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The Fresh PtwP

Worst of the worst

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Who has the worst actions we've seen in ASoIaF?

I'm going to count motive because I chalk Dany's Order (you know the one.) up to idiotic carelessness.

So in my eyes it's Cersei killing all Robert's bastards, because it was specifically targeting children.

Or Tywin's sack of KL because under anybody else it would've been much less brutal.

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@The Fresh PtwP Dany's order - chaining & imprisoning (for want of a better word) Viserion & Rhaegel?

South of the Wall & not dealing with the metaphysical, it's always Tywin for me - Westeros' greatest ever war criminal & perpetrator of crimes against humanity. All for his "glorious legacy" to, part-wise, be his shit on the crapper with a crossbow bolt right above his dick.

Cersei: I suppose like father like daughter though, aye?

@Bran's Legs Yeah, he's right up there, if not top. And he was ultimately just doing it to maintain his "system" *shudders*.

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This will be my first post so Hello everyone :D!!

Honestly Euron, seeing as specifics might be spoilers I won't mention but everything with Euron gives me the creeps...

I agree with the ones previously stated so I will mention some others!

- Aerys, he was the mad king after all. His plan to (probably) burn all of kings landing to the ground and even raping his wife. Disgusting.

- Littlefinger, him starting and manipulating the downfall of the starks, murdering Lysa, poisoning the king (which tbh was for the better)

- Khal Drogo, slaving, raping and murder..

- Walder Frey, the red wedding need I say more?

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I'd have to go with Tywin also just for the scale of the misery he causes. He doesn't dirty his own hands but the men like Gregor, Lorch, the Mummers etc who flourish under his orders speak volumes. 

The series is full of cruel men who would probably make the same decisions in his position and don't seem to balk at any level of depravity. I'm thinking people like Maegor, Aerion, Aerys, Qyburn, Shagwell, Craster, various Dothraki, various slavers, Cersei... the list goes on. But it's Tywin's position and intelligence that simply give him the potential to cause such widespread devastation and affect so many lives.

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if you are counting motives, I would say that Balon Grayjoy has to be up there as most of his motives seem to me to be thoroughly selfish. Even Craster is being somewhat pragmatic in the face of a super natural evil which he has no way to comprehend.

by the end of this series, depending on how things pan out. rhaegar may actually be towards the top of this list

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-Euron raping/seducing Victarion's salt wife and torturing Aeron.

-Ramsay killing Domeric, if Roose told the truth.

 

I'm not sure which one is worse, but Euron is probably worse.

 

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IMO the worst of the worst are the slavers in SB. I find it funny how a lot of people on this board are more upset with Dany for trying to eradicate slavery than the slavers themselves. These monsters kidnapped boys and girls and train them in the way of the 7 sighs for use in sex houses. They take any of the boys who are promising physical specimens and cut off their genitalia and train them to be unthinking, killing machines. Dany will always be my favorite character: Kill the masters, free the slaves indeed.

 

On a side note, I live in the southern part of the US, where people have the same attitude. They claim that the civil war was unnecessary and that slavery would have eventually died out on its on.  They blame Lincoln more for the civil war than the slavers. My rebuttal has always been....tell that to those suffering under slavery who are not afforded the luxury of waiting for an evil institution to die out. I've never understood this logic at all.

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Uff, there are lots, but certainly Tywin's war tops everything even if he never stains his own hands. The monsters are on the loose because of him, Gregor, Amory, Vargo, even Ramsay.

Littlefinger forcing Jeyne into prostitution and then selling her to Ramsay.

Varys and his tongue cutting of little children

Euron with Falia

etc, etc, etc

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29 minutes ago, The Pimp that was Promised said:

IMO the worst of the worst are the slavers in SB. I find it funny how a lot of people on this board are more upset with Dany for trying to eradicate slavery than the slavers themselves. These monsters kidnapped boys and girls and train them in the way of the 7 sighs for use in sex houses. They take any of the boys who are promising physical specimens and cut off their genitalia and train them to be unthinking, killing machines. Dany will always be my favorite character: Kill the masters, free the slaves indeed.

 

On a side note, I live in the southern part of the US, where people have the same attitude. They claim that the civil war was unnecessary and that slavery would have eventually died out on its on.  They blame Lincoln more for the civil war than the slavers. My rebuttal has always been....tell that to those suffering under slavery who are not afforded the luxury of waiting for an evil institution to die out. I've never understood this logic at all.

In SB the slaves were considered property, so what she did was pretty much theft.

What right Dany had to free the slaves? At least Lincoln was the elect president. In the long term what she did will bring nothing good

 

Anyway, as Tyrion pointed, most masters wede not worse than the westerosi lords

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19 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

In SB the slaves were considered property, so what she did was pretty much theft.

What right Dany had to free the slaves? At least Lincoln was the elect president. In the long term what she did will bring nothing good

 

Anyway, as Tyrion pointed, most masters wede not worse than the westerosi lords

This is another of the moral traps planted by GRRM to confuse our poor souls.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

In SB the slaves were considered property, so what she did was pretty much theft.

What right Dany had to free the slaves? At least Lincoln was the elect president. In the long term what she did will bring nothing good

 

Anyway, as Tyrion pointed, most masters wede not worse than the westerosi lords

The slavers were the thieves. What did the slaves of SB do to deserve their enslavement, when they themselves were kidnapped? Dany had every right to free them. Using your logic, the Bravoosi were wrong to rebel and flee their Valyrian overlords because they were someone's property.

And what good did Dany do? I don't know about you, but I would rather die free than to live in bondage. The slavers do not hold the moral high ground. Lol. 

The masters were way worse than the average Westori lord....even the Ironborn didn't allow chattel slavery. The only way evil institutions endure is for people to accept it....it took a war to end  chattel slavery in the US, it took a war to end the Nazis, and it took a war to free the people of SB from the yoke of the slavers. That war is still going on, and while Dany isn't perfect....she is better than the masters, who kidnap children and sell them to the highest bidder to live their lives in perpetual slavery. What makes chattel slavery so bad is that the children of slaves are also considered property, and then their children, and so on. That is horrible.

The masters of SB all deserve to die horrible deaths. 

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38 minutes ago, The Pimp that was Promised said:

The slavers were the thieves. What did the slaves of SB do to deserve their enslavement, when they themselves were kidnapped? Dany had every right to free them. Using your logic, the Bravoosi were wrong to rebel and flee their Valyrian overlords because they were someone's property.

And what good did Dany do? I don't know about you, but I would rather die free than to live in bondage. The slavers do not hold the moral high ground. Lol. 

The masters were way worse than the average Westori lord....even the Ironborn didn't allow chattel slavery. The only way evil institutions endure is for people to accept it....it took a war to end  chattel slavery in the US, it took a war to end the Nazis, and it took a war to free the people of SB from the yoke of the slavers. That war is still going on, and while Dany isn't perfect....she is better than the masters, who kidnap children and sell them to the highest bidder to live their lives in perpetual slavery. What makes chattel slavery so bad is that the children of slaves are also considered property, and then their children, and so on. That is horrible.

The masters of SB all deserve to die horrible deaths. 

The masters can claim right of conquest. Evil or good is up to debate, as the masters surely don't see themselves as evil.

The Idea that the masters must die is what will bring only chaos. They're the educated and wealthy people on SB, they're the ones that know how to rule.

The most likely consequence of freeing the slavers is a return to slavery after Dany leave, but with the old masters and their families as slaves.

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12 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

The masters can claim right of conquest. Evil or good is up to debate, as the masters surely don't see themselves as evil.

The Idea that the masters must die is what will bring only chaos. They're the educated and wealthy people on SB, they're the ones that know how to rule.

The most likely consequence of freeing the slavers is a return to slavery after Dany leave, but with the old masters and their families as slaves.

No evil person sees themselves as evil.....but that doesn't make them less evil. I'm sure that ISIS sees themselves as the good guys.

And right of conquest doesn't give a person the right to doom another person's bloodline to perpetual slavery. The people of Naath are a peaceful folk who lived on their island with no concept of war. They were kidnapped and sold to the highest bidder.....Dany is the only person who ever stood up for the likes of them. Everyone else sees them as property, but they're not property. They are people who were kidnapped and sold.  

Change is a difficult process, I admit. But that doesn't mean that the status quo should be maintained indefinitely. In the southern  US, the transition from a slave based economy to a modern economy was difficult. Sharecroppers replaced slaves and hooded terrorist terrorized the former slaves for generations. The effects of chattel slavery is still felt today......but that doesn't mean that the cause to end slavery wasn't worth it. Imagine how far behind we would be if slavery was allowed to simply die out on its own. In SB, Dany took the first step by freeing the slaves and killing the masters. The next step is to replace it with something more viable.

An economy based on slavery is doomed to fail. The feudalism of the 7K isn't that much different, but at last in the 7K, a person can rise above his station to provide a better life for his or her kids. Look at Davos or Dunk as an example. In chattel slavery, there is no option to rise and therefore no hope for the slaves. SB lags far behind the free city of Braavos and is considered something of a backwater part of the world. Slaves are SB's only commodity at this point, so the slavers fight hard to maintain the system. That doesn't make the system right though. Maybe Dany  will be the engine to get them to see the futility of basing their economy on such a barbaric practice. The slavers will never do this on their own, for they will lose their status. 

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57 minutes ago, The Pimp that was Promised said:

 Text

Well, then we can assume that evil is just a point of view. Slaves see the masters as evil, while masters see Dany and company as evil... But nobody is objectively evil.

 

Anyway, why change a system that is working well?

Why is a economy based on slavery doomed to fail? In our world the romans endured centuries, only falling when the germanic tribes invaded.

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1 hour ago, The Hoare said:

Well, then we can assume that evil is just a point of view. Slaves see the masters as evil, while masters see Dany and company as evil... But nobody is objectively evil.

Wrong. There are examples in asoiaf without going to the real world.

Quote

 

Anyway, why change a system that is working well?

Because it is based on the exploitation of other human beings.

 

4 hours ago, The Hoare said:

What right Dany had to free the slaves?

The right to stop the suffering on thousands of people and she did it at high risk for herself.

Quote

At least Lincoln was the elect president.

This is another confusion. Being elected doesn't automatically put you in higher moral grounds. The triarchs in Volantis are elected and have given peace and prosperity for 300 years, yet most people in Volantis are slaves. 

Quote

In the long term what she did will bring nothing good

Even if it doesn't, it was still worthwhile.

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49 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

Well, then we can assume that evil is just a point of view. Slaves see the masters as evil, while masters see Dany and company as evil... But nobody is objectively evil.

Actually, any person who enslaves others is objectively evil. It's baffling to me that anyone could argue otherwise.

 

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1 hour ago, The Hoare said:

Well, then we can assume that evil is just a point of view. Slaves see the masters as evil, while masters see Dany and company as evil... But nobody is objectively evil.

Slavery is where humanity took a worst turn in its entire history. Don't try to trivialize it by saying it's just a point of view.

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