Bakker XLVI: Make Eärwa Great Again

[Kalbear]

6 hours ago, Rhom said:

What about the archeology of the world?  Very clearly the north is a vast wasteland, and they do pass through ruins.  Even if we accept that the sagas and the Ses dreams are unreliable narrators, something wiped out a huge swath of human civilization. 

Along those lines, what about the various topos?  Cil Aujus was doomed by the Non-men being Non-men, but you still have other places such as the battlefield at Mengedda.  (Is that correct?  I don't have the book in front of me and there are just so many names...)  Clearly, an apocalyptic battle happened there.

Topoi aren't the first apocalypse though - and as we've seen, lots of things can create them. 

We've not seen the north as a vast wasteland. Point of fact, until fairly recently the North was able to support a pretty giant army through foraging. It's overrun with sranc, and there are definitely ruins of people - but there's nothing that we've seen so far that indicates that this was caused by Mog Pharau. So yeah, something wiped out a lot of people on Mengedda. Was it the No-God? Something destroyed a lot of human sites in the North. Was it the No-God?

We don't know that the heron spear fired (and in fact have a dream of it not actually doing anything). We don't even know if the No-God was destroyed, or even if it can be. We have mention of a prophecy based apparently on a huge mistake. 

Also, this:

Quote

the raving onslaught, the mothers casting their babes against stone

The fuck? Why are moms killing their actual, born kids? 

[Happy Ent]

4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

The fuck? Why are moms killing their actual, born kids? 

So as to save them from the Sranc. We hear of this behaviour several times.

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Happy Ent said:

So as to save them from the Sranc. We hear of this behaviour several times.

Ah, I didn't get that from that quote at all. Thanks.

[jurble]

RE: the idea that the First Apocalypse as witnessed by Seswatha didn't actually happen.  We know the Mandate argue that the Sagas don't reflect the real history, so there's discrepancies between the dreams and the Sagas, but otherwise unless the Sagas themselves are fabrications (as is Akka's dreams as Nau-Cayuti and Celmomas), something happened.

But, we don't really know what Seswatha was up to during the First Apocalypse outside the specific dreams given to Mandate schoolmen.  Assuming Akka's dreams are real - we have a few 'real' dreams - Cel informing Seswatha of Ishual, Seswatha's affair, Cel's death from his point of view, and Nau-Cayuti in Golgotterath. 

The most interesting of the broken Seswatha dreams, and the one most indicative of the falsehood of the standard dreams is burning of the library of Sauglish - Seswatha despawns and Akka is left as a floating viewpoint in mid-air watching Skafra.  I think this dream is the one most indicative of what the dreams really are - they're basically scripted video game cut scenes - not actual relived moments of Seswatha's life.  Sometimes, the scripting goes wonky and errors occur.  But their intent is to present the world in a given fashion. 

I don't believe we can discern anything meaningful from the errors however, when the dreams go off-script, they aren't revealing any truth because they aren't in anyway related to whatever happened in the reality. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

I think if anything we are learning more truths when Akka's dreams changed a la' TAE. Ishual, his relationship with Celmomas's wife and possible parentage of Nayu-Cayuti. Yet, the bit I quoted from Lastborn correlates to what we see and hear Akka talking about witnessing in his dreams before the changes. The burning of the library at Sauglish, Trysë and the ships, the Whirlwind and it controlling the Sranc en masse. To much of that aligns up for it to be false. I think what Akka will find out is that when Kellhus "talked" to Seswatha, he established a link. And, Kellhus has altered the dreams in a way to lead him and Mimara to where he needs them. Golgotterath. And, I am quite sure it's because of the JE. Maybe Seswatha isn't exactly what the Mandate believe him to be, the Sagas sorta validate that. Esmi muses that he is everywhere, and how could that be possible of one man? I admit the possibility of some falsehoods, yet I don't think it's gonna be as dramatic as Seswatha is working with the Consult, or never existed. You can find to much textual evidence that validates "the dreams" in some manner or another.

ETA: And, yes I'm eating my words by saying Kellhus is the one manipulating the dreams.

[Callan S.]

3 hours ago, Damned with the Wind said:

RE: the idea that the First Apocalypse as witnessed by Seswatha didn't actually happen.  We know the Mandate argue that the Sagas don't reflect the real history, so there's discrepancies between the dreams and the Sagas, but otherwise unless the Sagas themselves are fabrications (as is Akka's dreams as Nau-Cayuti and Celmomas), something happened.

But, we don't really know what Seswatha was up to during the First Apocalypse outside the specific dreams given to Mandate schoolmen.  Assuming Akka's dreams are real - we have a few 'real' dreams - Cel informing Seswatha of Ishual, Seswatha's affair, Cel's death from his point of view, and Nau-Cayuti in Golgotterath. 

The most interesting of the broken Seswatha dreams, and the one most indicative of the falsehood of the standard dreams is burning of the library of Sauglish - Seswatha despawns and Akka is left as a floating viewpoint in mid-air watching Skafra.  I think this dream is the one most indicative of what the dreams really are - they're basically scripted video game cut scenes - not actual relived moments of Seswatha's life.  Sometimes, the scripting goes wonky and errors occur.  But their intent is to present the world in a given fashion. 

I don't believe we can discern anything meaningful from the errors however, when the dreams go off-script, they aren't revealing any truth because they aren't in anyway related to whatever happened in the reality. 

Oh yeah! The funniest thing about it is that Seswatha is a hack! At first I thought everyone 'back then' was just a little bit straight and unimaginative, to a wooden degree. Look at the characterisations of people in Seswatha's dreams - that's right, you can't! There aren't any! It's really funny to have a nuanced character writer deliberately write a hack writers depiction into his story AS his nuanced story writing in depicting a deception! As Seswatha is photoshopping all the dreams!

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

48 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

So I'm coming up on half way through The White-Luck Warrior. Did anybody else kind of cringe when Achamian said that he and Mimara were "both victims of Esmenet" while she was telling him about her liberation from the brothel, and the subsequent burning of the surrounding district?

I cringe everytime I think about how Akka must feel about how Kellhus took his wife. I think it's supposed to make us cringe.

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I cringe everytime I think about how Akka must feel about how Kellhus took his wife. I think it's supposed to make us cringe.

Wow, did you miss the point of that question. 

Akka is equating losing out on what he considers his property - Esmenet - to another man, by her choice, to being sold into child prostitution and slavery. And what's especially awesome about this is that Esmenet was lost in part because Akka decided to go off and do something stupid. What did Mimara do to deserve her fate?

And of the two, apparently the losing your lady is the worse of the two things.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

28 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Wow, did you miss the point of that question. 

Akka is equating losing out on what he considers his property - Esmenet - to another man, by her choice, to being sold into child prostitution and slavery. And what's especially awesome about this is that Esmenet was lost in part because Akka decided to go off and do something stupid. What did Mimara do to deserve her fate?

And of the two, apparently the losing your lady is the worse of the two things.

How did I miss the point Kalbear? I understand the plight of Mimara and have a huge amount of compassion for her character, one of my favorite. I was stating what makes me cringe the most, what really bothers me. Why? It's something I can relate to, something that I could actually feel myself and be in their shoes and therefore it's more cringe worthy, to me. I can't relate to what Mimara experienced, can you?

Everytime I read a scene post Kellhus taking Esmenet, Akka denouncing them and his feeling for Esmenet and when she comes full circle and shares her memories of Akka, it all strikes a chord with me. Because one bothers me more than the other I guess I'm a misogynist pig, huh? Or, maybe it's just what I can relate to?

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

How did I miss the point Kalbear? I understand the plight of Mimara and have a huge amount of compassion for her character, one of my favorite. I was stating what makes me cringe the most, what really bothers me. Why? It's something I can relate to, something that I could actually feel myself and be in their shoes and therefore it's more cringe worthy, to me. I can't relate to what Mimara experienced, can you?

Everytime I read a scene post Kellhus taking Esmenet, Akka denouncing them and his feeling for Esmenet and when she comes full circle and shares her memories of Akka, it all strikes a chord with me. Because one bothers me more than the other I guess I'm a feminist pig, huh? Or, maybe it's just what I can relate to?

But the point here is that Akka is equating the two. That somehow, Akka's harm is equivalent to Mimara's harm as far as Akka is concerned. That he sees losing Esmenet as equivalent to what Mimara went through.

Whether or not you see it that way is actually immaterial here. The cringeworthy part is that Akka thinks losing his love is equivalent to child slavery and prostitution for most of your life. 

Now, you've taken it to another level - which is that you, personally, ALSO apparently think that of the two, Akka is worse. That wasn't what I said, mind you. In my post to you the only thing I stated was that you missed the point. I didn't say that you are a feminist pig (huh?) or whatnot - I said, simply, you missed the point. Which you did. 

As to whether I relate more to it or not - that has very little to do with what compassion and empathy I can have. I understand that you might get Akka's tale a bit more for whatever reason, but it doesn't make me cringe like what I think Mimara went through. 

 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

I didn't say it was worse, man do you love to put words in people's mouth and try and belittle them. Does it make you feel good, @Kalbear? I am not saying which one is worse, I am just stating what hits home to me. I just explained this. But, make it whatever you want Kalbear. I said explicitly that it hit home.more because it's something I can relate to. I never said it was worse than what Mimara went through. Show me were i said that. It's senseless having a conversation with someone who decides they can make up things you say, or believe how you feel. 

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I didn't say it was worse, man do you love to put words in people's mouth and try and belittle them. Does it make you feel good, @Kalbear? I am not saying which one is worse, I am just stating what hits home to me. I just explained this. But, make it whatever you want Kalbear. I said explicitly that it hit home.more because it's something I can relate to. I never said it was worse than what Mimara went through. Show me were i said that. It's senseless having a conversation with someone who decides they can make up things you say, or believe how you feel. 

Sorry I paraphrased. It is what apparently hit you the most and is more cringeworthy. Apparently that isn't the same as 'worse'. And again, it doesn't really matter as that still wasn't the original point - which is that Akka believes that what Esme 'did' to him is equivalent to what Esme did to Mimara. 

And okay, you cringe more thinking that you'd lose out on the love of your life choosing someone else vs. being raped and enslaved for most of your life as a child. Is that an accurate statement? 

[Darth Richard II]

1 hour ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

So I'm coming up on half way through The White-Luck Warrior. Did anybody else kind of cringe when Achamian said that he and Mimara were "both victims of Esmenet" while she was telling him about her liberation from the brothel, and the subsequent burning of the surrounding district?

I did a bit yeah. Heaven forfend I have an opinion on something not backed up by 5 pages of citations though.

[Larry of the Lawn]

5 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

I did a bit yeah. Heaven forfend I have an opinion on something not backed up by 5 pages of citations though.

Just do what I do, say something like "I think xyz, but I I don't have the books in front of me (wink wink), can someone please look up instances of xyz"

usually takes less than ten minutes to get a way better response than I could have ever come up with.

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Just do what I do, say something like "I think xyz, but I I don't have the books in front of me (wink wink), can someone please look up instances of xyz"

usually takes less than ten minutes to get a way better response than I could have ever come up with.

Heh. This is the Bakkerthread equivalent of stating something you know to be wrong in order to get an answer, because people will rush to correct you but will be slow to answer questions.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

2 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

While I empathized with Achamian at the end of the PON trilogy, I actually found the comparison with Mimara's situation, especially after twenty years, to make his bitterness towards Esmenet seem all the more petty and trivial. But the reason that the line made me cringe was, as Kalbear pointed out, that it was ridiculous for Achamian to compare the two situations. Mimara was enslaved and raped for years at a time, then immediately after was made to feel complicit in an act of mass murder. Achamian was dumped for another man, two decades beforehand. Regardless of the experience of the reader, I don't see how any rational person can equate the emotional trauma of those two experiences on any level.

I understand were you're coming from, I understand the point. It's awful. Esmenet's life pre-Kellhus is worse than what happens to Akka. Many more things that go on in the books worse than Akka losing Esmenet. I guess, what I am trying to say is that it's something that could happen to me, I see that and it drives the point home makes me empathize towards Akka. I cannot place myself in Mimara's  shoes. Does it make it any less awful what happened to her? No. And yes, I guess I kinda missed the point of your post. Which situation is worse in my mind? Mimara's, without a doubt. Esme's, Serwe's....all worse. I was just stating what situation I kind relate to in a manner, and it bothers me more because having that happen to me would be the end of my world. I could imagine feeling those same feelings and passions. Can I relate to or imagine being a prostitute? Nope. It doesn't mean that I don't think her situation wasn't worse. And now, that you and Kalbear explained how Akka tried to equate the two, yes it's silly and very cringe worthy. It's not even close. Sorry, I was just adding my thoughts as to things that make me cringe. What I could realistically relate to.

[Larry of the Lawn]

4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Heh. This is the Bakkerthread equivalent of stating something you know to be wrong in order to get an answer, because people will rush to correct you but will be slow to answer questions.

Oh that's another good one.  

 

Honestly though I might need a Bakker break before TUC comes out.  Today at work a co-worker told me so and so got fired and I without thinking I was all "some corruption begs not the cloth, but the knife".  

[Darth Richard II]

23 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Just do what I do, say something like "I think xyz, but I I don't have the books in front of me (wink wink), can someone please look up instances of xyz"

usually takes less than ten minutes to get a way better response than I could have ever come up with.

Yeah I was referring to uh, something else, but that's not a bad idea.

[Callan S.]

How is it definitely relating the two? How much evidence is there except first impression? Can someone beaten and someone forced to ride at the back of the bus both not call themselves victims of racism? Or is one treating themselves as a victim when they are not somehow?

Or can men not be hurt by rejection - it's all property this and property that?

Blimey, Earwa is super charged with instant judgement and yet here we are.

(all keeping in mind Akka walked past Esme without seeing as well, after he found out about the consult reemergence. Then Esme essentially didn't see him after he was lost and she tied herself to Kellhus. They've both walked past each other with blindness to the other because of a cause they follow)

[Larry of the Lawn]

31 minutes ago, Callan S. said:

How is it definitely relating the two? How much evidence is there except first impression? Can someone beaten and someone forced to ride at the back of the bus both not call themselves victims of racism? Or is one treating themselves as a victim when they are not somehow?

Or can men not be hurt by rejection - it's all property this and property that?

Blimey, Earwa is super charged with instant judgement and yet here we are.

(all keeping in mind Akka walked past Esme without seeing as well, after he found out about the consult reemergence. Then Esme essentially didn't see him after he was lost and she tied herself to Kellhus. They've both walked past each other with blindness to the other because of a cause they follow)

Not sure I understand the question.  It's much worse to be sold into child prostitution than to have a spouse leave you for someone else.  If that's not question, I'm sorry.  If the question is which is worse, and you aren't sure, or you think it's not the sold child prostitutw slavery, I don't know what to tell you.

 

Edit:. Rereading that perhaps my response was flippant.  I think Bakker very much intended the reader to consider and compare in what way they are both 'victims of Esment' or whatever.  Akkas a great character because on the one hand he's this extremely powerful sorceror of the rank who is privy to secrets that have built and ruined empires, tutor to a living god, and has been present for the most historically momentous events of his generation, and at the same time he's this pathetic, self-righteous, self-pitying, petulant bitter man who can't let shit go.  I think that his claim about them both being victims serves to ask the reader to consider how ludicrous this statement is.