Bakker XLVI: Make Eärwa Great Again

[.H.]

12 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Also, @H how can you attribute the "voice" to the legion within when you attribute it to the No-God a paragraph before? The "Voice" is the same across the entirety of the text. It's seems it's someone (maybe Kellhus, Koringhus or Moe) who is directing/guiding Kellhus. You know, with how time works on Earwa and all that. You guys say that he does indeed feel emotions but doesn't actually on them.... I think this is hogwash.

There is The Voice and then there is his internal monologue.  It's confusing and a reason why it is hard to isolate certain things.

The Voice is from the dreams, of himself (or whoever) that appears under the tree.  The voice he hears in that small part there though is simply himself, not himself from the future or anything, but rather his "higher consciousness" or his rational mind, his Conditioned mind, leveraging the Logos to tame the Legion.  He is somewhat mad in that scene, but not through remorse, or even sadness, but despair.  He was using Serwë and now she is gone, so he fears he has failed.  If Kellhus really did love her, why would he let them kill her?  Why would he allow her to be sacrificed?  In fact, after that scene, Kellhus never displays an ounce of feeling about Serwë at all.  No mourning, no sadness, nothing.

Where later we see Koringhus save the crab-hand boy, for no rational reason at all, except that it was his son.  Out of love, not reason.  Kellhus doesn't do anything emotionally.  His every action is calculated.  Kellhus may have feelings, but they are irrelevant to what he does.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Kelly's cracking toward madness before the circumfixtion.  Pretty sure anyway, that with the Saubon/ punish the Shrial Knights incident Kellhus is questioning where this shit is coming from.  

[.H.]

2 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Kelly's cracking toward madness before the circumfixtion.  Pretty sure anyway, that with the Saubon/ punish the Shrial Knights incident Kellhus is questioning where this shit is coming from.  

There is a further option here too, I know that Bakker is fond of Borges and I've listened to the Algorithic Earwa talk a bunch, and of course, today, in reading Home Deus (which Bakker did a positive review of several months ago) came across this quote about Broges story "A Problem":

Quote

As long as he fought imaginary giants, Don Quixote was just play-acting, but once he actually kills somebody, he will cling to his fantasies for all he is worth, because they are the only thing giving meaning to his terrible crime. Paradoxically, the more sacrifices we make for an imaginary story, the stronger the story becomes, because we desperately want to give meaning to these sacrifices and to the suffering we have caused.

Ironically (not really) enough, the header for Chapter 25 of WP, after Kellhus is off the Circumfix, starts with the following epigraph:

Quote

What is the meaning of a deluded life?

—AJENCIS, THE THIRD ANALYTIC OF MEN

I have, in the past, thought about what the function of Moe's luring Kellhus to him was and even more so, what the point of the confrontation between them was.  In my last reread, I presented the idea that possibly what Moe was really doing was edifying Kellhus to a singular course of action.  Pre-Circumfix, Kellhus doubts.  Post-Circumfix, he does not.  And certainly, post-Kyudea, does no err from the path he has set himself on.

Kellhus, most-deluded-of-all, buys his own shit, gets pot-commited and doubles down on the Tousandfold Thought, because otherwise, what the hell has be done?

[lokisnow]

On 2/21/2017 at 10:55 AM, .H. said:

Well, by his own likening, "Loss was advantage. Blindness was insight, revelation."  Interestingly, loss is what Koringhus has and blindness what Moe had.  What does Kellhus have?  Certainly none of "Surrender. Forfeiture. Loss … At last he understood what made these things holy."  So, it is plausible that Koringhus and Moe have more right than Kellhus does.  Part of this might be what is Kellhus' undoing, he thinks he can "win" via knowledge and power, when it is just the opposite that is the linchpin.

I think the key is that they all had separate pieces of the puzzle, I think part of what makes our task of figuring it out so difficult: all three are both right and wrong, just about different things.

Note that moe could be seen as either deliberately losing or choosing to be sacrificed in order to gain advantage ala koringhus.

kellhus and cnaiur may have been able to kill moe because moe set them up so that he would not suffer damnation.

in other words the whole thousandfold thought and summoning of kellhus isn't about saving the world nor the consult at all. Rather TTT and summoning kellhus are selfishly created to craft an elaborate scenario such that moe will not be damned at the moment he dies.

Nothing more nothing less. just pure self interest about one person--ME!--and fuck everyone else.

we are all just fooling ourselves there is no higher purpose.

[lokisnow]

23 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Yea, maybe I just read it differently than you guys. No biggie. That's why each and everyone of us come away from reading a book with different experiences. 

I felt that the scene (@H, quotes it's for us) shows Kellhus going mad from the loss of Serwe. Also, @H how can you attribute the "voice" to the legion within when you attribute it to the No-God a paragraph before? The "Voice" is the same across the entirety of the text. It's seems it's someone (maybe Kellhus, Koringhus or Moe) who is directing/guiding Kellhus. You know, with how time works on Earwa and all that. You guys say that he does indeed feel emotions but doesn't actually on them.... I think this is hogwash. He has started a Great Ordeal to defeat the Consult and whatever else his plans are to end damnation (I assume). And, this was all part of him losing Serwe on the Circumfix. Whatever Kellhus's ultimate plan is, is for people like Serwe. Sorry, this is a love story at heart. 

Hmm I read this as either conversing with another outside of kellhus or conversing with the second inner voice possessed by anasirimbor bloodline. Regardless of the source of the voice kellhus is suffering physical torment which was sufficient to break koringhus. The mundanity of being physically crucified is probably the source of his breakage, not some textually nonexistent love for serve he suddenly feels.

[Darth Richard II]

Ha, textually nonexistent love. I like that.

[lokisnow]

I don't want to go to far down the moe rabbit hole again, but consider the purpose of the viramsata conversation in the context of TTT Being a lie about the world to enable moe to escape damnation. seems to fit. Moe has kellhus believing in his version of the worlds narrative with its holy wars and sorcerers and ancient enemies and fallen races and kellhus as the super awesome chosen one with superpowers here to save it all. Extra textually, all secondary worlds exist for the only purpose that the chosen one hero can save it via improbable sacrifice and devotion to the cause so who is to say moe has not created a secondary world with kellhus as the chosen one hero because putting the hero in the context of that secondary world narrative is crucial to moes personal salvation

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

I guess when I say love it's a tad bit too strong of a word to choose. But, I do feel that Kellhus chose the path he did, because he realized damnation and just how many people will be damned. I don't think that Kellhus knows everything, I do expect him to be blindsided by something along the way. But, whether you chose to call it love or not, doesn't really matter. What makes him want to defeat the Consult and ultimately damnation (again, I assume) is his relationship with people such as Serwe. Serwe is part of the reason he went mad on the Circumfix, and he thinks he'said more because unlike Moe, Kellhus thinks he won't put his damnation ahead of defeating the Consult. At least that's what we're told in their convo.

[unJon]

10 hours ago, .H. said:

There is The Voice and then there is his internal monologue.  It's confusing and a reason why it is hard to isolate certain things.

The Voice is from the dreams, of himself (or whoever) that appears under the tree.  The voice he hears in that small part there though is simply himself, not himself from the future or anything, but rather his "higher consciousness" or his rational mind, his Conditioned mind, leveraging the Logos to tame the Legion.  He is somewhat mad in that scene, but not through remorse, or even sadness, but despair.  He was using Serwë and now she is gone, so he fears he has failed.  If Kellhus really did love her, why would he let them kill her?  Why would he allow her to be sacrificed?  In fact, after that scene, Kellhus never displays an ounce of feeling about Serwë at all.  No mourning, no sadness, nothing.

Where later we see Koringhus save the crab-hand boy, for no rational reason at all, except that it was his son.  Out of love, not reason.  Kellhus doesn't do anything emotionally.  His every action is calculated.  Kellhus may have feelings, but they are irrelevant to what he does.

I read the scene in TGO about Kel's decision to abandon the Ordeal to go back to Monmen as being driven by emotion. Specifically emotional attachment (love?) of Esmi. 

Also how do you interpret the Sparing of Cnauir TWP? Keil goes to kill him and is then moved by some emotion (pity?) to spare Cnauir and then post hoc justifies it with an explanation that he may still have a use for him. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

1 minute ago, unJon said:

I read the scene in TGO about Kel's decision to abandon the Ordeal to go back to Monmen as being driven by emotion. Specifically emotional attachment (love?) of Esmi. 

Also how do you interpret the Sparing of Cnauir TWP? Keil goes to kill him and is then moved by some emotion (pity?) to spare Cnauir and then post hoc justifies it with an explanation that he may still have a use for him. 

I have cited these same examples @unJon. I am crazy for doing so, I'm told. Kellhus is just a place with no feelings whatsoever. I think that's a crock. I believe he let Akka live out of respect and the devotion Akka showed him also. He wasn't expecting to be repudiated.

[Darth Richard II]

Oh we're all crazy.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

1 minute ago, Darth Richard II said:

Oh we're all crazy.

Well, no. I believe that ten different people reading the same book, will come away with different views of the characters, their feelings and intentions. I just see that there is textual evidence for what makes a Dûnyain "mad", and that is emotion. Kellhus gains emotion all throughout PoN. We see more of it in TAE. I think his decisions are partly based on said emotions. Others dismiss them as Kellhus "being who he needs to be". Well, if we agree that the Circumfix drove Kellhus mad, then it goes without saying that emotion is a part of that.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

I wouldn't go as far as saying Kellhus is completely moved by emotion and makes all his moves based off them. But, increasingly they have an effect on him. I believe Kellhus was truly hurt and felt betrayed by Esme at the end of TGO. Now, will this have an effect on him moving forward? Sure. He might become even more ruthless, or look to gain the confidence of his wife, I dunno. I don't think we're done with Esme, that I'm certain.

[Darth Richard II]

People have different views of books and characters all the time, that doesn't make them all correct.

[Darth Richard II]

1 hour ago, unJon said:

I read the scene in TGO about Kel's decision to abandon the Ordeal to go back to Monmen as being driven by emotion. Specifically emotional attachment (love?) of Esmi. 

 

Funny, I read that as Kellus being mad that his wife broke all his toys while he was gone.

[Kalbear]

Kellhus leaving the Ordeal as purely an emotional tactic doesn't make a lot of sense on any level, because of his prior rape and preparation of Proyas. Conversely, his rape of Proyas doesn't make sense at all from a narrative standpoint if he's going to leave to get to Momemn. 

To me, it seems clear that Proyas was being prepared to be the leader of the Ordeal without Kellhus. That is the setup going forward, though to what end I'm not clear about. But if that's the case, where was Kellhus going to go if not Momemn? Dagliash apparently offered Kellhus greater opportunity, but it is something that they already planned on doing, apparently - that big wipe out of forces and then leaving - so how could it be purely an emotional call? 

Furthermore, why does Kellhus appear at the almost precise instant he needs to in order to thwart Psatma and Meppa and WLW? That's a bit high for correspondence of cause. Now, it makes sense if he has a lot of contact/vision into Momemn and knows that he'll need to be there soon - though that's also an oddity, given that the reason he needed to show up then was because of the earthquakes. 

There's another possibility, which is that this is how this all happened because the WLW collapsed the wave function of various probabilities and therefore this was the only way he could actually get to Kellhus at all. There was only one insanely improbable path that led to the WLW, and that involved Kellhus raping Proyas. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

9 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

People have different views of books and characters all the time, that doesn't make them all correct.

Your right. But, there are differing opinions that have textual evidence to back up both claims. More people than I feel that Kellhus is moved by emotions. 

Consider this, we know through Moe/Kellhus talk that Kellhus thought Moe would eventually go over to the Consult when he learned of his damnation. So, that begs the question, what makes Kellhus any different? He claims he is more, he's bought into the notion he is the savior. If Kellhus dwasnt driven by emotion, why would he even care to stop the Consult? If his only aim was to end damnation and the hell with everyone else he would just join up with the Consult. He doesn't though. He cares enough about humanity to fight the Consult and prevent the unleashing of the No-God. He wants to preserve life on Earwa. That to me is enough evidence right there that emotion fuels his goals. Not considering even more evidence that I could pile on top of that, which I have....ad nauseum. 

[.H.]

13 hours ago, unJon said:

I read the scene in TGO about Kel's decision to abandon the Ordeal to go back to Monmen as being driven by emotion. Specifically emotional attachment (love?) of Esmi. 

Also how do you interpret the Sparing of Cnauir TWP? Keil goes to kill him and is then moved by some emotion (pity?) to spare Cnauir and then post hoc justifies it with an explanation that he may still have a use for him. 

I feel that even if the return to Momemn was not premeditated (and like Kalbear, I do believe it was) even so, I do not think he returned solely for sentimental reasons.  If there is a sentiment, it isn't some abstract love, it's pragmatism.  Why does returning to Momemn somehow mean he really loves Esmenet?  Because he saves her?  Color me unconvinced.  He has been gas-lighting Esmenet since day one.  Esmenet was (is) little more than yet another tool for him.

Sure, it's plausible that he somehow thought it prudent to kill Cnaiür but pitied him and so spared him, but if so, it's also plausible that the reverse is true, that he emotionally felt he should kill Cnaiür and then rationally thought better of it.  He does feel a passion, but what?  He attempts to name if pity, but I have a great deal of doubt about that.  Lets look at that part:

Quote

Dead eyes.

And Kellhus realized: I cannot read this man.

“I followed you across the trackless Steppe.”

The slap of bare feet across waterlogged sand. Cnaiür paused before him, his great frame glistening as though enamelled in the moonlight.

“I loved you.”

Kellhus reached back, drew his Dûnyain sword, levelled it before him. “Kneel,” he said.

The Scylvendi fell to his knees. He held out his arms, trailing fingers through the sand. He bent his face back to the stars, exposing his throat. The Meneanor surged and seethed behind him.

Kellhus stood motionless above him.

What is this, Father? Pity?

He gazed at the abject Scylvendi warrior. From what darkness had this passion come?

First, Kellhus realizes he cannot read him and so, he draws his sword and commands him to kneel, in other words, if he cannot domiate him by reading, he will cow him by force.  Cnaiür calls his bluff though and bears his throat.  So, what is Kellhus feeling here?  He names it pity, but why would he pity him?  No, Kellhus is feeling frustration for the first time.  Something a prodigy like him never probably has.  Here he has read and dominated every person he has met and yet not this one.  He has been able to use force on anyone and yet not this one.  So, he feels pity toward him?  No, the passion comes first and it wasn't pity, the rational thought comes after, sparing him.

No, he realizes that Cnaiür's indomitability is exploitable, just as everything else is.

Let be honest though, almost everything with Kellhus is somewhat ambiguous.  Confirmation bias is going to be high in any case.

3 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Consider this, we know through Moe/Kellhus talk that Kellhus thought Moe would eventually go over to the Consult when he learned of his damnation. So, that begs the question, what makes Kellhus any different? He claims he is more, he's bought into the notion he is the savior. If Kellhus dwasnt driven by emotion, why would he even care to stop the Consult? If his only aim was to end damnation and the hell with everyone else he would just join up with the Consult. He doesn't though. He cares enough about humanity to fight the Consult and prevent the unleashing of the No-God. He wants to preserve life on Earwa. That to me is enough evidence right there that emotion fuels his goals. Not considering even more evidence that I could pile on top of that, which I have....ad nauseum.

That is a mystery, but I don't think that emotions have to be the root cause.  Rather, Kellhus could be attempting to play all sides against the middle, vis-a-vis the gods and the Consult and The Voice, in the pursuit of his own interest.  In other words, Kellhus Ascendant.  In this case, I'd imagine Kellhus is attempting to become the God of Gods, or something close.

Another option is that Kellhus, who in Bakker's own words is a " cipher for modernity" represents an ascendant Humanism.  In other words, meaning generated not by some arcane supernatural ontology, no discorporate Cubit, but meaning for Humans by Humans.  In this way, he is not ending Damnation, a la the Consult, but rather, rewriting the rules of Damnation.  This could well be why it is important to end Zeüm, a last stronghold of old belief.

I don't know that this is really an emotional drive, or a pragmatic realization that the loop of Consult ascendant, Apocalypse, rise and repeat simply needs to be ended if anything will ever really be gained.

[aceluby]

17 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

 Well, if we agree that the Circumfix drove Kellhus mad, then it goes without saying that emotion is a part of that.

This has probably been discussed a lot on here, but I personally don't think he was driven mad.  In fact, I don't see any kind of line of demarcation of that scene that would say his thought process had changed that much.  The only real difference is that he now has A LOT more information to go by in order to complete the shortest path.  He was also pretty crazy before that point, so I'll just say that I really don't agree w/ the assessment that the Circumfix drove him mad.

It is one of those things that I read in the next book's summary and I thought 'really? How could I have missed that'.  The other part that did the same this was Cnauir's 'death'.

[unJon]

@Kalbear and @.H. 

Of course the return to Momen was pre-meditated. That wasn't my point. My point is that the reason he returned was driven by emotion. Kel recognized he was going to be unable to let the empire collapse even though that would be the Shortest Path. The empire's existence was not relevant to the stated goal of defeating the Consult. But Kel couldn't bring himself to do it. So he planned a way to have the Ordeal carry on under Proyas so Kel could return to save Momen. 

There is a bunch of Kel POV setup that he has known for 20 years that following TTT would lead to the death of his wife and children and the destruction of his empire He knows that is the Shortest Path but can't follow it  

I think you all are doing some crazy gymnastics to try to say emotions aren't influencing Kel here