Bakker XLVI: Make Eärwa Great Again

[Valandil]

2 hours ago, .H. said:

Not that I recall, but the Glossary says:

"The motivations of the Sranc seem to be as base as imaginable, in that they seem to find sexual gratification in acts of violence. There are innumerable accounts of the indiscriminate rape of men, women, children, and even corpses. They seem to know nothing of mercy or honour, and though they do take prisoners, very few are known to have survived captivity, which is said to be savage beyond imagining."

There was also the theory (I can't recall who came up with it) that Moënghus met Mekeritrig in his first trip outside Ishual.  This was why he left.  Or, alternatively, he met him on his journey south.  In this way, he might have somehow influenced Mek into doing his bidding, rousing the Sranc to be elsewhere, or some such.  A possible textual clue to this is when Mek says, “Yes,” he said. “Yes . . . You do not merely mock me. I can see his blood in your face.”  We would normally take that to mean Celmomas, but perhaps that is misdirection.

Implausible, but a possible idea.

This exchange does not read this way to me. It seems to me that mekeretrig has not met moenghus in any shape or form. His reactions to Kelhus do not seem those of a nonman with experience of a dunyain. Indeed he comments on how memorable he found the experience as Kelhus takes his leave. No doubt moenghus conditioned Kelhus' journey to him in ways, just don't think that was part of it. Could be wrong. 

Things on that front got away from him in general, culminating in their tete a tete in the abandoned non man mansion 

 

[Darth Richard II]

Didn't he introduce himself as Kellus at some speech he gave once?

[Kalbear]

8 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Didn't he introduce himself as Kellus at some speech he gave once?

nah. The person that called him onstage called him Anasurimbor. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Anyhow,  I found the last couple pages refreshing everyone debating things from PoN.

[Darth Richard II]

I need to do a re read. My TBR pile is like at 316 though, so, ha.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

 

1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

I need to do a re read. My TBR pile is like at 316 though, so, ha.

316?!?!??! Youre a maniac. And, from what I remember you are a physical copy guy, right? Where in the world do you keep all of them. Phew, I only get physicals of one's I love, kids books, and the wife only reads physical. We have 5 books shelves and are in need of another. I just don't know where to put it. I can't imagine having that many physical copies.

[Darth Richard II]

Ha, my basement is pretty much a Library, I  have (counts) 12 shelves, and I need another.

I also hoard books like, um, a hoarder.

[Callan S.]

I'm waiting to find out Anasarimbor is actually some terrible name to call someone amongst his friends and he gets called that by people he knows in that 'You old bastard!' way.

[Callan S.]

On 2/1/2017 at 11:14 PM, Let's Get Kraken said:

The way I understood that scene, Cnaiur's insanity made him  hard to read. Remember how distraught he became when he realized that he killed Moe? He didn't even know what he was going to do until it was done, so how could Moenghus have sensed his intentions?

Remember he caught Kellhus off guard the same way when Kellhus was planning on killing on the beach.

Yeah, it's kind of like Sorweel's fake face, except Cnaiur's sheered himself in half. Moe saw what he wanted to see, he didn't think there was any unknown about Cnaiur that was unknown to him.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

5 minutes ago, Callan S. said:

Yeah, it's kind of like Sorwheel's fake face, except Cnaiur's sheered himself in half. Moe saw what he wanted to see, he didn't think there was any unknown about Cnaiur that was unknown to him.

I think you're right. But, when  read that scene it feels like (to me) Moe wanted salted. He knew something no one else didnt. Like, I still don't buy that Kellhus could've stabbed him so easily.

[Callan S.]

1 minute ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I think you're right. But, when  read that scene it feels like (to me) Moe wanted salted. He knew something no one else didnt. Like, I still don't buy that Kellhus could've stabbed him so easily.

That could be a possibility.

Maybe he just couldn't read his son who was mad and then his other adopted and mad son, Cnaiur, couldn't be read (or atleast I read the books as Kellhus faintly seeing a brother in Cnaiur, kind of in the way he faintly feels his human love for Esme). The madness he'd sewed caught up with him and madness came swirling down.

[.H.]

13 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Yes? So? There's certainly more textual and extratextual evidence to that than there is, say, asserting that Akka is his stand-in. 

I certainly don't see Akka as an analogue either, for the record.  It wasn't my intention to prove that at all.

As for evidence, well, I think it's actually all fairly ambiguous, so you can probably read into it whatever you like.  If you really feel it must be true that Kellhus is Bakker's avatar, sure, but I think you can find evidence to the contrary in many things Bakker has said.

Another example:

"Insofar as I put myself in their headspace, you could say that all of my characters are expressions of the possible headspaces I can occupy. I know this unnerves my wife, who now and again asks me to sleep on the couch after proofing a chapter."

12 hours ago, Valandil said:

This exchange does not read this way to me. It seems to me that mekeretrig has not met moenghus in any shape or form. His reactions to Kelhus do not seem those of a nonman with experience of a dunyain. Indeed he comments on how memorable he found the experience as Kelhus takes his leave. No doubt moenghus conditioned Kelhus' journey to him in ways, just don't think that was part of it. Could be wrong. 

Well, I merely said possible, but in reality there is an even more deeply "hidden" reason why he might have said that.  There was supposed to be a Glossary item reading:

"820 - The Rape of Omindalea. Jiricet, a Nonman Siqû to the God-King Nincarû-Telesser II (787-828), rapes Omindalea (808-825), first daughter of Sanna-Neorjë (772-858) of the house of Anasûrimbor in 824, and then flees to Ishterebinth."

So, what Mekeritrig could well be referring to is actually Jiricet's blood, Nonman blood.  Recall that Mekeritrig is Cet’ingira, who was also a Siqû, so chances are very good he knew Jiricet and perhaps very well.  I have also ventured to speculate that the Anasûrimbor line having Nonman blood in them might explain a few things (Kellhus' "exceptionalism," the fact of being The Few, the Nonman ambassadors curious request to touch his face, the issues of him having children with "most" women, and so on...).

[IllusiveMan]

Not exactly related, but on the subject of Moe, I'm curious why he hasn't yet been able to determine the existence of the Outside/Damnation? Forgive me if I'm wrong, as it has been some time since I last read the original trilogy. But from what I recall the primary motivation, at least as Kellhus explains it, for killing Moe is he ascertains that eventually Moe would figure out that he is damned and would therefore align with the Consult, yes? 

But why has Moe in thirty years among the world been able to discover the objectivity of damnation? The factuality of the concept is pretty assumed in world, from topos to those who have ventured into the Outside to the summoning of demons, etc. Kellhus is able to figure it out in much less time and even substantially less adept figures such as Akka are pretty aware of the objectivity of damnation. The Scarlet Spires even seem to have recordings of all known figures who've journeyed to the Outside and returned, if I recall. So why would Moe be unable to figure out that he is damned in thirty years (but, according to Kellhus eventually determine its truth and so align with the Consult)? 

I'm very likely misremembering things, so forgive me, but this has always nagged at me. 

[Rhom]

25 minutes ago, IllusiveMan said:

Not exactly related, but on the subject of Moe, I'm curious why he hasn't yet been able to determine the existence of the Outside/Damnation? Forgive me if I'm wrong, as it has been some time since I last read the original trilogy. But from what I recall the primary motivation, at least as Kellhus explains it, for killing Moe is he ascertains that eventually Moe would figure out that he is damned and would therefore align with the Consult, yes? 

But why has Moe in thirty years among the world been able to discover the objectivity of damnation? The factuality of the concept is pretty assumed in world, from topos to those who have ventured into the Outside to the summoning of demons, etc. Kellhus is able to figure it out in much less time and even substantially less adept figures such as Akka are pretty aware of the objectivity of damnation. The Scarlet Spires even seem to have recordings of all known figures who've journeyed to the Outside and returned, if I recall. So why would Moe be unable to figure out that he is damned in thirty years (but, according to Kellhus eventually determine its truth and so align with the Consult)? 

I'm very likely misremembering things, so forgive me, but this has always nagged at me. 

1) Welcome to the board.

2) That entire exchange between AK and AM has been the topic of much debate.  Was Kellhus correct in his suppositions?  Did Big Moe let him go on with his monologue and then play along with it?  Did he allow himself to be stabbed/killed?

I don't remember who pointed it out long ago, but Kellhus is monologuing like any great cartoon villain and seems to be making progress... then he trips on a rock... and he goes on with more AM exposition.  The theory around here is that Kellhus tripping on the rock (when a Dunyain should be fully aware of his surroundings) is a sign that he is incorrect at that point.

The full theory is a fascinating ready, someone else will have to fill in the blanks that I am misremembering.

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, Rhom said:

1) Welcome to the board.

2) That entire exchange between AK and AM has been the topic of much debate.  Was Kellhus correct in his suppositions?  Did Big Moe let him go on with his monologue and then play along with it?  Did he allow himself to be stabbed/killed?

I don't remember who pointed it out long ago, but Kellhus is monologuing like any great cartoon villain and seems to be making progress... then he trips on a rock... and he goes on with more AM exposition.  The theory around here is that Kellhus tripping on the rock (when a Dunyain should be fully aware of his surroundings) is a sign that he is incorrect at that point.

The full theory is a fascinating ready, someone else will have to fill in the blanks that I am misremembering.

Wasn't it a fibrous skill or something?  Which I believe is a phrase repeated in one of the TGO ishterebinth chapters as they make their descent?

[Larry of the Lawn]

Sorry for double post but it won't let me edit.

 

Also, crackpot and I'll have to look for some evidence, but let's say it's Esmi that Yatwer and the WLW are blind to, because she purely gave, when she gave Serwe and Kellhus her water in the desert.  Bakker said (and i take this with a grain of salt) in the feedback thread that it's not Ajokli the WLW was blind to.  Still could be Kelmomas, or Kellhus, but I wonder if there's something there.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

5 hours ago, Rhom said:

 Did he allow himself to be stabbed/killed?

My personal opinion, yes. And, I'm quite sure about that. He had his eyes (snakes) with him in hiding watching everything. I wouldn't be surprised, as I said before, that he intended to be salted. Ithe could be Moe that is in Kellhus's visions. They look exactly alike and that was pointed out ad nauseum during PoN. WE CAN REVIVE THE MOE IS THE MOVER THEORIES!!!!

[Callan S.]

19 hours ago, .H. said:

the issues of him having children with "most" women, and so on...).

Speaking of, what's with the whole 'Esmenet, such an old fashioned name' bit that gets mentioned about four times over the books, plus some sort of ancient story of an Esmenet acting as the crutch for some guy. Anyone built up any theory on that? Particularly because only Esme can bear Kellhus's children, it seems.

[Rhom]

2 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

I'm probably dancing with the devil a little bit by asking questions in this thread without having read TGO yet, but what was the deal with that child chipping salt off the dead sorcerer at the end of TTT? Was he just a one-shot character or was he recruited into the Consult? Does that scene have anything to do with the theories about Moe allowing himself to be salted?

I'm trying to remember, but I feel like someone speculated that chanv was the salted remains of sorcerers.  Doesn't is say something in that scene about the child chipping away his fortune or something that would imply he would be selling the salt?

Chanv just seems to disappear in the second sequence of books (was about to say second trilogy...) and is replaced by qirri.  I believe some had speculated that chanv was the salting equivalent of the qirri ashes.

 

[matt b]

1 hour ago, Rhom said:

I'm trying to remember, but I feel like someone speculated that chanv was the salted remains of sorcerers.  Doesn't is say something in that scene about the child chipping away his fortune or something that would imply he would be selling the salt?

Salt was a major commodity in the ancient and medieval worlds. If it's somewhere close to the same sort of commodity in Earwa (which seems a logical assumption to me) then a life-size statue of salt would indeed be a fortune, no chanv needed.