Bakker XLVI: Make Eärwa Great Again

[Sarcellus]

8 hours ago, Triskan said:

Gods, this is just reminding me how unbelievably frustrating I find it that it appears that these theories about Moe are not true.  There's still some tiny hope we'll learn something big in the next book, but at this point it seems unlikely. 

At least we were partially validated in our Moenghus mania in TGO when Kellhus admits to Proyas that he thinks he made a mistake in listening to the visions and killing his Father.

[Rhom]

We talk of how unlikely it is for AK to survive the trip and the path must have been conditioned... but how did AM survive the trip initially?  How did he not wind up confused in Atrithau even worse than Kellhus and the leaf?

Lastly, and perhaps more cynically, are we ascribing traits to the text not intended by the author?  When considering:

21 hours ago, lokisnow said:

*this is the theory that kellhus has agency because he is so super-duper smart, and strong, and martial arts knowing and sword wielding, and all-knowing and such an infalliable awesome sauce archetypal genre hero and smart so smart so obviously the guy in charge of his own destiny, so obviously a hero who will tell the audience about how to find meaning in a meaningless world.

Shouldn't we also remember that Bakker purposely identifies Kellhus with himself?  Isn't it just as likely that RSB does consider AK to be exactly what @lokisnow describes?

[.H.]

36 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Shouldn't we also remember that Bakker purposely identifies Kellhus with himself?  Isn't it just as likely that RSB does consider AK to be exactly what @lokisnow describes?

I don't know that we should remember because I still haven't been able to find where he said that.

As for Kalbear's assertion that Bakker made Earwa where " philosophers were the most powerful thing in the universe" all I could uncover was Wilshire's report on a reading Bakker did, saying:

"After he was done Bakker lamented a bit about the plight of the philosopher in this day and age, and how he created Earwa as kinda a philosophers dream. By that, he meant that it was a place much unlike our own, where people philosopher's (schoolmen) were powerful and wealthy, and people respected them " (Yes, the smiley is in the quote.)

Suffice to say I read what that means somewhat differently.

[Maithanet]

1 hour ago, Rhom said:

We talk of how unlikely it is for AK to survive the trip and the path must have been conditioned... but how did AM survive the trip initially?  How did he not wind up confused in Atrithau even worse than Kellhus and the leaf?@lokisnow

It's been a long time since I read the PoN trilogy, but I thought there was some indication that Moenghus arrived with the Sranc when he encountered Cnauir.  The theory was therefore that AM encountered the Sranc soon after being expelled and came to dominate a small group of them.  That would imply he is either capable of dominating the Sranc via force or that he is in contact with the Consult.  That sort of reading was an essential part of the "Moenghus is behind it all" theories that were popular after PoN, but have been gradually falling apart with each subsequent book showing little evidence of Moenghus' enduring plans.

In addition, further evidence about the improbability of Kellhus just leaving Ishual and walking unmolested that entire way south: remember the very first meeting he has is with a group of sranc and Mekeritrig, literally the most important nonman in the consult.  Sure looks like conditioned ground, doesn't it?

[.H.]

24 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

It's been a long time since I read the PoN trilogy, but I thought there was some indication that Moenghus arrived with the Sranc when he encountered Cnauir.  The theory was therefore that AM encountered the Sranc soon after being expelled and came to dominate a small group of them.  That would imply he is either capable of dominating the Sranc via force or that he is in contact with the Consult.  That sort of reading was an essential part of the "Moenghus is behind it all" theories that were popular after PoN, but have been gradually falling apart with each subsequent book showing little evidence of Moenghus' enduring plans.

In addition, further evidence about the improbability of Kellhus just leaving Ishual and walking unmolested that entire way south: remember the very first meeting he has is with a group of sranc and Mekeritrig, literally the most important nonman in the consult.  Sure looks like conditioned ground, doesn't it?

Yes, he was a "prisoner" of a band of Sranc:

"He’d counted only sixteen summers the year his cousin Okyati had ridden into camp with Anasûrimbor Moënghus. Okyati and his war party had taken the man from a band of Sranc travelling across Suskara."

"Throughout the transaction, Moënghus had simply watched, blue eyes glittering from a battered face. When his gaze momentarily settled on Skiötha’s son, Cnaiür sneered at him with adolescent contempt. The man was little more than a bundle of rags, pale skin, mud, and clotted blood—another broken outlander, less than an animal.

But this, Cnaiür now knew, was precisely what the man had wanted his captors to think. For a Dûnyain, even degradation was a potent tool—perhaps the most potent."

I think it is perfectly plausible that Moënghus manipulated the Sranc in order to get himself across Suskara.

While I think the Moënghus behind it all, I have doubled down on the crackpot theory that Thousandfold Thought being external to both Moënghus and Kellhus and a definite candidate for having conditioned Kellhus journey.

[Maithanet]

3 minutes ago, .H. said:

Yes, he was a "prisoner" of a band of Sranc:

"He’d counted only sixteen summers the year his cousin Okyati had ridden into camp with Anasûrimbor Moënghus. Okyati and his war party had taken the man from a band of Sranc travelling across Suskara."

I think it is perfectly plausible that Moënghus manipulated the Sranc in order to get himself across Suskara.

Thank you for the book quote!

Yeah, I feel like Moenghus taking over the Sranc band seems likely.  I mean, since when do Sranc take prisoners?  Does that happen anywhere else in the series? 

If Moenghus could dominate the Sranc once, then he could do it again to clear a path for Kellhus.  It isn't certain whether this means that Moengus was in contact and manipulating the Consult, or that he just could dominate some Sranc and not have that information get back to the Consult higherups. 

[.H.]

29 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Yeah, I feel like Moenghus taking over the Sranc band seems likely.  I mean, since when do Sranc take prisoners?  Does that happen anywhere else in the series?

Not that I recall, but the Glossary says:

"The motivations of the Sranc seem to be as base as imaginable, in that they seem to find sexual gratification in acts of violence. There are innumerable accounts of the indiscriminate rape of men, women, children, and even corpses. They seem to know nothing of mercy or honour, and though they do take prisoners, very few are known to have survived captivity, which is said to be savage beyond imagining."

There was also the theory (I can't recall who came up with it) that Moënghus met Mekeritrig in his first trip outside Ishual.  This was why he left.  Or, alternatively, he met him on his journey south.  In this way, he might have somehow influenced Mek into doing his bidding, rousing the Sranc to be elsewhere, or some such.  A possible textual clue to this is when Mek says, “Yes,” he said. “Yes . . . You do not merely mock me. I can see his blood in your face.”  We would normally take that to mean Celmomas, but perhaps that is misdirection.

Implausible, but a possible idea.

[Maithanet]

13 minutes ago, .H. said:

There was also the theory (I can't recall who came up with it) that Moënghus met Mekeritrig in his first trip outside Ishual.  This was why he left.  Or, alternatively, he met him on his journey south.  In this way, he might have somehow influenced Mek into doing his bidding, rousing the Sranc to be elsewhere, or some such.  A possible textual clue to this is when Mek says, “Yes,” he said. “Yes . . . You do not merely mock me. I can see his blood in your face.”  We would normally take that to mean Celmomas, but perhaps that is misdirection.

Implausible, but a possible idea.

I don't find that implausible.  Not definite, certainly, but plausible.  At the very least, I find Makeritrig's presence very suspicious.  The idea that Kellhus just happened to encounter no sranc for his entire journey, and then when he finally does, it is a band of sranc led by Mek... seems very questionable.  Maybe Bakker just made a mistake here and we're overthinking it, but I definitely hoped there were some explanation, and by far the most likely suspect is some scheme of Moenghus. 

[.H.]

7 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I don't find that implausible.  Not definite, certainly, but plausible.  At the very least, I find Makeritrig's presence very suspicious.  The idea that Kellhus just happened to encounter no sranc for his entire journey, and then when he finally does, it is a band of sranc led by Mek... seems very questionable.  Maybe Bakker just made a mistake here and we're overthinking it, but I definitely hoped there were some explanation, and by far the most likely suspect is some scheme of Moenghus. 

I only say implausible because we are going off much conjecture and little textual evidence.

My personal theory is that it all goes well beyond Moënghus, because his plan actually failed.  Moe even admits that his own probability trances failed him at a point (although that was later) and that the Thousandfold Thought "came to him" not him to it.  In this way, I think the Thought has been the "prime mover" of Kellhus the whole time, conditioning his whole journey (and Moënghus' too).

[Maithanet]

2 minutes ago, .H. said:

I only say implausible because we are going off much conjecture and little textual evidence.

My personal theory is that it all goes well beyond Moënghus, because his plan actually failed.  Moe even admits that his own probability trances failed him at a point (although that was later) and that the Thousandfold Thought "came to him" not him to it.  In this way, I think the Thought has been the "prime mover" of Kellhus the whole time, conditioning his whole journey (and Moënghus' too).

Hmm, I'll admit I don't particularly want that to be true, because IMO it isn't as interesting.  This story is already suffering from too many characters who lack agency, and adding Kellhus and Moe to the list won't make things any better. 

The problem with all Moenghus theories is that Dunyain are liars.  Nothing he says can be accepted as true.  I've probably read the Kellus and Moe conversation 5+ times, and the more you think about it the less you know.  So while you are right that he says the Thought came to him, there's no way to know if that is an illuminating turn of phrase, or a meaningless nothing, or purposeful misdirection. 

[.H.]

2 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Hmm, I'll admit I don't particularly want that to be true, because IMO it isn't as interesting.  This story is already suffering from too many characters who lack agency, and adding Kellhus and Moe to the list won't make things any better. 

The problem with all Moenghus theories is that Dunyain are liars.  Nothing he says can be accepted as true.  I've probably read the Kellus and Moe conversation 5+ times, and the more you think about it the less you know.  So while you are right that he says the Thought came to him, there's no way to know if that is an illuminating turn of phrase, or a meaningless nothing, or purposeful misdirection. 

Yeah, I mean, TGO kind of made me a bit sad when we learn that time isn't exactly linear, or whatever the hell it is in Earwa.  I've embraced it though.

My theory largely stems from the visions Kellhus has, of whom it seems are of himself and seem to tell him to do things.  So in a way Kellhus does have agency and yet, not.  We even have the Ciphrang he encounters tell him he has been to places and said things he hasn't yet.  So, Kellhus is the Prime Mover, even of Kellhus himself.

[Kalbear]

2 hours ago, .H. said:

I don't know that we should remember because I still haven't been able to find where he said that.

As for Kalbear's assertion that Bakker made Earwa where " philosophers were the most powerful thing in the universe" all I could uncover was Wilshire's report on a reading Bakker did, saying:

"After he was done Bakker lamented a bit about the plight of the philosopher in this day and age, and how he created Earwa as kinda a philosophers dream. By that, he meant that it was a place much unlike our own, where people philosopher's (schoolmen) were powerful and wealthy, and people respected them " (Yes, the smiley is in the quote.)

Suffice to say I read what that means somewhat differently.

That was what I was referring to, yes. Thanks for finding that. Not that it's all that surprising; the whole world revolves around philosophy, especially the most powerful things in it. 

[.H.]

9 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

That was what I was referring to, yes. Thanks for finding that. Not that it's all that surprising; the whole world revolves around philosophy, especially the most powerful things in it. 

Indeed, I take that to mean it's a place where philosophy yields demonstrable and powerful results, rather than just navel-gazing.  In this way, it is less easy to dismiss.

As for the whole Bakker as Kellhus, he hasn't in anything I can find, he seems to show contempt for Kellhus and his means.  He even answers the question of where Kellhus came from with this:

"R. Scott Bakker - The question of Kellhus’s origin comes up frequently, and for some time now I’ve been trying to resuscitate those few memories that managed to survive the intervening twenty or so years of psycho-social trauma and substance abuse. What I’ve come up with is this. Reading Dune was a watershed event in my life. I grew up in a poor, backcountry household, where reading and education were not held in high esteem (though argumentation was – likely because my father is Dutch). What struck me most in Dune was the way disciplined thought – and I’m thinking of the Bene Gesserit in particular here – reliably translated into political and interpersonal advantage. I found myself loving anything that combined subtlety and intrigue. Then, when I was about nineteen or twenty, I read Douglas Hoftstadter’s Metamagical Themas, a collection of his essays for Scientific American, which included a piece on ‘memes.’

Without getting too technical, memes are simply beliefs conceived functionally. All of us have individual beliefs, but very few us consider either the social functions of those beliefs, or the ways in which they evolve and spread over time. Belief is a foundation of action. Just think of paper money: the only reason people are willing to exchange organs and stereos for those paper slips is they believe that others will also exchange organs and stereos for them as well. What gives money its power is our collective belief in ways others will act in response to it. Since all this is implicit in our daily routines, we just think of it as ‘the way things are.’

When you look at beliefs as memes, you look at them as something analogous to genes: the better ‘adapted’ a belief is, the more likely it is to reproduce. This move from looking at beliefs as something like little paintings that either did or did not capture the world to semi-autonomous things that coordinated and commanded our collective actions literally blew my mind at the time. For the first time I realized that most of what we believe has far more to do with conserving existing social hierarchies than with accuracy or truth. And I remember at the time thinking of a character who was a ‘meme-master,’ someone who could dominate all those around him by revising and rewriting the memes that underwrote all their actions. Kellhus.

That was where the original idea for the ‘Kellhus meme’ came from – I think. The next step in his evolution came with my readings of Theodor Adorno. The dominant tradition in mainstream literature is to depict protagonists stranded in a potentially meaningless world trying to find some kind of compensatory meaning – usually through some conception of ‘love.’ You’ve literally seen this pattern countless times. Kellhus offered me an opportunity to turn this model on its head. What makes fantasy distinct is that the worlds depicted tend to be indisputably meaningful – in a sense that’s what makes them fantastic! I thought to myself, what would a story of a protagonist stranded in a meaningful world struggling to hold onto meaninglessness look like?

Thus the ‘Prince of Nothing’ was born. Now he’s spreading, reproducing… "

[Kalbear]

The specific Kellhus as Bakker thing came from an offhand comment he made at some reading. The three seas post is here, where he used his driver license to verify his height. Physically they're very similar looking - long, light colored curly hair, tall. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

57 minutes ago, .H. said:

I only say implausible because we are going off much conjecture and little textual evidence.

My personal theory is that it all goes well beyond Moënghus, because his plan actually failed.  Moe even admits that his own probability trances failed him at a point (although that was later) and that the Thousandfold Thought "came to him" not him to it.  In this way, I think the Thought has been the "prime mover" of Kellhus the whole time, conditioning his whole journey (and Moënghus' too).

I think that's where all evidence points to. Only thing I'll add that is a little different. I don't think it leaves Kellhus without agency. Because, I think it's Kellhus that is directing events from the Outside. Hard to explain what I mean, but if Kellhus makes it to the Outside and can see as the gods see, then he can direct (condition) everything.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

34 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

The specific Kellhus as Bakker thing came from an offhand comment he made at some reading. The three seas post is here, where he used his driver license to verify his height. Physically they're very similar looking - long, light colored curly hair, tall. 

I think Akka is what RSB is at heart, and that Kellhus is who RSB would want to be if he lived in a world like Earwa.

[Sarcellus]

Funny that by "Bakker says Kellhus is his stand-in" Kalbear actually meant "I've taken these two disparate second-hand comments to assume such."

[Kalbear]

8 minutes ago, Sarcellus said:

Funny that by "Bakker says Kellhus is his stand-in" Kalbear actually meant "I've taken these two disparate second-hand comments to assume such."

Yes? So? There's certainly more textual and extratextual evidence to that than there is, say, asserting that Akka is his stand-in. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

6 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Yes? So? There's certainly more textual and extratextual evidence to that than there is, say, asserting that Akka is his stand-in. 

Yea, not his stand in so much as who he is at heart. I think from interviews we see that Bakker is a man that is unsure of himself.and hiso works in.some ways. Always wary, worried.he got.it.right and a philosopher to boot. I mean I see your point, the looks and imagining himself all powerful. But, I don't think that is who RSB is at heart. Maybe, a bit condescending at times as most scholarly people.can be, but I think he is a good dude at heart. Not, what many have tried to make him out to be.

ETA: scholarly is probably the wrong word, physcologist would better fit. The seem to think they know what everyone is thinking. From his Q&A and interviews I watched of him, he does seem down to.Earth though. Seems nice.enough a fellow to me.

 

[Kalbear]

I don't think that personally he's like either Kellhus or Akka. He certainly doesn't come off as doubtful in his interviews, at least not to me. He also seems significantly more clever than Akka, or at least attempts to be. 

I also don't think that Kellhus has his personal philosophy, which is largely that we are meat puppets that barely grasp their own view. Kellhus is what he would be if he was a lot smarter and could recognize innately all these meat puppet things in others while avoiding his own. Kellhus is more like him if he were evolved and bred. He's not Kellhus in that respect; he's Celmomas. 

For the most part the comparisons to Kellhus are useful to me not because they indicate the philosophy and worldview Bakker might ascribe to and more they indicate who is going to be successful. It is hard for me to imagine that your in-game avatar is going to die a fiery death, for instance. It is hard for me to imagine that the series will be about how Kellhus is super, super wrong for the same reason. It's hard for me to imagine that Kellhus' goal of saving the world and saving humanity are not at their face genuine. What this means, to me, is that it is unlikely that Kellhus ends up being the No-God, or ends up damning the world, or ends up siding with the Inchoroi; those simply aren't the actions that a player-character modeled after a person tend to do, regardless of who is playing it.

But Akka isn't modeled after Bakker, so all bets are off on him.