Worst of the worst

[Ser Snowflake]

1 hour ago, The Hoare said:

Well, then we can assume that evil is just a point of view. Slaves see the masters as evil, while masters see Dany and company as evil... But nobody is objectively evil.

 

Anyway, why change a system that is working well?

Why is a economy based on slavery doomed to fail? In our world the romans endured centuries, only falling when the germanic tribes invaded.

Slavers are as objectively evil as they come. The making of the unsullied is the most despicable thing in the series IMO because it is institutionalized. Ramsay is evil....but he's just one person. The masters of Ataspor do their despicable acts on a grander scale.

And the only people that the system of slavery is working well for is the slavers. What about the slaves? How do you think it's working out for them? 

When I first found this message board, the biggest thing that baffled me is how sympathetic people are toward the slavers of SB. I have my problems with Dany, but she is way more sympathetic than someone like Kraznys, who reminds me of a comic book villain. I applauded when Drogon articulated to him the meaning of House Targaryen's words: Fire and Blood.

[rotting sea cow]

4 hours ago, The Pimp that was Promised said:

IMO the worst of the worst are the slavers in SB. I find it funny how a lot of people on this board are more upset with Dany for trying to eradicate slavery than the slavers themselves.

Revolutionaries are not in fashion nowadays, unfortunately.

[The Fresh PtwP]

26 minutes ago, The Pimp that was Promised said:

Slavers are as objectively evil as they come. The making of the unsullied is the most despicable thing in the series IMO because it is institutionalized. Ramsay is evil....but he's just one person. The masters of Ataspor do their despicable acts on a grander scale.

And the only people that the system of slavery is working well for is the slavers. What about the slaves? How do you think it's working out for them? 

When I first found this message board, the biggest thing that baffled me is how sympathetic people are toward the slavers of SB. I have my problems with Dany, but she is way more sympathetic than someone like Kraznys, who reminds me of a comic book villain. I applauded when Drogon articulated to him the meaning of House Targaryen's words: Fire and Blood.

That's why I give Dany a pass at Astapor. It needed to happen the slavers are terrible. She should've raised the killing age limit but yeah completely agree.

I'm glad you mentioned Kraznys as a comic book villian because i believe that's where some of the desensitization comes from. They are so ridiculously evil that it makes them seem, less evil. They're like evil caricatures of evil people but so singularily cruel that they don't make us think of real people.

[Ser Snowflake]

9 minutes ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

That's why I give Dany a pass at Astapor. It needed to happen the slavers are terrible. She should've raised the killing age limit but yeah completely agree.

I'm glad you mentioned Kraznys as a comic book villian because i believe that's where some of the desensitization comes from. They are so ridiculously evil that it makes them seem, less evil. They're like evil caricatures of evil people but so singularily cruel that they don't make us think of real people.

The only sympathetic character from SB is the boy who lost his parents during the sack of Mereen.

Not only are the people of SB evil....they're stupid as well. I still have no idea why the masters of Mereen nailed up the kids with their guts exposed to mark the mileposts from Yunkai to Mereen. What was the purpose? Cruelty for the sake of being cruel? Was this supposed to frighten Dany? It only served to harden her resolve and to quote the beggar king, "wake the dragon"

I'd rather live anywhere in the 7K than in SB. Kraznys had the nerve to call the people of Westeros savages.

[theblackdragonI]

Not sure if this counts because its before AGOT, but Aerys laughing while Rickard burns and Brandon strangles himself to death is pretty brutal on a more personal level, rather than killing hundreds or thousands like Tywin and Dany.

[khal drogon]

5 hours ago, theblackdragonI said:

Not sure if this counts because its before AGOT, but Aerys laughing while Rickard burns and Brandon strangles himself to death is pretty brutal on a more personal level, rather than killing hundreds or thousands like Tywin and Dany.

Guy was paranoid. He believed that those Starks threatened his life and his families lives. Yes he was quite sadist about it. But what Tywin did with Elia and her children trumps everything. It is done out of malice and it was to make a point. Tywin often engages in brutalities to just make a point which makes him worse than Aerys. 

[rotting sea cow]

11 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

I'm glad you mentioned Kraznys as a comic book villian because i believe that's where some of the desensitization comes from. They are so ridiculously evil that it makes them seem, less evil. They're like evil caricatures of evil people but so singularily cruel that they don't make us think of real people.

Indeed, and this is important, because is one of the tricks that GRRM uses to confuse the readers. It the same with Victarion. He is so stupid that we laugh at him and easily forget his brutal actions. With Tywin he does the opposite, making him so respectable that it is easy to feel admiration and disconnect his character from the brutal war he led in the Riverlands.  

[Vaedys Targaryen]

I personally despise Drogo, though he is not my worst.

He was a warlord with a large army of thieves, rapists and murderers. He himself was all of these things and Dany loving him does not redeem him in my my eyes.

17 hours ago, The Pimp that was Promised said:

And what good did Dany do? I don't know about you, but I would rather die free than to live in bondage. The slavers do not hold the moral high ground. Lol. 

Funnily enough, Tyrion has two things to say to this:

Quote

There was never a slave who did not choose to be a slave. Their choice may have been between bondage and death, but the choice is always there.

Quote

Yezzan's slaves ate better than many peasants back in the Seven Kingdoms and were less likely to starve come winter. Slaves were chattel, aye. They could be bought and sold, whipped or branded, used for carnal pleasure of their owners, bred to make more slaves. In that sense they were no more than dogs or horses. But most lords treated their dogs and horses well enough. Proud men might shout that they would sooner die than live as slaves, but pride was cheap. When the steel struck the flint, such men were as rare as dragon's teeth; elsewise the world would not be so full of slaves.

Things to make a lot of people think.

[SeanF]

48 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I personally despise Drogo, though he is not my worst.

He was a warlord with a large army of thieves, rapists and murderers. He himself was all of these things and Dany loving him does not redeem him in my my eyes.

Funnily enough, Tyrion has two things to say to this:

Things to make a lot of people think.

No doubt some slaves are treated decently in Slavers Bay. 

But, we've encountered others who are treated horribly.  2/3 of the trainee Unsullied die;  children are sold into brothels;  people are forced to fight each other or wild animals for the amusement of the citizens.  None of these things are legal in Westeros.

Nor is slavery just a local custom.  Free people are enslaved by Dothraki and corsairs and then sold on to the Masters.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Euron, if we are including tWoW. I will not include spoilers, but he is pretty much the epitamy of evil. My number two is Tywin. For all the reasons others have mentioned above, but especially for the way he tries to manipulate and control his family. There is something really sick about treating your family as pawns to accomplish your own goals. Also, just everything else he did. On a side note, I know Ramsay is awful too, but since he is obviously like an out of control lunatic, I find his less planned out evil to be less awful then Euron and Tywin's careful planned out version. Honorable mention for a character not many mention...hmm....Rickard Karstark. Murdering two childrenfor revenge is cowardly, pathetic, and just sick.

[Nocturne]

People who are defending the slavers have to be trolling or downright racist. There is simply no valid excuse to make someone your slave, it doesn't even matter if you threat the slave "good" as in you don't beat or torture him, you just put him to work to do what you are too lazy to do.

To be more on topic, apart from the horrible people mentioned, i think Varys is right up there with the worst of them. He uses children as slaves to do his bidding, not to mention has them mutilated in the process as well. You can argue that Illyrio supplies them without their tongues, but we don't see Varys complaining about it now don't we?

 

[Xray the Enforcer]

[mod] Keep it classy, people. Any more posts justifying slavery either in the books or in RL will be deleted. End of argument. Thank you. [/mod]

[khal drogon]

5 hours ago, Nocturne said:

To be more on topic, apart from the horrible people mentioned, i think Varys is right up there with the worst of them. He uses children as slaves to do his bidding, not to mention has them mutilated in the process as well. You can argue that Illyrio supplies them without their tongues, but we don't see Varys complaining about it now don't we?

 

Has anyone thought about what he does to his little birds when they grow up? Sell them into slavery? Kill them? Scary to think about it.

[theblackdragonI]

17 hours ago, khal drogon said:

Guy was paranoid. He believed that those Starks threatened his life and his families lives. Yes he was quite sadist about it. But what Tywin did with Elia and her children trumps everything. It is done out of malice and it was to make a point. Tywin often engages in brutalities to just make a point which makes him worse than Aerys. 

Still making it as cruel as possible. In a public setting choosing fire as his champion, Brandon's death as well as executing all his companions its barbaric. He wasn't justified in killing them like that, maybe only Brandon at a push in a normal fashion not the way he went out. 

While I'd agree that Tywin was more evil than Aerys, I think the killing of the Starks is more barbaric than the killing of Elia and the children. As I doubt Tywin told Clegane and Lorch to carry it out in the way they did. Sure he didn't care either way as long as it got done, but I doubt he gave orders to rape her and smash their heads against the wall. It was a practical decision (albeit a horrible one). Aerys was more personally crueland horrifying. 

[Wrl6199]

17 hours ago, khal drogon said:

Guy was paranoid. He believed that those Starks threatened his life and his families lives. Yes he was quite sadist about it. But what Tywin did with Elia and her children trumps everything. It is done out of malice and it was to make a point. Tywin often engages in brutalities to just make a point which makes him worse than Aerys. 

Yeah he believed that they were a treat to his life because one of them threatened to kill Rhaegar. Still though aeries obviously overreacted but Brandon shouldn't have came to the red keep like that. 

[Queen Historia I Reiss]

I would say the worst of the worst are all the Targaryens that practiced dragonriding or going to practice it, Daenerys included. Many Targaryens are cruel psychopaths to begin with, again Daenerys included, but turning animals, animals that are intelligent enough to recognize humans and understand them, into weapons of mass destruction to burn as many human beings as possible alive is truly corrupted. What does someone like Joffrey did? He acted like a dick, was cruel towards a girl and killed a Lord and a couple of traitors. Ramsay. Raping many girls, torturing a Kinslayer, raiding, skinning people. That's really, really evil. But compared to the practice of enslaving animals and bringing weapons of mass destruction with the potencial to burn alive houndreds or even thousands of people in a short periode of time to Westeros is in my eyes truly wicked. 

[HoodedCrow]

Systematic dehumanizations of the unsullied.

[Drogonthedread]

5 hours ago, Queen Historia I Reiss said:

I would say the worst of the worst are all the Targaryens that practiced dragonriding or going to practice it, Daenerys included. Many Targaryens are cruel psychopaths to begin with, again Daenerys included, but turning animals, animals that are intelligent enough to recognize humans and understand them, into weapons of mass destruction to burn as many human beings as possible alive is truly corrupted. What does someone like Joffrey did? He acted like a dick, was cruel towards a girl and killed a Lord and a couple of traitors. Ramsay. Raping many girls, torturing a Kinslayer, raiding, skinning people. That's really, really evil. But compared to the practice of enslaving animals and bringing weapons of mass destruction with the potencial to burn alive houndreds or even thousands of people in a short periode of time to Westeros is in my eyes truly wicked. 

 

5 hours ago, Queen Historia I Reiss said:

I would say the worst of the worst are all the Targaryens that practiced dragonriding or going to practice it, Daenerys included. Many Targaryens are cruel psychopaths to begin with, again Daenerys included, but turning animals, animals that are intelligent enough to recognize humans and understand them, into weapons of mass destruction to burn as many human beings as possible alive is truly corrupted. What does someone like Joffrey did? He acted like a dick, was cruel towards a girl and killed a Lord and a couple of traitors. Ramsay. Raping many girls, torturing a Kinslayer, raiding, skinning people. That's really, really evil. But compared to the practice of enslaving animals and bringing weapons of mass destruction with the potencial to burn alive houndreds or even thousands of people in a short periode of time to Westeros is in my eyes truly wicked. 

I wonder what you think about all those wars that was fought in the north..

If you are so against the bonding with dragon which is a mutual thing...so I can only imagine what you think about all those wargs who take control without the consent or knowledge

 

[Drogonthedread]

Wow at some of the posts in this thread ...I guess the times have not changed. 

You want to know what is worst of worst people making ridiculous claims all because they don't like a major female character ..

First OP goes to mock the action of dany ...its as if in this series no one has committed or acted based on vengeance and anger .. This is the series where people kills just for insubordination and mocking ..imagine how one will be if someone nails little girls to a post just to mock you... The response fr dany may be wrong but certainly not the worst nor that hard to understand.. Its very human reaction

 

Then comes the series of ridiculous posts ..I mean this fandom is the one where a character is blamed even for a plague that is not in her control or her doing ...people go in to defend slavers. ..

One would assume these people are so against people suffering or violence ...but when they go on to defend slavers it all goes out of the window ..

What right does dany have to free slaves - the same right slavers had when they started to capture and enslave people ..

Why stop the system which is working fine and well - if by system where thousands keeps dying each day ...yes its a nice system ..

Or you guys onlycare about people getting killed only dany involves and forget about it when it happens with the slavers ..

 

And for the love of god I wish people stop making excuses using tyrion..to those people I would ask where is tyrion now ..why he is not with his good master while he is dying away ..if slavery is good why did he run off..

He is the character who after even born in richest family  continued to whine about how his life sucks and he must be last person to comment on slavery or a common man life ..if the slavery was so good he would have been nice meal to a lion. .I guess people would have been happy about it. .

If there is 10 slaves out of 100 have a nice life there is 90 slaves who don't and there is other 100s who dies not even making the list of 100

[Queen Historia I Reiss]

1 hour ago, Drogonthedread said:

 

I wonder what you think about all those wars that was fought in the north..

If you are so against the bonding with dragon which is a mutual thing...so I can only imagine what you think about all those wargs who take control without the consent or knowledge

 

Warging in general can be rather creepy if we consider that it means to influence the whole "idendity" of the animal you control...or be dominated by it. But I think you don't got my whole "Weapons of Mass Destruction" argument. Dragons are used as weapons of mass destruction, they can easily burn down hundreds or even thousands in a short period of time, they can destroy entire cities. And she's easily ready to use them. Let us not forget that she's morally not really better than those the fights. She's simply self-righteous.

 

Wow at some of the posts in this thread ...I guess the times have not changed. 

You want to know what is worst of worst people making ridiculous claims all because they don't like a major female character ..

First OP goes to mock the action of dany ...its as if in this series no one has committed or acted based on vengeance and anger .. This is the series where people kills just for insubordination and mocking ..imagine how one will be if someone nails little girls to a post just to mock you... The response fr dany may be wrong but certainly not the worst nor that hard to understand.. Its very human reaction

 

Then comes the series of ridiculous posts ..I mean this fandom is the one where a character is blamed even for a plague that is not in her control or her doing ...people go in to defend slavers. ..

One would assume these people are so against people suffering or violence ...but when they go on to defend slavers it all goes out of the window ..

What right does dany have to free slaves - the same right slavers had when they started to capture and enslave people ..

Why stop the system which is working fine and well - if by system where thousands keeps dying each day ...yes its a nice system ..

Or you guys onlycare about people getting killed only dany involves and forget about it when it happens with the slavers ..

 

And for the love of god I wish people stop making excuses using tyrion..to those people I would ask where is tyrion now ..why he is not with his good master while he is dying away ..if slavery is good why did he run off..

He is the character who after even born in richest family  continued to whine about how his life sucks and he must be last person to comment on slavery or a common man life ..if the slavery was so good he would have been nice meal to a lion. .I guess people would have been happy about it. .

If there is 10 slaves out of 100 have a nice life there is 90 slaves who don't and there is other 100s who dies not even making the list of 100

 

Considering the fact that I'm using Historia Reiss as my Avatar, I can easily say that my dislike for Daenerys is not because she's a female leader. It's because she's stupid, self-righteous and overhyped. The fact that I don't like Emilia Clark doesn't helps her either. 

And the mistake you make is, that you assume that feudalism is any better. Westeros is not really better than slavers bay. Like, remember the War of the Five Kings when people had to starve to death because Cersei had to bang her brother, Robb wanted personal vengeance, Renly wanted to piss off his brother, nobody liked Stannis and Joffrey wanted some lands that would have made more problems than their worth a couple of years later with the Others invasion. Or how everybody was free to plunder, murder and rape as long as they wore the colors of some mighty lord. Or how Lords like Tywin let his men gangrape women? In Slave Societies, human beings are at least worth as much as property one had bought with his money. If some Slaver destroys the Slave of another slaver, they have probablyat least to pay for that. In Westeros, no Lord gives a shit about what their knights and soldiers do to others. So, let us stop like the practice of slavery is that much more evil than feudalism. 

 

The whole conquer Slave cities and abolish slavery thing wouldn't be that evil, if she would at least replace the system with something, but all she did so far was creating one big mess after another. She has no control over her feelings and only does whatever she likes to do. She may be charismatic, but she has no real competence. She destroys entire cultures. Look at Astapor. That's pretty much the same situation like in Ruanda, the fact that soem Butcher ruled shows what a mess Dani created. That could be easily the end for the Culture of Astapor.