Wenda's victims are 'owned' by her by branding (analagous to how branded cattle designate ownership). Theon, for example, who is also marked by his various mutilations in addition to the stigma of being a ward which marks him out for death, is more of a thrall to various people (first Ned, then Robb, then Ramsay and by the end of ADWD on his way to becoming Bran's 'well-trained raven,' in my opinion). A ward is basically a dead man walking under the shadow of the sword, as Theon expresses himself, having to live with the dark spectre of Ice hanging over him. I also believe Theon is marked in the eyes of the gods as a kinslayer, since the 'miller's boys' whom he burnt may have been his own seed, a crime for which he in turn bitterly forfeited his further reproductive potency. When he pledges himself to the 'old gods' at the heart tree, that is his true baptism, not the one he received from Aeron. Significantly, Theon is marked as Bran's man (just as Wenda claims her thralls in her name) in the mystical encounter with the heart tree, when he is marked -- or 'branded' (ha ha) -- by Bran's hand reaching out to claim him via the bloodstained hand of the heart tree brushing against his forehead (the site of the third eye). This action is similar to the blessing conferred by a priest, making Bran a priest of of the drowned just like Aeron. @Blue Tiger has also recently highlighted the quote where Ned predicts Bran would become the 'High Septon' which makes sense in this respect: On 1/23/2017 at 2:44 PM, Blue Tiger said: Quote The power wielded by these prophets of the Drowned God over the ironborn should not be underestimated. Only they could summon kingsmoots, and woe to the man, be he lord or king, who dared defy them. The greatest of the priests was the towering prophet Galon Whitestaff, so-called for the tall carved staff he carried everywhere to smite the ungodly. (In some tales his staff was made of weirwood, in others from one of Nagga's bones.) (The World of Ice and Fire) ...or weirwood is in fact Nagga's bones, as @LmL and many others have suggested I wonder if it's important that Ned thought Bran could become a High Septon, from GOT: Quote No," Ned said. He saw no use in lying to her. "Yet someday he may be the lord of a great holdfast and sit on the king's council. He might raise castles like Brandon the Builder, or sail a ship across the Sunset Sea, or enter your mother's Faith and become the High Septon." But he will never run beside his wolf again, he thought with a sadness too deep for words, or lie with a woman, or hold his own son in his arms. High Septon = (in terms of symbolism) a skinchanger? He has to abandon his old 'skin' - name, surname, past... And there's High Sparrow, a good nickname for somebody skinchanging a bird... The 'high septon' and 'high sparrow' preside over the other sparrows, the way the Great Other presumably presides over the Others in the hierarchy, making Bran a candidate for the 'Great Other' glimpsed by Melisandre. Apart from being one of Bran's 'well-trained ravens', kneeling at the foot of the heart tree also makes Theon one of Bran's direwolves, like the stone direwolves at the foot of the Kings in the crypt. Bran is an inversion, if you like, of Aeron. Aeron is a false prophet, heralding a false king (Euron), both of whom Theon ultimately rejects in his heart, aligning himself with the Starks, as demonstrated by his sincere communion with Bran at the tree and how he instinctively identifies with his 'namesake Theon Stark the hungry wolf' in the crypts. If the inversion holds, and Aeron and Euron are false usurpers of the North, that would potentially make Bran the true prophet heralding the true King of Winter and the North, namely Jon. The North is not 'under the sea' because the Ironborn invade, it's 'under the sea' due to the underground resistance movement welling up from the depths of its true heart -- the epicentre of which is and has always been the heart tree of Winterfell, in which Bran more truly than any other resides. I surmise it's from there that the movements of the forces of Winter and the Others are conducted. As Seams and many others have pointed out, a 'heart tree' can additionally be a wordplay on 'hart tree' and a white hart is a white fawn, so Bran is a kind of Wenda figure wielding his burning brand! @Blue-Eyed Wolf also mentioned how seers are often marked by their wild, streaming halos or manes of hair. In this respect, note Aeron's other name 'Damphair' is a wordplay, firstly of 'damp hair' and secondly, in German 'dampf' which means 'steam' plus 'air'; similarly, Bran has hair 'kissed by fire.' And so I leave you, once again, with the concluding excerpt of Coleridge's classic poem 'Kubla Khan,' on which GRRM has drawn in painting the archetype of Bloodraven's cavern and the figure of the prophet-seer-artist: Quote And all who heard should see them there, And all should cry, Beware! Beware! His flashing eyes, his floating hair! Weave a circle round him thrice, And close your eyes with holy dread For he on honey-dew hath fed, And drunk the milk of Paradise. I agree with @Cowboy Dan (great insights all round, by the way ) that Aeron is going through the motions of being a prophet, performing the ritual, without being the real deal himself. With reference to the poem above, Aeron was 'drunk' in the sense of drowning himself in alcohol, followed by drowning in the sea; and now waits for a sign from a god who does not answer. However, Bran is the true greenseer communing in the language of the trees, who has 'drunk the milk of Paradise' when he imbibed the weirwood bole/bowl, conferring power upon him which fittingly is described as, among other things, a 'green fountain' of immortality and 'mother's 'milk', and in line with the Coleridge poem, tastes of 'honey': Quote A Dance with Dragons - Bran III The singers made Bran a throne of his own, like the one Lord Brynden sat, white weirwood flecked with red, dead branches woven through living roots. They placed it in the great cavern by the abyss, where the black air echoed to the sound of running water far below. Of soft grey moss they made his seat. Once he had been lowered into place, they covered him with warm furs. There he sat, listening to the hoarse whispers of his teacher. "Never fear the darkness, Bran." The lord's words were accompanied by a faint rustling of wood and leaf, a slight twisting of his head. "The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother'smilk. Darkness will make you strong." A Dance with Dragons - Bran III "No, Bran." Now Meera sounded sad. "It is given to a few to drink of that green fountain whilst still in mortal flesh, to hear the whisperings of the leaves and see as the trees see, as the gods see," said Jojen. "Most are not so blessed. The gods gave me only greendreams. My task was to get you here. My part in this is done." A Dance with Dragons - Bran III He ate. It had a bitter taste, though not so bitter as acorn paste. The first spoonful was the hardest to get down. He almost retched it right back up. The second tasted better. The third was almost sweet. The rest he spooned up eagerly. Why had he thought that it was bitter? It tasted of honey, of new-fallen snow, of pepper and cinnamon and the last kiss his mother ever gave him. The empty bowl slipped from his fingers and clattered on the cavern floor. "I don't feel any different. What happens next?" What I'm saying is that the Ironborn are stuck in the physical reality of the 'sea', whereas Bran has made the metaphysical leap to the 'see'. This power has been acquired at great cost. Whereas Aeron only plays at sacrificing people, Bran has actually (albeit unknowingly) partaken of human flesh, including that of his friend Jojen. Some quotes to illustrate the 'marking' concept further: Quote A Dance with Dragons - Bran III "I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children," Bran said. "The singers, I mean." "In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers." Bran did not understand, so he asked the Reeds. "Do you like to read books, Bran?" Jojen asked him. A Dance with Dragons - The Ugly Little Girl "No." "I would hope not. You are a servant of the Many-Faced God, and we who serve Him of Many Faces give his gift only to those who have been marked and chosen." She understood. Kill him. Kill only him. In this context of 'spotting' and 'marking,' it might also be useful to look at tattooing: Quote A Clash of Kings - Prologue The boy washed up on the third day. Maester Cressen had come down with the rest, to help put names to the dead. When they found the fool he was naked, his skin white and wrinkled and powdered with wet sand. Cressen had thought him another corpse, but when Jommy grabbed his ankles to drag him off to the burial wagon, the boy coughed water and sat up. To his dying day, Jommy had sworn that Patchface's flesh was clammy cold. No one ever explained those two days the fool had been lost in the sea. The fisherfolk liked to say a mermaid had taught him to breathe water in return for his seed. Patchface himself had said nothing. The witty, clever lad that Lord Steffon had written of never reached Storm's End; the boy they found was someone else, broken in body and mind, hardly capable of speech, much less of wit. Yet his fool's face left no doubt of who he was. It was the fashion in the Free City of Volantis to tattoo the faces of slaves and servants; from neck to scalp the boy's skin had been patterned in squares of red and green motley. "The wretch is mad, and in pain, and no use to anyone, least of all himself," declared old Ser Harbert, the castellan of Storm's End in those years. "The kindest thing you could do for that one is fill his cup with the milk of the poppy. A painless sleep, and there's an end to it. He'd bless you if he had the wit for it." But Cressen had refused, and in the end he had won. Whether Patchface had gotten any joy of that victory he could not say, not even today, so many years later. It's interesting that in addition to being tattooed in ink on his neck (just like Bloodraven), Patchface has been 'tattooed' by the action of the sea, which is a kind of inverse tattoo, a sandblasting and stippling which removes color instead of applying it: 'his skin white and wrinkled and powdered with sand' (again, echoing Bloodraven's albinism and mummified, corpselike state). Thus, being wed to the tree is like being wed to the sea. (again green see = green sea); it marks a person irrevocably. Besides the connection to Bloodraven, Patchface is also by implication aligned with Bran. Notice the similar sentiments towards Patchface's misfortune as expressed by Ser Harbert advocating the 'kindness' of putting the 'wretch' out of his misery which would be a 'blessing,' which are remarkably similar to those about the benefits of 'mercy killing' injured children as expressed by Cersei and then Jaime at the breakfast table the day after they had colluded to chuck Bran from the window in AGOT (I don't believe for a moment that those thoughts of 'putting down' Bran like a sick horse or dog which Joff supposedly 'overheard' originated with Robert). Bran is the rising 'prophet', analogous to the 'stand-in' prophets represented by Aeron/Damphair and Patchface: Quote A Feast for Crows - The Prophet They had built a shelter for the priest just above the tideline. Gladly he crawled into it, after he had drowned his newest followers. My god, he prayed, speak to me in the rumble of the waves, and tell me what to do. The captains and the kings await your word. Who shall be our king in Balon's place? Sing to me in the language of leviathan, that I may know his name. Tell me, O Lord beneath the waves, who has the strength to fight the storm on Pyke? Though his ride to Hammerhorn had left him weary, Aeron Damphair was restless in his driftwood shelter, roofed over with black weeds from the sea. The clouds rolled in to cloak the moon and stars, and the darkness lay as thick upon the sea as it did upon his soul. The shelter of the drowned god's priest is a bit like Bloodraven's cave. Constructed predominantly of driftwood, to which Nagga the pale demon tree Ygg is also compared, it's an innocuous version of the cave whose columns and roof are formed by the weirwoods in Bloodraven's cavern. It's built just above the tideline, just as Bloodraven's cave is located north of the Wall -- another symbolic 'tideline'. Except -- and this is where the inversion of the symbolism comes in -- since the expanse north of the wall represents 'under the sea' territory (the underworld), Bloodraven and Bran are actually located under the sea and underground, whereas Aeron/Damphair has retreated out of the sea to drier ground, above ground, on the other side of the partition. Imagine the 'tideline' as the highest extent on the beach of the sea, analogous to the Wall as the highest extent on the continent /Westeros of the advancing sea of ice (whether understood as a glacier, the wave of migrating Wildlings, the rising tide of wights and Others riding the 'winds of Winter', or the parallel world in space -- also a sea... That's why we call the craft daring to voyage into its unknown depths 'space ships' -- in which there may be, according to @LmL's compelling theory, an ice moon meteor on the way, whereby the 'tide line' would be represented by the atmosphere of the planet, analogous to the Wall. So, earth is caught or sandwiched between two seas -- the one above and the one below.) Aeron prays to the drowned god beneath the waves for a word. If Bran and Bloodraven are the entities 'under the sea,' does that make one or both of them 'the drowned god'? Is singing the 'language of Leviathan' the equivalent of the song of the earth or True Tongue? Is there a difference between the waves 'rumbling' and the leaves 'rustling'? Green sea = green see. Quote A Storm of Swords - Daenerys II An old city, this, she reflected, but not so populous as it was in its glory, nor near so crowded as Qarth or Pentos or Lys. Her litter came to a sudden halt at the cross street, to allow a coffle of slaves to shuffle across her path, urged along by the crack of an overseer's lash. These were no Unsullied, Dany noted, but a more common sort of men, with pale brown skins and black hair. There were women among them, but no children. All were naked. Two Astapori rode behind them on white asses, a man in a red silk tokar and a veiled woman in sheer blue linen decorated with flakes of lapis lazuli. In her red-black hair she wore an ivory comb. The man laughed as he whispered to her, paying no more mind to Dany than to his slaves, nor the overseer with his twisted five-thonged lash, a squat broad Dothraki who had the harpy and chains tattooed proudly across his muscular chest. "Bricks and blood built Astapor," Whitebeard murmured at her side, "and bricks and blood her people." First and foremost, slaves are tattooed, making prophets slaves, despite their elevated stature. The acquisition of power goes hand in hand with servitude to that power, which entails paying a price for that power. Accordingly, the greenseers -- the 'prophets' or 'seers' in this equation -- are enslaved to the tree for its inscrutable purposes, just as they enslave the tree for their own purposes. This relation is evident in how Bloodraven is bound, pinioned, and penetrated by the tendrils of the tree -- which resemble the tentacles of the Kraken. Quote A Dance with Dragons - The Merchant's Man Quentyn would have preferred to walk, but they were miles from their inn. Besides, the innkeep at the Merchant's House had warned him that traveling afoot would taint them in the eyes of foreign captains and the native-born Volantenes alike. Persons of quality traveled by palanquin, or in the back of a hathay … and as it happened the innkeep had a cousin who owned several such contrivances and would be pleased to serve them in this matter. Their driver was one of the cousin's slaves, a small man with a wheel tattooed upon one cheek, naked but for a breechclout and a pair of sandals. His skin was the color of teak, his eyes chips of flint. After he had helped them up onto the cushioned bench between the cart's two huge wooden wheels, he clambered onto the elephant's back. "The Merchant's House," Quentyn told him, "but go along the wharves." Beyond the waterfront and its breezes, the streets and alleys of Volantis were hot enough to drown a man in his own sweat, at least on this side of the river. It's notable that the mark of a slave is often tattooed on the face, neck or head. Here, it's on the cheek which is interesting to compare to Wenda who brands those she vanquishes on another type of 'cheek' -- (the 'cheek' of it...)! Quote A Storm of Swords - Epilogue From somewhere deep within the castle, faint music came drifting through the trees. Merrett found himself shivering, despite his cloak. He pulled open his waterskin and had another drink of wine. I could just get back on my horse, ride to Oldtown, and drink the gold away. No good ever came from dealing with outlaws. That vile little bitch Wenda had burned a fawn into the cheek of his arse while she had him captive. No wonder his wife despised him. I have to go through with this. Petyr Pimple might be Lord of the Crossing one day, Edwyn has no sons and Black Walder's only got bastards. Petyr will remember who came to get him. He took another swallow, corked the skin up, and led his palfrey through broken stones, gorse, and thin wind-whipped trees, following the sounds to what had been the castle ward. Quote The driver shouted something at his elephant in the local tongue. The beast began to move, trunk swaying from side to side. The cart lurched along behind her, the driver hooting at sailors and slaves alike to clear the way. It was easy enough to tell one from the other. The slaves were all tattooed: a mask of blue feathers, a lightning bolt that ran from jaw to brow, a coin upon the cheek, a leopard's spots, a skull, a jug. Maester Kedry said there were five slaves for every free man in Volantis though he had not lived long enough to verify his estimate. He had perished on the morning the corsairs swarmed aboard the Meadowlark. Quentyn lost two other friends that same day—Willam Wells with his freckles and his crooked teeth, fearless with a lance, and Cletus Yronwood, handsome despite his lazy eye, always randy, always laughing. Cletus had been Quentyn's dearest friend for half his life, a brother in all but blood. "Give your bride a kiss for me," Cletus had whispered to him, just before he died. A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VI And the whores were out. River or sea, a port was a port, and wherever you found sailors, you'd find whores. Is that what my father meant? Is that where whores go, to the sea? The whores of Lannisport and King's Landing were free women. Their sisters of Selhorys were slaves, their bondage indicated by the tears tattooed beneath their right eyes. Old as sin and twice as ugly, the lot of them. It was almost enough to put a man off whoring. Tyrion felt their eyes upon them as he waddled by, and heard them whispering to one another and giggling behind their hands. You would think they had never seen a dwarf before. A squad of Volantene spearmen stood guard at the river gate. Torchlight gleamed off the steel claws that jutted from their gauntlets. Their helms were tiger's masks, the faces beneath marked by green stripes tattooed across both cheeks. The slave soldiers of Volantis were fiercely proud of their tiger stripes, Tyrion knew. Do they yearn for freedom? he wondered. What would they do if this child queen bestowed it on them? What are they, if not tigers? What am I, if not a lion? @Seams was speculating about 'tears' in another context, a train of thought stimulated by the recognition that Bran in passing the Black Gate at the Night Fort -- symbolically entering the sea/see, according to my 'tideline' analogy -- was 'marked' in a way (though in an inverse fashion leaving no visible trace) by the warm, clear, salty liquid from the door which runs down his nose, and is compared to a 'tear', and which @Seams has additionally connected to the acquisition of knowledge via the 'nose'/'knows' pun and insights regarding 'tears' in the sense of the magical fabric tearing at certain key locations, of which the Black Gate is one, serving as a symbolic death/rebirth. Quote A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VI The whores of Lannisport and King's Landing were free women. Their sisters of Selhorys were slaves, their bondage indicated by the tears tattooed beneath their right eyes. Old as sin and twice as ugly, the lot of them. It was almost enough to put a man off whoring. Tyrion felt their eyes upon them as he waddled by, and heard them whispering to one another and giggling behind their hands. You would think they had never seen a dwarf before. A squad of Volantene spearmen stood guard at the river gate. Torchlight gleamed off the steel claws that jutted from their gauntlets. Their helms were tiger's masks, the faces beneath marked by green stripes tattooed across both cheeks. The slave soldiers of Volantis were fiercely proud of their tiger stripes, Tyrion knew. Do they yearn for freedom? he wondered. What would they do if this child queen bestowed it on them? What are they, if not tigers? What am I, if not a lion? One of the tigers spied the dwarf and said something that made the others laugh. As they reached the gate, he pulled off his clawed gauntlet and the sweaty glove beneath, locked one arm around the dwarf's neck, and roughly rubbed his head. Tyrion was too startled to resist. It was all over in a heartbeat. "Was there some reason for that?" he demanded of the Halfmaester. "He says that it is good luck to rub the head of a dwarf," Haldon said after an exchange with the guard in his own tongue. A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VI "I would if I did not have a dwarf piping in my ear." "I do not pipe." Tyrion crossed his arms and looked behind him, studying the faces of the men and women who had stopped to listen. Everywhere he turned, he saw tattoos. Slaves. Four of every five of them are slaves. Is Tyrion a kind of prophet? People want to rub his head for luck, as if he's marked by his dwarfism. He's described as 'piping in their ears' as if he's preaching or singing -- which is something prophets and greenseers do. Quote A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VI "Oh, have no fear on that count. Most women prefer to be done with me as quickly as they can." The brothel was a modest one compared to those the dwarf had been wont to frequent in Lannisport and King's Landing. The proprietor did not seem to speak any tongue but that of Volantis, but he understood the clank of silver well enough and led Tyrion through an archway into a long room that smelled of incense, where four bored slave girls were lounging about in various states of undress. Two had seen at least forty namedays come and go, he guessed; the youngest was perhaps fifteen or sixteen. None was as hideous as the whores he'd seen working the docks, though they fell well short of beauty. One was plainly pregnant. Another was just fat, and sported iron rings in both her nipples. All four had tears tattooed beneath one eye. The significance of the tear beneath the eye as a sign of a sex slave suggests there's a kind of 'gender inversion' at play in Bran's 'marriage' to the tree, whereby he is 'feminized' so to speak in the relationship to which there is a disturbing element of coercion. As I was saying, a warm, salty tear rolls down Bran's face marking him as a kind of enslaved prostitute to the Black Gate and whatever and whomever it represents. That would make Bloodraven's cavern a kind of brothel, in which the greenseers are called upon to 'service' many trees, as it were, in a relationship that involves more types of bondage, both literal and figurative, than one! Alternatively, the tear on the cheek could symbolize a warrior instead of a prostitute -- or perhaps both roles are applicable to Bran. Previously, I've likened the greenseers including Bran to the 'merwives' of Patchface's rhyme (although the interpretation works equally well with the Children as the otherworldly merwives). You see, it's difficult to differentiate who is ensnared by whom. In mythology, sirens usually do the luring of the sailors to their doom. However, sometimes mermaids or selkies are trapped and held against their will on dry land, by separating them from their coats and tails, which prevents them from re-entering the water. With Bran, the reverse situation is in effect, whereby he has had his legs taken from him in the fall from the tower, effectively reducing him to a kind of mermaid whose abdomen below the torso is useless on land, but highly effective in the sea. From Winterfell, Bran is spirited away to the cavern with its underground 'sunless sea' and basically forced into a marriage which he enters reluctantly. But at that point, what choice does he have, given that he can't exactly run away anymore? From a sigil perspective, Bran's 'shadow' half while not visible in his official Stark sigil is actually a fish -- since he's a Tully. So the Children are just bringing to the fore his fishy shadow self in introducing him to the 'sea'/'see' beyond the Wall. From a skinchanging perspective, his Tully blood is probably just as important as the Stark quotient. As@Blue-Eyed Wolf has persuasively argued, Sweetrobin, who shares the same percentage of Tully blood, is also a kind of prophet figure, and the Eyrie a kind of 'sea-in-the-air' which is a fabulous observation. To her points, I might add that like someone gifted with 'third sight' he hears dead men singing to him at night, which is highly suggestive (just like Bran and Euron in their dreams...I'm referring to the greenseer visitation in which they were urged to fly): Quote A Feast for Crows - Alayne I Alayne put down her spoon. "If there had been singing, I should have heard it too. You had a bad dream, that's all." "No, it wasn't a dream." Tears filled his eyes. "Marillion was singing again. Your father says he's dead, but he isn't." "He is." It frightened her to hear him talk like this. Bad enough that he is small and sickly, what if he is mad as well? "Sweetrobin, he is. Marillion loved your lady mother too much and could not live with what he'd done to her, so he walked into the sky." Alayne had not seen the body, no more than Robert had, but she did not doubt the fact of the singer's death. "He's gone, truly." By the sea=sky analogy, walking into the sky is like plunging into the sea. And the fact that the dead are singing from the depths of that 'sea' makes Marillion a kind of merwife or Patchface figure too. Passing through the moondoor also corresponds with Bran passing through the Black Gate, both of which are made of weirwood and compared to mouths. Quote A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VII Old Volantis, first daughter of Valyria, the dwarf mused. Proud Volantis, queen of the Rhoyne and mistress of the Summer Sea, home to noble lords and lovely ladies of the most ancient blood. Never mind the packs of naked children that roamed the alleys screaming in shrill voices, or the bravos standing in the doors of wineshops fingering their sword hilts, or the slaves with their bent backs and tattooed faces who scurried everywhere like cockroaches. Mighty Volantis, grandest and most populous of the Nine Free Cities. Ancient wars had depopulated much of the city, however, and large areas of Volantis had begun to sink back into the mud on which it stood. Beautiful Volantis, city of fountains and flowers. But half the fountains were dry, half the pools cracked and stagnant. Flowering vines sent up creepers from every crack in the wall or pavement, and young trees had taken root in the walls of abandoned shops and roofless temples. And then there was the smell. It hung in the hot, humid air, rich, rank, pervasive. There's fish in it, and flowers, and some elephant dung as well. Something sweet and something earthy and something dead and rotten. "This city smells like an old whore," Tyrion announced. "Like some sagging slattern who has drenched her privy parts in perfume to drown the stench between her legs. Not that I am complaining. With whores, the young ones smell much better, but the old ones know more tricks." A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VII Farther on, they fell in behind a smaller elephant, white as old bone and pulling an ornate cart. "Is an oxcart an oxcart without an ox?" Tyrion asked his captor. When that sally got no response, he lapsed back into silence, contemplating the rolling rump of the white dwarf elephant ahead of them. Volantis was overrun with white dwarf elephants. As they drew closer to the Black Wall and the crowded districts near the Long Bridge, they saw a dozen of them. Big grey elephants were not uncommon either—huge beasts with castles on their backs. And in the half-light of evening the dung carts had come out, attended by half-naked slaves whose task it was to shovel up the steaming piles left by elephants both great and small. Swarms of flies followed the carts, so the dung slaves had flies tattooed upon their cheeks, to mark them for what they were. There's a trade for my sweet sister, Tyrion mused. She'd look so pretty with a little shovel and flies tattooed on those sweet pink cheeks. By then they had slowed to a crawl. The river road was thick with traffic, almost all of it flowing south. The knight went with it, a log caught in a current. Tyrion eyed the passing throngs. Nine men of every ten bore slave marks on their cheeks. "So many slaves … where are they all going?" A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VII The great plaza before them was packed almost solid. Many and more of the worshipers were wearing some scrap of red cloth pinned to their sleeves or tied around their brows. Every eye was on the high priest, save theirs. "Make way," the knight growled as his horse pushed through the throng. "Clear a path." The Volantenes gave way resentfully, with mutters and angry looks. Benerro's high voice carried well. Tall and thin, he had a drawn face and skin white as milk. Flames had been tattooed across his cheeks and chin and shaven head to make a bright red mask that crackled about his eyes and coiled down and around his lipless mouth. "Is that a slave tattoo?" asked Tyrion. The knight nodded. "The red temple buys them as children and makes them priests or temple prostitutes or warriors. Look there." He pointed at the steps, where a line of men in ornate armor and orange cloaks stood before the temple's doors, clasping spears with points like writhing flames. "The Fiery Hand. The Lord of Light's sacred soldiers, defenders of the temple." A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII He knew better than to voice such thoughts aloud. Tyrion Lannister had no use for any god, but on this ship it was wise to show a certain respect for red R'hllor. Jorah Mormont had removed Tyron's chains and fetters once they were safely under way, and the dwarf did not wish to give him cause to clap them on again. The Selaesori Qhoran was a wallowing tub of five hundred tons, with a deep hold, high castles fore and aft, and a single mast between. At her forecastle stood a grotesque figurehead, some worm-eaten wooden eminence with a constipated look and a scroll tucked up under one arm. Tyrion had never seen an uglier ship. Her crew was no prettier. Her captain, a mean-mouthed, flinty, kettle-bellied man with close-set, greedy eyes, was a bad cyvasse player and a worse loser. Under him served four mates, freedmen all, and fifty slaves bound to the ship, each with a crude version of the cog's figurehead tattooed upon one cheek. No-Nose, the sailors liked to call Tyrion, no matter how many times he told them his name was Hugor Hill. Three of the mates and more than three-quarters of the crew were fervent worshipers of the Lord of Light. Tyrion was less certain about the captain, who always emerged for the evening prayers but took no other part in them. But Moqorro was the true master of the Selaesori Qhoran, at least for this voyage. A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion X "And one," said a crone in a violet tokar. The auctioneer gave her a sour look but did not disallow the bid. The slave sailors off the Selaesori Qhoran, sold singly, had gone for prices ranging from five hundred to nine hundred pieces of silver. Seasoned seamen were a valuable commodity. None had put up any sort of fight when the slavers boarded their crippled cog. For them this was just a change of owner. The ship's mates had been free men, but the widow of the waterfront had written them a binder, promising to stand their ransom in such a case as this. The three surviving fiery fingers had not been sold yet, but they were chattels of the Lord of Light and could count on being bought back by some red temple. The flames tattooed upon their faces were their binders. Tyrion and Penny had no such reassurance. A Dance with Dragons - The Iron Suitor Grief's master awaited them on deck. A small man, as hairy as he was homely, he was a Sparr by birth. His men called him the Vole. "Lord Captain," he said when Victarion appeared, "this is Moqorro. A gift to us from the Drowned God." The wizard was a monster of a man, as tall as Victarion himself and twice as wide, with a belly like a boulder and a tangle of bone-white hair that grew about his face like a lion's mane. His skin was black. Not the nut brown of the Summer Islanders on their swan ships, nor the red-brown of the Dothraki horselords, nor the charcoal-and-earth color of the dusky woman's skin, but black. Blacker than coal, blacker than jet, blacker than a raven's wing. Burned, Victarion thought, like a man who has been roasted in the flames until his flesh chars and crisps and falls smoking from his bones. The fires that had charred him still danced across his cheeks and forehead, where his eyes peered out from amongst a mask of frozen flames. Slave tattoos, the captain knew. Marks of evil. "We found him clinging to a broken spar," said the Vole. "He was ten days in the water after his ship went down." This is important. Adherents of so-called 'fire magic,' like Moqorro, also begin their tenure in the water element -- by 'drowning' or 'near-drowning.' If fire is not that separate from water, then ice is not that far away from fire. Ice is frozen water! Quote The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities: Volantis For the first century of its existence, Volantis was little more than a military outpost established to protect the borders of the Valyrian empire, with no inhabitants save the soldiers of its garrison. From time to time dragonlords descended to take refreshment or meet with envoys from the Rhoynar cities upriver. Over time, however, taverns and brothels and stables began to sprout up outside the Black Walls, and merchant ships began to call as well. Many of the Old Blood of Volantis still keep the old gods of Valyria, but their faith is found primarily within the Black Walls. Without, the red god R'hllor is favored by many, especially among the slaves and freedmen of the city. The Temple of the Lord of Light in Volantis is said to be the greatest in all the world; in Remnants of the Dragonlords, Archmaester Gramyon claims that it is fully three times larger than the Great Sept of Baelor. All who serve within this mighty temple are slaves, bought as children and trained to become priests, temple prostitutes, or warriors; these wear the flames of their fiery god as tattoos upon their faces. Of the warriors, little enough is said, though they are called the Fiery Hand, and they never number more or less than one thousand members. Blessed with a magnificent natural harbor and an ideal location at the mouth of the Rhoyne, Volantis began to grow rapidly. Homes and shops and inns spread up the east bank of the river and into the hills beyond the Black Walls, whilst across the Rhoyne on the west bank the foreigners, freedmen, sellswords, criminals, and other less savory elements threw up their own shadow city, where fornication, drunkenness, and murder held sway, and eunuchs, pirates, cutpurses, and necromancers mingled freely. The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities: Volantis Inside the Black Walls, Volantenes of the Old Blood still keep court in ancient palaces, attended by armies of slaves. Outside, the foreigners, freedmen, and lowborn of a hundred nations may be found. Seafarers and traders swarm the city's markets and harbors, together with slaves almost beyond count. It is said that in Volantis, there are five slaves for every free man—a disproportion in numbers matched only by the ancient Ghiscari cities of Slaver's Bay. The custom in Volantis is that the faces of all slaves are to be tattooed—marked for life to show their status, and carrying that burden of the past even if they are freed. The styles of tattooing are many, and are sometimes disfiguring. The slave soldiers of Volantis wear green tiger stripes upon their faces, which denote their rank; prostitutes are marked by a single tear beneath their right eye; the slaves that collect the dung of horses and elephants are marked with flies; fools and jesters wear motley; the drivers of the hathays, the carts pulled by the small elephants of Volantis, are marked with wheels; and so on. Volantis is a freehold, and all freeborn landholders have a voice in the governance of the city. Three triarchs are elected annually to administer her laws, command her fleets and armies, and share in the day-to-day rule of the city. The election of the triarchs occurs over the course of ten days, in a process that is both festive and tumultuous. In recent centuries, the office has been dominated by two competing factions, unofficially known as the tigers and the elephants. On 1/24/2017 at 2:33 AM, Cowboy Dan said: The one that really screamed out at me was the drowning of the last priest member. The five of them surround and drown the boy, whereafter he is resurrected into his new life as a member of the Drowned God's priesthood. Just as in the first AGOT chapter, the six Others surround and kill Ser Waymar, where Will thinks to himself, "Lying dead like that, you saw how young he was. A boy," and Waymar is reborn into his second life as a wight. Whereas Aeron's convert, who is constantly referred to as a boy, is willing (but afraid), Waymar is unwilling and shows bravery. But for both, as Aeron points out, fighting does no good to prevent their fate. Also the Others' encounter begins with finding two of the three horsemen NW members while Aeron's encounter ends when the three horsemen arrive to deliver their grim news. Great observation Cowboy! On 1/25/2017 at 8:01 AM, Feather Crystal said: In any case humans don't become "true believers" until they die north of the Wall and the cold winds raise them. So who is the priest that raises them? I was trying to find parallels between Aeron Damphair and Maester Aemon, but maybe there's someone else? If there is anyone else it should be a relative of Brynden Bloodraven Rivers. Such a crucial question -- good job! Why do you say the entity responsible has to be related to Bloodraven? Quote On 1/14/2017 at 6:15 PM, ravenous reader said: As many times as he had visited White Harbor, Davos had never set foot inside the New Castle, much less the Merman's Court. Its walls and floor and ceiling were made of wooden planks notched cunningly together and decorated with all the creatures of the sea. As they approached the dais, Davos trod on painted crabs and clams and starfish, half-hidden amongst twisting black fronds of seaweed and the bones of drowned sailors. On the walls to either side, pale sharks prowled painted blue-green depths, whilst eels and octopods slithered amongst rocks and sunken ships. Shoals of herring and great codfish swam between the tall arched windows. Higher up, near where the old fishing nets drooped down from the rafters, the surface of the sea had been depicted. To his right a war galley stroked serene against the rising sun; to his left, a battered old cog raced before a storm, her sails in rags. Behind the dais a kraken and grey leviathan were locked in battle beneath the painted waves. I agree with PKJane. Wouldn't this be a beautiful room to walk into! Especially if there were some way to have dappled reflections from water shining up upon the sides of the room or on the ceiling. Well -- as a matter of fact -- if you live in or near San Francisco or happen to visit, you can experience such a room: Aquarium of the Bay 'under the bay' (sharks) Aquarium of the Bay 'under the bay' (seaweed) Or if you're on the other side of the Pacific, just outside Beijing you can make like the mermen and dine under the sea on seafood, perhaps even on 'starfish soup'..! Tianjin Haichang Ocean Polar World Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 28, 2017 Author Share Posted January 28, 2017 17 hours ago, ravenous reader said: While I don't know enough about Wenda in order to comment on her connection to drowning specifically (maybe you can elaborate and help me out!), apart from her affinity for 'burning her mark into the buttocks of her highborn captives' which links her to the marking motif; more generally consider that a 'spot' is a 'mark' in the sense of a blemish, in addition to it being a sign that someone is marked or singled out for greatness potentially, and either real or symbolic death. Wenda the white fawn burning a black fawn into a white buttocks is also an image rife with inversion for you to unpack! So, to the dappling, mottling, motley, spotting, piebald assortment of marks and tattoos, we might also add all those marked by burning (Jon, Victarion. Beric, etc). Thank you Ravenous Reader for such a thoughtful and thorough post! There is a lot of good stuff here and the only way I can give this justice is to break your post down into sections and try to keep my focus on each area. I should have detailed my reasoning regarding Wenda and how I connect her to wells and drowning, but this is a topic that keeps expanding over the months that I have been delving into inversions. (begin reading here and subsequent posts) And I hesitate to detail too much, because I don't want to go too far off on a tangent when I'd like to keep this particular reread thread focused on Damphair and Drowned Prophets. Wenda will come up again later in the Queenmaker chapter reread. BUT I will try to condense where I'm coming from. We all have our specialties which cause us to come at these theories from different directions, but what I've found is that we still uncover similar themes. You, Pain killer Jane, Blue Tiger, and LmL delve deeply into symbolism. I am in awe at your abilities! I enjoy reading some of it, but I try to be careful about not falling down your rabbit holes, because I end up spending several hours reading and don't get anything else done! lol My specialty is finding parallel inversions so my interpretation of symbolism stems from the foundation of inversions. OK, back to Wenda...I'll try to condense, but I fear that may not be possible. First I will assert my conclusion that Wenda is meant to symbolize Lyanna. Before we get to Wenda we have to lay out the foundation upon which to build. I believe Tywin and Cersei plotted to kidnap Lyanna and frame Rhaegar. The Soiled Knight revealed that Jaime and/or Robert Baratheon were drawn into the plot. Lets back this up again to insert that I believe the original plot began with the Citadel. The Citadel wanted to rid the realm of Targaryens and place an Andal king back on the iron throne. Tywin was viewed as their Warrior of the Seven, while Robert was their Smith. And in a related, but separate subject all together, Sandor will be their Stranger. One of Tywin's main motivations for abandoning King Aerys was that he wanted Cersei to marry Rhaegar and become queen. I believe even after Rhaegar married Elia, Tywin held out hope that Elia would either die or that Rhaegar would set her aside, but when it became apparent that neither thing would happen he needed a different plan to put his daughter upon the throne. Secret communications were already happening between Tywin and the other Lords Hoster, Rickard, Steffon, and Jon Arryn. We know this because Tywin agreed to promise Jaime to Hoster's daughter Lyssa. Tywin understood what the marriage alliances meant: that these Houses were plotting a rebellion, and I suspect Rhaegar was originally their intended king, but this would not satisfy Tywin's desire for his daughter to be queen. The plot to frame Rhaegar was between the Citadel and Tywin and may not have included Hoster, Rickard, and Steffon. Although I think an argument could be made that they all knew, but that's a separate discussion. In any case Tywin understood that Robert was already engaged to Lyanna, so Lyanna simply had to go. There was the added benefit of framing Rhaegar in that it would unite the North and motivate them into action. It is suspected that Cersei drowned her childhood friend in a well, so bringing someone to a well symbolizes killing them. In the Queenmaker chapter Arianne has Ser Arys sneak little Myrcella out of Sunspear by setting up an elaborate scheme where her handmaiden Rosamund is painted with red spots in order to keep people far enough away that they won't realize that the man standing guard in Ser Arys armor wasn't Arys and that Rosamund wasn't Myrcella. Ser Arys then brings little Myrcella to a well. Arianne is Cersei's parallel and "little Myrcella" symbolizes the marriage pact between the throne and Dorne. The parallel to this is the marriage pact between the potential throne of Robert Baratheon and the North (Lyanna). The man dressed in Ser Arys's armor has a parallel too, and I fully admit that I go back and forth between identifying him as either Jaime or Robert. I believe Jaime or Robert dressed in a replicate of Rhaegar's armor so that people would believe Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Jaime/Robert is the robber knight that Arianne dreams of at the well. Symbolically Arianne had asked Arys to bring "the marriage pact" to a well. The parallel inversion to this is Cersei asked Jaime/Robert to bring "the marriage pact" to "a well" (to die). So how does Wenda fit into this? Wenda was a member of the Kingswood Brotherhood which was a group of outlaws that kidnapped nobles and held them for ransom. The group of people that kidnapped Lyanna (a noblewoman) never intended to hold her for ransom, because she was "spotted" which meant she was marked to die. Instead of Wenda being a member of the group, her inversion was to be the one that was kidnapped. 17 hours ago, ravenous reader said: Sometimes this distinguishing 'mark' is literal, e.g. Bloodraven's raven-shaped birthmark (of the 'port-wine stain' variety, 'nevus flammeus' or 'firemark') or figurative, e.g. Bloodraven's albinism, although the very opposite of a mark being a depigmentation, nevertheless marks him out as different; even his bastardy is another kind of mark or 'stain' in society's eyes (to which we might add others with various afflictions or idiosyncrasies which make them stand out for some reason, such as Bran's crippling, Aemon's blindness, Sweetrobin's epilepsy, Tyrion's dwarfism etc.). I agree that being physically or figuratively marked is indicative of a special meaning and all seem to be tied to death in some way even if some of them are reborn in some manner. I don't believe Aeron physically died. He certainly symbolically died and he himself believes the man he was died and was reborn as a priest. 17 hours ago, ravenous reader said: Given that drowning is a metaphor for greenseeing, that 'drowning' is frequently coupled with 'spotting' imagery, and that greenseers like the Children of the Forest with whom they collaborate are marked or spotted (and certainly blemished or stained in the sense of morally tainted), we can say as a general rule that the spotting motif marks out those who are susceptible to third-eye opening in addition to being prone to engage in risky, morally questionable endeavors, although not all those who are susceptible to third-eye experiences are greenseers. The marked ones -- as in the case of the victims of Wenda's charred-arse (her version of 'scorched-earth') trademark -- may be greenseer thralls instead of overseers, just as Wenda's victims are 'owned' by her by branding (analagous to how branded cattle designate ownership). I think drowning is more than a metaphor for greenseeing. Drowning is connected to spots, dappling, and rebirth into something different...elevated somehow, or genetically changed into a different sort of race, but I suspect that you actually have to die to become a greenseer. Bran didn't feel his death, but I believe he's been transformed and reborn and an undead creature. Yes his blood makes him a greenseer, but in order to be wed to the trees he had to die somehow, but it's almost as if he'll experience a suspended death. I would not be surprised if his body stops growing, or growth has been slowed. I mean that's certainly up for debate, because it's hard to tell if Bloodraven already looks the same as he always had except he's got roots growing through his body. 17 hours ago, ravenous reader said: Theon, for example, who is also marked by his various mutilations in addition to the stigma of being a ward which marks him out for death, is more of a thrall to various people (first Ned, then Robb, then Ramsay and by the end of ADWD on his way to becoming Bran's 'well-trained raven,' in my opinion). A ward is basically a dead man walking under the shadow of the sword, as Theon expresses himself, having to live with the dark spectre of Ice hanging over him. I also believe Theon is marked in the eyes of the gods as a kinslayer, since the 'miller's boys' whom he burnt may have been his own seed, a crime for which he in turn bitterly forfeited his further reproductive potency. I haven't fully explored Theon's symbolism, but I suspect he's mirroring Rhaegar. The Greyjoys are all mirroring Targaryens and Blackfyres. He's Balon's prince and heir so he's on my to do list to explore any parallel inversions to Rhaegar. The miller's boys parallel Rhaegar's children. I suspect the reason why Rhaenys and Aegon were wrapped in Lannister flags was to conceal that they weren't actually Rhaegar's children. If you find any symbolism connecting flags to fire or burning let me know. 17 hours ago, ravenous reader said: When he pledges himself to the 'old gods' at the heart tree, that is his true baptism, not the one he received from Aeron. Significantly, Theon is marked as Bran's man (just as Wenda claims her thralls in her name) in the mystical encounter with the heart tree, when he is marked -- or 'branded' (ha ha) -- by Bran's hand reaching out to claim him via the bloodstained hand of the heart tree brushing against his forehead (the site of the third eye). This action is similar to the blessing conferred by a priest, making Bran a priest of of the drowned just like Aeron. @Blue Tiger has also recently highlighted the quote where Ned predicts Bran would become the 'High Septon' which makes sense in this respect: HAR! BRANded! Theon was branded by Bran the greenseer, just as I suspect something happened to Rhaegar's body at the tower of joy. After his death on the Trident I think there is evidence suggested in parallel inversion form that he was brought to the tower of joy and that blood magic was performed in an attempt to resurrect him either to life or into a dragon. Lyanna was the sacrificial "horse" similar to Drogo's horse. But that, again, is another thread altogether! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 28, 2017 Author Share Posted January 28, 2017 16 hours ago, ravenous reader said: The 'high septon' and 'high sparrow' preside over the other sparrows, the way the Great Other presumably presides over the Others in the hierarchy, making Bran a candidate for the 'Great Other' glimpsed by Melisandre. Apart from being one of Bran's 'well-trained ravens', kneeling at the foot of the heart tree also makes Theon one of Bran's direwolves, like the stone direwolves at the foot of the Kings in the crypt. Bran is an inversion, if you like, of Aeron. Aeron is a false prophet, heralding a false king (Euron), both of whom Theon ultimately rejects in his heart, aligning himself with the Starks, as demonstrated by his sincere communion with Bran at the tree and how he instinctively identifies with his 'namesake Theon Stark the hungry wolf' in the crypts. I wish I had hit enter before "quote this" so that I could preface the above...oh well. Is the Great Other a true god or is he/she the old gods, or even just one side of magic? I see the Great Other as the ice side of magic, while Rh'llor is the fire side of magic. The great question is who created this magic? Or is the real question, who learned how to tap into this magic? Bran is learning how to tap into the source of magic, but will he only have access to ice magic or will he have access to fire magic as well? Like I mentioned upthread I view Theon as a mirrored parallel to Rhaegar, so my interpretation of symbolism will be different since I'm coming from a foundation of inversions. I believe Rhaegar and all Targaryens were students of magic, so sitting at the foot of a weirwood is symbolic of learning from those that have knowledge of magic. I don't see Bran as an inversion or prophet of or like Aeron. Technically Bran is on the same level as the gods. Greenseers are gods or at the minimum part of the godhead. The white walkers are parallel inversions to Drowned priests since they bring the cold air that reanimates the dead just as Aeron breathes life into the drowned. I tend to believe that the ironborn are practicing their drowning ritual in memory of some lost ability much like Jesus instructed his believers to share bread and wine to symbolize his body and blood that was soon to be sacrificed. The ritual of taking communion in memory of Jesus's sacrifice is similar to the drowning and breathing life preformed by Aeron and other priests as being symbolic of a past ability to raise the dead. I believe the ironborn once had their own greenseer that worked magic. Maybe even being the source of the original white walkers of old. 16 hours ago, ravenous reader said: If the inversion holds, and Aeron and Euron are false usurpers of the North, that would potentially make Bran the true prophet heralding the true King of Winter and the North, namely Jon. The North is not 'under the sea' because the Ironborn invade, it's 'under the sea' due to the underground resistance movement welling up from the depths of its true heart -- the epicentre of which is and has always been the heart tree of Winterfell, in which Bran more truly than any other resides. I surmise it's from there that the movements of the forces of Winter and the Others are conducted. As Seams and many others have pointed out, a 'heart tree' can additionally be a wordplay on 'hart tree' and a white hart is a white fawn, so Bran is a kind of Wenda figure wielding his burning brand! I theorize that Aeron and Euron are fated to relive Bittersteel and Bloodraven's places on the wheel of time. We are meant to find the parallels between the characters and realize that whatever Aeron and Euron experience it will be the opposite of what Bittersteel and Bloodraven did in the past. What ever happened in the past that created the original white walkers, Bran's job will be to reverse the outcome. 16 hours ago, ravenous reader said: @Blue-Eyed Wolf also mentioned how seers are often marked by their wild, streaming halos or manes of hair. In this respect, note Aeron's other name 'Damphair' is a wordplay, firstly of 'damp hair' and secondly, in German 'dampf' which means 'steam' plus 'air'; similarly, Bran has hair 'kissed by fire.' I was trying to find a physical description of the white walkers to see if they are described as having streaming long hair, because there are artist renderings that do show flowing or even flame-like white-blue hair. Euron too is said to have long black hair which is reverse of Bloodraven's long white hair. I think it's more of a descriptive parallel to draw connections between priests and white walkers. 16 hours ago, ravenous reader said: What I'm saying is that the Ironborn are stuck in the physical reality of the 'sea', whereas Bran has made the metaphysical leap to the 'see'. This power has been acquired at great cost. Whereas Aeron only plays at sacrificing people, Bran has actually (albeit unknowingly) partaken of human flesh, including that of his friend Jojen. I've touched on this earlier with regards to comparing the ritualistic aspect of drowning as being something performed in memory of some lost knowledge of what their "drowned" greenseer could do. 16 hours ago, ravenous reader said: The shelter of the drowned god's priest is a bit like Bloodraven's cave. Constructed predominantly of driftwood, to which Nagga the pale demon tree Ygg is also compared, it's an innocuous version of the cave whose columns and roof are formed by the weirwoods in Bloodraven's cavern. It's built just above the tideline, just as Bloodraven's cave is located north of the Wall -- another symbolic 'tideline'. Except -- and this is where the inversion of the symbolism comes in -- since the expanse north of the wall represents 'under the sea' territory (the underworld), Bloodraven and Bran are actually located under the sea and underground, whereas Aeron/Damphair has retreated out of the sea to drier ground, above ground, on the other side of the partition. I like this description. 16 hours ago, ravenous reader said: Imagine the 'tideline' as the highest extent on the beach of the sea, analogous to the Wall as the highest extent on the continent /Westeros of the advancing sea of ice (whether understood as a glacier, the wave of migrating Wildlings, the rising tide of wights and Others riding the 'winds of Winter', or the parallel world in space -- also a sea... That's why we call the craft daring to voyage into its unknown depths 'space ships' -- in which there may be, according to @LmL's compelling theory, an ice moon meteor on the way, whereby the 'tide line' would be represented by the atmosphere of the planet, analogous to the Wall. So, earth is caught or sandwiched between two seas -- the one above and the one below.) Aeron prays to the drowned god beneath the waves for a word. If Bran and Bloodraven are the entities 'under the sea,' does that make one or both of them 'the drowned god'? Is singing the 'language of Leviathan' the equivalent of the song of the earth or True Tongue? Is there a difference between the waves 'rumbling' and the leaves 'rustling'? I agree the wights are a sea of dead that are rising and may even flow over the Wall like ice spiders. 16 hours ago, ravenous reader said: First and foremost, slaves are tattooed, making prophets slaves, despite their elevated stature. The acquisition of power goes hand in hand with servitude to that power, which entails paying a price for that power. Accordingly, the greenseers -- the 'prophets' or 'seers' in this equation -- are enslaved to the tree for its inscrutable purposes, just as they enslave the tree for their own purposes. This relation is evident in how Bloodraven is bound, pinioned, and penetrated by the tendrils of the tree -- which resemble the tentacles of the Kraken. I don't believe Aeron is tattooed, but I do like the connection between slaves and the priesthood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 28, 2017 Author Share Posted January 28, 2017 17 hours ago, ravenous reader said: Such a crucial question -- good job! Why do you say the entity responsible has to be related to Bloodraven? This goes back to my belief in inversions. The Greyjoy family is a parallel inversion to the Targaryen/Blackfyre family. This is who I've identified so far: Euron = Bloodraven Victarion = Bittersteel King Balon = King Aegon IV Princess Asha = Rhaella or Shiera Seastar Prince Theon = Rhaegar or perhaps Daemon III Aeron the Damphair = Maester Aemon or ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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