Salt and the Black Gate - Re-read Question

[pigpiginsunspear]

I don't this has been discussed before (although, who knows, it seems everything has been discussed - c'mon WoW).

I am doing a re-read of the series, and have been flagging a few things that stuck out.  Of course, I've forgotten or lost most of them, but I do have one I thought you all can help with.

In A Storm of Swords, Bran Chapter (his last of the book), Bran passes under The Black Gate of the Nightfort to meet Cold Hands.  This was shortly after meeting Sam.  The following stood out:

"Then pass," the door said. Its lips opened, wide and wider and wider still, until nothing at all remained but a great gaping mouth in a ring of wrinkles. Sam stepped aside and waved Jojen through ahead of him. Summer followed, sniffing as he went, and then it was Bran's turn. Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

My question is, why end Bran's Chapter with that?  It seems to be of some importance.  Any ideas?

I'll throw out an (obvious) one:  The Gate was actually crying and that was a warm tear.  That begs the questions, why is the Gate crying?  Perhaps foreshadowing the doom of the group passing through it.  I don't think I like this as it seems a little melodramatic and the use of "salty as a tear" is a little too obvious, but who knows.

[talvikorppi]

My thought is that salt water is somehow a "repellent" against the Others.

Fresh water (lakes, rivers) is no problem for the Others, they can easily freeze the water. Sea water doesn't freeze as easily because of the salinity, also because of the greater movement (tides, big waves, ocean currents).

The Others or their wights don't seem to be able to go around the Wall east or west where it meets the oceans. Why not just bring the extreme cold with them and freeze the sea water? Seas do freeze if it's cold enough. Just look at the Arctic here on our planet Earth.

Maybe it's the salt? Frozen sea water is still salty, the ice is salty. (Snow then accumulating on top of a frozen sea, though, would still be rainwater, i.e. fresh water purified by the evaporation/condensation cycle , hmmm... How thick would that layer have to be for the Others/wights to cross?)

Maybe, when the Wall was first constructed, the builders hauled giant blocks of frozen sea (salt) water to make at least some of the building blocks of the Wall, because they knew that salt water and consequently salty ice would repell the Others, maybe help with any other spells they put on the Wall.

I'm just spitballing here, I haven't developed a theory or even a hypothesis around this. It's just a thought that comes to mind. The sea around where I live does freeze in the winter, we go cross-country skiing across the ice (covered in freshwater snow) and icebreakers keep the shipping lanes open. Winter things.

As to Bran tasting that tiny trickle of melt inside the Wall... If the Wall was made, at least partly, from sea ice, it'd explain the salinity. The highly emotional description (face, mouth, eyes, tear...) is misdirection, the real clue is the salt water.

[pigpiginsunspear]

Very interesting!  I suppose it is possible that the "base" or "skeleton" of the Wall is made from frozen blocks of sea water.  The only interaction I can think of between sea water and the Others is near Hard Home, where Cotter Pyke notices the undead underwater.  Doesn't disprove your  theory by any means, but we do know that wights are not troubled by the salt water.

 

 

[talvikorppi]

I think Cotter Pyke's words (via Maester Harmune's hand (who's a known drunk, I think?)) is "dead things in the water". Are they dead dead or wights or what?

I could explain it away as a description of the general disaster that the Hardhome rescue mission apparently is. But that "dead things in the water" has me worried. Maybe salt water has no effect on wights/Others. In which case, the rest of Westeros is fairly doomed, ha ha!

[pigpiginsunspear]

Yep, who knows.  Unclear if he meat that literally.

Still, the passage seems important, just unsure why.

[Lost Melnibonean]

It made me think of that scene where Alice starts bawling and the doorknob thinks he's gonna drown. 

I read it as a another reminder that tears are salty, as in smoke and salt, so we would recognize what the storyteller was doing at the end of Jon XIII, Dance 69...

Quote

...The knight's cloak flapped in the cold air. Of white wool it had been, bordered in cloth-of-silver and patterned with blue stars. Blood and bone were flying everywhere. ...

...

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. ...

... In the cold night air the wound was smoking. ...

 

[Jon Fossoway]

Maybe foreshadowing the 'Jojen paste'? Bran is strangely akin to eating human or formerly living stuff. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

25 minutes ago, pigpiginsunspear said:

Yep, who knows.  Unclear if he meat that literally.

Still, the passage seems important, just unsure why.

Keep in mind that the George likes creepy, almost gothic, scenes, and ASOIAF is high fantasy rather than hard fantasy, so the weird stuff doesn't have to be explained. 

[The Fattest Leech]

It seems to be another little speck of pepper in the story that gives hints to the main characters.
 

26 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Maybe foreshadowing the 'Jojen paste'? Bran is strangely akin to eating human or formerly living stuff. 

I know, right. It's so weird and I am so in to it

[The Fattest Leech]

8 hours ago, pigpiginsunspear said:

I don't this has been discussed before (although, who knows, it seems everything has been discussed - c'mon WoW).

I am doing a re-read of the series, and have been flagging a few things that stuck out.  Of course, I've forgotten or lost most of them, but I do have one I thought you all can help with.

In A Storm of Swords, Bran Chapter (his last of the book), Bran passes under The Black Gate of the Nightfort to meet Cold Hands.  This was shortly after meeting Sam.  The following stood out:

"Then pass," the door said. Its lips opened, wide and wider and wider still, until nothing at all remained but a great gaping mouth in a ring of wrinkles. Sam stepped aside and waved Jojen through ahead of him. Summer followed, sniffing as he went, and then it was Bran's turn. Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

My question is, why end Bran's Chapter with that?  It seems to be of some importance.  Any ideas?

I'll throw out an (obvious) one:  The Gate was actually crying and that was a warm tear.  That begs the questions, why is the Gate crying?  Perhaps foreshadowing the doom of the group passing through it.  I don't think I like this as it seems a little melodramatic and the use of "salty as a tear" is a little too obvious, but who knows.

This sounds like the door is kissing Bran on the forehead and a tear fell from the mother's eye. Bran seems to have a thing that makes inanimate objects turn human to comfort him. Weird

Memba' this?

• A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

  "I beg . . ." The maester swallowed. ". . . a . . . a drink of water, and . . . another boon. If you would . . ."

"Aye." She turned to Meera. "Take the boys."

Jojen and Meera led Rickon out between them. Hodor followed. Low branches whipped at Bran's face as they pushed between the trees, and the leaves brushed away his tears. Osha joined them in the yard a few moments later. She said no word of Maester Luwin. "Hodor must stay with Bran, to be his legs," the wildling woman said briskly. "I will take Rickon with me."

"We'll go with Bran," said Jojen Reed.

[Jon Fossoway]

26 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This sounds like the door is kissing Bran on the forehead and a tear fell from the mother's eye. Bran seems to have a thing that makes inanimate objects turn human to comfort him. Weird

Memba' this?

• A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

  "I beg . . ." The maester swallowed. ". . . a . . . a drink of water, and . . . another boon. If you would . . ."

"Aye." She turned to Meera. "Take the boys."

Jojen and Meera led Rickon out between them. Hodor followed. Low branches whipped at Bran's face as they pushed between the trees, and the leaves brushed away his tears. Osha joined them in the yard a few moments later. She said no word of Maester Luwin. "Hodor must stay with Bran, to be his legs," the wildling woman said briskly. "I will take Rickon with me."

"We'll go with Bran," said Jojen Reed.

No! Not that voyeur Bloodraven creep again!

[Lost Melnibonean]

13 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This sounds like the door is kissing Bran on the forehead and a tear fell from the mother's eye. Bran seems to have a thing that makes inanimate objects turn human to comfort him. Weird

Memba' this?

• A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

  "I beg . . ." The maester swallowed. ". . . a . . . a drink of water, and . . . another boon. If you would . . ."

"Aye." She turned to Meera. "Take the boys."

Jojen and Meera led Rickon out between them. Hodor followed. Low branches whipped at Bran's face as they pushed between the trees, and the leaves brushed away his tears. Osha joined them in the yard a few moments later. She said no word of Maester Luwin. "Hodor must stay with Bran, to be his legs," the wildling woman said briskly. "I will take Rickon with me."

"We'll go with Bran," said Jojen Reed.

Well, trees do anyway...

[The Fattest Leech]

2 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

No! Not that voyeur Bloodraven creep again!

To quote Rockwell... https://youtu.be/7YvAYIJSSZY

 

[pigpiginsunspear]

16 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Keep in mind that the George likes creepy, almost gothic, scenes, and ASOIAF is high fantasy rather than hard fantasy, so the weird stuff doesn't have to be explained. 

I do agree and would generally chalk it up to that, except that it is one of the last things we hear from Bran in that book.  Just seemed curious.  Could have easily left out the strangely warm and salty as a tear part.  

Seems to me, the most direct explanation is that the Door was crying either because of something that will happen to the Wall or the group of travelers.

[estermonty python]

18 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I read it as a another reminder that tears are salty, as in smoke and salt, so we would recognize what the storyteller was doing at the end of Jon XIII, Dance 69...

Yeah this is the answer, I'd almost guarantee.  It's not just a reminder, though.  We could be reminded that tears are salty anytime - here, I think the point is that the Wall weeps saltwater.  Forget Bowen Marsh's tears, he's not important.  It's Jon's wounds that smoke amidst the salt of the Wall.  

It's another fire and ice motif.  When ice conquers fire, you get smoke.  When fire conquers ice, it melts and you get the salt that Bran tasted.

Nice find!

[Philpenn]

Bran was watching himself and company cross through.  He never leaves the cave, and all the others die beyond The Wall.  One of those moments that changes everything, and rewatching made him shed a tear or two.

 

?

[Lost Melnibonean]

44 minutes ago, Philpenn said:

Bran was watching himself and company cross through.  He never leaves the cave, and all the others die beyond The Wall.  One of those moments that changes everything, and rewatching made him shed a tear or two.

 

?

Very, very good. Or he knows that none of his companions will survive... OH MY! I am going to plug that in here! 

[pigpiginsunspear]

1 hour ago, Philpenn said:

Bran was watching himself and company cross through.  He never leaves the cave, and all the others die beyond The Wall.  One of those moments that changes everything, and rewatching made him shed a tear or two.

 

?

Wow didn't think of that. Nice one!!

1 hour ago, estermonty python said:

Yeah this is the answer, I'd almost guarantee.  It's not just a reminder, though.  We could be reminded that tears are salty anytime - here, I think the point is that the Wall weeps saltwater.  Forget Bowen Marsh's tears, he's not important.  It's Jon's wounds that smoke amidst the salt of the Wall.  

It's another fire and ice motif.  When ice conquers fire, you get smoke.  When fire conquers ice, it melts and you get the salt that Bran tasted.

Nice find!

@talvikorppi touched on this, however why would the wall be made of sea water?  Would seem extremely tedious.  Perhaps the core/base is made of seawater, but again, why?  As I point out above, there is evidence that wights are fine in seawater.

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 hours ago, Philpenn said:

Bran was watching himself and company cross through.  He never leaves the cave, and all the others die beyond The Wall.  One of those moments that changes everything, and rewatching made him shed a tear or two.

 

?

And boom goes the dynamite!

[estermonty python]

54 minutes ago, pigpiginsunspear said:

@talvikorppi touched on this, however why would the wall be made of sea water?  Would seem extremely tedious.  Perhaps the core/base is made of seawater, but again, why?  As I point out above, there is evidence that wights are fine in seawater.

I don't really have an opinion on how the wights fare in seawater.  I'm also not suggesting that the wall is or is not made of seawater; I actually find that rather unlikely.  A better guess is that the rocks making up the stones contain salt deposits (halite rock), so that when water runs over the rock it tastes salty.  Salt deposits are pretty common and tend to be pretty massive, so its far from a stretch.  My point is just that there's clearly salt in the rock!