Bakker XLVI: Make Eärwa Great Again

[.H.]

26 minutes ago, unJon said:

Kel recognized he was going to be unable to let the empire collapse even though that would be the Shortest Path. The empire's existence was not relevant to the stated goal of defeating the Consult. But Kel couldn't bring himself to do it. So he planned a way to have the Ordeal carry on under Proyas so Kel could return to save Momen. 

I don't know that this is true though.  Is it plausible?  Yes, but I am not really convinced it's true.  The Empire was needed to bring forth the Great Ordeal, which seemingly is connected to "defeating" the Consult.  At least, prima facie.

I think the Empire failing was part of the plan all along.  Esmenet dying wasn't, maybe.  I still don't think it was love or emotion that brought him back to Momemn.  It's that there were tools there he still needed.  Presumably Esmenet, certainly Malowebi and plausibly Meppa.  I don't see that emotionally driven though, just pragmatic.

[unJon]

36 minutes ago, .H. said:

I don't know that this is true though.  Is it plausible?  Yes, but I am not really convinced it's true.  The Empire was needed to bring forth the Great Ordeal, which seemingly is connected to "defeating" the Consult.  At least, prima facie.

I think the Empire failing was part of the plan all along.  Esmenet dying wasn't, maybe.  I still don't think it was love or emotion that brought him back to Momemn.  It's that there were tools there he still needed.  Presumably Esmenet, certainly Malowebi and plausibly Meppa.  I don't see that emotionally driven though, just pragmatic.

How else do you interpret this passage, a Kel POV in TGO. First scene with him and Proyas.

Quote

For twenty years now, he had dwelt in the circuit of his father’s Thought, scrutinizing, refining, enacting and being enacted. He had known it would crash into ruin after his departure …

Known that his wife and children would die.

"What? What?”

“Men and all their generations—”

“No!”

“—all their aspirations—”

The Exalt-General bolted to his feet, flung his bowl across the chamber.

“Enough!”

No flesh could be sundered from its heart and survive. All of his empire was doomed—was disposable. Kellhus had known this and he had prepared.

No … It was the hazard of the converse that had eluded him …

“The World is a granary, Proyas …"

The fact that his heart would also crash into ruin.

“And we are the bread.”

 

 

 

Kel has long known the Empire served to launch TGO and would then collapse and kill his family. In other words, that is all part of the Plan of following the Shortest Path. The empire was disposable, but it broke Kel's heart.

He abandons TGO because his "heart" won't let him do otherwise than a ave his family. It's not calculated as a way to save some useful game pieces. Those pieces were disposable on The Shortest Path per Kel's own POV.

ETA: fix format and grammar

[aceluby]

1 hour ago, unJon said:

How else do you interpret this passage, a Kel POV in TGO. First scene with him and Proyas.

Kel has long known the Empire served to launch TGO and would then collapse and kill his family. In other words, that is all part of the Plan of following the Shortest Path. The empire was disposable, but it broke Kel's heart.

He abandons TGO because his "heart" won't let him do otherwise than a ave his family. It's not calculated as a way to save some useful game pieces. Those pieces were disposable on The Shortest Path per Kel's own POV.

ETA: fix format and grammar

There's nothing to say that the empire still won't fall, or that his entire family still won't die.  I'm not entirely convinced that him going back wasn't a part of Shortest Path.

[Kalbear]

2 hours ago, unJon said:

I think you all are doing some crazy gymnastics to try to say emotions aren't influencing Kel here  

That's good, because I didn't say it and don't think it. I think emotions are influencing him - but it isn't an emotional reaction that is driving him, and it certainly isn't spur of the moment. 

Quote

He abandons TGO because his "heart" won't let him do otherwise than a ave his family. It's not calculated as a way to save some useful game pieces. Those pieces were disposable on The Shortest Path per Kel's own POV.

That's certainly good textual analysis. A counterpoint is that not once does he mentions that he loves or cares about his wife and children. This is about Kellhus losing something of his. The phrasing is important here - it is not that he will miss their life, it is that his heart will crash into ruin. 

Similarly with Cnaiur, above - it isn't that he cares about Cnaiur - it is that he pities him. The emotion isn't about losing Cnaiur, it is about what it does to Kellhus. The same is true with Serwe - it doesn't matter that she died, it is about the emotion that rises in him. 

This makes it pretty weird, because there's very little indication that Kellhus thinks about other people other than semiautonomous resources, but it's also clear that their existence affects him in some way. But he doesn't care about them as other people - he only cares about them inasmuch as how they personally affect him. 

And as those of us who have been following the election understand, this isn't love - this is malignant narcissism. He doesn't care about these people in any way that considers them people. He barely cares about them as people care about their goldfish. He cares because their suffering affects him, and he doesn't want that. He wants to stop the suffering not because suffering of them is wrong but because their suffering makes him weaker.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

The phrasing is important here - it is not that he will miss their life, it is that his heart will crash into ruin.

But, if he cared nothing for these people, why would his heart crash into ruin? Everyone that argues against Kellhus being moved by emotions try to put a square peg in a round hole, in their analysis of the text. I see it as even as unhuman as the Dûnyain tried making them through breeding, underneath all of that training and genetics, still lies a human. A human, that no matter how hard they try they cannot totally control their emotions, no matter what they think. When a Dûnyain shows these signs they are deemed mad. Yet, every single Dûnyain interaction we have, we see that indeed, yes, they have emotions. For when they leave Ishual it is a huge shock to experience these emotions outside the controlled environment of Ishual.

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

But, if he cared nothing for these people, why would his heart crash into ruin?

Because narcissists see their family as extensions of themselves. If those people suffer and have a hard time it is an attack or suffering of them. They can't see it in any other way. 

4 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Everyone that argues against Kellhus being moved by emotions try to put a square peg in a round hole, in their analysis of the text. I see it as even as unhuman as the Dûnyain tried making them through breeding, underneath all of that training and genetics, still lies a human. A human, that no matter how hard they try they cannot totally control their emotions, no matter what they think. When a Dûnyain shows these signs they are deemed mad. Yet, every single Dûnyain interaction we have, we see that indeed, yes, they have emotions. For when they leave Ishual it is a huge shock to experience these emotions outside the controlled environment of Ishual.

Yes, and malignant narcissists are still human as well. They're sociopaths and are happy to do whatever to advance their cause, like rape people that they supposedly are friends with, but they're still human.

Kellhus as malignant narcissist (and the Dunyain breeding this) makes sense both from a psychological standpoint and from a narrative one. The Dunyain being bred into this incredibly small niche that allows them to be the most selfish and self-absorbed and thus be getting further and further away from the actual truth is a great narrative hook, especially if you buy (like I do) that Koringhus is the most right of everyone. In our world that kind of sociopathy makes sense from a survival and personal success arc, as everything is meaningless. In their world where things have meaning and everyone is a part of everyone else at a metaphysical planck scale, this is entirely disastrous for being able to determine the way of things. We see this in Moe and his vestigial emotions being unable to carry Water, we see this in Kellhus where he comically looks at very basic things and asks 'is this pity' like that idiot anime character looking at a butterfly and asking 'what kind of bird is this?'

The point isn't that they have emotions - it's that those emotions are stunted, tiny, and entirely self-centered. Love as a driving factor makes sense only if you actually care about others; Kellhus doesn't experience love for Esme and his children any more than he experiences love for a pair of comfortable shoes or his sword. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

8 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Because narcissists see their family as extensions of themselves. If those people suffer and have a hard time it is an attack or suffering of them. They can't see it in any other way. 

Yes, and malignant narcissists are still human as well. They're sociopaths and are happy to do whatever to advance their cause, like rape people that they supposedly are friends with, but they're still human.

Kellhus as malignant narcissist (and the Dunyain breeding this) makes sense both from a psychological standpoint and from a narrative one. The Dunyain being bred into this incredibly small niche that allows them to be the most selfish and self-absorbed and thus be getting further and further away from the actual truth is a great narrative hook, especially if you buy (like I do) that Koringhus is the most right of everyone. In our world that kind of sociopathy makes sense from a survival and personal success arc, as everything is meaningless. In their world where things have meaning and everyone is a part of everyone else at a metaphysical planck scale, this is entirely disastrous for being able to determine the way of things. We see this in Moe and his vestigial emotions being unable to carry Water, we see this in Kellhus where he comically looks at very basic things and asks 'is this pity' like that idiot anime character looking at a butterfly and asking 'what kind of bird is this?'

The point isn't that they have emotions - it's that those emotions are stunted, tiny, and entirely self-centered. Love as a driving factor makes sense only if you actually care about others; Kellhus doesn't experience love for Esme and his children any more than he experiences love for a pair of comfortable shoes or his sword. 

Well Enshoiya is a fine sword.

ETA: on a serious note, how does saving Esme and salvaging what he could help him in anyway? He wrote them off along time ago, like @unJon said.

[Gronzag]

14 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

We see this in Moe and his vestigial emotions being unable to carry Water,

Moe kills 1 or 2 skin spies bu shooting Water from his palm. And i think it is mentioned in one Xerius chapter that he is extremely powerful and that he would have been head of the Chisaurim if he wasn't born foreigner.

[Kalbear]

12 minutes ago, Gronzag said:

Moe kills 1 or 2 skin spies bu shooting Water from his palm. And i think it is mentioned in one Xerius chapter that he is extremely powerful and that he would have been head of the Chisaurim if he wasn't born foreigner.

That's what Xerius thinks - but the chapter from Kellhus indicates otherwise. I'm not sure about the shooting water from his palm, but that's still not close to what, say, Meppa showcases. 

ETA:  went back and read and you're right, ish. He pushes Serwe-spy aside with a blue flash that knocks her out but doesn't kill her, then does some martial arts with the other and then grabs it by the throat and cooks her with blue flame. It's pretty weaksauce compared to what we've seen other Cishaurim do.

[Darth Richard II]

11 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Your right. But, there are differing opinions that have textual evidence to back up both claims. More people than I feel that Kellhus is moved by emotions. 

Consider this, we know through Moe/Kellhus talk that Kellhus thought Moe would eventually go over to the Consult when he learned of his damnation. So, that begs the question, what makes Kellhus any different? He claims he is more, he's bought into the notion he is the savior. If Kellhus dwasnt driven by emotion, why would he even care to stop the Consult? If his only aim was to end damnation and the hell with everyone else he would just join up with the Consult. He doesn't though. He cares enough about humanity to fight the Consult and prevent the unleashing of the No-God. He wants to preserve life on Earwa. That to me is enough evidence right there that emotion fuels his goals. Not considering even more evidence that I could pile on top of that, which I have....ad nauseum. 

Yeah that came out more snarky then I meant. I get kinda pissy when people bring pu the different interpretations thing because I've seen some people interpret things just...wrong. Like, The Hobbit condones child sex trafficking wrong. So whenever I see anything suggesting ALL interpretations are valid(even if that's not what you were suggesting) I have a bad reaction.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

6 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Yeah that came out more snarky then I meant. I get kinda pissy when people bring pu the different interpretations thing because I've seen some people interpret things just...wrong. Like, The Hobbit condones child sex trafficking wrong. So whenever I see anything suggesting ALL interpretations are valid(even if that's not what you were suggesting) I have a bad reaction.

I understand. No, not all are valid, many many are not. I uneed stand where you're coming from. I just feel if you can interpret text differently than others and have some actual evidence to back your interpretation, than who is to say who is right or wrong? Matter of fact, I think authors probably enjoy their works being interpreted to differing degrees. I understood where your coming from @Darth Richard II.

[unJon]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

That's good, because I didn't say it and don't think it. I think emotions are influencing him - but it isn't an emotional reaction that is driving him, and it certainly isn't spur of the moment. 

That's certainly good textual analysis. A counterpoint is that not once does he mentions that he loves or cares about his wife and children. This is about Kellhus losing something of his. The phrasing is important here - it is not that he will miss their life, it is that his heart will crash into ruin. 

Similarly with Cnaiur, above - it isn't that he cares about Cnaiur - it is that he pities him. The emotion isn't about losing Cnaiur, it is about what it does to Kellhus. The same is true with Serwe - it doesn't matter that she died, it is about the emotion that rises in him. 

This makes it pretty weird, because there's very little indication that Kellhus thinks about other people other than semiautonomous resources, but it's also clear that their existence affects him in some way. But he doesn't care about them as other people - he only cares about them inasmuch as how they personally affect him. 

And as those of us who have been following the election understand, this isn't love - this is malignant narcissism. He doesn't care about these people in any way that considers them people. He barely cares about them as people care about their goldfish. He cares because their suffering affects him, and he doesn't want that. He wants to stop the suffering not because suffering of them is wrong but because their suffering makes him weaker.

I can dig this as another read of the text. This isn't what I was getting from your and @.H. prior posts, but could be my misreading. 

The thing is that this is sort of Baker's central conceit: Humans are all meat puppets driven by TDTCB. A "normal" human feels anguish so gies to save family and empire. Kel feels "his heart ruin" and goes to save his family and empire. Malignant narcissistic or not, there's no way to know at this point. Both are simply driven by TDTCB. 

Here is a litmus test for readers: was Kel running back to Momen in furtherance in TTT and/or the Shortest Path or not?

I say "not." He is compelled to go back by his heart. He makes plans to minimize the disruption to TTT by readying Proyas to lead without him. But overall, my take is the TTT would be better served but Kel remaining there and not running back to Momen. At least from what Kel knows. (It may turn out that saving Esmi or little psycho is critical to the TTT for reasons beyond the ambit of Kel's calculus.)

[Kalbear]

29 minutes ago, unJon said:

The thing is that this is sort of Baker's central conceit: Humans are all meat puppets driven by TDTCB. A "normal" human feels anguish so gies to save family and empire. Kel feels "his heart ruin" and goes to save his family and empire. Malignant narcissistic or not, there's no way to know at this point. Both are simply driven by TDTCB. 

Ah, but that's sort of the important point - TDTCB is what Kellhus (and the reader, and pre-enlightenment Koringhus) believes, but it almost certainly isn't true. We have ample evidence that causality is very, very odd and time is something of an illusion, as is actual free will. We also have evidence that what the 'heart' wants is beyond the fleshy bits, and is instead influenced massively by whatever the Zero-God and the enlightenment is. 

So reframe this: Kellhus is driven to save his heart from ruin not by TDTCB, but by his soul's connection to others. He hears the voices and the pity of Cnaiur and his connection to Serwe all with this connection. As does Koringhus. They rationalize it as TDTCB, but that's because that's the hammer that they have, and they only conceptualize everything as a grasp of Self. 

29 minutes ago, unJon said:

Here is a litmus test for readers: was Kel running back to Momen in furtherance in TTT and/or the Shortest Path or not?

I say "not." He is compelled to go back by his heart. He makes plans to minimize the disruption to TTT by readying Proyas to lead without him. But overall, my take is the TTT would be better served but Kel remaining there and not running back to Momen. At least from what Kel knows. (It may turn out that saving Esmi or little psycho is critical to the TTT for reasons beyond the ambit of Kel's calculus.)

Alternative: he's running back and he (and we) have no idea why, other than that was the only way that WLW had to send him there. So as completely random and unlikely an occurrence as it is to have Kellhus 'feel' something or be compelled to do something outside of his infernal logic, that had to happen to send him to the place where he could potentially be killed by the WLW. Because, again, free will is an illusion and everything has already happened.

[unJon]

12 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Ah, but that's sort of the important point - TDTCB is what Kellhus (and the reader, and pre-enlightenment Koringhus) believes, but it almost certainly isn't true. We have ample evidence that causality is very, very odd and time is something of an illusion, as is actual free will. We also have evidence that what the 'heart' wants is beyond the fleshy bits, and is instead influenced massively by whatever the Zero-God and the enlightenment is. 

So reframe this: Kellhus is driven to save his heart from ruin not by TDTCB, but by his soul's connection to others. He hears the voices and the pity of Cnaiur and his connection to Serwe all with this connection. As does Koringhus. They rationalize it as TDTCB, but that's because that's the hammer that they have, and they only conceptualize everything as a grasp of Self. 

Alternative: he's running back and he (and we) have no idea why, other than that was the only way that WLW had to send him there. So as completely random and unlikely an occurrence as it is to have Kellhus 'feel' something or be compelled to do something outside of his infernal logic, that had to happen to send him to the place where he could potentially be killed by the WLW. Because, again, free will is an illusion and everything has already happened.

Agree on the Zero God and Koringhus stuff. 

On your Alternative . . . it's really unsatisfying. But so is the Momen story line, which maybe means it fits?

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

19 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Because narcissists see their family as extensions of themselves. If those people suffer and have a hard time it is an attack or suffering of them. They can't see it in any other way. 

 

I love it. The Donald carries over into the Bakker threads...lol.

[.H.]

Quote

No flesh could be sundered from its heart and survive. All of his empire was doomed—was disposable. Kellhus had known this and he had prepared.

No … It was the hazard of the converse that had eluded him …

The fact that his heart would also crash into ruin.

@unJon this is a great passage, so thanks for bringing it up.  I have only read TGO fully once, so there is definitely stuff I have missed.

That said, this part kind of confuses me.  He says that he knows the Thought would collapse.  He knows that Esmenet and the kids would die.  He says he has prepared, but prepared what, himself?  Also, what is the "hazard of the converse" in this context really?  If I follow, it is that his heart will still crash to ruin, even though he has prepared.

We see in that last scene, it isn't really Kellhus that saves the day, it's little Kel though, right?  So, again, what is it that Kellhus "prepared?"  Or is he saying that he prepared to lose Esmenet and the kids?  Because that is what that last line in the above quote seems to say.  In this sense, it is plausible that he returned, expecting to find all things ruined and have his heart "crash" only to find that it didn't actually happen.

If he returned out of love, why does he scowl at Esmenet?  Why does he question what she has done?  Shouldn't he feel joy, or at least happiness that she is alive, rather than in an "expressionless regard?"  Confirmation bias probably, but it doesn't add up to me.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

5 hours ago, .H. said:

 

If he returned out of love, why does he scowl at Esmenet?  Why does he question what she has done?  Shouldn't he feel joy, or at least happiness that she is alive, rather than in an "expressionless regard?"  Confirmation bias probably, but it doesn't add up to me.

@H, he scowls because he sees Esme's betrayal, her murdering of Maithenet and her loss of faith and hatred she has of Kellhus. So, in the end...his heart is still crashed to ruin. So another point that Kelhus's emotions affect him. 

[Callan S.]

The scowling will just be the next fine tuning - dunyain blinking without intending to is considered catastrophic failure, one of them isn't going to scowl as any kind of direct reflection of any kind of internal emotional state.

I'm not sure why he went back - maybe the nuke was a game changer somehow. Maybe he went back to see if the empire had been nuked (destroyed ahead of schedule). But then he does other things while there rather than just get there, look and move on.

Personally I muse that he's sending the great ordeal to Golgotterath to act as the horde we see in Akka's dream, being lead into the golden chamber. Presumably to give rise to the no god. Because even if Kellhus is trying to save everyone, like his relationship with Esme shows, it seems to be by betraying the fuck out of everyone. Like a doctor with a god complex, who starts doing 'what's best' for everyone like they are all children and their intents don't matter. But bigger in scale and intensity. And who knows, maybe we'll agree with some of that 'what's best', by the end. Or maybe extinction will seem a better choice.

[lokisnow]

On 2/24/2017 at 4:58 AM, .H. said:

I feel that even if the return to Momemn was not premeditated (and like Kalbear, I do believe it was) even so, I do not think he returned solely for sentimental reasons.  If there is a sentiment, it isn't some abstract love, it's pragmatism.  Why does returning to Momemn somehow mean he really loves Esmenet?  Because he saves her?  Color me unconvinced.  He has been gas-lighting Esmenet since day one.  Esmenet was (is) little more than yet another tool for him.

Sure, it's plausible that he somehow thought it prudent to kill Cnaiür but pitied him and so spared him, but if so, it's also plausible that the reverse is true, that he emotionally felt he should kill Cnaiür and then rationally thought better of it.  He does feel a passion, but what?  He attempts to name if pity, but I have a great deal of doubt about that.  Lets look at that part:

First, Kellhus realizes he cannot read him and so, he draws his sword and commands him to kneel, in other words, if he cannot domiate him by reading, he will cow him by force.  Cnaiür calls his bluff though and bears his throat.  So, what is Kellhus feeling here?  He names it pity, but why would he pity him?  No, Kellhus is feeling frustration for the first time.  Something a prodigy like him never probably has.  Here he has read and dominated every person he has met and yet not this one.  He has been able to use force on anyone and yet not this one.  So, he feels pity toward him?  No, the passion comes first and it wasn't pity, the rational thought comes after, sparing him.

No, he realizes that Cnaiür's indomitability is exploitable, just as everything else is.

Let be honest though, almost everything with Kellhus is somewhat ambiguous.  Confirmation bias is going to be high in any case.

That is a mystery, but I don't think that emotions have to be the root cause.  Rather, Kellhus could be attempting to play all sides against the middle, vis-a-vis the gods and the Consult and The Voice, in the pursuit of his own interest.  In other words, Kellhus Ascendant.  In this case, I'd imagine Kellhus is attempting to become the God of Gods, or something close.

Another option is that Kellhus, who in Bakker's own words is a " cipher for modernity" represents an ascendant Humanism.  In other words, meaning generated not by some arcane supernatural ontology, no discorporate Cubit, but meaning for Humans by Humans.  In this way, he is not ending Damnation, a la the Consult, but rather, rewriting the rules of Damnation.  This could well be why it is important to end Zeüm, a last stronghold of old belief.

I don't know that this is really an emotional drive, or a pragmatic realization that the loop of Consult ascendant, Apocalypse, rise and repeat simply needs to be ended if anything will ever really be gained.

I think the quote is great because kellhus doesn't know what the emotion is other than that he knows it is external to his self. We readers assume he internally feels pity. Kellhus assumes something externally is moving him. A crucial distinction I think and interesting in light of TGO

RE moes power level. As a dunyain, what does it benefit him to maximize displays of power, he delivers a minimal effective dose to subdue the skin spies rather than go all "parabola of Scylla and Charybdis" on them and flooding the general vicinity with uncontrolled spurts of glowing watery third eye semen like most of cishaurim do. Also he uses his hands rather than relying on forehead ejaculations alone, which is interesting.

think of how a judo master could totally disable and defeat a Jujitsu master simply by stepping just so and... "throw" and with minimal movement and energy completely incapacity the other mainly by using their own energy and momentum against them. Sure maybe he can't bench 400lbs for ten reps like ole meppa, but he can still defeat the raw power 100% of the time with applied power.

Also TGO context: Moe inhumes the second skin spy but he carefully disables the first skin spy -- the serwe spy -- for precisely the right amount of time. This skin spy is still alive and still accompanying cnaiur because moe decided to spare her when she attacked him. Meaning cnaiur still walks moes conditioned path in TGO

 

 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

This skin spy is still alive and still accompanying cnaiur because moe decided to spare her when she attacked him. Meaning cnaiur still walks moes conditioned path in TGO.

Hmm, so you think Moe was behind Ss Serwe? I don't see how that's possible.