Tormund's armbands

[The Fattest Leech]

32 minutes ago, Seams said:

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In relation to this thread, I guess my point is that I don't think the falling shields necessarily represent the death of Jon's enemies among the Night's Watch. People have pointed out that the Starks are strongly associated with the underworld and with death imagery, with Ned Stark even serving as an underworld king. The falling shields immediately precede Jon's "death." Since death seems to be just a temporary stage that Starks pass through on their way to their natural post-death state, the shields could represent men who will ally with Jon in death. Or, like the men who take wing while Tyrion watches, they could represent Doom and Darkness.

To complicate things further, I think that shields can represent doors. Brienne hires a woman to repaint her borrowed shield after she sees a beautiful door the woman has painted with an idealized landscape. It seems as if Brienne wants to carry that door with her; to be able to enter that landscape. Maybe the falling shields represent the doors Jon Snow is about to pass through: one to the afterlife, and the other back into Westeros after he is revived.

That is pretty interesting take on that. As in, they are following Jon?  When I first responded to this idea from bemused, I linked to the sigils for House Marsh and Slynt in case we ever get a description of what the shields look like that fell (not holding my breath for that bit of info). Well, if it is two people following Jon, any thoughts who?

32 minutes ago, Seams said:

The fact that the men blown overboard on Tyrion's and Sansa's voyages are unnamed probably means that GRRM does not have specific people in mind for the fallen shields. They represent something, but don't foreshadow specific deaths, I suspect.

I would grant that the guy who breaks his neck falling from the mast on Sansa's voyage is probably representative of Janos Slynt. GRRM made a point of associating Slynt's death with hanging imagery - in the first draft, I understand Slynt was hanged instead of being beheaded by Jon. GRRM changed the death to a beheading and had Jon imagine a hanging after someone pointed out that Jon would want to follow Ned's rule about the person passing the sentence being the one to wield the sword. (On Tyrion's voyage, some follow-up language describing the broken mast makes me think it might represent the crossbow quarrel stuck in Lord Tywin's gut.)

I had forgotten about that.

[bemused]

40 minutes ago, Seams said:

The fact that the men blown overboard on Tyrion's and Sansa's voyages are unnamed probably means that GRRM does not have specific people in mind for the fallen shields. They represent something, but don't foreshadow specific deaths, I suspect.

I think the symbolic death of the NW (or, should I say the former hierarchy of the NW) is the most important point. Complicating the issue is the fact that there are more than 2 men who possess last names still at CB, and more still in the whole NW (So, I have to ask if Mallister's shield would ever have been there?) ... And then, unless a man was already a fighter, he wouldn't have a shield (see Sam) ... How long has the hall been out of use ? ... There could be men from noble houses whose shields were never hung there.. 

..But the fact that there are still 2 shields implies those men are still alive. 

[jthurman14]

Love reading these theories. Sometimes genius, sometimes crazy, always entertaining.

The falling shields signifies that the old order has fallen. Which it has in the NW. It could further indicate the wall has fallen "only as strong as the men who protect it."  Both of those theories are very simply explained with few assumptions about the symbology and the narrative. In fact, I would say it is so obvious it is suspect in a GRRM novel. Either there is a connection to the number 2 and the cospiracy, a little strange to use such complex symbolism to hint at a plot twist with a relatively short time span. Or to Jons fate after the ides of march. A common motif/anecdote is a soldier being carried on a shield. Might be we will see those loose shields again. Wouldn't that be a sweet little nugget? Jon does not usually carry a shield? Correct? Or at least none was mentioned just before the knives came out.

What were the requirements for getting your shield on the wall? Be dead. Be from noble house? Or Good service and nobility? I cannot look it up right this second. I know it was discussed. I would add that it is more likely that "the shields that fell" (that right there says it all, right?) were either new and not well fixed to the wall or very old and rotting around the supports. Either way it could be a Direwolf or Black studs on bronze field with protective RUNES on the border, the Royce sigil. Waymars shield may have been put up due to the prestige of this family. The Runes on Tormand's arm bands and on the Royce Sigil is interesting. (although I seem to recall that Jon did send the collected gold to Eastwatch)

I am a few levels down the rabbit hole now guess I leave it there.