Bakker XLVI: Make Eärwa Great Again

[Kalbear]

I think a lot of this makes a lot more sense if you realize that the progression of time is an illusion. This, I think, is the important statement:

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Only when the past dies can we shrug aside the burden that is our Soul!"

 

As you say, the soul is the ledger - but it is there both in the past and the future. Mimara can see everything that you've ever done through looking at your soul; it bears witness. Without that, you have nothing but your meat to inform you of what you will do and why. You are a sranc or a skin-spy, essentially - stripped of your soul that carries every sin you do and will ever do. 

And when you don't have that connection, your sins cannot hold you, and you can become something. You are no longer watched or a part of the Zero-God, or at least you do not have your connection to it. (Chances are good that it is the bidirectional connection which is broken, not the actual Zero-God). When you have no burden you can do anything, be anything, and nothing is decided.

To me, the concept of Being vs. Becoming is more similar to the argument between free will and determinism. Being is something that as he says 

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"To be! Being is not a choice!"

Being is not a choice. Everything must Be. Everything must exist; I sin, therefore I am. Being is also what everything will be; it is determined, writ in time. 

Becoming however - it is a mystery. It is surprise, new, impartial, interesting. In this way I have another thought. What if the nonmen lose their selves and their memories because as they get older they get closer to the Zero-Point of God, and instead of losing their memory they lose what they understand to be their personal memory. They lose self, lose their personal connection to prior actions. Their sin starts to ebb away, have less and less impact on their memory, and as a result they lose that singular illusion. As they lose more and more they become more and more connected with everything else, all that exists. It is madness - because the idea that you are not a singular being is the most mad thing that exists. (this is also a potential reason why Kellhus is considered 'mad' - because he also grasps that he is not singular at the moment of the circumfix). 

And only by doing something atrocious and horrible, a great sin, can that connection be triggered again and self return, albeit briefly. 

[.H.]

26 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

As you say, the soul is the ledger - but it is there both in the past and the future. Mimara can see everything that you've ever done through looking at your soul; it bears witness. Without that, you have nothing but your meat to inform you of what you will do and why. You are a sranc or a skin-spy, essentially - stripped of your soul that carries every sin you do and will ever do.

True, the soul must somehow be the witness to your corporeal body and in this way, it is what holds you "accountable" for your sins.

28 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

And when you don't have that connection, your sins cannot hold you, and you can become something. You are no longer watched or a part of the Zero-God, or at least you do not have your connection to it. (Chances are good that it is the bidirectional connection which is broken, not the actual Zero-God). When you have no burden you can do anything, be anything, and nothing is decided.

Indeed, I think part of what holds you to your sins is the knowledge of your damnation.  In the way that the Nonmen have forgotten, they are indeed unshackled by the burden of knowing, remembering they are indeed damned.  The wight of Gin'yursis seems to say this as well, when he asks Nil'giccas, "how could we have forgotten about damnation?"  Nil'gicacs insists he never did and perhaps that is true, but I think most did. We know now why Nil'giccas could maybe have remembered, since he had Oinaral as the last Intact to be his Eiju.

Profgrape, in another conversation, set me on a path to thinking that this might be part of why the Inverse Fire is so important, it is a literally reminder of damnation (another idea dawns on me of the Inverse Fire as yet another meme, astride, or perhaps opposed to the "Kellhus meme" but that is another can of worms).  Is this how the Inchoroi have remained "sane" for so long, where the Nonmen failed to do so?

52 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Being is not a choice. Everything must Be. Everything must exist; I sin, therefore I am. Being is also what everything will be; it is determined, writ in time. 

Being is basically following the Darkness that Comes Before then, perhaps?

53 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Becoming however - it is a mystery. It is surprise, new, impartial, interesting. In this way I have another thought. What if the nonmen lose their selves and their memories because as they get older they get closer to the Zero-Point of God, and instead of losing their memory they lose what they understand to be their personal memory. They lose self, lose their personal connection to prior actions. Their sin starts to ebb away, have less and less impact on their memory, and as a result they lose that singular illusion. As they lose more and more they become more and more connected with everything else, all that exists. It is madness - because the idea that you are not a singular being is the most mad thing that exists. (this is also a potential reason why Kellhus is considered 'mad' - because he also grasps that he is not singular at the moment of the circumfix). 

And only by doing something atrocious and horrible, a great sin, can that connection be triggered again and self return, albeit briefly.

So, Becoming as "the trackless ground" and so unconditioned, perhaps?  In other words, self-moving?

I don't think that Nonmen are closer to Zero though, because while they lose their personal identity, they don't seem to accrue a wider one.  Perhaps they could, but I think a key to attaining Zero would be the absolution of sin, which I do not think the Nonmen experience.  They are damned, almost irrevocably now, being so divorced from their souls.

I think the part about madness though might be something of the opposite.  Kellhus goes mad when he opens himself to listening to the Voice.  The voice of himself, apart from himself in time and yet not.  That is the madness, to listen to a voice of yourself from beyond yourself.  It's mad to even consider that you could tell yourself something from the future.  But that's the thing, there is no future in the Outside, there probably isn't time at all.  Then again, you can be right too, that Kellhus grasped Zero, or something like it, on the Circumfix.  I an genuinely unsure if I am apt to believe that Kellhus grasps Zero fully.  My brain says yes, but my gut says no.

[Kalbear]

Just now, .H. said:

Profgrape, in another conversation, set me on a path to thinking that this might be part of why the Inverse Fire is so important, it is a literally reminder of damnation (another idea dawns on me of the Inverse Fire as yet another meme, astride, or perhaps opposed to the "Kellhus meme" but that is another can of worms).  Is this how the Inchoroi have remained "sane" for so long, where the Nonmen failed to do so?

I think that it's more a matter of genetics than anything else; the Inchoroi were designed to live forever and transfer their minds to other vessels and the like. Nonmen were never meant to live that long. I'm still super skeptical that the Inverse Fire is actually real, mind you. 

Just now, .H. said:

Being is basically following the Darkness that Comes Before then, perhaps?

Well, sort of. Again, I don't believe in TDtCB; your previous actions don't matter and basically everything is already ordained and already has happened. Being is simply existing in the book that is all of time. You don't consciously do it, you have no choice in the matter, and even if I skip ahead to page 400 it doesn't change what you did on page 110. This is another reason that damnation is the ultimate horror - not only are you damned for completely capricious acts, you're damned for actions that you believe you had a choice in but never, ever did. 

Just now, .H. said:

So, Becoming as "the trackless ground" and so unconditioned, perhaps?  In other words, self-moving?

Similar to that, yeah.

Just now, .H. said:

I don't think that Nonmen are closer to Zero though, because while they lose their personal identity, they don't seem to accrue a wider one.  Perhaps they could, but I think a key to attaining Zero would be the absolution of sin, which I do not think the Nonmen experience.  They are damned, almost irrevocably now, being so divorced from their souls.

Dunno - Cleric became this crazy preacher, Mek also seemed to be a real talker about philosophy. Both seemed to be a lot more broad than, say, most humans were. We attributed it to them being so fucked up, but it may also be that they were closer to the Zero-God. 

Just now, .H. said:

I think the part about madness though might be something of the opposite.  Kellhus goes mad when he opens himself to listening to the Voice.  The voice of himself, apart from himself in time and yet not.  That is the madness, to listen to a voice of yourself from beyond yourself.  It's mad to even consider that you could tell yourself something from the future.  But that's the thing, there is no future in the Outside, there probably isn't time at all.  Then again, you can be right too, that Kellhus grasped Zero, or something like it, on the Circumfix.  I an genuinely unsure if I am apt to believe that Kellhus grasps Zero fully.  My brain says yes, but my gut says no.

I don't think that Kellhus grasped the principle that Koringhus did. However, much like @Happy Ent said a while back, I think that at the moment of the Circumfix he was closer to becoming part of the Zero-God than he ever had, and this allowed him to do weird-ass things like grab Serwe's heart from his own chest and become one with everything. I don't think he understands it like Koringhus did; in particular I think he's too wedded to the notion that causality matters. But he was still able to experience it, and now believes that the God and the No-God talk with him, and that he is one of the most holy because he sees so much further. 

He went mad because he got so close to the Zero-God, but he has interpreted that madness completely wrong going forward. He believes it is all, still, part of his being the most powerful self.

[Callan S.]

H,

It might be worth considering the quote 'One cannot raise walls against that which has been forgotten'

Once all is forgotten, walls cannot be raised. Without walls, the being called cleric is able to assess himself without that assessment being blocked by inner walls.

In regard to self assessment it might also be worth remembering that after Kellhus goes through his training as a child, he utters 'I was legion', IIRC

He still searches for memories because being is not a choice, but like some sort of stage show where the rear curtain (a wall) breaks and falls, revealing a pile of props in the background and showing up the scene in the foreground as mere fabrication, he has seen the fabrication and yet still craves the show like he did when it was not show but real. Even though the show can never be real for him again - that is why Nil'giccas is dead.

On depravity, the erratics are in a great madness. When they do something that basically desecrates the things they loved, they are absolutely horrified and ashamed! But these feelings - these are memory! They hunger for memory as they lose all that they were with their lost memory. So you have two weights - one being the feeling of horror, but the other of loosing everything they are. And the second weight outweighs the first in priority. Pure revenant.

 

[.H.]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

I think that it's more a matter of genetics than anything else; the Inchoroi were designed to live forever and transfer their minds to other vessels and the like. Nonmen were never meant to live that long. I'm still super skeptical that the Inverse Fire is actually real, mind you. 

I actually agree with this, the books even allude to the idea that Nonmen were somewhat forgetful even before they were immortal.  I do think the Inverse Fire is real though, as real as anything else though, mind you.

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Well, sort of. Again, I don't believe in TDtCB; your previous actions don't matter and basically everything is already ordained and already has happened. Being is simply existing in the book that is all of time. You don't consciously do it, you have no choice in the matter, and even if I skip ahead to page 400 it doesn't change what you did on page 110. This is another reason that damnation is the ultimate horror - not only are you damned for completely capricious acts, you're damned for actions that you believe you had a choice in but never, ever did.

Right, you were lead to do what you did and yet you'll pay for them for eternity.  In that way, I do still see the Darkness as existent.  Everything has already happened, yet Kellhus still manages to surprise Yatwer.  I think both things can be somewhat true, that the Principle of Before and After is often true, yet, it is not the whole picture.  In the same way, everything has already happened, yet, somehow is not deterministic.  I'm unsure how this is possible, really, but that's my hunch.

11 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Dunno - Cleric became this crazy preacher, Mek also seemed to be a real talker about philosophy. Both seemed to be a lot more broad than, say, most humans were. We attributed it to them being so fucked up, but it may also be that they were closer to the Zero-God.

Hmmm, I need to think more on this.  I'm really not sure.  The plurality that Nil'giccas seemed to speak of signaled, to me, something more of caprice than of a unity principle.  I  think Mek is a definite outlier though, owning to his Consult membership, the Inverse Fire could be a confounding of what we are seeing.  Of course, if the Inverse Fire isn't a lie.

15 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I don't think that Kellhus grasped the principle that Koringhus did. However, much like @Happy Ent said a while back, I think that at the moment of the Circumfix he was closer to becoming part of the Zero-God than he ever had, and this allowed him to do weird-ass things like grab Serwe's heart from his own chest and become one with everything. I don't think he understands it like Koringhus did; in particular I think he's too wedded to the notion that causality matters. But he was still able to experience it, and now believes that the God and the No-God talk with him, and that he is one of the most holy because he sees so much further. 

He went mad because he got so close to the Zero-God, but he has interpreted that madness completely wrong going forward. He believes it is all, still, part of his being the most powerful self.

I can definitely see it going both ways, Kellhus realizing that Before and After is somewhat untrue, yet him still sticking to it.  That's part of why I have a feeling that somehow the Principle of Before and After is just a part of the whole of Earwa.  Before and After can get you to a certain point, but like the intercessional actions of Yatwer (and maybe Ajolki) prove, there is still more to it.  It's kind of how we have usable physics right now, even though some quantum elements of things remain outside the prevailing models.  What the Unified Field Theory of Earwa looks like though, I have no idea, but it seems like it is part mundane and part metaphysical (that's not the right word, I don't think).

21 minutes ago, Callan S. said:

It might be worth considering the quote 'One cannot raise walls against that which has been forgotten'

Once all is forgotten, walls cannot be raised. Without walls, the being called cleric is able to assess himself without that assessment being blocked by inner walls.

In regard to self assessment it might also be worth remembering that after Kellhus goes through his training as a child, he utters 'I was legion', IIRC

That's an interesting dichotomy, where Erratics seek to unleash the Legion and Dunyain, via Kellhus to "yoke[d] the legion that was his soul."

Interesting to note too, the fragmentation of souls is sort of parallel to the fracturing of the God of Gods.

25 minutes ago, Callan S. said:

He still searches for memories because being is not a choice, but like some sort of stage show where the rear curtain (a wall) breaks and falls, revealing a pile of props in the background and showing up the scene in the foreground as mere fabrication, he has seen the fabrication and yet still craves the show like he did when it was not show but real. Even though the show can never be real for him again - that is why Nil'giccas is dead.

On depravity, the erratics are in a great madness. When they do something that basically desecrates the things they loved, they are absolutely horrified and ashamed! But these feelings - these are memory! They hunger for memory as they lose all that they were with their lost memory. So you have two weights - one being the feeling of horror, but the other of loosing everything they are. And the second weight outweighs the first in priority. Pure revenant.

I think it is sort of an unconscious thing.  It's sort of biologically programmed, in the same way that as a human you will tend to find patterns in "random" data, even if there are none.  It's just what your brain is made to do.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, .H. said:

I can definitely see it going both ways, Kellhus realizing that Before and After is somewhat untrue, yet him still sticking to it.  That's part of why I have a feeling that somehow the Principle of Before and After is just a part of the whole of Earwa.  Before and After can get you to a certain point, but like the intercessional actions of Yatwer (and maybe Ajolki) prove, there is still more to it.  It's kind of how we have usable physics right now, even though some quantum elements of things remain outside the prevailing models.  What the Unified Field Theory of Earwa looks like though, I have no idea, but it seems like it is part mundane and part metaphysical (that's not the right word, I don't think).

On this - again, think on that Dunyanic idea where they're meditating and it feels like Kellhus becomes one with everything and loses his self. The Dunyain frame this as going into a state where they can predict everything and lose some of their biases, but that is a conceit based on the idea that the self actually exists independently. Kellhus hearing voices and doing all these things happened; his interpretation is "because I am totally awesome and really powerful" when it should be "because the concept of I does not exist and the aspect of the Zero-God that resides in Kellhus became more aware of the Zero-God". 

So it's not that he thinks that the principle of Before and After is untrue and sticks with it. It's that he gets information and interprets it to fit his worldview, and ignores any other possibility. It simply confirms more of what he already knew, and whatever doesn't fit doesn't get as much attention. 

Whereas Koringhus finds something that cannot possibly fit in his worldview - Mimara's power cannot possibly exist in any system that allows for tDtCB - and therefore he has to change his view. Koringhus is the Dunyain who doesn't meet humans first - he meets  Sranc and Nonmen erratics - and the first humans he meets appears to be Mimara and Akka. Compare this with Moe and Kellhus, who see humans as children; Koringhus sees Akka that way, but Mimara sees completely through his lies and his sins.

As to the Yatwer/Ajokli stuff, I admit I haven't worked it out. My current theory is that Yatwer et al believes that what they see is everything, so anything else must be wrong - they are blind the same way humans are with their confirmation bias. Only Ajokli does not. This explains why the Gods ignore the No-God and why Yatwer can be surprised, but it doesn't explain how the White Luck gets thwarted and what the hell is to do with that, nor does it explain whether or not that was preordained and already happened.

[.H.]

9 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

On this - again, think on that Dunyanic idea where they're meditating and it feels like Kellhus becomes one with everything and loses his self. The Dunyain frame this as going into a state where they can predict everything and lose some of their biases, but that is a conceit based on the idea that the self actually exists independently. Kellhus hearing voices and doing all these things happened; his interpretation is "because I am totally awesome and really powerful" when it should be "because the concept of I does not exist and the aspect of the Zero-God that resides in Kellhus became more aware of the Zero-God". 

So it's not that he thinks that the principle of Before and After is untrue and sticks with it. It's that he gets information and interprets it to fit his worldview, and ignores any other possibility. It simply confirms more of what he already knew, and whatever doesn't fit doesn't get as much attention. 

Whereas Koringhus finds something that cannot possibly fit in his worldview - Mimara's power cannot possibly exist in any system that allows for tDtCB - and therefore he has to change his view. Koringhus is the Dunyain who doesn't meet humans first - he meets  Sranc and Nonmen erratics - and the first humans he meets appears to be Mimara and Akka. Compare this with Moe and Kellhus, who see humans as children; Koringhus sees Akka that way, but Mimara sees completely through his lies and his sins.

Bakker's favorite saying (not really, but he has said it) "when you have a hammer, everything is a nail."  Kellhus has the Probability Trance and the Thousandfold Thought so why not keep beating the world into submission with it?  Even if it isn't complete, it seems to be effective.  I'm genuinely unsure if Kellhus suspects that his hammer isn't the whole shebang, but I think he might.  Not that he can change much.  I think he is as much a slave to the Thousandfold Thought as anyone he has manipulated, not in the least because I think he is actually the one manipulating himself.

I think though that one thing we might be making a "mistake" on is assuming that one person has the right of things and so another is wrong.  I think each "major player" is holding a few pieces of the puzzle, thinking it is the whole thing.  The truth is that everyone is somewhat right and somewhat wrong.  Maybe Wutteat really has the right of it all, with his "is not truth infinite?"

18 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

As to the Yatwer/Ajokli stuff, I admit I haven't worked it out. My current theory is that Yatwer et al believes that what they see is everything, so anything else must be wrong - they are blind the same way humans are with their confirmation bias. Only Ajokli does not. This explains why the Gods ignore the No-God and why Yatwer can be surprised, but it doesn't explain how the White Luck gets thwarted and what the hell is to do with that, nor does it explain whether or not that was preordained and already happened.

Indeed, once I seem to think I have something squared away, another part fails to fit.  But like I said above, maybe the trick is that we need to fit some parts from column A, some from B, others from C together to really see the full picture?  I still think that somehow, the Darkness, the gods, self-moving souls and Zero do actually connect, in a way that allows each to be true, to a certain extent.  But maybe I am being too generous to the idea of synthesis here to think there is a "unity" to such disparate things.

Unless we are just staring at a paradox, but I really hope that isn't the case.  I need to mediate on this more though, I think.

[lokisnow]

Soul is a ledger fits with both how swazond function ( writing a literal ledger on the corporeal body in reflection of the soul ledger) and of course neatly explains the circuit of watcher and watched. 

Which per kal the binary of said circuit is an illusion: a structuration that koringhus collapses, it is right there in the etymology--zero cannot be a binary, inherently.

Speaking of right there in the etymology. If cunoroi are _being_ then NON-men are _becoming_; this should then lead us to the same etymology that if the Gods are _being_ than the NO-god is becoming. This would explain the similarities in clerics up thread statements with the Statements of tsurumnah.

in terms of atrocity as a memory trigger, this may be a deliberate result of inchoroi meddling with the nonmen rather than a natural state of sentient existence. This could also be a self indulgent lie, as we have mountains of evidence that cnaiur uses atrocity to try to forget not to remember, nonmen could very well have it backwards, or we the audience have it backwards and the nonmen strive to forget for theological purposes of _becoming_ thus the atrocity mechanism is employed.

Note that cleric is hardly erratic in comparison to those we meet in ishterebinth and despite folks calling him erratic, he does not present as erratic. Indeed, he only dons the appearance of erraticism to "suicide" in a death by cop scenario, so it seems he was putting on a show without suffering from it. We have a good reason for this, he and mekeritrig are likely as old as the boatman, and may possess a similar immunity.

[Kalbear]

47 minutes ago, .H. said:

Bakker's favorite saying (not really, but he has said it) "when you have a hammer, everything is a nail."  Kellhus has the Probability Trance and the Thousandfold Thought so why not keep beating the world into submission with it?  Even if it isn't complete, it seems to be effective.  I'm genuinely unsure if Kellhus suspects that his hammer isn't the whole shebang, but I think he might.  Not that he can change much.  I think he is as much a slave to the Thousandfold Thought as anyone he has manipulated, not in the least because I think he is actually the one manipulating himself.

The issue I have with this is that this is the structural thing that I want most to actually be true. I want Kellhus (and Moe) to be as self-deluded and blinded to their own biases as all the rest, because I think it would have the most narrative oomph. I want Serwe the selfless and Mimara the holy to be the main ones who understand best how the world works, and Kellhus to be ultimately a victim of his confidence in his rightness. 

Therefore, I need to watch out for things that don't confirm this and ensure they're vetted, because I'll otherwise ignore them more. 

Kellhus' monologue in TGO about how 'aren't I the one who has seen the farthest, who has been the greatest' makes me think that I'm more right; his weird meditation on a head on a pole behind you and how things are a Place makes me think I'm less right.

47 minutes ago, .H. said:

I think though that one thing we might be making a "mistake" on is assuming that one person has the right of things and so another is wrong.  I think each "major player" is holding a few pieces of the puzzle, thinking it is the whole thing.  The truth is that everyone is somewhat right and somewhat wrong.  Maybe Wutteat really has the right of it all, with his "is not truth infinite?"

Indeed, once I seem to think I have something squared away, another part fails to fit.  But like I said above, maybe the trick is that we need to fit some parts from column A, some from B, others from C together to really see the full picture?  I still think that somehow, the Darkness, the gods, self-moving souls and Zero do actually connect, in a way that allows each to be true, to a certain extent.  But maybe I am being too generous to the idea of synthesis here to think there is a "unity" to such disparate things.

Unless we are just staring at a paradox, but I really hope that isn't the case.  I need to mediate on this more though, I think.

Unfortunately I suspect that we won't get super far into the metaphysics, as I think Bakker indicated that he wants to keep them something mysterious. This is one of the reasons that I'm expecting something of a letdown with TUC, similar to Lost - that we'll get some answers, but the answers may be pretty shallow and only lead to more confusing questions, like 'the real nature of the Dunyain Feminine' ended up doing. 

That said, I think that you can figure out at least some of the puzzle by looking not at what people believe or have deduced, but what evidence exists. We know things like Cishaurim don't leave marks, that things are ranked and ordered, that there exists a way to see essentially into the future and collapse at least part of the universe into predestination. We know that everyone keeps with them all the sins that they've accrued - as do places and objects. We know the gods are blind to the No-God and thus do not see everything, but behave as though they do. We know that the Outside exists and travel to and from it is possible. We know damnation is real (per, among other things, Saubon's viewpoint). We know that there exists a way to connect people to other people, such as with Kellhus and Serwe's heart. 

We aren't totally sure about things like Mimara being able to forgive sin, the full nature of time, the full nature of damnation, the full nature of the No-God, and we don't know for sure if Koringhus is right (though I'll point out that if he was just guessing and isn't right his whole storyline is completely superfluous). 

[unJon]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

 We know damnation is real (per, among other things, Saubon's viewpoint). We know that there exists a way to connect people to other people, such as with Kellhus and Serwe's heart. 

 

Careful with these two assumptions. Mimara saw damnation as a "false foil" when she inverted the Chorae in TJE. 

On the second one, Bakker said Kel is not above chicanery. And HITB. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Great stuff guys. I'll add that one piece of evidence that points to Koringhus having the right of it and Kellhus does not, is Koringhus revelation on Love. (And as Kalbear says, you have to go against your biases to find the truth.) 

He draws the hundredth stone from the waist of his tunic. “This is yours now.” The boy, the most blessed fraction, looks to him in alarm. He would deny the interval between them, if he could. He cannot.

Whereas, when Proyas asks Kellhus about love, Kellhus says, "is for lesser souls.".

I am of the suspicion that Koringhus has to be right also. Now, I can't fathom how it all fits together neatly and I doubt we'll ever know. As for Mimara and Serwe being the most right, I think that's all proven in the Koringhus section also. 

 

And so it was with the Absolute. Surrender. Forfeiture. Loss … At last he understood what made these things holy. Loss was advantage. Blindness was insight, revelation. At last he could see it—the sideways step that gave lie to Logos. Zero. Zero made One.

Bakker said Serwe was a cipher for the series. If the above isn't a direct description of Serwe, I don't know what is. I think, and another clue that Kellhus isn't wholly correct, Serwe isn't damned as he suggested to Proyas. She's as holy as the make her in the New Empire.

[unJon]

Oh nice. Compare Koringhus grasping the Zero:

"He would deny the interval between them, if he could. He cannot."

With Aurang whining he is damned because of "boundaries of skin."

As in the Inchoroi deny the interval between distinct souls, and are damned for it. 

[Callan S.]

5 hours ago, .H. said:

I think it is sort of an unconscious thing.  It's sort of biologically programmed, in the same way that as a human you will tend to find patterns in "random" data, even if there are none.  It's just what your brain is made to do.

Sounds even more nihilistic than what I was saying, the way I'm reading you!

[PapushiSun]

Has anyone figured out the limitations and powers of the Gods?

For instance what does this sentence from Chapter 4 mean?

Quote

His was a power and potency that not even the Gods, who must ration themselves across all times, could hope to counter, short of scooping themselves hollow and forever dwelling as phantoms.

 

[.H.]

13 hours ago, Kalbear said:

The issue I have with this is that this is the structural thing that I want most to actually be true. I want Kellhus (and Moe) to be as self-deluded and blinded to their own biases as all the rest, because I think it would have the most narrative oomph. I want Serwe the selfless and Mimara the holy to be the main ones who understand best how the world works, and Kellhus to be ultimately a victim of his confidence in his rightness. 

Good point.  I too, have long suspected that Kellhus isn't "the whole truth" or even a "genuine" savior, so I definitely have some confirmation bias at finding things to support this.

13 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Unfortunately I suspect that we won't get super far into the metaphysics, as I think Bakker indicated that he wants to keep them something mysterious. This is one of the reasons that I'm expecting something of a letdown with TUC, similar to Lost - that we'll get some answers, but the answers may be pretty shallow and only lead to more confusing questions, like 'the real nature of the Dunyain Feminine' ended up doing.

That's true, I don't think we get a total curtain draw, but I have a feeling that post0TUC we'll at least have a reasonable idea what is more probable.  At least, so I hope.

 

13 hours ago, Kalbear said:

That said, I think that you can figure out at least some of the puzzle by looking not at what people believe or have deduced, but what evidence exists. We know things like Cishaurim don't leave marks, that things are ranked and ordered, that there exists a way to see essentially into the future and collapse at least part of the universe into predestination. We know that everyone keeps with them all the sins that they've accrued - as do places and objects. We know the gods are blind to the No-God and thus do not see everything, but behave as though they do. We know that the Outside exists and travel to and from it is possible. We know damnation is real (per, among other things, Saubon's viewpoint). We know that there exists a way to connect people to other people, such as with Kellhus and Serwe's heart. 

We aren't totally sure about things like Mimara being able to forgive sin, the full nature of time, the full nature of damnation, the full nature of the No-God, and we don't know for sure if Koringhus is right (though I'll point out that if he was just guessing and isn't right his whole storyline is completely superfluous).

I agree with those and so the issue we have isn't really answering what might be true, but the synthesis of how they can all be true with respect to each other.  I think asking if there really is a unity concept that bridges all of them, or if Earwa is just sort of a modular creation, built of discrete metaphysical units that make up the amalgam that is Earwa.  I suspect there might be some way to tie all of it together, but I think we still don't have enough information to really do it.

10 hours ago, Callan S. said:

Sounds even more nihilistic than what I was saying, the way I'm reading you!

I guess?  Haha, the way I imagine Being, striving for memory, I don't think the process itself is necessarily conscious and deliberate.  It's the mind's way of "making sense" of the world.  In the same way that your brain fills in the blind-spot of your vision without you thinking about it, the mind seeks to fill the blind-spot of it's continuum when memory is missing.

7 hours ago, PapushiSun said:

Has anyone figured out the limitations and powers of the Gods?

For instance what does this sentence from Chapter 4 mean?

That's a tough one.  I think that somehow the gods (note, not God, which is different), i.e. the Hundred, are somehow limited by the atemporal nature of the Outside, by way of how intersessional they can be on the Inside.  Why this is I don't know, but that quote seems to imply that influence on the Inside is "costly" to them.  It stands to reason that the 100 are not actually infinite, since we sort of "know" that they are divisions, even if we don't know why.

Perhaps it is related to their need for souls?  Is their "power" proportional to the souls they have consumed (accrued)?  Are they comprised of those souls?  And so in influencing the world, some of them are "spent?"

[Callan S.]

Quote

the way I imagine Being, striving for memory, I don't think the process itself is necessarily conscious and deliberate.  It's the mind's way of "making sense" of the world.  In the same way that your brain fills in the blind-spot of your vision without you thinking about it, the mind seeks to fill the blind-spot of it's continuum when memory is missing.

Yeah, but the way you were saying it sounded like 'mind' itself was just a pattern the brain was trying to find in what is random data. To me, anyway.

[.H.]

5 hours ago, Callan S. said:

Yeah, but the way you were saying it sounded like 'mind' itself was just a pattern the brain was trying to find in what is random data. To me, anyway.

Hmm, not quite what I meant, but plausible, I guess.  I mean, mind would seen to just a formation out of the "chaos" of neuro-function, so in that way, I imagine that some of the "pattern" of it could be illusory and system built.  Hmmm, I'm not sure though.

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

One query I have regarding souls: we know they enter the World from the Outside, we know who possess them (Men, Nonmen and Inchoroi) and who do not (Sranc, Skinspies, other Consult abominations), and we know where they go when their possessors die (the Outside again, most likely damnation of one variety or another). We also know the No-God can close passage between the World and the Outside. But are we ever given any indication as to the origins of souls? Are they smaller fragments of the God (micro-Ciphrang if you will)? Or are they born anew out of the Void? Do they drift into the World as of their own accord? Or are they cast into the World by the Gods as seeds for future harvest?

[Callan S.]

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and who do not (Sranc, Skinspies, other Consult abominations)

Most skin spies. Nearly all.

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

7 hours ago, Callan S. said:

Most skin spies. Nearly all.

Ah yes, forgot Simas.