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Salt and the Black Gate - Re-read Question


pigpiginsunspear

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On January 10, 2017 at 1:27 PM, pigpiginsunspear said:

I don't this has been discussed before (although, who knows, it seems everything has been discussed - c'mon WoW).

I am doing a re-read of the series, and have been flagging a few things that stuck out.  Of course, I've forgotten or lost most of them, but I do have one I thought you all can help with.

In A Storm of Swords, Bran Chapter (his last of the book), Bran passes under The Black Gate of the Nightfort to meet Cold Hands.  This was shortly after meeting Sam.  The following stood out:

"Then pass," the door said. Its lips opened, wide and wider and wider still, until nothing at all remained but a great gaping mouth in a ring of wrinkles. Sam stepped aside and waved Jojen through ahead of him. Summer followed, sniffing as he went, and then it was Bran's turn. Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

My question is, why end Bran's Chapter with that?  It seems to be of some importance.  Any ideas?

I'll throw out an (obvious) one:  The Gate was actually crying and that was a warm tear.  That begs the questions, why is the Gate crying?  Perhaps foreshadowing the doom of the group passing through it.  I don't think I like this as it seems a little melodramatic and the use of "salty as a tear" is a little too obvious, but who knows.

I marked that as odd too. I always thought of it as somehow getting guest right (eating of salt) but I could never really make the connections.

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3 hours ago, Philpenn said:

Bran was watching himself and company cross through.  He never leaves the cave, and all the others die beyond The Wall.  One of those moments that changes everything, and rewatching made him shed a tear or two.

Nice interpretation!  I also think Bran is in the weirwood (the Winterfell heart tree) with which he made eye contact during his 'coma dream' flight chaperoned by the three-eyed crow -- you know the weirwood with the 'knowing' red eyes, self-reflexively 'brooding' on its own reflection, the one possessed of some knowledge of which Bran at that point is as of yet unaware -- even though he's looking at himself through his own eyes! -- I'd wager it's a 'terrible knowledge'...

44 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

I don't really have an opinion on how the wights fare in seawater.  I'm also not suggesting that the wall is or is not made of seawater; I actually find that rather unlikely.  A better guess is that the rocks making up the stones contain salt deposits (halite rock), so that when water runs over the rock it tastes salty.  Salt deposits are pretty common and tend to be pretty massive, so its far from a stretch.  My point is just that there's clearly salt in the rock!

 

1 hour ago, pigpiginsunspear said:

why would the wall be made of sea water?  Would seem extremely tedious.  Perhaps the core/base is made of seawater, but again, why?

It's possible that the Wall is made of sea water; or at least that the underground well/black gate connects to an underground sea, perhaps this Coleridgean 'sunless sea':

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

The caves were timeless, vast, silent. They were home to more than three score living singers and the bones of thousands dead, and extended far below the hollow hill. "Men should not go wandering in this place," Leaf warned them. "The river you hear is swift and black, and flows down and down to a sunless sea. And there are passages that go even deeper, bottomless pits and sudden shafts, forgotten ways that lead to the very center of the earth. Even my people have not explored them all, and we have lived here for a thousand thousand of your man-years."

At any rate, the 'salty tear' hinting at an underground sea puts a new spin on Patchface's prophetic ditties, all prefaced with 'under the sea...'-- therefore, perhaps one can interpret all of them as referring to the action at the Wall or beyond that boundary, and eventually referring to the power of the greenseers who are always based underground in hollow hills adjacent to a water source, as @Wizz-The-Smith has shown.  I also think there's a pun on 'green sea' and 'green see.'

20 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

I marked that as odd too. I always thought of it as somehow getting guest right (eating of salt) but I could never really make the connections.

It's weird that you should mention guest right, since we shouldn't forget that Bran and co are passing through someone's mouth -- the gate/weirwood tree is literally eating them!  The 'salty warm tear' can also be thought of as saliva from the lip brushing against Bran's head.  The image of passing through a maw/yaw(ning)/jaw, whenever recapitulated, has an undertone of menace -- e.g. Robb and co at the Red Wedding pass through the jaws of the portcullis which shut after them as they enter to their final supper; then Bran and co in Bloodraven's cave which is likened to a massive mouth with upper and lower rows of teeth.

3 hours ago, estermonty python said:

Yeah this is the answer, I'd almost guarantee.  It's not just a reminder, though.  We could be reminded that tears are salty anytime - here, I think the point is that the Wall weeps saltwater.  Forget Bowen Marsh's tears, he's not important.  It's Jon's wounds that smoke amidst the salt of the Wall.  

It's another fire and ice motif.  When ice conquers fire, you get smoke.  When fire conquers ice, it melts and you get the salt that Bran tasted.

Nice find!

That's an interesting observation.  So, how specifically is 'fire conquering ice' here in Bran's case, as evidenced by the warm tear-like fluid?  Are you saying Bran representing fire is conquering the black gate representing ice?  How can he be conquering it when he is passing through its mouth as if it's devouring him?

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35 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

 

It's weird that you should mention guest right, since we shouldn't forget that Bran and co are passing through someone's mouth -- the gate/weirwood tree is literally eating them!  The 'salty warm tear' can also be thought of as saliva from the lip brushing against Bran's head.  The image of passing through a maw/yaw(ning)/jaw, whenever recapitulated, has an undertone of menace -- e.g. Robb and co at the Red Wedding pass through the jaws of the portcullis which shut after them as they enter to their final supper; then Bran and co in Bloodraven's cave which is likened to a massive mouth with upper and lower rows of teeth.

 

And not to mention that the last sentence of the paragraph, if I read well, denotes that Bran savored the sap (blood) falling from the tree. It is difficult to know that something tastes salty without trying it. And this is Bran's POV, after all. But the image that the author gives us is disturbing: the group entering a tree that devours them, while Bran eats it back.

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Besides @YOVMO's point about salt being part of the guest right ritual, the other notable reference to salt is at Salt Pans, where there is a massacre and where Arya "becomes" Salty and begins her voyage to Essos. If GRRM wants us to connect the "Hero's Journey" elements of Bran's passage through the Wall with Arya's voyage across the sea, this may be a way of linking the Bran arc to the Arya arc.

There are a number of references to tears and to the "weeping" Wall, which we assume means that the Wall is melting in the relatively warm temperature. Tears of Lys, Alyssa's Tears (a legend about mourning for a family as well as a waterfall at the Eyrie) and then the pun on tears (as in crying) and tears (as in fabric that has been torn).

If you're not interested in symbolism and literary interpretation, and want to focus on the plot, maybe the tear is the tree (or the Wall) recognizing that Bran is taking a fateful step when he passes beyond the Wall. Maybe he will never go south of the Wall again? Maybe a dreadful prophecy will be fulfilled? The tear could foreshadow something known to the CotF but not yet known by the reader.

I have a couple other guesses, but they involve literary stuff so I'll stop here.

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26 minutes ago, Seams said:

Besides @YOVMO's point about salt being part of the guest right ritual, the other notable reference to salt is at Salt Pans, where there is a massacre and where Arya "becomes" Salty and begins her voyage to Essos. If GRRM wants us to connect the "Hero's Journey" elements of Bran's passage through the Wall with Arya's voyage across the sea, this may be a way of linking the Bran arc to the Arya arc.

There are a number of references to tears and to the "weeping" Wall, which we assume means that the Wall is melting in the relatively warm temperature. Tears of Lys, Alyssa's Tears (a legend about mourning for a family as well as a waterfall at the Eyrie) and then the pun on tears (as in crying) and tears (as in fabric that has been torn).

If you're not interested in symbolism and literary interpretation, and want to focus on the plot, maybe the tear is the tree (or the Wall) recognizing that Bran is taking a fateful step when he passes beyond the Wall. Maybe he will never go south of the Wall again? Maybe a dreadful prophecy will be fulfilled? The tear could foreshadow something known to the CotF but not yet known by the reader.

I have a couple other guesses, but they involve literary stuff so I'll stop here.

Besides what you've touched on, the other notable reference to 'salty' is that blood tastes salty, and the Wall itself is held up by blood magic, or built of blood, as related by Ygritte -- so when the Wall cries it's liable to cry salty tears of blood serum:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon IV

"It's made of ice," Jon pointed out.

"You know nothing, Jon Snow. This wall is made o' blood."

Nor had it drunk its fill. By sunset, two of the Thenns had fallen from the ladder to their deaths, but they were the last. It was near midnight before Jon reached the top. The stars were out again, and Ygritte was trembling from the climb. "I almost fell," she said, with tears in her eyes. "Twice. Thrice. The Wall was trying t' shake me off, I could feel it." One of the tears broke free and trickled slowly down her cheek.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Arya VI

Goodwife Harra slapped her so hard that her swollen lip broke open all over again. "And keep that tongue to yourself or you'll get worse. No one asked your views."

The blood in her mouth had a salty metal tang to it. Arya dropped her gaze and said nothing. If I still had Needle, she wouldn't dare hit me, she thought sullenly.

 

A Clash of Kings - Theon I

His father slid his fingers under the necklace and gave it a yank so hard it was like to take Theon's head off, had the chain not snapped first. "My daughter has taken an axe for a lover," Lord Balon said. "I will not have my son bedeck himself like a whore." He dropped the broken chain onto the brazier, where it slid down among the coals. "It is as I feared. The green lands have made you soft, and the Starks have made you theirs."

"You're wrong. Ned Stark was my gaoler, but my blood is still salt and iron."

 

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion X

Tyrion saw a slave being whipped, blow after blow, until his back was nothing but blood and raw meat. A file of men marched past in irons, clanking with every step; they carried spears and wore short swords, but chains linked them wrist to wrist and ankle to ankle. The air smelled of roasting meat, and he saw one man skinning a dog for his stewpot.

He saw the dead as well, and heard the dying. Under the drifting smoke, the smell of horses, and the sharp salt tang of the bay was a stink of blood and shit. 

 

ADWD -- The Ugly Little Girl

"Sit," the priest commanded. She sat. "Now close your eyes, child." She closed her eyes. "This will hurt," he warned her, "but pain is the price of power. Do not move."

Still as stone, she thought. She sat unmoving. The cut was quick, the blade sharp. By rights the metal should have been cold against her flesh, but it felt warm instead. She could feel the blood washing down her face, a rippling red curtain falling across her brow and cheeks and chin, and she understood why the priest had made her close her eyes. When it reached her lips the taste was salt and copper. She licked at it and shivered.

"Bring me the face," said the kindly man.  The waif made no answer, but she could hear her slippers whispering over the stone floor. To the girl he said, "Drink this," and pressed a cup into her hand. She drank it down at once. It was very tart, like biting into a lemon. A thousand years ago, she had known a girl who loved lemon cakes. No, that was not me, that was only Arya.

This was a blood exchange -- 'only death can pay for life' and all that jazz.  Bran's life was exchanged for Sam and Gilly:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Samwell IV

The living have no place at the feasts of the dead. It tore the heart from Sam to hold his silence then. Bran's not dead, Jon, he wanted to stay. He's with friends, and they're going north on a giant elk to find a three-eyed crow in the depths of the haunted forest. It sounded so mad that there were times Sam Tarly thought he must have dreamt it all, conjured it whole from fever and fear and hunger . . . but he would have blurted it out anyway, if he had not given his word.

Three times he had sworn to keep the secret; once to Bran himself, once to that strange boy Jojen Reed, and last of all to Coldhands. "The world believes the boy is dead," his rescuer had said as they parted. "Let his bones lie undisturbed. We want no seekers coming after us. Swear it, Samwell of the Night's Watch. Swear it for the life you owe me."

 

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1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Besides what you've touched on, the other notable reference to 'salty' is that blood tastes salty, and the Wall itself is held up by blood magic, or built of blood, as related by Ygritte -- so when the Wall cries it's liable to cry salty tears of blood serum:

A Storm of Swords - Jon IV

"It's made of ice," Jon pointed out.

"You know nothing, Jon Snow. This wall is made o' blood."

Nor had it drunk its fill. By sunset, two of the Thenns had fallen from the ladder to their deaths, but they were the last. It was near midnight before Jon reached the top. The stars were out again, and Ygritte was trembling from the climb. "I almost fell," she said, with tears in her eyes. "Twice. Thrice. The Wall was trying t' shake me off, I could feel it." One of the tears broke free and trickled slowly down her cheek.

 

That excerpt with Ygritte's tear seems directly relevant to the OP with the tear falling on Bran. I wonder whether it was supposed to be (symbolically) Ygritte's tear that fell on Bran? As you know, I have this suspicion that references to noses are linked to Ygritte's famous line, "You know nothing . . . " The tear from the Black Gate slides down Bran's nose . . .

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12 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

It's weird that you should mention guest right, since we shouldn't forget that Bran and co are passing through someone's mouth -- the gate/weirwood tree is literally eating them!  The 'salty warm tear' can also be thought of as saliva from the lip brushing against Bran's head.  The image of passing through a maw/yaw(ning)/jaw, whenever recapitulated, has an undertone of menace -- e.g. Robb and co at the Red Wedding pass through the jaws of the portcullis which shut after them as they enter to their final supper; then Bran and co in Bloodraven's cave which is likened to a massive mouth with upper and lower rows of teeth.

This is exactly my thought...bran is meat (especially compared to the Others or Wights, the living are often referred to as meat). There is a lot of "meat" on the bones of this one but I have not been able to pull it together in a cogent way.

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15 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

That's an interesting observation.  So, how specifically is 'fire conquering ice' here in Bran's case, as evidenced by the warm tear-like fluid?  Are you saying Bran representing fire is conquering the black gate representing ice?  How can he be conquering it when he is passing through its mouth as if it's devouring him?

I don't think Bran crossing into the Lands Beyond the Wall are him conquering anything.  I just think its a clue that when the Wall weeps, it weeps salt.  I also don't think Bran represents fire in this narrative at all.

Not to go all Bill Nye on this fantasy story, but GRRM has said that the Others' weapons are literally ice, but infused with magic.  Fire is a great weapon against ice, but salt is a hell of an ice repellent.  It seems to me that building the wall out of halite would have been the ideal material for keeping ice beings out.  

I think the wall being a giant block of salt just makes the prophecy read more easily as it relates to Jon.  GRRM usually layers his metaphors, so I imagine we'll have the smoking wound, sure, but also I would imagine there will be some literal elements of smoke in Melisandre's ritual, it might take place in a cured meat storeroom or something like that, etc.  It's also worth nothing that Jon was "reborn" in a very real way when he became a leader during the Battle at Castle Black, when half the castle was burning.  Just some food for thought.

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Anyone else see it almost like the Black Gate is birthing them into the land beyond the wall?  Yes, I know it's a mouth, but the opening gets wider and wider until there is no face at all and then out they go - seems to me like birth at least symbolically!  The books are full of rebirth stuff.

The Black Gate is something different from the weirwood trees - It is made of weirwood rather than being a whole intact weirwood tree, it opens its eyes, speaks, opens its mouth and it glows!  With the whiteness, the glowing and the face, it's like a little indoor moon!  As it's not actually a tree (as far as we can see) I'm not sure if it could be connected to the weirnet (and if Bran could inhabit it).  Also no idea if it's controlled by a 3rd party or is just enchanted with that one magic function that it repeats any time a black brother appears on its threshold.

Bran mentions that the sound of water gets louder as they descend the well to the Gate and, being a well, it makes sense that it also leads to a water source.  Jojen also asks earlier in the chapter if Sam & Gilly got through the wall using an underground river.  We know there are underground rivers all over the place, so if there's one under the nightfort, it could be the source of the salt water maybe? How it drops down from above Bran isn't clear.  

The salty tear I think increases the sense that the Gate is alive and there are lots of references to the wall being alive - it defends itself, it weeps, it changes appearance, etc.

Man, I love stuff about the nightfort!  It and the Shadow Tower are fascinating!

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4 hours ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

Anyone else see it almost like the Black Gate is birthing them into the land beyond the wall?  Yes, I know it's a mouth, but the opening gets wider and wider until there is no face at all and then out they go - seems to me like birth at least symbolically!  The books are full of rebirth stuff.

This is interesting, and might connect to a scene involving all the same players: when Bran and his traveling companions take shelter in the Queenscrown tower, Hodor has to boost everyone through a "murder hole" before climbing up himself. I saw this as the reverse of a birth process, as if the babies have to climb into the mother's womb. If the symbolism of the Queenscrown scene is linked to the Black Gate "rebirth," however, we might be seeing a symbolic death followed by a symbolic birth as the Bran & Co. pass beneath the Wall.

If the tear that Ygritte sheds as she stands on top of the Wall connects to the tear that falls on Bran as he crosses under the Wall, that could also strengthen the not-birth / birth symbolism in the two scenes. As Bran is hiding in the Queenscrown, Jon and Ygritte are at the ruin of the old inn, confronted with the silent man that Jon refuses to kill. Ygritte kills the silent man as Jon, with help from the direwolf Summer, confirms that he never left the Night's Watch and escapes from the wildlings on horseback. (I have interpreted that scene as the equivalent of Jon Snow as Edmund Pevensie and Ygritte as the White Witch killing the old man who is really a manifestation of the direwolf Ghost / Aslan.) Jon returns to Castle Black and is soon in a tower with "two living brothers" and some straw men, but he will soon be "reborn" as the Lord Commander.

Also interesting to note that the direwolf Summer is present for both Bran and Jon at these death/rebirth scenes.

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1 hour ago, Seams said:

This is interesting, and might connect to a scene involving all the same players: when Bran and his traveling companions take shelter in the Queenscrown tower, Hodor has to boost everyone through a "murder hole" before climbing up himself. I saw this as the reverse of a birth process, as if the babies have to climb into the mother's womb. If the symbolism of the Queenscrown scene is linked to the Black Gate "rebirth," however, we might be seeing a symbolic death followed by a symbolic birth as the Bran & Co. pass beneath the Wall.

If the tear that Ygritte sheds as she stands on top of the Wall connects to the tear that falls on Bran as he crosses under the Wall, that could also strengthen the not-birth / birth symbolism in the two scenes. As Bran is hiding in the Queenscrown, Jon and Ygritte are at the ruin of the old inn, confronted with the silent man that Jon refuses to kill. Ygritte kills the silent man as Jon, with help from the direwolf Summer, confirms that he never left the Night's Watch and escapes from the wildlings on horseback. (I have interpreted that scene as the equivalent of Jon Snow as Edmund Pevensie and Ygritte as the White Witch killing the old man who is really a manifestation of the direwolf Ghost / Aslan.) Jon returns to Castle Black and is soon in a tower with "two living brothers" and some straw men, but he will soon be "reborn" as the Lord Commander.

Also interesting to note that the direwolf Summer is present for both Bran and Jon at these death/rebirth scenes.

Interesting possible connections Seams! I'd forgotten they had to get into Queenscrown that way. 

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On 11/1/2017 at 3:41 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

This sounds like the door is kissing Bran on the forehead and a tear fell from the mother's eye. Bran seems to have a thing that makes inanimate objects turn human to comfort him. Weird :blink:

Memba' this?

  • A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

    "I beg . . ." The maester swallowed. ". . . a . . . a drink of water, and . . . another boon. If you would . . ."
"Aye." She turned to Meera. "Take the boys."
Jojen and Meera led Rickon out between them. Hodor followed. Low branches whipped at Bran's face as they pushed between the trees, and the leaves brushed away his tears. Osha joined them in the yard a few moments later. She said no word of Maester Luwin. "Hodor must stay with Bran, to be his legs," the wildling woman said briskly. "I will take Rickon with me."
"We'll go with Bran," said Jojen Reed.

Please! I want your version to be true :D Desperately

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2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Please! I want your version to be true :D Desperately

Haha. Meee to! That's my baby Bran :wub:

All kidding aside, in my mind, the Black Gate never seemed to fit into this story the way the other "magic" things have. This is about the only magic item that is animated and has some sort of "consciousness". Anyway, a while back, after another Black Gate thread somewhere, I started to look into what the hell could have been the inspiration for the BG??? This was the best I could find...

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

"There's a gate," said fat Sam. "A hidden gate, as old as the Wall itself. The Black Gate, he called it."
The Reeds exchanged a look. "We'll find this gate at the bottom of the well?" asked Jojen.
Sam shook his head. "You won't. I have to take you."

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

That was the only thing he liked about the kitchens, though. The roof was mostly there, so they'd be dry if it rained again, but he didn't think they would ever get warm here. You could feel the cold seeping up through the slate floor. Bran did not like the shadows either, or the huge brick ovens that surrounded them like open mouths, or the rusted meat hooks, or the scars and stains he saw in the butcher's block along one wall. That was where the Rat Cook chopped the prince to pieces, he knew, and he baked the pie in one of these ovens.
The well was the thing he liked the least, though. It was a good twelve feet across, all stone, with steps built into its side, circling down and down into darkness. The walls were damp and covered with niter, but none of them could see the water at the bottom, not even Meera with her sharp hunter's eyes. "Maybe it doesn't have a bottom," Bran said uncertainly.
 
  • one of its most fascinating features is located beneath the ground – a pair of wells spiraling deep within the earth.
  • The wells were never used, nor intended for water collection. Instead, these mysterious underground towers were used for secretive initiation rites. 
  • The pair of wells, known as the ‘Initiation Wells’ or ‘Inverted Towers’, consist of ‘winding stair’ architecture, which carries symbolic meaning including the death/rebirth allegory common to many hermetic traditions.

  • One of the wells contains nine platforms, which are said to be “reminiscent of the Divine Comedy by Dante and the nine circles of Hell, the nine sections of Purgatory and the nine skies which constitute Paradise.

  • At the bottom of the well there is a compass over a Knights Templar cross, which is said to have been  Monteiro’s herald and a sign of his Rosicrucianism.

    • This actually reminds me of the dragon mosaic Jaime finds at the bottom of the well in KL when he is searching for Tyrion and the dragon talks to him and says he was waiting for Jaime.

Another thing I found interesting is that it seems to open for specific wording of the Night's Watch vows... which are not the "modern" Night's Watch vows. It opens for this:

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

They were white too, and blind. "Who are you?" the door asked, and the well whispered, "Who-who-who-who-who-who-who."
"I am the sword in the darkness," Samwell Tarly said. "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."
"Then pass," the door said.

The saltiness is strange because it is said that the ice for the wall came from lakes in the Haunted Forest. Lakes are generally fresh water, yes, with a few rare exceptions. However, this information is passed on through maester's and we know that maester's cannot be trusted with Northern history. Just as you can't trust "Good" Queen Alysanne to do the right thing in the North as well ;)

ADDING: Now that I think about it, if GRRM did take these initiation wells as inspiration, maybe that kiss and drop of salt is like a baptism???

The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

ADDING AGAIN: Ok. Why is the wall always weeping??? Check here. Well, Bran and Jon both have deep connections to Bloodraven. In life, Brynden Rivers had his loyal following of archers called the Raven's Teeth. During Jon's time as LC of the NW, he implements daily archery training because he says it is a skill that has been neglected. Jon also personally fights off the wildlings during the first battle while on top of the wall with his archer brothers.

Brynden Bloodraven Rivers is most known for his kinslaying while on the Weeping Ridge at the Battle of Redgrass Field. There was some guilt with that and it got BR sent to the wall by A5. I am not making any claims that BR is watching Bran and/or Jon through the wall, merely this is George keeping within the theme of the story by making these connections. All three, Bloodraven, Bran and Jon, have a connection to a weeping wall/ridge.

The Weeping Ridge was a ridge integral in the defeat of Daemon Blackfyre at the Battle of the Redgrass Field.[1]

Battle of the Redgrass Field

After Daemon Blackfyre's defeat of Ser Gwayne Corbray of the Kingsguard, he stayed to defend him while the battle swept around them. While he was defending the fallen knight, Bloodraven and his Raven's Teeth had reached the top of Weeping Ridge and began targeting Daemon's standard. From this vantage point Bloodraven and his Raven's Teeth killed Daemon and his twin sons, Aegon and Aemon Blackfyre.[1]

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Nice post @The Fattest Leech !

While I was reading your points about the inverted towers in Portugal it made me think of the well / vertical tunnel in the red keep too, and then you called it out :cheers:. There's another one in The Red Keep that Varys and Illyrio come up through when Arya is hiding in a room just off the dragon skull room. They seal it up again with a huge slab of stone that comes down from the ceiling. The thing with all of these is that they all seem to have secrets to do with how they are accessed.  The Black Gate has the vows, the dragon mural well's top access is hidden behind a fireplace, the Varys/Illyrio well has a secret point in the wall to raise/lower the cover slab and Queenscrown (mentioned above by @Seams) has the hidden causeway to get to the tower.

The Black Gate is described as being as old as the wall itself which, I'm pretty sure, means that it pre-dates the Nightfort.  

From the World book:

Quote

Maesters who served at the Nightfort whilst it was still in use made it plain that the castle had been expanded upon many times over the centuries and that little remained of its original structure save for some of the deepest vaults chiseled out of the rock beneath the castle’s feet.

I wonder whether any of these vaults (including lower levels of the well) were there even before the wall, like the caves and caverns we've seen all over the place.  The presence of weirwoods and an underground cavern makes me wonder if there was ever a seat of ancient greenseers there.  (Sorry, @pigpiginsunspear I realise I've veered off topic now!)

Still pondering the salt...

If salt water needs an even lower temp to freeze then it might not be wise to use it for building the wall as it would melt at lower temperatures than regular ice.  Unless salt repels the Others of course ^_^

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11 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Haha. Meee to! That's my baby Bran :wub:

All kidding aside, in my mind, the Black Gate never seemed to fit into this story the way the other "magic" things have. This is about the only magic item that is animated and has some sort of "consciousness". Anyway, a while back, after another Black Gate thread somewhere, I started to look into what the hell could have been the inspiration for the BG??? This was the best I could find...

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

"There's a gate," said fat Sam. "A hidden gate, as old as the Wall itself. The Black Gate, he called it."
The Reeds exchanged a look. "We'll find this gate at the bottom of the well?" asked Jojen.
Sam shook his head. "You won't. I have to take you."

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

That was the only thing he liked about the kitchens, though. The roof was mostly there, so they'd be dry if it rained again, but he didn't think they would ever get warm here. You could feel the cold seeping up through the slate floor. Bran did not like the shadows either, or the huge brick ovens that surrounded them like open mouths, or the rusted meat hooks, or the scars and stains he saw in the butcher's block along one wall. That was where the Rat Cook chopped the prince to pieces, he knew, and he baked the pie in one of these ovens.
The well was the thing he liked the least, though. It was a good twelve feet across, all stone, with steps built into its side, circling down and down into darkness. The walls were damp and covered with niter, but none of them could see the water at the bottom, not even Meera with her sharp hunter's eyes. "Maybe it doesn't have a bottom," Bran said uncertainly.
 
  • one of its most fascinating features is located beneath the ground – a pair of wells spiraling deep within the earth.
  • The wells were never used, nor intended for water collection. Instead, these mysterious underground towers were used for secretive initiation rites. 
  • The pair of wells, known as the ‘Initiation Wells’ or ‘Inverted Towers’, consist of ‘winding stair’ architecture, which carries symbolic meaning including the death/rebirth allegory common to many hermetic traditions.

  • One of the wells contains nine platforms, which are said to be “reminiscent of the Divine Comedy by Dante and the nine circles of Hell, the nine sections of Purgatory and the nine skies which constitute Paradise.

  • At the bottom of the well there is a compass over a Knights Templar cross, which is said to have been  Monteiro’s herald and a sign of his Rosicrucianism.

    • This actually reminds me of the dragon mosaic Jaime finds at the bottom of the well in KL when he is searching for Tyrion and the dragon talks to him and says he was waiting for Jaime.

Another thing I found interesting is that it seems to open for specific wording of the Night's Watch vows... which are not the "modern" Night's Watch vows. It opens for this:

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

They were white too, and blind. "Who are you?" the door asked, and the well whispered, "Who-who-who-who-who-who-who."
"I am the sword in the darkness," Samwell Tarly said. "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."
"Then pass," the door said.
 

 

Yes, I have just re-read the chapter. I didn't remember it was the one in which Bran remembers Old Nan's story about the origins and demise of the Night's King, as well. And how Bran's reacts negatively to the fact he could have been connected to the Stark family. He rejects this but fully understands that it was an ordinary man that decided to follow the night and force the others to do the same (even if he is told it was for woman, he reckons it was for not having fear----Bran is smart).

Yes, to me it's the same. It's a gate that opens with ancient spells from the Night Watch/The Wall itself, it has to do with something that happened many years ago and involves any of this people. The Night Watch? Brandon the Builder? The Night's King?

Even if I could buy a future Bran is involved, I prefer to think the former.

It's also interesting Bran dislikes the wells, could that mean that he instinctively knows what parts are created/constructed with good magic/intentions and others that were created/constructed with bad spells (if that is the case)?

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The saltiness is strange because it is said that the ice for the wall came from lakes in the Haunted Forest. Lakes are generally fresh water, yes, with a few rare exceptions. However, this information is passed on through maester's and we know that maester's cannot be trusted with Northern history. Just as you can't trust "Good" Queen Alysanne to do the right thing in the North as well ;)

ADDING: Now that I think about it, if GRRM did take these initiation wells as inspiration, maybe that kiss and drop of salt is like a baptism???

The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

ADDING AGAIN: Ok. Why is the wall always weeping??? Check here. Well, Bran and Jon both have deep connections to Bloodraven. In life, Brynden Rivers had his loyal following of archers called the Raven's Teeth. During Jon's time as LC of the NW, he implements daily archery training because he says it is a skill that has been neglected. Jon also personally fights off the wildlings during the first battle while on top of the wall with his archer brothers.

Brynden Bloodraven Rivers is most known for his kinslaying while on the Weeping Ridge at the Battle of Redgrass Field. There was some guilt with that and it got BR sent to the wall by A5. I am not making any claims that BR is watching Bran and/or Jon through the wall, merely this is George keeping within the theme of the story by making these connections. All three, Bloodraven, Bran and Jon, have a connection to a weeping wall/ridge.

The Weeping Ridge was a ridge integral in the defeat of Daemon Blackfyre at the Battle of the Redgrass Field.[1]

Battle of the Redgrass Field

After Daemon Blackfyre's defeat of Ser Gwayne Corbray of the Kingsguard, he stayed to defend him while the battle swept around them. While he was defending the fallen knight, Bloodraven and his Raven's Teeth had reached the top of Weeping Ridge and began targeting Daemon's standard. From this vantage point Bloodraven and his Raven's Teeth killed Daemon and his twin sons, Aegon and Aemon Blackfyre.[1]


Your theories are interesting. I don't know what to think of the saltiness, either, but I like the idea of baptism and that it might be an indirect way to connect the three characters.

Maybe now, with this kind of baptism, Bran  would be allowed to have access to the Gate in a future like a member of the Night Watch if he needs it.

 

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I am coming back to this fresh this morning and reading the new comments. I am also recalling a couple of previous discussions about the Night Fort and the Black Gate that might get at the heart of the "tear" that falls on Bran as he passes through the gate.

I didn't save a link, but I am forever indebted to @YOVMO, who highlighted a line of dialogue that appears to be stupid on its face. Here is a chunk of the initial theory he inspired me to post, based on his catch of Jojen's (apparently) dumb line upon seeing the Night Fort for the first time:

... it was helpful to me to stumble across a thread begun by YOVMO discussing a phrase uttered by Jojen. He and his companions explore the Night Fort and Jojen says, "This seems an old place." YOVMO's point was essentially, "Well duh, Jojen." The old, abandoned fort is old. Quite obvious unless you examine the subtext, suggested by a pun on "seems" and "seams." If you re-read the phrase with a seam in mind, Jojen's insight is that the Night Fort holds together two places that meet there; it is a "seam" between - - what? We know that this becomes the place where Bran and his group will find entrance beyond the Wall and where Sam and Gilly and Gilly's baby will find a path back to Castle Black. So maybe it's simply a gate between beyond and below the Wall. But no one has said that Eastwatch or Castle Black "seems an old place." So why is the Night Fort a seam?

I think the author wants us to compare Winterfell and the Night Fort. Jojen's "seems" observation and the alternate definition of "fell" as a seam strengthen this comparison.

@The Fattest Leech suggested last night that the seam common to both places could be a connection between magic and non-magic existence.

Based on the assumption that there is an important seam at the Night Fort, the pun on tear / tear makes more sense in both the excerpt cited by @ravenous reader, featuring Ygritte shedding a tear after her difficult climb over the Wall, and the "tear" that falls on Bran at the mouth of the Black Gate. I think GRRM is telling us that the fabric that separates the magic and non-magic worlds tears when Ygritte and Bran pass through the barriers - the seams - that separate the realms. The salty drops are tears but - through the magic of wordplay - they symbolize rips in the fabric.

Somewhere in this forum I have mused that there is a balance that is supposed to be maintained between the Craster blood (which I suspect is an old Stark family line) beyond the Wall and the Stark blood below the Wall. So Gilly's baby comes through the Black Gate beyond the Wall just as Bran goes through the Gate in the other direction. This reinforces the rebirth imagery and, I think, puts Sam Tarly in the position of being the "midwife," "delivering" Gilly and Craster's baby below the Wall. (There is a recent thread exploring the purpose of the Three Sisters chapter in Davos's journey to White Harbor, and one comment points out the important symbolism of Davos arriving in Sisterton on a ship called The Merry Midwife. I think this underscores that Davos is similarly "reborn" as he enters the North.)

12 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

ADDING: Now that I think about it, if GRRM did take these initiation wells as inspiration, maybe that kiss and drop of salt is like a baptism???

The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

Once again, TFL hits the nail on the head. The baptism imagery fits perfectly with the rebirth symbolism. But the well structure is also significant and worth discussing further. I was always intrigued that the stairs to the Winterfell library are on the outside of the library tower. We know this because Tyrion describes them when he spends a night in the library with Septon Chayle. What ends up happening to Septon Chayle later in the series? He is thrown in a well. But! Septon Chayle has told Bran that he is a great swimmer, who learned to swim in the river called the White Knife. What is one way to tear fabric? Cut it with a knife (as Sansa does to her sheets, iirc, when she "flowers" in her bed at King's Landing and doesn't want her maid to find out and tell Cersei). So the symbolic evidence would seem to confirm the suspicion in this forum that Septon Chayle found and swam through a secret tunnel in the well, surviving to escape the takeover of Winterfell.

Apparently wells and towers should be examined together. My mind is spinning - the story that Ashara Dayne flung herself off a tower takes on a whole new meaning. Was this story a way of conveying that, symbolically, Ashara passed through a portal of some kind and that she is hiding? (I do have the beginnings of a theory about Septa Mordayne . . . ) What about Shagwell, Pyg and Timeon climbing out of a well at Crackclaw Point?

I don't know how far GRRM wants us to go in deciphering symbols by stringing them together, but the seams, tears and towers and wells all seem to fit into one potential roadmap. There are Literal or symbolic portals at the places where "tears" occur. (Further evidence: the waterfall known as Alyssa's Tears is at the Eyrie, where there is also a Moon Door made of weirwood. People who exit via the Moon Door are not-so-magically made to "fly". There is a difficult exterior path up and down the side of the mountain leading to the Moon Door, similar to the path down and up Aegon's Hill at King's Landing leading from the Red Keep where Arya sees Varys and - we believe - Ilyrio coming up from a hidden interior well.)

Now I feel as if I need to return to the Winterfell library, however, to figure out why books and scrolls are like water in a well. Or maybe the point is that books are like magical portals. That would make sense.

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47 minutes ago, Seams said:

I am coming back to this fresh this morning and reading the new comments. I am also recalling a couple of previous discussions about the Night Fort and the Black Gate that might get at the heart of the "tear" that falls on Bran as he passes through the gate.

I didn't save a link, but I am forever indebted to @YOVMO, who highlighted a line of dialogue that appears to be stupid on its face. Here is a chunk of the initial theory he inspired me to post, based on his catch of Jojen's (apparently) dumb line upon seeing the Night Fort for the first time:

... it was helpful to me to stumble across a thread begun by YOVMO discussing a phrase uttered by Jojen. He and his companions explore the Night Fort and Jojen says, "This seems an old place." YOVMO's point was essentially, "Well duh, Jojen." The old, abandoned fort is old. Quite obvious unless you examine the subtext, suggested by a pun on "seems" and "seams." If you re-read the phrase with a seam in mind, Jojen's insight is that the Night Fort holds together two places that meet there; it is a "seam" between - - what? We know that this becomes the place where Bran and his group will find entrance beyond the Wall and where Sam and Gilly and Gilly's baby will find a path back to Castle Black. So maybe it's simply a gate between beyond and below the Wall. But no one has said that Eastwatch or Castle Black "seems an old place." So why is the Night Fort a seam?

I think the author wants us to compare Winterfell and the Night Fort. Jojen's "seems" observation and the alternate definition of "fell" as a seam strengthen this comparison.

Great post @Seams

I remember that conversation. It turned into a really good one! Especially the "seaming" point that, looking back, was just so clear!!! Tricksy George.

I am going to tag @OberynBlackfyre in this discussion because I think he started to share some of these ideas in another thread a few weeks ago.

Were wells such as this one and the other ones mentioned added to your thread about Portals??? I can't remember. If not, what a great addition.

Quote

Based on the assumption that there is an important seam at the Night Fort, the pun on tear / tear makes more sense in both the excerpt cited by @ravenous reader, featuring Ygritte shedding a tear after her difficult climb over the Wall, and the "tear" that falls on Bran at the mouth of the Black Gate. I think GRRM is telling us that the fabric that separates the magic and non-magic worlds tears when Ygritte and Bran pass through the barriers - the seams - that separate the realms. The salty drops are tears but - through the magic of wordplay - they symbolize rips in the fabric.

There is a lot of emotion that is tied to the wall. Anger, fear, awe, sadness, trepidation. Almost all of the type of emotions that makes one cry for one reason or another.

One thing is becoming more apparent, what "Good" Queen Alysanne did to the north that Jaehaerys supported was not good at all. Not for the people, not for the watch, not for the naturally occurring magic and how it connects to wargs and skinchangers, and in the long game how it is putting the whole of Westeros at risk. All for what???

Quote

Somewhere in this forum I have mused that there is a balance that is supposed to be maintained between the Craster blood (which I suspect is an old Stark family line) beyond the Wall and the Stark blood below the Wall. So Gilly's baby comes through the Black Gate beyond the Wall just as Bran goes through the Gate in the other direction. This reinforces the rebirth imagery and, I think, puts Sam Tarly in the position of being the "midwife," "delivering" Gilly and Craster's baby below the Wall. (There is a recent thread exploring the purpose of the Three Sisters chapter in Davos's journey to White Harbor, and one comment points out the important symbolism of Davos arriving in Sisterton on a ship called The Merry Midwife. I think this underscores that Davos is similarly "reborn" as he enters the North.)

Hmmm, I have been dabbling in Davos a little recently and this falls right in line with the other North/Dorne comparison's I have found. Thank you.

 

Quote

So the symbolic evidence would seem to confirm the suspicion in this forum that Septon Chayle found and swam through a secret tunnel in the well, surviving to escape the takeover of Winterfell.

I admit that I cannot remember that much about Septon Chayle off the top of my head... but I am going in for a reboot now! Thank you.

Quote

 

I don't know how far GRRM wants us to go in deciphering symbols by stringing them together,

~snipped~

Now I feel as if I need to return to the Winterfell library, however, to figure out why books and scrolls are like water in a well. Or maybe the point is that books are like magical portals. That would make sense.

To the bold. I think this is one of the trickiest things about this story when trying to decipher the codes. :cheers:

The saltiness appears to have a few symbolic connections, I just wonder how, in the story, the wall became to be salty.

I do admit that I like both ideas that salt is a "ward" against the wights/Others. Maybe that is why Othor and Jafer Flowers were able to resurrect back at Castle Black, because they did not have to touch the wall to pass??? @Clegane'sPup had some similar thoughts on this recently.

I also like @YOVMO connection to bread and salt as part of invoking northern guest rights.

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16 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The saltiness appears to have a few symbolic connections, I just wonder how, in the story, the wall became to be salty.

I do admit that I like both ideas that salt is a "ward" against the wights/Others.

Of course, there might be a pun on "salt" and "last" : The Last Hero?

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2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I do admit that I like both ideas that salt is a "ward" against the wights/Others. Maybe that is why Othor and Jafer Flowers were able to resurrect back at Castle Black, because they did not have to touch the wall to pass??? @Clegane'sPup had some similar thoughts on this recently.

I also like @YOVMO connection to bread and salt as part of invoking northern guest rights.

Nice post.  Just want to reiterate, that i don't believe the "salt" ward idea, because Cotter Pyke notes that the undead are underwater (at sea).  Could be a ward against the Others, but also unlikely (would be pointless to ward off the Others but the wights).

I like the guest rights theory.

But Bran warging into the Door and shedding a tear is my favorite!

Again though, could be nothing but foreshadowing or setting a somber mood.

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3 minutes ago, pigpiginsunspear said:

Nice post.  Just want to reiterate, that i don't believe the "salt" ward idea, because Cotter Pyke notes that the undead are underwater (at sea).  Could be a ward against the Others, but also unlikely (would be pointless to ward off the Others but the wights).

 

Ah! I keep forgetting about that part... and I don't know why???

This has been a good thread, though. Thanks.

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