Quellon Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 Why are there such clear similarities between BR and Odin? Is this deliberate or just a subtle nod to Norse mythology? For those who need it all spelled out: both have only one eye and both are connected with ravens. Odin has a raven while Bloodraven...well, just mentioning his name is enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 Bloodraven has some aspects of Odin, but Jon also has many. George has said in interviews that he uses things like religion, myths, other fantasies, etc as inspiration, but he mixes it up into something that is his own. There are oodles of Norse, Celtic, Egyptian, Greek, etc symbols and myths within ASOIAF. It is actually quit fun to decode it all. For the one eyed thing, it mostly points to Jon constantly told he "knows nothing," then he almost loses his eye and then almost loses his life, which parallels Odin in his quest for knowledge. Also, Jon has ravens and wolves, a grey horse, a bow/archery, and a spear , as Odin does. There is a lot more than this, and many interesting posters here has written about the parallels, so hopefully they will be chiming in soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 @Quellon If you're interested in Norse mythology, @Blue Tiger is the most clued-up person I know in that respect. He recently started a thread 'The Amber Compendium' in which he investigates several Norse mythological motifs which GRRM has reworked, and unpacks them. Check it out: He also has his own bilingual blog (English-Polish): https://theambercompendium.wordpress.com/ And yes, to answer your question, as our central greenseer archetype Bloodraven is certainly an Odin analog, if not the Odinesque figure -- although there are also shades of Odin in many others, including Bran most notably as Bloodraven's protege. And no, the 'nod' to Norse mythology is anything but 'subtle'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingmonkey Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Quellon said: Why are there such clear similarities between BR and Odin? Is this deliberate or just a subtle nod to Norse mythology? For those who need it all spelled out: both have only one eye and both are connected with ravens. Odin has a raven while Bloodraven...well, just mentioning his name is enough. Perhaps the most pertinent link is Odin's self-sacrifice, where to win power and knowledge he suspended himself in a tree: Quote Know I that I hung upon a wind-swept tree nine full nights spear-wounded and given to Odin my self to myself upon that tree which nobody knows what roots it rises from. - Odin's Rune-song, from the Hávamál I wonder what's under Bloodraven's tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damon_Tor Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 5 hours ago, Quellon said: Why are there such clear similarities between BR and Odin? Is this deliberate or just a subtle nod to Norse mythology? For those who need it all spelled out: both have only one eye and both are connected with ravens. Odin has a raven while Bloodraven...well, just mentioning his name is enough. Both were sacrificed to a tree to gain knowledge. Yes, the parallels are pretty clear I do wonder how far GRRM will wind up taking these inspirations, because Bloodraven->Odin is far from the only one. The ultra-potent Lord Frey, the guy from the family that really likes names that start with "Tyr" who gets his hand cut off, the "Storm Lord" who swings around a warhammer with astounding strength. But yeah, Bloodraven is probably the clearest analog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amris Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 There is the excellent blogspot of Dorian the Historian covering the topic of Norse mythology in ASoIaF. http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quellon Posted January 30, 2017 Author Share Posted January 30, 2017 Thank you all, I have seldom gotten such positive and helpful responses to a thread I started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 On 1/29/2017 at 5:29 PM, ravenous reader said: @Quellon If you're interested in Norse mythology, @Blue Tiger is the most clued-up person I know in that respect. He recently started a thread 'The Amber Compendium' in which he investigates several Norse mythological motifs which GRRM has reworked, and unpacks them. And yes, to answer your question, as our central greenseer archetype Bloodraven is certainly an Odin analog, if not the Odinesque figure -- although there are also shades of Odin in many others, including Bran most notably as Bloodraven's protege. And no, the 'nod' to Norse mythology is anything but 'subtle'! I totally agree that George is anything but subtle when he uses historic inspiration. However, he rarely does a perfect one-to-one comparison, or if he does, he changes the ending because then readers would know what lies ahead because they already know "the story". He says so himself. In general to the OP: ADDING: I have not seen anyone make these comparisons before. If they have, my apologies and feel free to share. I imagine someone else may have found this as well??? I dunno Wait!!! I just did a search using a different phrase and it seems one other poster on the threads made at least part of this connection... SweetSunRay! Shoulda known Read Here I admit that I am not as versed in Greek/Roman mythology as I was back in middle school/high school (that was when Norse myth took over in my head), so I have the basic information to my comparisons, to which I discovered while writing up my Nymeria thread last year. I did not list the comparison there because I did not want to hijack my own thread with OT info (and my thread was long enough already ). Anyway, this will be the first spot where I really try to pull it all together, so additional info from others is appreciated. That said, Brynden Rivers in life was very Odinesque, but I don't think he is the Odin figure anymore, His arc changed, just as Jon's probably will when he comes back. BR lost his eye and gained some sort of (terrible) knowledge. It appears that when Bloodraven went 'under the sea' (into the far north), his archetype changed, and it seems to have changed into a Hypnos/Thanatos god instead, keeping in mind that the gods flip a coin when a Targ is born, and they are often two sides of the same coin. Twins in a way. (by the way, Thanatos is the Greek name, and the Roman name is Mors!) Much of the comparison is fairly self explanatory, but you can see the general inspiration George uses: Hypnos (/ˈhɪpnɒs/; Greek: Ὕπνος, "sleep") lived next to his twin brother, Thanatos (Θάνατος, "death personified") in the underworld. As we know, the underworld in ASOIAF is mostly the north, and far north 'under the sea'. We see that Bran has a throne made for him, and there are other children in the other cave room that are hooked up the weirnet as well. We first meet Bloodraven in a dream. Hypnos is pictured as having a winged headpiece. Here, and here. This could translate to a few different things in ASOIAF. Hypnos' mother was Nyx (Νύξ, "Night"), the deity of Night, and his father was Erebus, the deity of Darkness. Nyx was a dreadful and powerful goddess, and even Zeus feared entering her realm. Brynden is the son of Aegon IV, or, Aegon the Unworthy Melissa Blackwood is his mother, and that house has a dead weirwood on their estate. Hypnos' three brothers (according to Hesiod and Hyginus) or sons/children (according to Ovid) were known as the Oneiroi, which is Greek for "dreams." Morpheus is the Winged God of Dreams and can take human form in dreams. Phobetor is the personification of nightmares and created frightening dreams, he could take the shape of any animal including bears and tigers. Phantasos was known for creating fake dreams full of illusions. Morpheus, Phobetor, and Phantasos appeared in the dreams of kings. The Oneiroi, his children, lived in a cave at the shores of the Ocean in the West. The cave had two gates with which to send people dreams; one made from ivory and the other from buckhorn. However, before they could do their work and send out the dreams, first Hypnos had to put the recipient to sleep. So we have children of the forest living in the caves that 'work' for their god. Sounds familiar. We have the river that runs through the cave to where??? They have to put recipients to sleep. Alaso familiar, and could be the inspiration to the weirwood paste Bran has to eat. Just an idea. THE ONEIROI were the dark-winged spirits (daimones) of dreams which emerged each night like a flock of bats from their cavernous home in Erebos--the land of eternal darkness beyond the rising sun. The Oneiroi passed through one of two gates (pylai). The first of these, made of horn, was the source of the prophetic god-sent dreams, while the other, constructed of ivory, was the source of dreams which were false and without meaning. The term for nightmare was melas oneiros (black dream). In addition to the flocks of ravens, and the CotF, Bran also finds a huge dragon skeleton at the back of the cave that calls "gigantic bats"! (this also parallels Viserion over in Essos at this same time) According to some the leader of the Oneiroi was Morpheus, a god who appeared in the dreams of kings in the guise of a man bearing messages from the gods. Could Brynden Rivers abandoned the Watch because of a message he received? Many here theorize yes. Hypnos/Thanatos live in a big cave, which the river Lethe ("Forgetfulness") comes from and where night and day meet. His bed is made of ebony, on the entrance of the cave grow a number of poppies and other hypnotic plants. Weirwood thrones. We see weirwood and ebony dualistically several times in the story. George could have just used the weirwood property in place of the ebony in this case to be consistent with the rest of ASOIAF. Weirwood (Jojen?) paste. Remember how Bran felt after he started to eat the paste. Trippy would describe it best, I think. Poppies were associated with both Hypnos and Thanatos because of their hypnogogic traits and the eventual death engendered by overexposure to them. This also sounds a little like Sweetrobin, but I don't know that George is going to use this on SR literally. He may change that ending for SR, too. No light and no sound would ever enter his grotto. We read about this time and again in Bran's chapters when he explains how dark it is in the cave, and how flames don't last long, and daylight cannot reach inside, etc. In both stories, darkness is a key element to the characters within. I won't list them all out, but we know how dark the cave is, and also how darkness seems to "waken" the warg powers within the little Starklings all over Planetos. He is said to be a calm and gentle god, as he helps humans in need and, due to their sleep, owns half of their lives. However, if we go back to the Targ two sided coin, we know that Thanatos was thus regarded as merciless and indiscriminate, hated by - and hateful towards — mortals and gods alike. Brynden Rivers was always morally ambiguous in life. He was full of duty, but at the expense of some questionable practices. Battle of Redgrass field, and the Aeny Blackfyre/Great Council debacle that got him sent to the wall. Also, those pesky "sinister sorcerer" rumors that spread like the Spring Sickness throughout Westeros. Thanatos could occasionally be outwitted, a feat that the sly King Sisyphus of Korinth twice accomplished. When it came time for Sisyphus to die, Zeus ordered Thanatos to chain Sisyphus up in Tartarus. Sisyphus cheated death by tricking Thanatos into his own shackles, thereby prohibiting the demise of any mortal while Thanatos was so enchained. Eventually Ares, the bloodthirsty god of war, grew frustrated with the battles he incited since neither side suffered any casualties. He released Thanatos and handed his captor over to the god. King Sisyphus seems to be a comparison the the Blackfyres that Bloodraven was always battling down. Three times, actually. The "He released" in the Thanatos story compares to Aegon IV releasing Bloodraven to take up the black for life, where after a time, Bloodraven left the watch and became a "god". And we have this: "And there the children of dark Night have their dwellings, Sleep and Death, awful gods. The glowing Sun never looks upon them with his beams, neither as he goes up into heaven, nor as he comes down from heaven. And the former of them roams peacefully over the earth and the sea's broad back and is kindly to men; but the other has a heart of iron, and his spirit within him is pitiless as bronze: whomsoever of men he has once seized he holds fast: and he is hateful even to the deathless gods." -Hesiod, Theogony 758 ff, trans. Evelyn-White, Greek epic 8th or 7th century BC Ok. I have dragged on enough with this comparison, and I hope my handwriting is legible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quellon Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share Posted February 3, 2017 Thanks, that was a very good and interesting analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luddagain Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 I think the Odin/Bloodraven parralels are far, far more. Firstly Odin was a complex god - both wizard AND warrior and advisor and all seeing all knowing. This is pretty much Bloodraven. He is depicted with a wand - he was into magic big time. He was a shape shifter into MANY animals. He lost his eye. He hung about in trees. This is all Bloodraven His animals were the raven and the wolf. His sons were Balder and Hodr (In some accounts). I think it more than possible that all the Starks are descendent of Bloodraven (thus sons/daughters of Odin). After all we can assume that when the story starts Lynarra Stark (if alive) would be about 55 (or a little younger). Her mother Arya Flint would be about 72.Blood raven would have been about 25-30 years older than Master Aemon, so we can assume he was about 130 years old. In other words Arya Flint could well be the daughter of Blood raven, just after he ceased being Lord Commander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 Actually, this is not all accurate. Sorry, but a few nitpicks. 16 hours ago, Luddagain said: I think the Odin/Bloodraven parralels are far, far more. Firstly Odin was a complex god - both wizard AND warrior and advisor and all seeing all knowing. Odin was not all seeing and all knowing. He actually went to other gods and "magic peoples" such as the Völva to help him gain knowledge because he was always in search of answers. You go searching for knowledge because it is something you lack and want to have. That is why one of the names for Odin is the Wanderer. Bloodraven only did any wandering after he left the NW and went off on his own north of the wall. As I mentioned earlier, this was a transition time for Brynden/Bloodraven. He seems to have morphed from one "god" into another. Jon (and Bran) both did their own wanderings in search of knowledge, and both also found it north of the wall. Heck, even Daenerys did her own wandering in the story to gain knowledge. I think George is using the concept for several characters which also include Sansa, Arya, Brienne. Quote This is pretty much Bloodraven. He is depicted with a wand No. Odin did not have a wand (that I have ever read about), but he had a spear named Gungnir. Odin did have a special bow named Ichaival as well. The Völva Odin went to, who were healers, prophetic, and practiced healing and 'magic', they carried wands. There have been several ancient Völva graves in real life that were unearthed with wands in them. Bloodraven did not have any wands or spears, but he was known for his bows/archery = Raven's Teeth. Jon has a rather large connection to bows and archery throughout, including with Ygritte and defending the Wall, and also requiring daily archery training for all NW brothers once he becomes LC. He is "bringing the bow back" in the story because it is a lost skill. While on the Cinnamon Wind, Sam has to use a bow again and he thinks back to Jon and how Jon required the training at the wall. Personally, I think Jon is reforming a new version of the Raven's Teeth and we will see some obsidian arrowheads in use. Jon also has a spear like Odin, only not a literal translation, but a version of. Jon has Val, a "spearwife", and she also has all the symbolism of a Völva as well- like, a lot! And there is a ton of retelling of Nymeria and her great migration into Dorne, and what we see happening with Jon and Val on page now... and how the spear joining the sun was a parallel symbol in that story. But that is another topic and thread entirely. Bran also has a spear, but not a literal one. Bran has his girl crush Meera, who carries a spear. Quote - he was into magic big time. "big time" is a rather big claim. He did rely on the magic talents of others, mostly women, sometimes Loki, to do the actual magicking for him. In Viking society, to practice magic was unmanly... even for a warrior-poet god such as Odin. He did this once and was mocked by Loki (of all the gods) for being "ergi". We don't see this with Bloodraven. As I mentioned above, BR was accused of practicing "sinister sorcery", and messing around with his sister Shiera, but he is not mocked, he is actually feared for it. It is Jon that is accepting of the Free Folk with their female warrior leaders, woods witches and the likes of Morna (man or woman, whichever Jon preferred), and also by promoting Satin as his steward, and allowing woman and girls into NW battle roles. All of these things went against what was "normal" for the thought process of many NW brothers and for Westeros in general. I can't think of an example that Bran compares to in this case. Maybe Meera because Bran has to rely on her often and when she climbs the wall, he thinks of how brave she is. I dunno, just a guess. Quote He was a shape shifter into MANY animals. He lost his eye. He hung about in trees. This is all Bloodraven As it is Bran and Jon as well, which is why I don't think BR is the Odin image in the ASOIAF story. Odin is spread out amongst a few characters in their own ways. We are almost at the end of Bloodraven's life, so we have had time to see his change and transition from one thing to the next. We are in the process of the with Bran and Jon now. Bran 'shapeshifts' into Hodor, Summer and the ravens. Odin and Loki both "change" into other humans, including females, and that is a link to Bran as well. Bran is a little naughty in doing this even though he should know better by now. Starting with Luwin telling Bran something along the lines of Hodor is not a horse to be ridden (teased? I can't remember exactly) Jon, well, he slipped into Ghost a few times while asleep, but there is that very real chance his first conscious warg will happen at the mutiny stabbing. Jon is about to have his transition because not every character develops at the same rate. Eyes- Jon also had an encounter (at the end of his wanderings) that almost took his eye with a symbolic 'blood eagle', and this was at the same time where in the next chapter he realizes and admits to the NW that the wildlings are not the "big baddies" that everyone south of the wall has been taught. Jon gained his knowledge with his eye, as BR did on the Redgrass field. Also, this was a 'smaller' sacrifice, or a step one sacrifice, for Jon. His big one was his mutiny stabbing. This also compares to Odin who had many sacrifices in his time. First one eye, then the other, and he sacrificed himself to himself when he learned what the runes were... and Jon was stabbed after a reading as well. Also also, and this compares to both the wandering and the sacrifice for knowledge aspect, but how many times are we told in the story, "you know nothing, Jon Snow." That means something. Jon's entire arc is a quest for a great knowledge which will probably help save all of humanity. That is pretty big. Trees- Yes, we see Bloodraven actually as half a tree, and Bran starting to work his way into the weirnet and he has a throne now... but again, we have Jon with his mother as KotLT, Val with weirwood symbolism at one point, Ghost who Jon compares to the weirwoods, and he and Ghost are "one"... and chances are high that we will see a weirwood in use when Jon is "dead". Quote His animals were the raven and the wolf. Yes. The same with Bran (Summer and later skinchanged birds at the cave, and Bloodraven all along). And the same with Jon, who has his 'spear' and bow, and has his wolf in Ghost, and his raven, Mormont's raven (and a few others along the way). Bloodraven 'is' a raven, and he has his wolf in the form of Bran... for now, because there is a real chance BR will do some things that are rather dark and go against what Bran sees as "good", and Bran could break away from BR for a number of reasons. Whether that means Bran leaves the cave or gives BR his final death is yet to be seen. Come on TWOW! I think the Bran chapters are what I will turn to first Quote His sons were Balder and Hodr (In some accounts). Jon and Bran again. Jon has Sam, who is a close Baldr comparison. Bran has Hodr, because Hodor. I can't think of a BR comparison except maybe Bran and company, or Coldhands, or Leaf and Snowylocks, or the other CotF that are in the other cave room that try to cry out to Bran??? Who did you have in mind? Quote I think it more than possible that all the Starks are descendent of Bloodraven (thus sons/daughters of Odin). After all we can assume that when the story starts Lynarra Stark (if alive) would be about 55 (or a little younger). Her mother Arya Flint would be about 72.Blood raven would have been about 25-30 years older than Master Aemon, so we can assume he was about 130 years old. In other words Arya Flint could well be the daughter of Blood raven, just after he ceased being Lord Commander. Interesting theory. Hopefully She Wolves of Winterfell sheds some much needed light on the north and Winterfell to help close in some of these story holes we readers crave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luddagain Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 How on earth can you see Sam as a Baldur comparison. Baldur was beautiful, brave and adored.Sam is fat and a coward and loved by few. Also Bran is loved by Old Nan ie Nanna the wife of Baldur. Sam has no connection with Old Nan. Sam has never been in a cave (aka underworld) . Sam has never met Hodr, while Bran is closely connected with him. The Old Norse equivalent of Sam (if there is one is Bragi. One of Odin's names is "god of magic." He is also a mighty shape shifter - which Bran certainly WILL become but not yet as varied as Bloodraven. Jon can warg wolves but no other animals. Arya and Bran are the two with major shape shifting abilities.- I will grant you the wand is not specifically associated with Odin but types of wood most certainly are. Not that i am a follower but quick googling will show that modern neo pagans associate Odin with wands. Now since I think GRRM started out telling the tale of Ragnarök, set in UK during the Wars of the Roses, In am inclined to the view that his inspiration comes from Norse Mythology Welsh mythology (because of the Welsh role in the WoR) and Britain more generally. It is of course hardly surprising if there are parallels with Greek and Hindu and Persian mythology because they all draw from the same Indo European myths, together with more ancient religions. Now in the story of Ragnarok two sons of Odin survive to the new world and we can more or less assume that one of this takes on the role of Odin. One of his sons probably is Baldur who returns from the dead. it certainly seems as if Bloodraven (Odin) is passing his mantle to Bran, so I rather think he may become the new Odin - or perhaps he will return to Winterfell representing Baldur and some other "son" will take over the role. Perhaps indeed Bran MUST escape the underworld to return "Summer" and thus defeat the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 22 minutes ago, Luddagain said: How on earth can you see Sam as a Baldur comparison. Baldur was beautiful, brave and adored.Sam is fat and a coward and loved by few. Also Bran is loved by Old Nan ie Nanna the wife of Baldur. Sam has no connection with Old Nan. Sam has never been in a cave (aka underworld) . Sam has never met Hodr, while Bran is closely connected with him. The Old Norse equivalent of Sam (if there is one is Bragi. Because Baldr is the "familiar" to Jon as Hodr is to Bran. George is not literal and does not do a one-to-one copy from other sources into his. He says he uses them as inspiration, but twists them into his own. See my first post in this thread for George;s response to this idea. ANd physical looks are not always a deciding factor for inspiration. Most of the time the actions or intentions are. LIke for Dany, her inspiration I am sure was not a elfishly attractive 13 year old with silver hair and purple eyes. But the actions and intentions of the inspiration character are the important part. Baldr is like Sam, and Nanna is like Gilley. Hodr is like Hodr, and Nanna is like Old Nan. One story of Baldr and Hodr has the brothers fight over Nanna. I don't see this happening, but instead, I see Nanna being split into two aspects of the same and one is with Jon and one with Bran. Two sides of the same coin. Sam and Old Nan are both "wisdom givers" to Jon/Bran when thye tell their copious amounts of tales and histories to both of them. There is more, but I have to run out for a while. Bran and Jon are brothers, in many tales Baldr and Hodr are brothers. Both have an interest in a "nan" character. Quote One of Odin's names is "god of magic." He is also a mighty shape shifter - which Bran certainly WILL become but not yet as varied as Bloodraven. Jon can warg wolves but no other animals. Arya and Bran are the two with major shape shifting abilities.- Correct. Odin has many names and many talents, but we are not going to get all of them in one direct to page character from mythology. George has spread Odin out among a few characters depending on name, talent, location, etc. Jon just happens to fit most comparisons more consistently. Quote I will grant you the wand is not specifically associated with Odin but types of wood most certainly are. Not that i am a follower but quick googling will show that modern neo pagans associate Odin with wands. Because they are easier to handle than spears, not considered weapons and therefore allowed more places, are made and sold online much easier than spears, and wands are allowed into Renaissance Festivals. In the actual myths, they are very different from each other in almost every way. George is not using a modern day take on any myth or practice. His shit is O-L-D Quote Now since I think GRRM started out telling the tale of Ragnarök, set in UK during the Wars of the Roses, In am inclined to the view that his inspiration comes from Norse Mythology Welsh mythology (because of the Welsh role in the WoR) and Britain more generally. Agreed. And Celtic mythology as well. But that does not mean it will end the same in ASOIAF as it does in the sources, or else that would be George literally ripping off someone's work and taking all the credit for his own. Quote It is of course hardly surprising if there are parallels with Greek and Hindu and Persian mythology because they all draw from the same Indo European myths, together with more ancient religions. I agree. It seems George has mapped out where his real world inspirations are going to play out in the different parts of his world. There are myths from all over in ASOIAF. Same for actual religions. Quote Now in the story of Ragnarok two sons of Odin survive to the new world and we can more or less assume that one of this takes on the role of Odin. One of his sons probably is Baldur who returns from the dead. it certainly seems as if Bloodraven (Odin) is passing his mantle to Bran, so I rather think he may become the new Odin - or perhaps he will return to Winterfell representing Baldur and some other "son" will take over the role. Could be, but John also has two "bastard" sons that he can raise to follow him as well. Monster and Aemon Steelsong. If you see Bran leaving the cave, may I ask under what type of circumstances? I would like to think on this more, but I have a basketball game I am about to be late to Quote Perhaps indeed Bran MUST escape the underworld to return "Summer" and thus defeat the others. I always wondered if that was why Bran named Summer, "Summer", just for that reason. Thwarting the long night and putting order back to the seasons. Just an idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 On 2/4/2017 at 5:04 PM, Luddagain said: I will grant you the wand is not specifically associated with Odin but types of wood most certainly are. Bloodraven's intimate association with the tree more than any other character except for Bran is emblematic of Odin hanging himself on Yggdrasil the world tree around which the entire Norse cosmology is based and constructed-- the import of which @The Fattest Leech is minimizing to a certain extent in the argument that Bloodraven is not the central Odin figure, with which I respectfully disagree. Of all the characters associated with trees, Bloodraven is the only one physically connected to the tree to the point where he is obscenely incapacitated -- pinioned and riddled through by the penetrating roots (akin to how Odin was pierced through by a sword, and not coincidentally a sexual metaphor) -- you don't get more intimate with a tree than that! He can be thought of as crucifying or hanging himself on the tree like Odin in order to capture higher knowledge and immortality (which as it so happens, goes hand in hand with 'immorality' which is right up Bloodraven's morally shady alley!) Quote A Dance with Dragons - Bran II Before them a pale lord in ebon finery sat dreaming in a tangled nest of roots, a woven weirwood throne that embraced his withered limbs as a mother does a child. His body was so skeletal and his clothes so rotted that at first Bran took him for another corpse, a dead man propped up so long that the roots had grown over him, under him, and through him. What skin the corpse lord showed was white, save for a bloody blotch that crept up his neck onto his cheek. His white hair was fine and thin as root hair and long enough to brush against the earthen floor. Roots coiled around his legs like wooden serpents. One burrowed through his breeches into the desiccated flesh of his thigh, to emerge again from his shoulder. A spray of dark red leaves sprouted from his skull, and grey mushrooms spotted his brow. A little skin remained, stretched across his face, tight and hard as white leather, but even that was fraying, and here and there the brown and yellow bone beneath was poking through. From a certain perspective, the whole Yggdrasil complex via which Odin gains the ability to voyage among the worlds, including the 'underworld', which is likened to riding the horse 'Sleipnir' -- 'the stallion who mounts the world' -- can be thought of as a magic wand. What else is the wand or wooden staff carried by a mage or wise man but a magic tree in the end? Likewise, greenseeing is the magical fire effected by the wand-tree to which Bloodraven and now Bran is connected. On 2/4/2017 at 5:04 PM, Luddagain said: Perhaps indeed Bran MUST escape the underworld to return "Summer" Yes. Currently, the Summer child together with his 'Summer' wolf is 'under the sea' (i.e. the underworld) where it is 'always Summer' -- because Bran is currently underground in Bloodraven's cavern. That's why I've argued that in order to avert the next Long Night and bring back Spring, not only does Bran have to re-emerge from the cave, but he will be sacrificed coincident with the Beltane/May Day ritual in which the 'green man' or 'wicker man' is immolated (I think it'll be a heroic self-sacrificial gesture rather than murder by Jon or someone else that restores the peace and gives us our 'bittersweet ending'). The 'sun/son of Winterfell' must rise again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luddagain Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 Ravenous Yes we are thinking along the same lines but I think Bran has already made the sacrifice ie of his limbs. Bran I suspect will follow the path of all the dying/reborn god myths, associated with spring/summer and will be reborn again. I do not think he will be sacrificed again - or at least perhaps in another 8,000 years his descendent (or a different Stark, named Bran) may be sacrificed again. i think he will be bran the builder reborn. I think perhaps Jon will be the wicker man - I hope not but it is possible. However there has already been a human sacrifice FOR Bran. This was done by a Northern women (believer in the old Gods), using a knife, by the Heart Tree. Brans ancient dream was re-enacted. The Winterfell heart tree will die BUT a new one will arise. The sacrifice was of course Maester Luwin, who willingly gave his final hours. We know that Maester Luwin HAD studied the old magic (one of the very few with the Valkyrian steel link) and although he had become a disbeliever it seems probable that towards the end as the warging abilities of Bran and Rickon became obvious and the dreams of Jojen came true, Maester Luwin seemed to accept the older magic. I think it almost certain Luwin was a northerner, possibly even a Stark descendent, by either the female or bastard line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 @ravenous reader I love Bloodraven and I assure you that I am not undercutting him. When George had the idea of this story pop into his head, it started with Bran. If anything, Bran is our central figure. Bloodraven creeped in a little later when George started using his common theme of religion consumes and even corrupts. Bloodraven is being consumed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 On 2/2/2017 at 2:17 PM, The Fattest Leech said: when Bloodraven went 'under the sea' (into the far north), his archetype changed, and it seems to have changed into a Hypnos/Thanatos god instead, keeping in mind that the gods flip a coin when a Targ is born, and they are often two sides of the same coin. Twins in a way. (by the way, Thanatos is the Greek name, and the Roman name is Mors!) Much of the comparison is fairly self explanatory, but you can see the general inspiration George uses: Hypnos (/ˈhɪpnɒs/; Greek: Ὕπνος, "sleep") lived next to his twin brother, Thanatos (Θάνατος, "death personified") in the underworld. As we know, the underworld in ASOIAF is mostly the north, and far north 'under the sea'. We see that Bran has a throne made for him, and there are other children in the other cave room that are hooked up the weirnet as well. We first meet Bloodraven in a dream. Hypnos is pictured as having a winged headpiece. Here, and here. This could translate to a few different things in ASOIAF. Hypnos' mother was Nyx (Νύξ, "Night"), the deity of Night, and his father was Erebus, the deity of Darkness. Nyx was a dreadful and powerful goddess, and even Zeus feared entering her realm. Brynden is the son of Aegon IV, or, Aegon the Unworthy Melissa Blackwood is his mother, and that house has a dead weirwood on their estate. Hypnos' three brothers (according to Hesiod and Hyginus) or sons/children (according to Ovid) were known as the Oneiroi, which is Greek for "dreams." Morpheus is the Winged God of Dreams and can take human form in dreams. Phobetor is the personification of nightmares and created frightening dreams, he could take the shape of any animal including bears and tigers. Phantasos was known for creating fake dreams full of illusions. Morpheus, Phobetor, and Phantasos appeared in the dreams of kings. The Oneiroi, his children, lived in a cave at the shores of the Ocean in the West. The cave had two gates with which to send people dreams; one made from ivory and the other from buckhorn. However, before they could do their work and send out the dreams, first Hypnos had to put the recipient to sleep. So we have children of the forest living in the caves that 'work' for their god. Sounds familiar. We have the river that runs through the cave to where??? They have to put recipients to sleep. Alaso familiar, and could be the inspiration to the weirwood paste Bran has to eat. Just an idea. THE ONEIROI were the dark-winged spirits (daimones) of dreams which emerged each night like a flock of bats from their cavernous home in Erebos--the land of eternal darkness beyond the rising sun. The Oneiroi passed through one of two gates (pylai). The first of these, made of horn, was the source of the prophetic god-sent dreams, while the other, constructed of ivory, was the source of dreams which were false and without meaning. The term for nightmare was melas oneiros (black dream). In addition to the flocks of ravens, and the CotF, Bran also finds a huge dragon skeleton at the back of the cave that calls "gigantic bats"! (this also parallels Viserion over in Essos at this same time) According to some the leader of the Oneiroi was Morpheus, a god who appeared in the dreams of kings in the guise of a man bearing messages from the gods. Could Brynden Rivers abandoned the Watch because of a message he received? Many here theorize yes. Hypnos/Thanatos live in a big cave, which the river Lethe ("Forgetfulness") comes from and where night and day meet. His bed is made of ebony, on the entrance of the cave grow a number of poppies and other hypnotic plants. Weirwood thrones. We see weirwood and ebony dualistically several times in the story. George could have just used the weirwood property in place of the ebony in this case to be consistent with the rest of ASOIAF. Weirwood (Jojen?) paste. Remember how Bran felt after he started to eat the paste. Trippy would describe it best, I think. Poppies were associated with both Hypnos and Thanatos because of their hypnogogic traits and the eventual death engendered by overexposure to them. This also sounds a little like Sweetrobin, but I don't know that George is going to use this on SR literally. He may change that ending for SR, too. No light and no sound would ever enter his grotto. We read about this time and again in Bran's chapters when he explains how dark it is in the cave, and how flames don't last long, and daylight cannot reach inside, etc. In both stories, darkness is a key element to the characters within. I won't list them all out, but we know how dark the cave is, and also how darkness seems to "waken" the warg powers within the little Starklings all over Planetos. He is said to be a calm and gentle god, as he helps humans in need and, due to their sleep, owns half of their lives. However, if we go back to the Targ two sided coin, we know that Thanatos was thus regarded as merciless and indiscriminate, hated by - and hateful towards — mortals and gods alike. Brynden Rivers was always morally ambiguous in life. He was full of duty, but at the expense of some questionable practices. Battle of Redgrass field, and the Aeny Blackfyre/Great Council debacle that got him sent to the wall. Also, those pesky "sinister sorcerer" rumors that spread like the Spring Sickness throughout Westeros. Thanatos could occasionally be outwitted, a feat that the sly King Sisyphus of Korinth twice accomplished. When it came time for Sisyphus to die, Zeus ordered Thanatos to chain Sisyphus up in Tartarus. Sisyphus cheated death by tricking Thanatos into his own shackles, thereby prohibiting the demise of any mortal while Thanatos was so enchained. Eventually Ares, the bloodthirsty god of war, grew frustrated with the battles he incited since neither side suffered any casualties. He released Thanatos and handed his captor over to the god. King Sisyphus seems to be a comparison the the Blackfyres that Bloodraven was always battling down. Three times, actually. The "He released" in the Thanatos story compares to Aegon IV releasing Bloodraven to take up the black for life, where after a time, Bloodraven left the watch and became a "god". And we have this: "And there the children of dark Night have their dwellings, Sleep and Death, awful gods. The glowing Sun never looks upon them with his beams, neither as he goes up into heaven, nor as he comes down from heaven. And the former of them roams peacefully over the earth and the sea's broad back and is kindly to men; but the other has a heart of iron, and his spirit within him is pitiless as bronze: whomsoever of men he has once seized he holds fast: and he is hateful even to the deathless gods." -Hesiod, Theogony 758 ff, trans. Evelyn-White, Greek epic 8th or 7th century BC Hi Leech, The Hypnos connection, especially in conjunction with hypnosis and mind-altering hypnotic (i.e. sleep-inducing) drugs like opium is interesting and dovetails nicely with what I've previously written on Hiemal's 'Nennymoan' thread. Permit me to quote myself : Quote Drowning as a metaphor for greenseeing Quote A Dance with Dragons - Bran III He even crossed the slender stone bridge that arched over the abyss and discovered more passages and chambers on the far side. One was full of singers, enthroned like Brynden in nests of weirwood roots that wove under and through and around their bodies. Most of them looked dead to him, but as he crossed in front of them their eyes would open and follow the light of his torch, and one of them opened and closed a wrinkled mouth as if he were trying to speak. "Hodor," Bran said to him, and he felt the real Hodor stir down in his pit. The 'cavern of singers, or skulls', is like a hazy opium den or seabed -- underwater, human language is suppressed, sound is distorted, and things seem to move in slow motion in a dreamlike atmosphere, where the inhabitants might very well be engaged in some sort of dreaming, e.g. 'green-dreaming or -seeing' (well, it is called a sea/see 'bed' )-- or even seem dead. Skinchanging Hodor, Bran is able to wander around the cavern (or in our metaphorical terms, do a bit of 'deep-sea' diving) encountering exotic sedentary creatures, one of whom he already is himself considering his own paralysis, and one of whom he is soon to become like Bloodraven who is caught in the stranglehold of the weirwood and therefore no longer 'quick' as he calls it (although this selfsame stranglehold has paradoxically prolonged his life; granting him breath as it suffocates him). Affixed to the rocks like vegetation, the singers stir, opening and closing their mouths like fishes or rather, considering their rootedness, sea anemones resembling their eponymous flower 'cousins'. Likewise, with his bright eye framed by his long flowing hair, tattery skin and weirwood crown, Bloodraven has come to resemble an anemone as much as playing host to one. Specifically, the weirwood roots snaking in and out of his face resemble the tentacles of the anemone, the electrical properties represented by the fire of his one red eye 'burning like the last coal in a dead fire,' although in this analogy the one red eye also stands in for the anemone's central mouth: Quote Seated on his throne of roots in the great cavern, half-corpse and half-tree, Lord Brynden seemed less a man than some ghastly statue made of twisted wood, old bone, and rotted wool. The only thing that looked alive in the pale ruin that was his face was his one red eye, burning like the last coal in a dead fire, surrounded by twisted roots and tatters of leathery white skin hanging off a yellowed skull. The sight of him still frightened Bran—the weirwood roots snaking in and out of his withered flesh, the mushrooms sprouting from his cheeks, the white wooden worm that grew from the socket where one eye had been. He liked it better when the torches were put out. In the dark he could pretend that it was the three-eyed crow who whispered to him and not some grisly talking corpse. -snip- deep'green sea' -- pun on 'green see' of the widespread weirwood network. On the one hand, the singers or chosen ones 'drink from the green fountain' of immortality (ADWD-Bran III), ingesting it. On the other hand, they also 'go into the trees' and are taken up by 'wood, leaf, limb and root' (ADWD-Bran III) arguably immersing or being ingested themselves in that selfsame fountain. Similarly, in the description given of Bloodraven's cave above, the darkness in which Bloodraven and Bran are enveloped is compared to the fluid substance of ,mother's milk, serving a dual purpose for the greenseers, respectively something they swallow or 'milk' as it were, as well as being something within which they themselves are swallowed, 'milked,' or drowned. It's implied, therefore, that 'drowning,' like falling, may be related to greenseeing symbolically and perhaps literally (should it turn out to be the case that greenseers were indeed the party responsible for triggering historic catastrophes causing epic flooding of the land by water and darkness, etc.). The 'milk' reference to greenseeing should convey caution, when we consider that 'milk snakes' to which the weirwood roots are compared are banded red and white snakes which closely resemble a poisonous variant. In addition, the cavern is compared to a giant mouth, with upper and lower rows of teeth, threatening to consume those venturing inside. 'Milk' should always remind us of the ubiquitous 'milk of the poppy,' and @Pain killer Jane also makes a good point about 'sweetmilk' which likewise can be dangerous in a dose-dependent fashion: On 9/16/2016 at 4:31 PM, Pain killer Jane said: Milk Snakes- Sweetmilk while it is good in doses can be used as a poison to kill and we know the association of poison, snakes and the Targaryens. Quote A Dance with Dragons - Bran II The way the shadows shifted made it seem as if the walls were moving too. Bran saw great white snakes slithering in and out of the earth around him, and his heart thumped in fear. He wondered if they had blundered into a nest of milk snakes or giant grave worms, soft and pale and squishy. Grave worms have teeth. Hodor saw them too. "Hodor," he whimpered, reluctant to go on. But when the girl child stopped to let them catch her, the torchlight steadied, and Bran realized that the snakes were only white roots like the one he'd hit his head on. "It's weirwood roots," he said. "Remember the heart tree in the godswood, Hodor? The white tree with the red leaves? A tree can't hurt you." "Hodor." Hodor plunged ahead, hurrying after the child and her torch, deeper into the earth. They passed another branching, and another, then came into an echoing cavern as large as the great hall of Winterfell, with stone teeth hanging from its ceiling and more poking up through its floor. The child in the leafy cloak wove a path through them. Quote From wikipedia: Milk snakes grow 20 to 60 inches (51 to 152 cm) long. They have smooth and shiny scales and their typical color pattern is alternating bands of red-black-yellow or white-black-red. However, red blotches instead of bands are seen in some populations. Some milk snakes have a striking resemblance to coral snakes and this mimicry (known as Batesian mimicry) likely scares away potential predators. While both milk snakes and coral snakes possess transverse bands of red, black and yellow, common mnemonics can be used to properly distinguish between the deadly coral snake and the harmless milk snake: Red touches black, you're OK, Jack; red touches yellow, you're a dead fellow.[citation needed] Red on yellow kills a fellow. Red on black, venom lack. Considering readers frequently ask whether Bloodraven and the weirwoods are 'good' or 'bad' agents, questioning their motives when it comes to Bran, this information is teasingly suggestive. 'Red touches black, you're OK' -- the Targaryen colors or Bloodraven's 'blood and smoke' -- should indicate benign intentions, following this color signification. However, 'red touches yellow, you're a dead fellow' -- Bloodraven's red birthmark and spray of red weirwood leaves adjacent to his yellow scalp; and Leaf's colors of red and yellow (or russet and gold) -- would seem to indicate otherwise! Bran's 'phenomenology of greenseeing' As the character providing our window into the phenomenology of 'third-eye' seeing, Bran frequently describes the experience of greenseeing and skinchanging in 'watery' terms, as a disorienting sensation of dissolution (becoming 'no-one'), having ones insides 'turned to water,' being 'upside down and inside out,' submerged in an alternate reality and then abruptly spat out, as if by some roiling ocean current, or whirlwind. To reiterate, sea/see is a cardinal pun to watch. Quote A Game of Thrones - Bran III LOOK DOWN! Bran looked down, and felt his insides turn to water. The ground was rushing up at him now. The whole world was spread out below him, a tapestry of white and brown and green. He could see everything so clearly that for a moment he forgot to be afraid. He could see the whole realm, and everyone in it. A Dance with Dragons - Bran II The world moved dizzily around him. White trees, black sky, red flames, everything was whirling, shifting, spinning. He felt himself stumbling. He could hear Hodor screaming, "Hodor hodor hodor hodor. Hodor hodor hodor hodor. Hodor hodor hodor hodor hodor." A cloud of ravens was pouring from the cave, and he saw a little girl with a torch in hand, darting this way and that. -snip- ...ended up 'drowned' by snow). In Bloodraven's hollow, a mound or rather pocket within the landscape covered and walled-in by snow, to the extent that Summer must dig himself out in order to exit, Bran can also be said to be drowned from a certain perspective. Augmenting this picture, there is a black, bottomless underground sea* feeding the cavern, coincident with the central importance of this watery theme to greenseeing. Being 'buried' in the snow is analogous to being drowned in water. Snow is crystallised water, after all. And a monotonous white expanse of the precipitate covering the terrain tends to unify the landscape until individual landmarks and features are barely distinguishable, as if it were one unbroken sea. Similarly, a vast tract of trees may appear as a sea. For example, consider the technique used by GRRM in this Jon-passage (special thanks firstly to 'the princess of the green' @Tijgy for bringing this haunting passage to my attention, and she as well as @Wizz-The-Smith for developing many of the ideas therein together with me! Please also see @The Fattest Leech's excellent examples of the same, above, particular the one involving 'the drowned forest'; there are also several Asha passages in which the north is configured as 'an ocean of leaves'): Quote A Clash of Kings - Jon IV Closer at hand, it was the trees that ruled. To south and east the wood went on as far as Jon could see, a vast tangle of root and limb painted in a thousand shades of green, with here and there a patch of red where a weirwood shouldered through the pines and sentinels, or a blush of yellow where some broadleafs had begun to turn. When the wind blew, he could hear the creak and groan of branches older than he was. A thousand leaves fluttered, and for a moment the forest seemed a deep green sea, storm-tossed and heaving, eternal and unknowable. Ghost was not like to be alone down there, he thought. Anything could be moving under that sea, creeping toward the ringfort through the dark of the wood, concealed beneath those trees. Anything. How would they ever know? He stood there for a long time, until the sun vanished behind the saw-toothed mountains and darkness began to creep through the forest. -snip- Quote *As an aside: a note on the 'sunless sea' GRRM, heavily borrowing from the poet Samuel Taylor Coleridge's poem 'Kubla Khan' calls the underground sea in Bloodraven's cavern a 'sunless sea' -- i.e. as I've explained before on other threads, using the wordplay I've identified, a locus of 'dark-seeing.' Incidentally, this poem was reportedly composed under the influence of a mind-altering, dreamy opium ('milk of the poppy')-induced haze. Similarly, mushrooms sprout from Bloodraven's skull/brain (literally mind-altering!) which may be a nod to the cult of the Vedic priests or other shamanic traditions such as that of the Native Americans, which have been known to use hallucinogenic mushrooms as an impetus for their rituals (not dissimilar to Bran's weirwood paste or Dany and Euron's shade of the evening). The mushroom Amanita muscaria or 'fly agaric', for example, was considered the 'divine mushroom of immortality' by Gordon Wasson, although others prefer Psilocybe cubensis ('magic mushrooms') as the likelier ecstasy-inducing candidate: Quote From Wikipedia: The Vedas (/ˈveɪdəz, ˈviː-/; Sanskrit: वेद véda, "knowledge") are a large body of texts originating in the ancient Indian subcontinent. Composed in Vedic Sanskrit, the texts constitute the oldest layer of Sanskrit literature and the oldest scriptures of Hinduism.Hindus consider the Vedas to be apauruṣeya, which means "not of a man, superhuman"and "impersonal, authorless". i.e. faceless, nameless (no-)ones. Quote Vedas are also called śruti ("what is heard") literature, distinguishing them from other religious texts, which are called smṛti ("what is remembered"). The Veda, for orthodox Indian theologians, are considered revelations seen by ancient sages after intense meditation, and texts that have been more carefully preserved since ancient times.In the Hindu Epic the Mahabharata, the creation of Vedas is credited to Brahma.The Vedic hymns themselves assert that they were skillfully created by Rishis (sages), after inspired creativity, just as a carpenter builds a chariot. Candidates for the plant[edit] Main article: Botanical identity of Soma-Haoma There has been much speculation as to the original Sauma plant. Candidates that have been suggested include honey, mushrooms, psychoactive and other herbal plants... Alternatively Mark Merlin [what a name for the job!], who revisited the subject of the identity of Soma more than thirty years after originally writing about it stated that there is a need of further study on links between Soma and P. Somniferum [=opium poppy]. (Merlin, 2008) In his book Food of the Gods, ethnobotanist Terence McKenna postulates that the most likely candidate for Soma is the mushroom Psilocybe cubensis, a hallucinogenic mushroom ['magic mushrooms'] that grows in cow dung in certain climates. McKenna cites both Wasson's and his own unsuccessful attempts using Amanita muscaria to reach a psychedelic state as evidence that it could not have inspired the worship and praise of Soma. McKenna further points out that the 9th mandala of the Rig Veda makes extensive references to the cow as the embodiment of soma. Summer under the sea In light of the above, this introduces another dimension to Sam 'tripping' on a tree (likely weirwood) root which may have played a role in impelling him forward to kill the white walker, in the ASOS prologue! Ironically, this would mean that the obstacle placed in his way actually facilitated his path by hindering him (akin to the interruption of Jaime's journey by the weirwood stump sleep/dream, whereafter he changes course for Harrenhal and Brienne). Recently, @Cowboy Danhas suggested a novel way of thinking about Sam's momentous feat of 'slaying', positing that he was willingly skinchanged by someone, for which he provided persuasive documented arguments. Whatever ones view of that startling notion, Sam surely received some form of weirwood inspiration in the deep north! Quote A Storm of Swords - Samwell I Sobbing, he took another step. A root beneath the crust caught his toe, and Sam tripped and fell heavily to one knee, so hard he bit his tongue. He could taste the blood in his mouth, warmer than anything he had tasted since the Fist. This is the end, he thought. Now that he had fallen he could not seem to find the strength to rise again. He groped for a tree branch and clutched it tight, trying to pull himself back to his feet... ... Shivering, Sam released his grip on the tree and eased himself down in the snow. It was cold and wet, he knew, but he could scarcely feel it through all his clothing. He stared upward at the pale white sky as snowflakes drifted down upon his stomach and his chest and his eyelids. The snow will cover me like a thick white blanket. It will be warm under the snow... It is 'warm under the snow' -- reminiscent of 'summer under the sea'? 1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said: @ravenous reader I love Bloodraven and I assure you that I am not undercutting him. When George had the best idiom she of this story pop into his head, it started with Bran. If anything, Bran is our central figure. Bloodraven creeped in a little later when George started using his common theme of religion consumes and even corrupts. Bloodraven is being consumed. Of course Bran is the central figure! We are in agreement. I just think Bloodraven as the first bona fide greenseer we meet via Bran's POV has been configured as the archetypal Odin figure to underscore the connection between Odin's acquisition of restricted knowledge and the greenseeing enterprise in general, though as you point out that's not his exclusive mythological designation. GRRM certainly likes to mix and match his myths! P.S. Do you have that exact quote where GRRM relates how his inspiration started with the boy falling from the tower? I've been looking for it and couldn't find it; only found the one about the direwolves. Thanks Leech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 4 hours ago, ravenous reader said: Hi Leech, The Hypnos connection, especially in conjunction with hypnosis and mind-altering hypnotic (i.e. sleep-inducing) drugs like opium is interesting and dovetails nicely with what I've previously written on Hiemal's 'Nennymoan' thread. Permit me to quote myself : Of course Bran is the central figure! We are in agreement. I just think Bloodraven as the first bona fide greenseer we meet via Bran's POV has been configured as the archetypal Odin figure to underscore the connection between Odin's acquisition of restricted knowledge and the greenseeing enterprise in general, though as you point out that's not his exclusive mythological designation. GRRM certainly likes to mix and match his myths! P.S. Do you have that exact quote where GRRM relates how his inspiration started with the boy falling from the tower? I've been looking for it and couldn't find it; only found the one about the direwolves. Thanks Leech. First, sorry about the incoherent sentence structure earlier. I was on my phone and my phone hates to cooperate with this forum. Now, such detail in your response. It's great. However, I am saddened that you missed my (sad, lazy???) pun opportunity when I promised I was not 'undercutting' Bloodraven ('cuz that is what you do to trees and shrubbery overgrowth) Anyway, yeah, I think basically we are mostly in agreement because in the end it will be George's story and this is a small bump, but it is always nice to discuss possible options with other detailed readers. Brynden Bloodraven Rivers is my hands down favorite character, above Jon, Bran, Dany, Arya... and even Val I only say this as assurance that even though he is my favorite, I still don't feel he is as "good" in the long run as we have been lead to believe. And I also admit that I could be wrong, and that's ok, because I like the mystery either way (and my husband is sick to death of Bloodraven talk). To me, Bloodraven seems to be holding back with his teaching Bran and I have to ask, "Why". There are a few things about skinchangers/wargs that he should be teaching Bran, but does not, and we end up learning more of the skinchanger "society" rules from Varamyr in his prologue instead... including the seemingly small (but not really) detail about there being enough skinchangers/wargs north of the wall that there are gatherings, or, conventions and they are peaceful, etc. Oh, and also that little "don't eat humans" rule. This is where I see the shift from purely Odinesque, to Hypnos/Thanatos. Brynden seems to have gained some knowledge in his Odin arc, but it changed him and he went into the sea. Also, Euron. I think he is terribly important to Bran (and Jon), but we pretty much know he is about to turn to mulch, and in turn, his presence was to give Bran the push he needs to be the next super greenseer. But George has said he has more Bloodraven backstory to write and I can't wait. (He did not clarify which future book) I am sure we will see some sort of change in Bran and Jon after they have their tragic experiences as well... and who knows what archetype they will start to follow then??? There are a lot of hallucinogens in ASOIAF. Shade of the evening, Weirwood paste, mushrooms, sourleaf, milk of the poppy. Maybe a hangover from GRRM's younger hippie days Two side notes: I like the anemone/sea flower connection. I remember reading that way back when and I still like it now. I also made a funny flower connection recently. A Johnny Jump Up. Also, I just got back from the game (we won and worked our asses off for it!), so I have not had enough time to look for the quote you asked for. I kinda remember something like that, but I am foggy on those details. While I am at it, have you seen the newly developed SSM search engine??? It is like a dream. The only thing we need now is a search for all of George's video SSM's because he often gives info at con's or other video'd places that don't make it into the SSM catalogue. https://cse.google.com/cse/publicurl?cx=006888510641072775866:vm4n1jrzsdy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Don't forget about Timmett son of Timmett. Sacrificing an eye to fire which is a clear allusion to Odin sacrificing his eye to have a drink from Mimirr's well of wisdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 40 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said: Don't forget about Timmett son of Timmett. Sacrificing an eye to fire which is a clear allusion to Odin sacrificing his eye to have a drink from Mimirr's well of wisdom. This made me think of @sweetsunray's theory about Timett - if he really is the lost Arryn heir and descendant of Lord Jon's kidnapped sister - that'd fit with Odin often wandering across Midgard in disguise... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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