Question about Jamie being made a KG

[Stormking902]

Does the king have the right to force a knight to join the KG? I would assume NO, taking a vow like the one of the KG removes all of Jamies rights of receiving CR after Tywins death and from fathering children which is a huge deal. Couldnt Jamie just refuse Aerys order and still keep his head? It is his right as a noble to refuse. Or did Jamie accept Aerys offer because he wanted to be close to Cersie so it was the perfect oppurtunity to do so?. 

[kissdbyfire]

 

1 hour ago, Stormking902 said:

Does the king have the right to force a knight to join the KG? I would assume NO, taking a vow like the one of the KG removes all of Jamies rights of receiving CR after Tywins death and from fathering children which is a huge deal. Couldnt Jamie just refuse Aerys order and still keep his head? It is his right as a noble to refuse. Or did Jamie accept Aerys offer because he wanted to be close to Cersie so it was the perfect oppurtunity to do so?. 

Yes, but the whole thing was Cersei's idea.

ASoS, Jaime II

Jaime, meantime, had spent four years as squire to Ser Sumner Crakehall and earned his spurs against the Kingswood Brotherhood. But when he made a brief call at King's Landing on his way back to Casterly Rock, chiefly to see his sister, Cersei took him aside and whispered that Lord Tywin meant to marry him to Lysa Tully, had gone so far as to invite Lord Hoster to the city to discuss dower. But if Jaime took the white, he could be near her always. Old Ser Harlan Grandison had died in his sleep, as was only appropriate for one whose sigil was a sleeping lion. Aerys would want a young man to take his place, so why not a roaring lion in place of a sleepy one?
"Father will never consent," Jaime objected.
"The king won't ask him. And once it's done, Father can't object, not openly. Aerys had Ser Ilyn Payne's tongue torn out just for boasting that it was the Hand who truly ruled the Seven Kingdoms. The captain of the Hand's guard, and yet Father dared not try and stop it! He won't stop this, either."
"But," Jaime said, "there's Casterly Rock . . ."
"Is it a rock you want? Or me?"
He remembered that night as if it were yesterday. They spent it in an old inn on Eel Alley, well away from watchful eyes. Cersei had come to him dressed as a simple serving wench, which somehow excited him all the more. Jaime had never seen her more passionate. Every time he went to sleep, she woke him again. By morning Casterly Rock seemed a small price to pay to be near her always. He gave his consent, and Cersei promised to do the rest.
A moon's turn later, a royal raven arrived at Casterly Rock to inform him that he had been chosen for the Kingsguard. He was commanded to present himself to the king during the great tourney at Harrenhal to say his vows and don his cloak.

*the dingo ate my formatting*

[The Hoare]

Jaime could've refused, but I don't know how the king would react. A normal king would just accept it, but the Mad King could think it was a insult.

[Protagoras]

10 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

Jaime could've refused, but I don't know how the king would react. A normal king would just accept it, but the Mad King could think it was a insult.

Its an insult regardless, but some kings can handle this better than others. 

After all, if you give someone an honor you want said honor to be accepted. 

[JonSnow4President]

2 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

Its an insult regardless, but some kings can handle this better than others. 

After all, if you give someone an honor you want said honor to be accepted. 

I'm not sure it would be regarded as an insult if done correctly (I want to have children and further my dynasty yo!) to a semi-reasonable ruler for someone who is the primary heir to an incredibly powerful Lordship.  If Tyrion was the eldest and Jaime refused, there's a little more of an insult there. 

As far as could the King force it as the OP asks, well, the answer is legally no (oaths sworn at swordpoint are not considered valid), but justice in this universe is often determined by the position in power rather than the letter of the law.  If Aerys maintained his kingship, Jaime would not have any recourse, and could effectively be forced into it (not that he was).  It'd be incredibly dumb on the King's part (making an enemy of one of his closest protector's) on top of being against the laws of the land. But it could be done (with possible war with Tywin and whoever else jumped in to protect Lord's rights as a consequence). 

[The Fresh PtwP]

My biggest confusion on this is how did Cersei convince Aerys to do this? She seems pretty confident she can...

[Lady bonehead]

46 minutes ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

My biggest confusion on this is how did Cersei convince Aerys to do this? She seems pretty confident she can...

I'm not sure it was Cersei's idea to begin with.  Possibly Varys?

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

My biggest confusion on this is how did Cersei convince Aerys to do this? She seems pretty confident she can...

And apparently she did it. Did she whisper something in Aerys' ears? Did she use other means? If she did pull it off, I do hope we find out how exactly. 

[Lady Lia]

All Cersei really needed to do was give Aerys the idea; he'd jump on it as a means to humiliate Tywin.

"Oh, my brave brother Jaime dreams of joining the Kingsguard, but Father would NEVER allow it. Oh! Forgive me, Your Grace, I did not see you standing there."

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, Lady Lia said:

All Cersei really needed to do was give Aerys the idea; he'd jump on it as a means to humiliate Tywin.

"Oh, my brave brother Jaime dreams of joining the Kingsguard, but Father would NEVER allow it. Oh! Forgive me, Your Grace, I did not see you standing there."

 

I can totally see that scene!

And I agree, as stupid as Cersei can be at times, she can also be very crafty at manipulating people. 

[The Fresh PtwP]

30 minutes ago, Lady Lia said:

All Cersei really needed to do was give Aerys the idea; he'd jump on it as a means to humiliate Tywin.

"Oh, my brave brother Jaime dreams of joining the Kingsguard, but Father would NEVER allow it. Oh! Forgive me, Your Grace, I did not see you standing there."

I hope it was as innocent as that...

[Stormking902]

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

Yes, but the whole thing was Cersei's idea.

ASoS, Jaime II

Jaime, meantime, had spent four years as squire to Ser Sumner Crakehall and earned his spurs against the Kingswood Brotherhood. But when he made a brief call at King's Landing on his way back to Casterly Rock, chiefly to see his sister, Cersei took him aside and whispered that Lord Tywin meant to marry him to Lysa Tully, had gone so far as to invite Lord Hoster to the city to discuss dower. But if Jaime took the white, he could be near her always. Old Ser Harlan Grandison had died in his sleep, as was only appropriate for one whose sigil was a sleeping lion. Aerys would want a young man to take his place, so why not a roaring lion in place of a sleepy one?
"Father will never consent," Jaime objected.
"The king won't ask him. And once it's done, Father can't object, not openly. Aerys had Ser Ilyn Payne's tongue torn out just for boasting that it was the Hand who truly ruled the Seven Kingdoms. The captain of the Hand's guard, and yet Father dared not try and stop it! He won't stop this, either."
"But," Jaime said, "there's Casterly Rock . . ."
"Is it a rock you want? Or me?"
He remembered that night as if it were yesterday. They spent it in an old inn on Eel Alley, well away from watchful eyes. Cersei had come to him dressed as a simple serving wench, which somehow excited him all the more. Jaime had never seen her more passionate. Every time he went to sleep, she woke him again. By morning Casterly Rock seemed a small price to pay to be near her always. He gave his consent, and Cersei promised to do the rest.
A moon's turn later, a royal raven arrived at Casterly Rock to inform him that he had been chosen for the Kingsguard. He was commanded to present himself to the king during the great tourney at Harrenhal to say his vows and don his cloak.

*the dingo ate my formatting*

Thank you

[Stormking902]

4 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

My biggest confusion on this is how did Cersei convince Aerys to do this? She seems pretty confident she can...

Great question I was wondering the same thing, its not like Cersie is in any position to whisper anything in Aerys ear let alone hey my brother would make a great KG. 

[Gertrude]

Perhaps Jaime himself made it known that he was seeking the spot. I'm fuzzy on it too, but I don't think it would be hard to have this information reach Aerys' ear from either Cersei or Jaime.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

2 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Great question I was wondering the same thing, its not like Cersie is in any position to whisper anything in Aerys ear let alone hey my brother would make a great KG. 

She sure was in a position to do so, as she was living at court in KL with Tywin. That's exactly why she concocted this selfish idiocy of a plan, so that Jaime too could be living at court close to her. Except as soon as it happened, Tywin flipped out and went back to CR with Cersei in tow.

[Protagoras]

15 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

I'm not sure it would be regarded as an insult if done correctly (I want to have children and further my dynasty yo!) to a semi-reasonable ruler for someone who is the primary heir to an incredibly powerful Lordship.  If Tyrion was the eldest and Jaime refused, there's a little more of an insult there. 

If done correctly you try to make sure that 1. The person is actually interested, 2. The person can be considered loyal and you have reason to believe that he will protect you at all costs, 3. The person has enough skill and 4. The person doesn´t have powerful relatives that really, really want said person to do something else instead. Aerys nomination of Jaime is not only a violation of no 4, but is also more or less violating no 2 considering the less than good relationship Aerys had with the lannisters at that time. 

I think its likely that former kingsguards have mostly consisted of either second sons or minor nobles. Aka, the people who have little to lose in comparison what they gain by the honor involved. However, if you notice that one or several candidates tell you no, then it can be seen as an silent assault of the monarchy since people seems to be less willing to swear their lives to the king in the same way that they did in the past.

Then again, one or maybe two "No" is not a problem. It actually work alot like friendships. Sometimes, people won´t have time to spend with you regardless of how strong the friendship is, but when someone is almost always "busy" you know that the friendship is low/gone, since you are not very prioritized.  

[Danelle]

15 hours ago, Lady Lia said:

All Cersei really needed to do was give Aerys the idea; he'd jump on it as a means to humiliate Tywin.

"Oh, my brave brother Jaime dreams of joining the Kingsguard, but Father would NEVER allow it. Oh! Forgive me, Your Grace, I did not see you standing there."

This is probably how it went.

All Cersei had to do was to provide Aerys with another excuse to offend his Hand.

[LordMiddleFinger]

I doubt that a King can force the son of the richest and probably the most powerful Lord in Westeros to join the Kingsguard. Even if he could he should think twice before doing that because: 1. It could start a war with the young man's very powerful father. 2. It could start an actual rebellion since the other Great Lords might think that if he can do that to the most powerful Lord of Westeros, The King ( who is bat-shit crazy ) can do it all of them too. So if other Great Lords join forces with Tywin it's a BIG problem for the crown.

 Also i imagine had Jaime refused he would've been executed on the spot. So definitely a Rebellion would start. 

[Stormking902]

35 minutes ago, LordMiddleFinger said:

I doubt that a King can force the son of the richest and probably the most powerful Lord in Westeros to join the Kingsguard. Even if he could he should think twice before doing that because: 1. It could start a war with the young man's very powerful father. 2. It could start an actual rebellion since the other Great Lords might think that if he can do that to the most powerful Lord of Westeros, The King ( who is bat-shit crazy ) can do it all of them too. So if other Great Lords join forces with Tywin it's a BIG problem for the crown.

 Also i imagine had Jaime refused he would've been executed on the spot. So definitely a Rebellion would start. 

Even Aerys wasnt that bat shit crazy to murder Jamie for refusing a position in the KG, not only would tywin go to war EVERYONE would join him even the Tyrells. You cant just murder a noble for no reason especially the heir to CR, the only reason Aerys had allies after what he did to the Starks was because Brandons idiotic plan of telling prince Rhegar to come out and "die" which is treason. 

[LordMiddleFinger]

19 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Even Aerys wasnt that bat shit crazy to murder Jamie for refusing a position in the KG, not only would tywin go to war EVERYONE would join him even the Tyrells. You cant just murder a noble for no reason especially the heir to CR, the only reason Aerys had allies after what he did to the Starks was because Brandons idiotic plan of telling prince Rhegar to come out and "die" which is treason. 

 

"the only reason Aerys had allies after what he did to the Starks was because Brandons idiotic plan of telling prince Rhegar to come out and "die" which is treason. "

And after this he brutally murders Barndon's father, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, before he kills Brandon as well... in a room filled with High Lords. The only reason he still had allies was because the Tyrells are idiots and they probably thought that once the Crown starts winning, that Tywin would join them. They were wrong. Dorne supported him because Aerys was holding their princess hostage. They really had no choice but to side with the Crown.