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Queen of [Love and?] Beauty


The Twinslayer

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Here is some food for thought.  The title "Queen of Love and Beauty" is used in almost all of the books to describe a woman honored at the end of a tournament by the winner of the joust.  But when Ned describes the moment when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna, he leaves out the "Love" (and the capital letters) and says that Lyanna was simply crowned the "queen of beauty."  Does this tell us anything significant about the Rhaegar/Lyanna relationship?   

Some background:  the earliest use of "Queen of Love and Beauty" is in The Hedge Knight, when Lord Ashford crowns his daughter at the beginning of the tournament with the expectation that the champions will choose a new Queen of Love and Beauty at the end. The second is in ACOK when we learn that Ser Jorah crowned Lynesse Hightower Queen of Love and Beauty, asked for her hand, and married her.  Cersei recalls being crowned Queen of Love and Beauty by Jaime, Prince Aemon the Dragonknight crowned Queen Naerys whom he loved but could not marry, and Barristan wishes he had crowned Ashara at the Harrenhal tournament, thinking that she would have returned his love.  In other words, when it refers to the title bestowed by a tournament champion, there is often a marriage or (when marriage is not possible), reciprocated love. 

In contrast, the title "queen of beauty" is used only twice in the books.  The first use is by Littlefinger when he tells Sansa:  "Your mother was my queen of beauty once."  There, we know that Littlefinger had an unhealthy obsession with Catelyn and that she did not reciprocate his "love." 

The other time "queen of beauty" is used is in Ned Stark's description of the "moment all the smiles died."  "Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap.  He could see it still:  a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.  Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden.  He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling in the dark." 

So is this perhaps a clue to the nature of the Rhaegar/Lyanna relationship?  That it was like the Littlefinger/Catelyn relationship -- a man with an unhealthy obsession and the lady who rejected him?

Interestingly enough, Viserys appears to have told a different story to Dany:  she thinks Rhaegar crowned Lyanna queen of love and beauty:  "But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!" said Dany.  "Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed.  How could he do that?"

Of course, Ned was there when it happened and he was the last person to speak with Lyanna before she died, so Ned is probably more reliable on this.  The only other person who was there when it happened and who talks about it was Barristan Selmy, and he thinks Lyanna was crowned Queen of Love and Beauty.  But he was lying in the mud at the time, having just been unhorsed by Rhaegar, and there is nothing to suggest that he ever saw Lyanna again after that day.  Finally, anyone witnessing the scene would use the normal term for this crowning -- Queen of Love and Beauty -- because that it what it is always called.  Thus, Ned's use of a different phrase -- and the fact that the difference is the omission of the word "love" -- is a way of catching the reader's attention.  

So perhaps this is a clue that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna against her will.  Or at least, a clue that that is what Ned believed after speaking with her on her deathbed.  

 

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That's an interesting find! 

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So is this perhaps a clue to the nature of the Rhaegar/Lyanna relationship?  That it was like the Littlefinger/Catelyn relationship -- a man with an unhealthy obsession and the lady who rejected him?

Perhaps it's a clue to their relationship, or a clue to how Ned interpreted their relationship.  

Lyanna died with winter rose petals turned black in her hand, which many interpret as Lyanna having kept the laurel from the Harrenhal tourney.  If there were only one whose feelings were unrequited, I would guess it'd be Lyanna.

There are two parallels to Rhaegar and Lyanna with regard to possible hints at their relationship that come to mind.  First is the rose that Sansa receives from Loras at the Hand's Tourney, which echoes the laurel that Lyanna receives from Rhaegar.  All the other girls receive white roses, but Sansa receives the red.  She misinterprets the rose as special, but when she recalls the tourney and the rose to Loras in Storm, he doesn't even remember it.  Tie this into the idea that the laurel was revenge on whichever Stark "dishonored" Ashara Dayne, who was his best friends sister and distant relative of Rhaegar's.  

Second is Jon and Ygritte's relationship.  She takes Jon "stealing her" as more special than it truly is, just like Sansa with the rose.  Jon doesn't want a relationship with Ygritte, but she's pushy and Jon does slowly fall in love with her.  During their sexual relationship, Jon often wonders if his father felt torn between having to choose between his mother and duty.  He's right, though it was Rhaegar that was torn between Lyanna (love) and Elia (duty), not Ned.

What happened between the Tourney and the Tower of Joy is unclear.  I think Rhaegar (eventually) fell in love with Lyanna; Ned, who understood the original slight behind crowning Lyanna, might have had doubts. 

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On 12. 1. 2017 at 9:29 PM, The Twinslayer said:

In other words, when it refers to the title bestowed by a tournament champion, there is often a marriage or (when marriage is not possible), reciprocated love.

BS. Barristan wonders if Ashara might, not would, have looked to him (whatever the phrase means), so there is absolutely no guarantee of reciprocated feelings, and Jorah's fortnight of marriage bliss doesn't exactly scream true love, either. And, curiously, even Baelish seems to be under an impression that, at least for a time, Cat reciprocated his feelings.

On 12. 1. 2017 at 9:29 PM, The Twinslayer said:

Of course, Ned was there when it happened and he was the last person to speak with Lyanna before she died, so Ned is probably more reliable on this.  The only other person who was there when it happened and who talks about it was Barristan Selmy,

/cough/ HR /cough/.

Or do you propose that Meera and Jojen somehow divined it from the clear air?

On 12. 1. 2017 at 9:29 PM, The Twinslayer said:

and he thinks Lyanna was crowned Queen of Love and Beauty. 

Interestingly, Meera thinks that, as well. Must have been mass hallucination or something.

On 12. 1. 2017 at 9:29 PM, The Twinslayer said:

But he was lying in the mud at the time, having just been unhorsed by Rhaegar

Fanfiction.

On 12. 1. 2017 at 9:29 PM, The Twinslayer said:

 and there is nothing to suggest that he ever saw Lyanna again after that day. 

In other words, nice bias there. The term QoLaB was first used two years after AGOT was published, and the Baelish use and Ned's use of "queen of beauty" are the only instances of use in AGOT. It may well be a sort of "continuity error", with GRRM deciding on the longer phrase only later. Or, if there was a deeper intent behind the use of a slightly different phrase, then it is possible that GRRM didn't want the "love" angle to be associated with R+L too early into the series.

Ned's use is the only time the phrase is used in possessive case. "Queen of beauty's" is definitely more elegant than "queen of love and beauty's", so language efficiency may have played a role. One way or another, practically any explanation for the difference is more plausible than that a feverish, starved Ned in the Black Cells used some supersecret code to undermine the notion of love which, at that point, wasn't even established.

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Some additional context: the phrase "queen of love and beauty" doesn't appear at all in the first book. Not even once. It doesn't exist. Conversely, the phrase "queen of beauty" appears twice, once spoken aloud by Littlefinger, once thought by Ned.

I'd rather speculate that George changed his mind between the books (there's a lot of that going on especially between AGOT and the rest of the series): initially, it was QOB, then he decided it was QOLAB after all.

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2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Some additional context: the phrase "queen of love and beauty" doesn't appear at all in the first book. Not even once. It doesn't exist. Conversely, the phrase "queen of beauty" appears twice, once spoken aloud by Littlefinger, once thought by Ned.

I'd rather speculate that George changed his mind between the books (there's a lot of that going on especially between AGOT and the rest of the series): initially, it was QOB, then he decided it was QOLAB after all.

This makes sense. although I feel "queen of beauty" is better since it is shorter and simpler.

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3 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Some additional context: the phrase "queen of love and beauty" doesn't appear at all in the first book. Not even once. It doesn't exist. Conversely, the phrase "queen of beauty" appears twice, once spoken aloud by Littlefinger, once thought by Ned.

 

That's what I meant.

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On ‎1‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 10:26 AM, Isobel Harper said:

That's an interesting find! 

Perhaps it's a clue to their relationship, or a clue to how Ned interpreted their relationship.  

Lyanna died with winter rose petals turned black in her hand, which many interpret as Lyanna having kept the laurel from the Harrenhal tourney.  If there were only one whose feelings were unrequited, I would guess it'd be Lyanna.

There are two parallels to Rhaegar and Lyanna with regard to possible hints at their relationship that come to mind.  First is the rose that Sansa receives from Loras at the Hand's Tourney, which echoes the laurel that Lyanna receives from Rhaegar.  All the other girls receive white roses, but Sansa receives the red.  She misinterprets the rose as special, but when she recalls the tourney and the rose to Loras in Storm, he doesn't even remember it.  Tie this into the idea that the laurel was revenge on whichever Stark "dishonored" Ashara Dayne, who was his best friends sister and distant relative of Rhaegar's.  

Second is Jon and Ygritte's relationship.  She takes Jon "stealing her" as more special than it truly is, just like Sansa with the rose.  Jon doesn't want a relationship with Ygritte, but she's pushy and Jon does slowly fall in love with her.  During their sexual relationship, Jon often wonders if his father felt torn between having to choose between his mother and duty.  He's right, though it was Rhaegar that was torn between Lyanna (love) and Elia (duty), not Ned.

What happened between the Tourney and the Tower of Joy is unclear.  I think Rhaegar (eventually) fell in love with Lyanna; Ned, who understood the original slight behind crowning Lyanna, might have had doubts. 

Some good points.  I suspect that the dead roses Lyanna was holding when she died may have been from the Harrenhal crown, but remember that Lyanna loved flowers.  If she was a captive, she might hold onto something beautiful that reminded her of home even if it was a gift from her captor. 

I also think there is another possible parallel to Sansa:  Joffrey's treatment of her.  When Sansa became engaged to Joffrey, Cersei gave her a Barratheon betrothal dress.  The description of that dress is the same as the description of the gore-spattered dress Lyanna was wearing in Theon's dream.  Sansa's dress is later dyed black when her father is killed, which also leads to the end of her betrothal.  The fact that Lyanna's is spattered with gore may symbolize the fact that her betrothal was ended by Rhaegar's violence. 

Then, when we seek how Joffrey treats Sansa in ACOK, we can perhaps imagine how Rhaegar treated Lyanna. 

On ‎1‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 8:25 AM, Ygrain said:

BS. Barristan wonders if Ashara might, not would, have looked to him (whatever the phrase means), so there is absolutely no guarantee of reciprocated feelings, and Jorah's fortnight of marriage bliss doesn't exactly scream true love, either. And, curiously, even Baelish seems to be under an impression that, at least for a time, Cat reciprocated his feelings.

/cough/ HR /cough/.

Or do you propose that Meera and Jojen somehow divined it from the clear air?

Interestingly, Meera thinks that, as well. Must have been mass hallucination or something.

Fanfiction.

In other words, nice bias there. The term QoLaB was first used two years after AGOT was published, and the Baelish use and Ned's use of "queen of beauty" are the only instances of use in AGOT. It may well be a sort of "continuity error", with GRRM deciding on the longer phrase only later. Or, if there was a deeper intent behind the use of a slightly different phrase, then it is possible that GRRM didn't want the "love" angle to be associated with R+L too early into the series.

Ned's use is the only time the phrase is used in possessive case. "Queen of beauty's" is definitely more elegant than "queen of love and beauty's", so language efficiency may have played a role. One way or another, practically any explanation for the difference is more plausible than that a feverish, starved Ned in the Black Cells used some supersecret code to undermine the notion of love which, at that point, wasn't even established.

Barristan/Jorah.  Barristan clearly believed that Ashara would have returned his affection if she knew about it.  And Jorah believed that Lynesse returned his, at least at the start. But if that were not true, it would only strengthen my point -- because if no woman in the series who was crowned queen of love and beauty actually loved the man who crowned her, then that makes it doubly obvious that Lyanna did not love Rhaegar.

Howland Reed.  There is no indication that Howland Reed witnessed the final tilt.  Indeed, if he was the knight of the laughing tree (or if he was just afraid of the knights who the knight unhorsed) then he fled before the final day of the tournament. 

Setting that aside, I think the general belief in Westeros was that Lyanna's title from the Harrenhal tournament was "Queen of Love and Beauty."  Surely, that is what Lord Whent named his daughter at the start of the tournament, so that is the title that passed when Rhaegar took the crown away from the Whent daughter and gave it to Lyanna.  I am more interested in the phrase Ned uses to describe it -- queen of beauty, with no "Love."  Because Ned knows things about Rhaegar and Lyanna that no-one else in Westeros knows.  Not even Howland Reed, who we know for sure was not present for the final conversation between Ned and Lyanna.

"Fanfiction" about Selmy.  It is well established by both Ned and Barristan that Barristan was unhorsed by Rhaegar in the final tilt.  For example:  "Robert had been jesting with old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown."  So at the moment when Rhaegar took the crown from the Whent daughter and gave it to Lyanna, Barristan was lying in the mud.  No fanfiction there.

On the introduction of the idea that Rhaegar & Lyanna may have been a love story, your timing is wrong.  We are introduced to the supposedly loving relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna before it is ever suggested that something else was going on.  In Dany's first chapter (Chapter 3 of Game of Thrones) we are told about "[h]er brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved."  Indeed, Rhaegar is portrayed in a very positive light, by Dany, the first time we hear of him, including the part about the Usurper's dogs murdering princess Elia and killing Rhaegar's heir, and the part about the Kingslayer murdering Aerys.

It isn't until the next chapter that we are told that Rhaegar "did" something to Lyanna and we learn that it was Robert who killed him on the Trident.  And it is not until much later that we are told what that "something" is.  And then we get the clue from Ned:  queen of beauty, not Queen of Love and Beauty.  That is what suggests that the first version we hear -- Dany's version with the Rhaegar/Lyanna love story -- is wrong.

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Hmm...

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"Approach," King Renly called to the champion.

He limped toward the gallery. At close hand, the brilliant blue armor looked rather less splendid; everywhere it showed scars, the dents of mace and warhammer, the long gouges left by swords, chips in the enameled breastplate and helm. His cloak hung in rags. From the way he moved, the man within was no less battered. A few voices hailed him with cries of "Tarth!" and, oddly, "A Beauty! A Beauty!" but most were silent. The blue knight knelt before the king. "Grace," he said, his voice muffled by his dented greathelm.

...

She heard King Renly declare the Lady Brienne of Tarth the victor of the great melee at Bitterbridge, last mounted of one hundred sixteen knights.

Catelyn II, Clash 22

So, Brienne won a tourney (the melee anyway), and she was named "A Beauty!" And of course, she is Jaime's love, isn't she? Does that make Brienne a queen of love and beauty? 

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5 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

Barristan/Jorah.  Barristan clearly believed that Ashara would have returned his affection if she knew about it. 

Incorrect. "If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, MIGHT she have looked to me instead of Stark?" is not an expression of clear belief.

5 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

And Jorah believed that Lynesse returned his, at least at the start. But if that were not true, it would only strengthen my point -- because if no woman in the series who was crowned queen of love and beauty actually loved the man who crowned her, then that makes it doubly obvious that Lyanna did not love Rhaegar.

Didn't you yourself mention Rhaella and Bonifer in your OP? That was reciprocated love.

5 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

Howland Reed.  There is no indication that Howland Reed witnessed the final tilt.  Indeed, if he was the knight of the laughing tree (or if he was just afraid of the knights who the knight unhorsed) then he fled before the final day of the tournament. 

There is no idnication that he didn't, either, and the idea that he would have fled is completely insubstantiated. You're making things up.

Besides, as Ned's close friend and ToJ companion, he didn't even need to witness it personally.

5 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

Setting that aside, I think the general belief in Westeros was that Lyanna's title from the Harrenhal tournament was "Queen of Love and Beauty."  Surely, that is what Lord Whent named his daughter at the start of the tournament, so that is the title that passed when Rhaegar took the crown away from the Whent daughter and gave it to Lyanna.  I am more interested in the phrase Ned uses to describe it -- queen of beauty, with no "Love."  Because Ned knows things about Rhaegar and Lyanna that no-one else in Westeros knows.  Not even Howland Reed, who we know for sure was not present for the final conversation between Ned and Lyanna.

No-one in all of AGOT uses the longer phrase, hence Ned is not really such an exception as you would like him to be.

5 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

"Fanfiction" about Selmy.  It is well established by both Ned and Barristan that Barristan was unhorsed by Rhaegar in the final tilt.  For example:  "Robert had been jesting with old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown."  So at the moment when Rhaegar took the crown from the Whent daughter and gave it to Lyanna, Barristan was lying in the mud.  No fanfiction there.

Oh yes, very much fanfiction. There is no indication that Barristan was incapacitated after being unhorsed, so there is no reason for him to remain lying in the mud the whole time while Rhaegar, as you yourself quoted, circled the field

5 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

On the introduction of the idea that Rhaegar & Lyanna may have been a love story, your timing is wrong.  We are introduced to the supposedly loving relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna before it is ever suggested that something else was going on.  In Dany's first chapter (Chapter 3 of Game of Thrones) we are told about "[h]er brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved."  Indeed, Rhaegar is portrayed in a very positive light, by Dany, the first time we hear of him, including the part about the Usurper's dogs murdering princess Elia and killing Rhaegar's heir, and the part about the Kingslayer murdering Aerys.

It isn't until the next chapter that we are told that Rhaegar "did" something to Lyanna and we learn that it was Robert who killed him on the Trident.  And it is not until much later that we are told what that "something" is.  And then we get the clue from Ned:  queen of beauty, not Queen of Love and Beauty.  That is what suggests that the first version we hear -- Dany's version with the Rhaegar/Lyanna love story -- is wrong.

Ah, c'mon, I know which info goes where. In Dany's first chapter we are not told how Rhaegar died for the woman he loved, we are told how Dany was told about Rhaegar, and then Dany's idealised third-hand version seems to be immediately trumped by the ugly truth. In other words, we are led to think that Viserys' account as well as glorification of Rhaegar is just another BS he believes, like about people making dragon standards in secret. Throughout the whole AGOT, the rape version and Rhaegar the black-hearted prince is the main and only one, with only a couple of subtle discrepancies. From ACOK on, though, the love angle is gradually getting support, until Barristan spells it out in his inner monologue, and so is Rhaegar as a decent person.

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5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Incorrect. "If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, MIGHT she have looked to me instead of Stark?" is not an expression of clear belief.

Didn't you yourself mention Rhaella and Bonifer in your OP? That was reciprocated love.

There is no idnication that he didn't, either, and the idea that he would have fled is completely insubstantiated. You're making things up.

Besides, as Ned's close friend and ToJ companion, he didn't even need to witness it personally.

No-one in all of AGOT uses the longer phrase, hence Ned is not really such an exception as you would like him to be.

Oh yes, very much fanfiction. There is no indication that Barristan was incapacitated after being unhorsed, so there is no reason for him to remain lying in the mud the whole time while Rhaegar, as you yourself quoted, circled the field

Ah, c'mon, I know which info goes where. In Dany's first chapter we are not told how Rhaegar died for the woman he loved, we are told how Dany was told about Rhaegar, and then Dany's idealised third-hand version seems to be immediately trumped by the ugly truth. In other words, we are led to think that Viserys' account as well as glorification of Rhaegar is just another BS he believes, like about people making dragon standards in secret. Throughout the whole AGOT, the rape version and Rhaegar the black-hearted prince is the main and only one, with only a couple of subtle discrepancies. From ACOK on, though, the love angle is gradually getting support, until Barristan spells it out in his inner monologue, and so is Rhaegar as a decent person.

With the exception of the fact that I did not mention Bonifer Hasty in the OP, the first few points are differences of opinion on which we can just agree to disagree.  

On the point about Barristan being unhorsed, it is safe to say he did not spring up to watch what Rhaegar would do next.  When Ser Duncan the Tall is unhorsed in TMK, he is knocked unconscious.  When Glendon Ball unhorses the Fiddler, "Men rushed onto the field where the Fiddler lay unmoving, facedown in a puddle."  The only person who springs up after being unhorsed at a tournament is the Mountain.  I think it is safe to say that after Rhaegar unhorsed him, Barristan took some time to recover.

More importantly, I am puzzled by your reading of the Rhaegar/Lyanna story in AGOT.  It is definitely set up as a love story from the beginning and that is not immediately contradicted.  The contradictory information is much more subtle.  

Here is the first information we get about Rhaegar and Lyanna, in Chapter 3 of AGOT, which is Dany remembering things she learned from Viserys:  "The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails.  Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved.  The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark.  Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes.  The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword."

Very few of these statements are really contradicted in AGOT.  Rhaella and Viserys did flee to Dragonstone as Robert's armies advanced.  Rhaegar fought Robert on the Trident, and died.  King's Landing was sacked by the Lannisters, and Ned was there.  It is likely that Ned's army joined in some of the pillaging while Ned was in the throne room confronting Jaime, and, in any event, Ned himself soon admits that "there was no honor in that conquest."  Everything Ned tells us in AGOT is consistent with the story that baby Aegon was ripped from Elia's breast and murdered before her eyes (although I will concede that there are a number of clues in AGOT that the dead baby may not have been Aegon).  And the description of the polished skulls in the throne room and the fact that the Kingslayer killed Aerys using a golden sword (how did Viserys know that detail?) are all confirmed in AGOT and in later books.  

We are also told that Robert "loved" Lyanna.  So that gives us the picture of two men fighting over a woman they both loved.  Robert does say that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, but he also says that Rhaegar got Lyanna while he got the crown (and he wishes it was the other way around).  

As for Ned, all we know about him during Chapter 3 of AGOT is that he is a harsh guy who cheated on his wife and who keeps a hostage around, forcing the hostage (and his own eight year old son) to watch him execute people with a massive sword.  And when he thinks it may come to war, Ned is fully prepared to use his hostage -- he tells Cat to keep Theon close in case they need his father's ships.  So when Ned says that he and Robert rebelled to stop the murder of children, the reader can't help but think that by the end of the book, we may see Ned murder (execute) Theon.  

When it comes to the Kingslayer, we quickly learn that he is the son and heir to one of the the Usurper's Dogs -- Jaime Lannister -- and that he was a Kingsguard as well.  We also see that he is in an incestuous/treasonous relationship with his sister, the queen, who is accused of murdering Jon Arryn.  All of this lends a certain credibility to Dany's description of the Lannisters and the Starks as the Usurpers Dogs.  

Finally, you suggested that Viserys' statement that there were lords in Westeros secretly making Targaryen banners was a fantasy.  But we learn from Tyrion (albeit post-AGOT) that he and Jaime saw the Targaryen banners at Darry when Robert and Ned stayed there on their way to King's Landing.  So that was not a fantasy at all.  Even Robert believes this is true:  "There are still those in the Seven Kingdoms who call me Usurper.  Do you forget how many houses fought for Targaryen in the war?  They bide their time for now, but give them half a chance, they will murder me in my bed ..."

So I disagree with your reading of AGOT.  We are presented first with the notion that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a love story, and then with supporting evidence. It is only gradually that we get the more subtle hints that what Dany was told was wrong.  

 

 

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Twinslayer, if it was as you claim, the majority of casual readers would believe that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. Unfortunately, most of them believe that he raped her as Robert says, because that first Dany quote, about a completely unknown guy mentioned in passing loving some woman who is not even named, just flies over their heads. Compared to a detailed account of a dialogue of a PoV character whose poor sister died so young because Rhaegar did to her something for which he would have deserved thousand deaths, and her betrothed still mourns her fourteen years later, it is totally nonessential, it is the other version that draws attention.

In case you have never seen a tourney field: it is quite long because the horses need some time to gain momentum and speed. The opponents meet in the middle, which is where the most important persons are seated for the best view, and one or both remaining in the saddle continue to the end of the field while slowing down. There they either take a new lance and joust again, or the winner rides from the end of the field to its middle, to present himself to the person(s) presiding over the tourney, and this is a ride for the show, not a gallop. This is what Rhaegar was doing when he "circled the field". Meanwhile, the knocked down opponent has enough time to get up, either on his own or assisted, or is carried away if unconscious. He is not left there lying in the mud.

 

 

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The phrase "Queen of Love and Beauty" is not GRRM's. He was following a real medieval tradition. It's almost certain that his direct inspiration was Walter Scott's novel Ivanhoe, which he is a professed fan of. In Ivanhoe, there's a tourney with a mystery knight in borrowed armour, and a choice of QoLaB that shocks the audience. 

In Ivanhoe, the term is pretty fluid, appearing as Queen of Beauty and Love, Queen of Beauty, and Queen of Love and Beauty (possibly also Queen of Love, I haven't checked). It's possible there was originally a subtle distinction in the medieval origins of the phrase, with QoL and QoB being stand-ins for personifications / goddesses of those properties, with particularly exceptional individuals being deemed to personify both (I believe that it was common in Elizabethan poetry to refer to Elizabeth by either term).

While @The Twinslayer's ideas are intriguing, I think much the most likely answer is GRRM was simply following Walter Scott's usage here.

An addendum for @Ygrain, Ivanhoe circled the field too:

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For the Disinherited Knight passed the gallery close to that of the Prince, in which the Lady Alicia was seated in the full pride of triumphant beauty, and, pacing forwards as slowly as he had hitherto rode swiftly around the lists, he seemed to exercise his right of examining the numerous fair faces which adorned that splendid circle.

Ivanhoe, ch.9

 

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I'm of the opinion that at least on Lyanna's part she did fall for Rhaegar initially.  It didn't hurt that she was also pushed by an undesirable betrothal to Robert Baratheon.  We know from Ned that Lyanna was aware of his womanizing nature and didn't care for it.  Her personality type is described as very spirited and willful as well as a bit of a romantic -- she was moved to tears by Rhaegar's song at the tourney feast.  I do think it was genuine feeling at the very least on her part and was most likely that she willingly ran away with him.  Ned doesn't have any negative opinions about or any sign of anger toward Rhaegar shown in any of his recollections.  It kinda implies he knew Lyanna willingly left even if everything went tragically wrong.  

By the roses that turned black in her hands, I feel like it implies Lyanna's heart was broken over how it turned out.  Here's some things we do know for an objective fact:  Rhaegar took his father's side in the war and defended his crown.  His father murdered Lyanna's father and brother.  By the way Brandon and Lyanna were said to ride together like centaurs sounds like they were extremely close.  His father also wanted Jon Arryn to turn over Ned and Robert to be executed as well.  He wasn't simply fighting Robert, he would also be fighting Lyanna's kin and people for someone that murdered her loved ones.  Ned could have been killed in the war as well as her friend HR.  No matter how much she may have initially loved Rhaegar, I can't help but think she might have changed her mind after Rhaegar sided against her family.  Rhaegar could have hidden her away to protect her from his father, but it does seem like with the whole prophesy obsession it was more self-serving than that.  Add to the fact that even by the time Ned got to the ToJ, the kingsguard were there to keep even her own brother away by force.  There's not even a hint that a peaceful meeting for Ned and Lyanna to at least see or speak to each other was even considered, even as she lay dying.  Is isolating her from her remaining family love on Rhaegar's part?  A major question is how Lyanna felt about everything and Rhaegar in hindsight.  The willful, romantic side of her probably thought even a scandal and a political stink would probably smooth over eventually and everything would be okay.  Lyanna honestly sounds more like Sansa's naive optimism on a deeper level than Arya.  She probably never considered things would go as horrible for her family as they did.  Other highborn women have been mistresses (though he might have married her) of Targaryen princes and kings, which historically may ruffle feathers but usually doesn't result in a violent bloodbath.      

As far the OP goes, I think the idea does have some merit.  It's not 100% definitive.  It could be simply shortening the phrase just for neatness in the surrounding sentence.  George is 99% of the time very specific and deliberate of how he phrases things.  This story arc of Rhaegar and Lyanna is so meaningful to many current characters, I could see George being very deliberate in the terms he uses depending on who is speaking and what they know.  If I take the example of LF using the phrase for Cat in isolation, leaving out the "love" part is very consistent with everything else and likely a deliberate choice -- not simply to make it short and neat.  I would even add leaving out the "love" part was more reflective of LF's true feelings than of Cat's.  Deeply resenting someone for over 15 years, making her meet him in a whorehouse, manipulating her sister, and destroying her family for not reciprocating his childhood crush is NOT LOVE.  So if the OP is correct and Ned's wording is a very deliberate choice to say either Lyanna fell out of love in the end and was heartbroken at the losses or that Rhaegar was maybe a bit like Robert -- he saw the beauty and mistook attraction for love without seeing the person Lyanna really was.  I could see that "steel" in Lyanna becoming defiant of Rhaegar after if was clear he would be fighting against her family.  But she'd already be pregnant, closely guarded, and far away by then, so it's just too late to do anything.                                       

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17 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

So I disagree with your reading of AGOT.  We are presented first with the notion that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a love story, and then with supporting evidence. It is only gradually that we get the more subtle hints that what Dany was told was wrong.  

Whoa! Well done! I'd not thought of it from this perspective before or seen the evidence put together like this. 

Granted, it fits with my own theories re: Rhaegar's being in cahoots with Tywin for Lyanna's disappearance. So my perspective is biased.

But very well done!

4 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

 Her personality type is described as very spirited and willful as well as a bit of a romantic -- she was moved to tears by Rhaegar's song at the tourney feast.  I do think it was genuine feeling at the very least on her part and was most likely that she willingly ran away with him.  Ned doesn't have any negative opinions about or any sign of anger toward Rhaegar shown in any of his recollections.  It kinda implies he knew Lyanna willingly left even if everything went tragically wrong.  

By the roses that turned black in her hands, I feel like it implies Lyanna's heart was broken over how it turned out.

Maybe--though sniffling at a sad song seems to be what Rhaegar's music did--and we have even Arya getting weepy over a song when it's clear her tears have nothing to do with the singer.

As for the roses turning black--I think there's a very strong possibility that's more about the Others than disappointed love.

Ned thinks of that image in his first Game POV. Then, in his dream, he sees those petals "blue as the eyes of death." The one and only time that phrase is ever used in the novels or novellas--far as I can find. We sees the blue eyes of the Others described in the Prologue as inhuman and burning. Jon compares the wight's eyes to stars. But ONLY Lyanna's petals in the moment that Ned starts fighting (Arthur) are "blue as the eyes of death."

Then, in Jon's fight with the wight:

Jon could feel his breakfast churning in his belly, but he pressed his lips together and made himself look at the second body. Othor had been a big ugly man, and he made a big ugly corpse. No axe was in evidence. Jon remembered Othor; he had been the one bellowing the bawdy song as the rangers rode out. His singing days were done. His flesh was blanched white as milk, everywhere but his hands. His hands were black like Jafer's. Blossoms of hard cracked blood decorated the mortal wounds that covered him like a rash, breast and groin and throat. Yet his eyes were still open. They stared up at the sky, blue as sapphires. Game, Jon VII

The hands are notable black. And the hands are decorated with "blossoms" of blood--so many other words he could have used--but Martin uses a flower based one. And the eyes of the dead are vividly blue ("blue as the eyes of death"). All seen by the kid who is very, very likely to be Lyanna's son.

In other words, the petals seem narratively tied to the return of the Others and the wights. As though something about Lyanna's death (and the fight with the KG/Arthur) lead to the Others' return.

It may also have something to do with love--no way that's off of the table. But the narrative tie between those rose petals and the Others seems pretty clear in Game

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18 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

Here is the first information we get about Rhaegar and Lyanna, in Chapter 3 of AGOT, which is Dany remembering things she learned from Viserys:  "The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails.  Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved.  The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark.  Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes.  The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword."

If you're talking first impressions here - then this one isn't of Rhaegar and Lyanna. It's of Rhaegar and the, not yet named, "woman he loved" (and when was first hinted that "the woman he loved" was Lyanna?). Here's the actual first impression of Rhaegar and Lyanna (where both are explicitly named) is this:

“Lyanna was … fond of flowers.”

The king touched her cheek, his fingers brushing across the rough stone as gently as if it were living flesh.

“I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her.”

“You did,” Ned reminded him.

“Only once,” Robert said bitterly.

Although "which was first" is, methinks, a silly thing to argue about, when both are in the initial chapters of a loooong series, maybe twenty pages apart.

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5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Maybe--though sniffling at a sad song seems to be what Rhaegar's music did--and we have even Arya getting weepy over a song when it's clear her tears have nothing to do with the singer.

As for the roses turning black--I think there's a very strong possibility that's more about the Others than disappointed love.

 

Of course, you are right.  The flowers are definitely tied to the Others.  There are whole other layers of meaning there, but she is clutching them as she is dying.  That's some deep emotional attachment for someone bleeding out to want to hold on to them, so that must be in regards to her past experience.  She wouldn't be holding them simply for artistic license for the purpose of foreshadowing.  Then we get into Ned's fevered dream where the petals definitely show their symbolic meaning in regards to Jon's arc in the future.

I don't know if the attraction happened at the song, but the point was that Lyanna is a sensitive person and has a bit of a romantic streak.  Maybe Arya does too, even though she's still a little girl and just on that verge of being interested in sex and love.  Not that she'd admit it cause that's silly Sansa stuff.  Lyanna was a teenager and probably more inclined to romantic attraction and Rhaegar does seem to be a dashing figure.  If she was the KotLT and Rhaegar found her, it's possible there was mutual attraction going on and maybe he showed appreciation for her spirited nature -- something Robert probably didn't do.  We still need more information to fill in the gaps of exactly what went down and we have many biased recollections to piece things together.  We still don't know if Lyanna found out about this prophecy stuff Rhaegar was so interested it.  How would she feel about that?  I can't see how she would be feeling too good about being with Rhaegar, or at least torn, when he was fighting on the side of the man that murdered her father and brother.  Almost murdered Ned too.                    

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On January 18, 2017 at 8:51 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Of course, you are right.  The flowers are definitely tied to the Others.  There are whole other layers of meaning there, but she is clutching them as she is dying.  That's some deep emotional attachment for someone bleeding out to want to hold on to them, so that must be in regards to her past experience.  She wouldn't be holding them simply for artistic license for the purpose of foreshadowing.  Then we get into Ned's fevered dream where the petals definitely show their symbolic meaning in regards to Jon's arc in the future.

Agreed. Though we may have a hint in Game

Ned says "Lyanna was fond of flowers." Then, Martin shows us Arya's fondness for flowers in Sansa's first POV. Arya LOVES flowers--finding them, finding new ones. exploring and searching, and then bringing back bouquets to those she loves--Ned. Even when Arya gets welts from the purple flowers that are poison kisses (not exactly the blue roses with thorns and Ned's blood--but it's interesting), Arya doesn't care. Still loves the flowers.

So, Lyanna could be sentimental about the giver of her flowers--like Sansa is. Or she could be like Arya--loving the flowers she always loved, no matter who gave them to her. Even if Rhaegar's intent was horrible--Arya would likely blame Rhaegar, not the flowers. Seems like a good chance Lyanna might be the same--especially since Martin takes the time to tell us that Lyanna loved flowers, that Arya loves flowers, and that Arya and Lyanna are similar in the same novel.

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I don't know if the attraction happened at the song, but the point was that Lyanna is a sensitive person and has a bit of a romantic streak.  Maybe Arya does too, even though she's still a little girl and just on that verge of being interested in sex and love.  Not that she'd admit it cause that's silly Sansa stuff.  Lyanna was a teenager and probably more inclined to romantic attraction and Rhaegar does seem to be a dashing figure.

Maybe--but just as Martin shows us Arya's interaction with flowers in Game (where we learn Lyanna loved flowers), he also shows us Arya's take on songs in Storm, where we hear about Lyanna's sniffles. 

Prior to Storm, there's almost no references to songs and singing in Arya's POVs. In Storm? All over the place--in part because she's with the Brotherhood and their singer. She tells them singing is stupid. That it makes it easy to hear them coming. Thinks some of the songs are stupid and just for seducing girls (which is, of course, true).

Then--she hears Tom sing a sad song for the Ghost of High Heart:

"The wench is dead," the woman hissed. "Only worms may kiss her now." And then to Tom Sevenstrings she said, "I'll have my song or I'll have you gone."
So the singer played for her, so soft and sad that Arya only heard snatches of the words, though the tune was half-familiar. Sansa would know it, I bet. Her sister had known all the songs, and she could even play a little, and sing so sweetly. All I could ever do was shout the words. Storm, Arya IV.
It's not exactly the same wording as Meera's: "Then the dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle." But it's close. And though Arya doesn't admit to sniffling at Tom's song, she's getting very sad and sentimental and missing her sister. 
The point: it may all mean nothing. But it is very interesting that in the same novel where we hear about Lyanna's reaction to a sad song, we have Arya's POVs full of songs--and her disdain for most of them. And her reaction to a sad song. And it has nothing to do with her attraction to the singer--her sadness is only about her family she misses.
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If she was the KotLT and Rhaegar found her, it's possible there was mutual attraction going on and maybe he showed appreciation for her spirited nature -- something Robert probably didn't do.

Maybe--though given that Robert really wanted Cersei to go hunting with him, seems like he would have asked Lyanna, too. Wanted her to go riding and join him in all the active stuff he does. Robert might have appreciated it somewhat.

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We still need more information to fill in the gaps of exactly what went down and we have many biased recollections to piece things together.  We still don't know if Lyanna found out about this prophecy stuff Rhaegar was so interested it.  How would she feel about that?  I can't see how she would be feeling too good about being with Rhaegar, or at least torn, when he was fighting on the side of the man that murdered her father and brother.  Almost murdered Ned too.                    

Agreed--it's one of the reasons why I doubt this scenario. Thus, given the OP, the idea that Rhaegar was a plotter, or took Lyanna out of unhealthy obsession--as does Baelish with Sansa--that might work.

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