Rhaegar was WAY better than Robert

[Emie]

A while back I made a post about how terrible of a person Rhaegar was for abandoning Elia and their kids and basically starting a war that killed thousands. While I'm still displeased with what he did, I actually think he was a MUCH better man than Robert. Not only was Robert a drunken womanizing moron who put his country in debt, but let's face it, he never actually loved Lyanna. I've noticed that some people like to make Robert out to be this romantic tragic hero, but was he really? Ned himself even said that Robert never really knew Lyanna. She was very intelligent, kind, funny and had a great "fire" about her as Ned would say. Lyanna is in fact the type of woman that turns Robert off. He preferred a woman who would sit pretty and keep her mouth shut while he does whatever he wants. And we all know that was not Lyanna at all. She would definitely have a thing or two to say to him about his escapades. Her fire would have driven him mad. He only "loved" her because she was physically beautiful and he would become part of the Stark family and be a brother to Ned. 

Rhaegar on the other had probably did see Lyanna's fire and was in fact truly in love with her and who she was. He saw her as a human being and not as an object, which makes him better than Robert. That among other things, he most likely would have been a very intelligent and competent ruler who obviously would have been SO much better than his mad father. 

[Orphalesion]

You will get a lot of "Bobby Apologists" defending the fatass. They'll also vilify Rhaegar.

I don't think it's really a contest abotu who was the "better person". I know if I was Lyanna I would also have chosen Rhaegar based on what Jon Connington and Barristan Selmy tell about him. Or really just because he wasn't Robert because pffft I'd marry a Wildling before him.

And I agree that Robert didn't love Lyanna. He loved the ideal of Lyanna and they would not have had a happy marriage. It would have pretty much been Robert and Cersei but without the secret incest babies. And possibly Ned even angrier/more repulsed by Robert when he sees how miserable Lyanna is.

However at this point we have no clue about Rhaegar's motivations when he took Lyanna/when Lyanna ran away with him (whichever one happened) he might have just seen her as the vessel for his third head for all we know and was just as little interested in her character as Robert.

When it comes down to it, it's difficult to build an opinion of either Rhaegar or Lyanna's true character, the dead are often talked about with reverence and those that loved them (Ned and Howland Reed in Lyanna's case, Selmy and Connington in Rhaegar's) would mostly/only remember their best aspects, not the bad ones. 

We know very few facts concerning Rhaegar and Lyanna's time together and what we know leaves the doors open for every kind of interpretation.

 

[The Hoare]

We know very little of Rhaegar to truly know if he was better or not than Robert. Either way, he stole a woman that was promised to another, and the only fit punition for It is death.

[Lion of the West]

Well, I like Rhaegar too as a person, even if I am not sure that King Rhaegar would have ruled much better than King Robert did. A victory for Rhaegar does kind of bring a potential civil war among the Targaryen supporters on the heels of Robert's Rebellion, when Aerys' passed away. That kind of looks like a very messy situation for the realm.

[King17]

Rheagher started a war and thousands died because of it he is in no way shape or form a good man

[The Fresh PtwP]

Honest question, do people think Robert would've turned out the same way if he wasn't married to Queen Toxic? And not super depressed about losing Lyanna?

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

1 hour ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

Honest question, do people think Robert would've turned out the same way if he wasn't married to Queen Toxic? And not super depressed about losing Lyanna?

Perhaps not exactly the same, but yes. We know Robert was whoring about before his marriage; he got Bella's mother pregnant around the time of the Battle of the Bells, and this was while he was betrothed to Lyanna (not to mention, after Lyanna was kidnapped. I don't know about anyone else, but if the person I was in love with was kidnapped and possibly already dead, I wouldn't be sleeping around). Maybe he wouldn't have slept around had he been married to Lyanna, but I doubt it; he didn't really seem to take his betrothal as any sort of commitment, why would his marriage be?

Also, I don't really think that Cersei was the only issue with their marriage; Robert was just as much to blame for their horrible marriage as Cersei, him pining for his lost Lyanna, her in love with her brother. Cersei at least was willing to give the marriage a chance, until the bedding, whereas Robert was already drunk off his face, never making any effort.

He was scum before the Rebellion, scum during, and scum after. I doubt he would've changed because of Lyanna.

Anyway, Orphalesion said pretty much everything I have to say about the situation; we simply don't know enough about Rhaegar's motivations to truly know why he ran off with Lyanna. I'm more inclined to think that it was his belief in prophecy that made him go after Lyanna, rather than love, as we've seen big changes in Rhaegar's personality (and as far as I know, he never expressed particular interest in anyone other than his wife) due to prophecy before, what with the whole "I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior." situation.

[The Marquis de Leech]

4 hours ago, The Hoare said:

We know very little of Rhaegar to truly know if he was better or not than Robert. Either way, he stole a woman that was promised to another, and the only fit punition for It is death.

Thank goodness you're not in charge of the justice system. Women are property, so stealing one merits death? So wrong, on so many levels.

 

[Lion of the West]

3 hours ago, King17 said:

Rheagher started a war and thousands died because of it he is in no way shape or form a good man

Rhaegar didn't start a war. Rhaegar created as scandal, Aerys made it into a crisis and Jon Arryn turned it into a war. As in most times, there were may people who took a part in creating the war.

[devilish]

Rhaegar had the surname, he was groomed to the job and after Aerys anyone would have been a better option. However he was irresponsible. Kidnapping Lyanna was stupid especially when he knew that half Westeros would seek justice about it from a mad king. Rhaegar didn't start the war but he certainly pushed the Stark-Baratheon-Arryn coalition to it

Robert never wanted to be king. He was barely trained to become a LP (his parents died when he was young) let alone a king. He was pushed in a role he hated at a time when he was suffering from depression and he was lumped with a wife he never loved. Could he had done a better job? Of course he could but at least he didn't start a civil war

[JonSnow4President]

29 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Rhaegar didn't start a war. Rhaegar created as scandal, Aerys made it into a crisis and Jon Arryn turned it into a war. As in most times, there were may people who took a part in creating the war.

Of course, I don't think all wars are created equal.  I am very much on Arryn's side for calling his banners.  Aerys is ordering Arryn to violate one of the 2 MAJOR laws of Westerosi civilization (guest right).  He's denying his direct vassals their rights through the type of loophole a 5 year old would consider valid (ever pull the "I'm not touching you" and holding your hand an inch in front of your sibling's face as a child)? I am very much on Ned and Robert's side for calling their banners.  Aerys was a tyrant that gave the rebels ample casus belli (I've been playing too much CK2). 

[JonSnow4President]

1 minute ago, devilish said:

Robert never wanted to be king. He was barely trained to become a LP (his parents died when he was young) let alone a king. He was pushed in a role he hated at a time when he was suffering from depression and he was lumped with a wife he never loved. Could he had done a better job? Of course he could but at least he didn't start a civil war

Robert likely received the same education as Ned from Jon Arryn.  Ned of course is the man who ran his Lordship (undoubtedly aided by some dynastic reputation, but Robb's trials show that alone is not a free pass) well enough that his bannermen are ready to die for the very memory of him. 

Robert also had the good sense to know he was a shitty king and let someone better than him rule it to a long period of peace and prosperity, which only ended as a result of Lannister/Baelish treachery. 

[SweetyK]

I totally agree with the OP on how some people in the fandom turn a blind eye on Robert's actions, while in my opinion he was one of the worst kings in the history of the Seven Kingdoms and a awful humain being.

However, as mentioned in some of the previous posts, we don't truly know who Rhaegar was, we only have hints about his personality and those clues vary so much according to the characters giving them that it is almost impossible to build an objective view of him. Personally, I chose to ignore Robert's version of the Rhaegar & Lyanna's story and I focus only on the prophecy and love hints, which leads me to think Rhaegar was quite a decent guy but is this the correct interpretation? Only GRRM knows for sure...

Some other people think he acted only out of love, some think he was only obsessed with the prophecy, others also evoke political motives... Some interpretations seem obviously more coherent than others (for the moment) but anyways, it just shows how hard it is to compare Rhaegar to other characters until we know the truth about him.

[devilish]

1 hour ago, JonSnow4President said:

Robert likely received the same education as Ned from Jon Arryn.  Ned of course is the man who ran his Lordship (undoubtedly aided by some dynastic reputation, but Robb's trials show that alone is not a free pass) well enough that his bannermen are ready to die for the very memory of him. 

Robert also had the good sense to know he was a shitty king and let someone better than him rule it to a long period of peace and prosperity, which only ended as a result of Lannister/Baelish treachery. 

I doubt it. Sure they were both educated by Jon Arryn. However the education given to them would have been different. Which is fair enough considering that by not doing so would have ended up into a big disservice to either one of the boys.

Robert was the King's cousin and heir/LP of the Stormlands. As the King's cousin everything that he did reflected on the crown. Also Robert happened to be LP of a rather important region in Westeros. The Stormlands produced some of the finest warriors in Westeros but its small and their army reflect that. Its also fiercely close to the crown, in terms of loyalty and proximity. If KL is besieged Robert would be first in line to defend the crown. If Dorne rose its head again, then Robert would be first in line to defend the crown. If the Tyrells and the Lannisters decide to march their horde to the crownlands, Robert would be first in line to defend the crown. Bob would have had to learn diplomacy and military tactics very quickly as a trial by combat might lead to him fighting the future Selmy or Bob and his army are more likely to face a bigger opposition.  Which may explain why Bob was a master in turning former enemies as friends and was able to do well despite facing bigger armies

Ned is the Warden of the North's second son. The North works very different then the rest of Westeros something Arryn might have struggled a bit in since he's not from the North himself. As second son, Ned's role was that to support his brother. The worst thing that can happen to a dynasty is having a second son thinking that he deserve his brother's role. So Jon would spend hours teaching the boy how to need for obedience, duty etc. Ned's teaching would also focus mostly on the day to day running of things rather then seeing the bigger picture. Ned would learn how to run a castle, how to collect taxes, how to lead an army in battle without looking silly, how and when to oppose your liege Lord etc.

I am pretty sure that 70% of Robert's and Ned's teaching was the same. But there's that 30% which would be different. That 30% pushed Ned to rashly throw the book at the Lannisters instead of  patiently building up a case against them and only strike when he's 100% sure that his loved ones and his king were safe. It also explains why Robb (who learnt everything from Ned) ended up accepting the crown and to show the middle finger to the Freys when the wiser option was to keep all options open to be in a better position to negotiate a deal with the Baratheon brothers or Mace Tyrell

[dariopatke]

3 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Thank goodness you're not in charge of the justice system. Women are property, so stealing one merits death? So wrong, on so many levels.

 

We are talking about medieval times. And for all they know she was kidnapped. 

 

 

 

Robert was smart enough to pick a good Hand. I really do not find him that bad. I do not find Rheagar either, but from two of them Robert is way better King. Even if he doesn't rule, Jon did pretty good job at it. And naming Eddard Hand was not that bad move at all. People tend to make him guilty for Wot5K, but he imagine if boar did not kill him, this war would not last that long.

Rhaegar was an awful King, a man who kidnaps (or lets entire world think that happened) LP's daughter and faincee of another LP should not be a King. 

People say Robert whored himself, yes. But Rheagar left his wife and children for another woman. Robert never fell in love in anyone but Lyanna.

They are both grey characters, but I am more on team Robert.

[Orphalesion]

5 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

Honest question, do people think Robert would've turned out the same way if he wasn't married to Queen Toxic? And not super depressed about losing Lyanna?

Yep. Lyanna would not have played obedient wifey who sits there and smiles as Robert cheats on her left and right. And I wager she would have let him feel her discontent even more, and more severely than Cersei did (who could just run off to Jaime and take creepy comfort in him). Robert would not be able to deal with her making hell for him and would have slid into the same drink and depression spiral as with Cersei. 

And can you imagine what would happen if Robert had dared to even raise his hand against her or her children? The lioness has nothing on the she-wolf here.

So they both would have been just as miserable and toxic as Robert and Cersei. Only that the problems between Ned and Robert would have been even bigger once Ned sees how unhappy his sister is. Just like with Cersei i also doubt that Robert's mental problems started with the marriage or Lyanna's death, I wager they started in childhood, or at least when his parents died. The Baratheon brothers seem to bear an unusual dislike and resentment towards one another....something happened there.

It would have never worked.

In the same manner I don't think that Cersei and Rhaegar would have worked either. Sooner or later Cersei would have found offense and/or resentment toward something Rhaegar did (maybe she would have thought of him as unmanly for his harping and song making, maybe seen him as weak for all the time he spends reading, maybe as feeble minded due to his obsession with the prophecy, something) and she would had returned to Jaime's arms eventually. 

Robert would have needed something who does as she is told and who is fine with standing there, smiling and waving, while he gets drunk. He would have needed Margaery or someone like her.

As to Cersei...someone old and preferably impotent, who doesn't touch her, talk to her or asks anything of her, so she can spend her days laying around hating people and fucking Jaime. The best would be someone who can't get out of bed anymore so that she can be in charge of everything and pretend she's a lord.

 

Quote

Either way, he stole a woman that was promised to another, and the only fit punition for It is death.

Pssssht, whut? Death?

Also, does the woman have anything to say in that matter? What if Lyanna went willingly (for whatever reason)? Not his fault if Lyanna came along at her own choice. 

 

[Blueroses]

Yesss, I have been always thinking that Robert never truly "loved" Lyanna and I'm glad I'm not the only one.

He sure "wanted" her badly, she was beautiful and all and he was a teenager with boiling hormones. I think if the very same Lyanna was just a commoner, he would have wanted her too and got her "easily". But she was the daughter of the Lord of the most important house in the North, marriage was the only was to have her in his bed and to make a strong alliance in the same time.

It stroke me when I rewatched season 1, when Robert told to Cersei " You want to know the horrible truth ? I cant even remember what she looked like. I only know she was the one thing I ever wanted, someone took her away from me and 7 kingdoms couldnt fill the hole she left behind". For me it's a speech of frustration and pride more than a mouring lover. In the same scene, Cersei confess that she had once had feelings for him for quite a while, he responded "I know" and when she asked if they ever had a chance, he answered drily "NO".

That's the kind of man/husband Robert was, he should not have married any strong girl with character, not Cersei, not Lyanna. Lyanna said it herself "Love is sweet dearest Ned but it cannot change a man's nature". I've always considred that it's Robert who, somehow, created the "Mad Toxic Queen Cersei" we know.

As for Rhaegar, I don't know. At least he stayed kind and gentel to Elia. I've read somewhere before that considering that Elia was a dornish and that her weak health won't allow her to bear more children, she may didn't even have a problem with Rhaegar taking a "lover". But I will not make any deffinitive judgement on that untill/if we have a new book with more explanations.

[Blueroses]

2 hours ago, dariopatke said:

Robert was smart enough to pick a good Hand. I really do not find him that bad. I do not find Rheagar either, but from two of them Robert is way better King. Even if he doesn't rule, Jon did pretty good job at it. And naming Eddard Hand was not that bad move at all. People tend to make him guilty for Wot5K, but he imagine if boar did not kill him, this war would not last that long.

Yes, Jon Arryn and Ned were excellent choices as hands (not for them though). But do you think Robert chose them because of their qualities and honours ? I don't think so, he only chose them because of personal reasons. He and Ned were Jon arryn's wards. It's like he had chosen his own father and his own brother. Poeple he can completly trust and who had fought a war with him in a realm where some still see him as a "usurper". It's an obvious choice IMO, making it didn't make him smart but not making it would had made him stupid.

2 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Only that the problems between Ned and Robert would have been even bigger once Ned sees how unhappy his sister is. 

Or worse, with Brandon Stark, the wild wolf...

[The Hoare]

6 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Thank goodness you're not in charge of the justice system. Women are property, so stealing one merits death? So wrong, on so many levels.

 

For all we know, he kidnapped Lyanna. Are you implying that kidnapping women is fine?

[devilish]

1 hour ago, Blueroses said:

Yesss, I have been always thinking that Robert never truly "loved" Lyanna and I'm glad I'm not the only one.

He sure "wanted" her badly, she was beautiful and all and he was a teenager with boiling hormones. I think if the very same Lyanna was just a commoner, he would have wanted her too and got her "easily". But she was the daughter of the Lord of the most important house in the North, marriage was the only was to have her in his bed and to make a strong alliance in the same time.

It stroke me when I rewatched season 1, when Robert told to Cersei " You want to know the horrible truth ? I cant even remember what she looked like. I only know she was the one thing I ever wanted, someone took her away from me and 7 kingdoms couldnt fill the hole she left behind". For me it's a speech of frustration and pride more than a mouring lover. In the same scene, Cersei confess that she had once had feelings for him for quite a while, he responded "I know" and when she asked if they ever had a chance, he answered drily "NO".

That's the kind of man/husband Robert was, he should not have married any strong girl with character, not Cersei, not Lyanna. Lyanna said it herself "Love is sweet dearest Ned but it cannot change a man's nature". I've always considred that it's Robert who, somehow, created the "Mad Toxic Queen Cersei" we know.

As for Rhaegar, I don't know. At least he stayed kind and gentel to Elia. I've read somewhere before that considering that Elia was a dornish and that her weak health won't allow her to bear more children, she may didn't even have a problem with Rhaegar taking a "lover". But I will not make any deffinitive judgement on that untill/if we have a new book with more explanations.

Robert became LP far too early. Before anyone could instill discipline, integrity and made him understand the consequences of his actions in that thick skull, Robert was a 7 feet giant, who could smash anything with his warhammer and who could call 20k men at his side. Bob just couldn't understand why it was bad to sleep with other women when he was promised or married to the daughter of one of the most powerful Lords in Westeros or the madness behind humiliating his brother by sleeping with his wife's cousin on their wedding bed. These lack of understanding of social convention by both Robert and Cersei caused the war just a generation after. It also caused the wolf's pup life and that of his mother.

And that's the sole reason why I see Robert as a worse person then Rhaegar. Unlike the stag, Rhaegar was given top quality education which was sealed by Tywin's and Selmy's own approval. He was a man designed to rule, a person who could understand the consequences of his actions and the pain such actions could bring. His actions not only caused the end of the Targ dynasty and costed the lives of his wife, his father, his brother and his children. It also paved the way for a new king who hated the role and was simply not good at it. All of which occurred not out of love but because of a stupid prophecy