Rhaegar was WAY better than Robert

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Rhaegar started a war, Robert finished it. 

[The Wolves]

3 hours ago, Sourjapes said:

Rhaegar was a fool who started a kingdom shattering war. Robert never started any wars. He's a way better king.

Rhaegar was never king so there is no comparison on who was a better king. 

Robert was a shit king, husband, father, brother, ruler, friend and human being. Rhaegar was always the better person. 

[Lion of the West]

4 hours ago, Sourjapes said:

Rhaegar was a fool who started a kingdom shattering war. Robert never started any wars. He's a way better king.

 

4 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Rhaegar started a war, Robert finished it. 

Not really. While I prefer Baratheon to Targaryen, its rather clear that Jon Arryn started the war and Aerys provoked Lord Arryn to it. Rhaegar played very little importance in the escalation to war.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

 

Not really. While I prefer Baratheon to Targaryen, its rather clear that Jon Arryn started the war and Aerys provoked Lord Arryn to it. Rhaegar played very little importance in the escalation to war.

One could make the case that if Rhaegar didn't do what he did the way he did it the war would have never started when it did.

However Robert's War Hammer did finish it. After Rhaegar fell the loyalists cause was lost and Tywin made his move to support Robert.

[Hodor the Articulate]

Let's dispense with the myth that Robert's debauchery had anything to do with Cersei or Lyanna, or even his parents' deaths, shall we? He was having the time of his life while his "beloved" was supposedly being raped, and he had already had a bastard before that. It's clear Robert was the same man before the war as he was after it. He was Aegon the Unworthy reborn, and his successor is Harrold Hardyng.

And if we're laying the war entirely at Rhaegar's feet, then we might as well blame the Wot5K on Robert. Both men could have prevented wars had they acted differently at certain times, but that doesn't mean they were responsible for the wars.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

People liked Robert though he could turn enemies to friends very quickly. Why would the honorable Ned be his friend if Robert was a scumbag or bully when they were at the Vale. Yes women and wine were his weakness.

Robert was a war time King and had no idea what to do when the war ended. He should have just gave the Crown to Stannis and started a sellsword company in Essos. If Jon Arryn wasn't around he might have just done that.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

I wouldn't say I was a Bobby apologist. I just think that circumstances ought to be considered before passing judgment. 

King Robert was a tragic sort of man. It doesn't give him the tag 'victim' which seems to be such a highly coveted label these days. That being said, Lyanna's abduction and death was clearly something that pained him up until his own death. He found ruling to be an unrewarding and tedious thing. Joyless, if you will. Towards the end he resorts to keeping himself annebriated so he can't feel anything. He becomes an alcoholic. He abuses his wife. He allows his Court and Kingdom to conspire and yield to corruption. He was a bad King. Readers who play close attention to him instead of just recoiling would of noticed that Kingship is something he did not want.

" The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown ... it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe ... and mine again, as she was meant to be. I ask you, Ned, what good is it to wear a crown? The gods mock the prayers of kings and cowherds alike. "

Rhaegar was better? Hmm, I think that's something we'll never know. He did keep Lyanna from her family. And Lyanna did wind up dead. And then Rhaegar lost to Robert on the Trident. So.... It would seem to me and the realm that Robert was the better man. A strong and brave warrior, fighting for the return of his beloved, sister to his best friend who had lost his father and brother to the tyrant King. What was Rhaegar fighting for?

I can except a speculative suggestion that Rhaegar would of made a better King. But a better man? GRRM needs to give us more information before we can make that assertion. 

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

I wouldn't say I was a Bobby apologist. I just think that circumstances ought to be considered before passing judgment. 

King Robert was a tragic sort of man. It doesn't give him the tag 'victim' which seems to be such a highly coveted label these days. That being said, Lyanna's abduction and death was clearly something that pained him up until his own death. He found ruling to be an unrewarding and tedious thing. Joyless, if you will. Towards the end he resorts to keeping himself annebriated so he can't feel anything. He becomes an alcoholic. He abuses his wife. He allows his Court and Kingdom to conspire and yield to corruption. He was a bad King. Readers who play close attention to him instead of just recoiling would of noticed that Kingship is something he did not want.

" The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown ... it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe ... and mine again, as she was meant to be. I ask you, Ned, what good is it to wear a crown? The gods mock the prayers of kings and cowherds alike. "

Rhaegar was better? Hmm, I think that's something we'll never know. He did keep Lyanna from her family. And Lyanna did wind up dead. And then Rhaegar lost to Robert on the Trident. So.... It would seem to me and the realm that Robert was the better man. A strong and brave warrior, fighting for the return of his beloved, sister to his best friend who had lost his father and brother to the tyrant King. What was Rhaegar fighting for?

I can except a speculative suggestion that Rhaegar would of made a better King. But a better man? GRRM needs to give us more information before we can make that assertion. 

To the bolded, then Robert should have never taken the crown if he didn't want it. The rebels didn't start the war out for the crown(as far as we know)it was to save their necks, so why take something you never wanted? 

And Robert fought that war to save his own life not for Lyanna, or the innocent men that Aerys murdered unjustly it was to save his own neck. 

 

[Hodor the Articulate]

1 hour ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Lyanna's abduction and death was clearly something that pained him up until his own death. He found ruling to be an unrewarding and tedious thing. Joyless, if you will. Towards the end he resorts to keeping himself annebriated so he can't feel anything.

Oh, please! He used Lyanna's death as an excuse for his behaviour, but he's always enjoyed living in excess and shirking responsibility. He was a jolly drunk, not someone who drank to keep the demons away.

1 hour ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Rhaegar was better? Hmm, I think that's something we'll never know. He did keep Lyanna from her family. And Lyanna did wind up dead. And then Rhaegar lost to Robert on the Trident. So.... It would seem to me and the realm that Robert was the better man. A strong and brave warrior, fighting for the return of his beloved, sister to his best friend who had lost his father and brother to the tyrant King. What was Rhaegar fighting for?

We can't assume Lyanna was being kept from her family. There's no info on what she or Rhaegar were doing that entire time.

And to answer your question, Rhaegar was a strong and honourable prince, fighting to keep his wife and two young children safe OR Rhaegar was a brave and handsome prince, fighting to save his beloved from a loveless marriage to womanising boor. This is pretty much how just about every character has viewed Rhaegar. Granted, we've only heard from a few characters, but everything so far suggests Rhaegar was well loved by the realm.

[Tralalala]

7 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Oh, please! He used Lyanna's death as an excuse for his behaviour, but he's always enjoyed living in excess and shirking responsibility. He was a jolly drunk, not someone who drank to keep the demons away.

We can't assume Lyanna was being kept from her family. There's no info on what she or Rhaegar were doing that entire time.

And to answer your question, Rhaegar was a strong and honourable prince, fighting to keep his wife and two young children safe OR Rhaegar was a brave and handsome prince, fighting to save his beloved from a loveless marriage to womanising boor. This is pretty much how just about every character has viewed Rhaegar. Granted, we've only heard from a few characters, but everything so far suggests Rhaegar was well loved by the realm.

His beloved had a father who commanded her to marry Robert she had no business being saved by Rhaegar.

I've always viewed Rhaegar as the charming cool guy, who's charm goes alway when you suddenly turn the conversation to religion and he starts speaking to god about his chakras... While Robert is more layed back but just as charming,true he wont win any wards for diligence but he'll get the job done eventually..

 

[Steel Stag]

Robert Baratheon was a brilliant warrior, but he was bad ruler. He was a man with many flaws, but he had many good characteristics as well. He made many mistakes in his life, but deep inside his heart, he was a good man.

Rhaegar Targaryen might have been a more educated man than Robert was, but he insulted three of the seven kingdoms by naming Lyanna his queen of love and beauty and indirectly started a war that killed thousands of people when he decided to " kidnap " her.

In my opinion, it goes without saying that Robert was a better person.

 

[theblackdragonI]

9 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

And to answer your question, Rhaegar was a strong and honourable prince, fighting to keep his wife and two young children safe OR Rhaegar was a brave and handsome prince, fighting to save his beloved from a loveless marriage to womanising boor. This is pretty much how just about every character has viewed Rhaegar. Granted, we've only heard from a few characters, but everything so far suggests Rhaegar was well loved by the realm.

The thing is Rhaegar hid in Dorne playing house with his girlfriend while the realm burned. I get that Aerys started the war not him, but he really could have helped stop the bloodshed by not running away and facing his actions like the supposed strong, honourable, loving father and devoted husband he supposedly was. 

On Robert he was a good man capable of bad things and a mediocre king.

[KarlDanski]

As Barristan Selmy said in the show, "Robert was a good man and a good warrior, but a terrible king." Robert was a forgiving man (too forgiving sometimes) who was good to his friends, and accepted surrender like he did with Barristan Selmy. He fought at the head of most battles like a "good" king should unlike Rhaegar who hid for most of the war, and came back to fight Robert in the last battle. However, he was a terrible king, he was a drunkard who was too loose with whores, and he helped the throne get into debt, he would of a been a better Lord or Master of War on a Small Council or such. You could use the same format for Rhaegar that Barristan used for Robert, "Rhaegar was a good man, a decent warrior, but a terrible idealist." I didn't know a word to use for idealist, but Rhaegar assumed he would be able to get away with stealing/taking/seducing/running away with another mans bethrothed, hide away for most of the war without even giving a hint of Lyanna's condition or such, come back during the final war when his side's been losing battle after battle, and try to turn the war. He may of been a good man to his friends like Robert, and a decent warrior (comparable to people like Ned, Stannis, Sandor etc, not great, but decent), but his actions were terrible, and cost thousands of lives.

[Orphalesion]

13 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

One could make the case that if Rhaegar didn't do what he did the way he did it the war would have never started when it did..

MMMMMMmm....no.

Look at the real world, wars never have one single cause. There's just powder kegs that wait for a spark to blow them up.

Like do you really think WW I wouldn't have happened if that Archduke guy wouldn't have been assassinated?

And it's the same with RR. Between Mad King Aerys, Rhaegar's schemes to get rid of him, Arryn's and Stark's "Southron Ambitions", Tywin's power brokering and Varys' schemes to do...something.... the poop was going to hit the fan no matter where Lyanna Stark would have been. 

The same with the War of the 5 Kings, war was on the horizon long before Lysa slipped her hubby the poison or Joffrey chopped off Ned's head.

13 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Why would the honorable Ned be his friend if Robert was a scumbag or bully when they were at the Vale. Yes women and wine were his weakness.

They grew up like brothers, so we are talking a relationship that's on a family level in all but blood, people tend to overlook the failings of those that are very close to them.

In addition people change over time and feelings, as well as relationships can be very, very complex. Ned's not a woman, so the way Robert relates to women wouldn't have had any effect on Ned when they grew up together. it would have effected him if the Robert/Lyanna marriage would have gone trough, and it would not have been pretty, but that's a what if scenario.

Looking at Ned's POV chapter I find it pretty clear that Ned loved Robert, but was at the same time very, very shocked and repulsed at what Robert had become, I'd even go so far as to say that Ned as we see him in GoT resented Robert a fair bit.

Now how much of this was Robert degeneration from his supposed former self and how much was it just Ned now being able to see Robert's character from the perspective of a rational, responsible adult?

I don't think Robert was a "bully", truth be told I have a hard time picturing Robert getting enjoyment from cruelty or by mistreating someone who's weaker than him. He is inconsiderate of and oblivious to the feelings of others, but there is no malice or pettiness  in his behavior.

As to scumbag...well... we know from Lyanna's reaction to the news of her engagement that he didn't treat women well. Again I don't think there was malice or active mistreatment from Robert's part, but the obliviousness and inconsideration.

Robert wouldn't have been a good or loyal husband to Lyanna and it would not have been much better than Robert and Cersei, not in the long run. And that would have gotten very, very ugly with Ned and Brandon.

 

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

On February 7, 2017 at 10:17 AM, devilish said:

Robert became LP far too early. Before anyone could instill discipline, integrity and made him understand the consequences of his actions in that thick skull, Robert was a 7 feet giant, who could smash anything with his warhammer and who could call 20k men at his side. Bob just couldn't understand why it was bad to sleep with other women when he was promised or married to the daughter of one of the most powerful Lords in Westeros or the madness behind humiliating his brother by sleeping with his wife's cousin on their wedding bed. These lack of understanding of social convention by both Robert and Cersei caused the war just a generation after. It also caused the wolf's pup life and that of his mother.

And that's the sole reason why I see Robert as a worse person then Rhaegar. Unlike the stag, Rhaegar was given top quality education which was sealed by Tywin's and Selmy's own approval. He was a man designed to rule, a person who could understand the consequences of his actions and the pain such actions could bring. His actions not only caused the end of the Targ dynasty and costed the lives of his wife, his father, his brother and his children. It also paved the way for a new king who hated the role and was simply not good at it. All of which occurred not out of love but because of a stupid prophecy

 

 

 

I'd say 6'6 not 7ft but I really don't know 

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

I seriously doubt Rhaegar ever beat on Elia Lyanna or any other woman, so I'll give him my vote for that.

I don't believe the "better man" can slap around his wife. Even once (it wasn't) 

[Orphalesion]

7 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

I seriously doubt Rhaegar ever beat on Elia Lyanna or any other woman, so I'll give him my vote for that.

I don't believe the "better man" can slap around his wife. Even once (it wasn't) 

Exactly, Cersei might be a soulless harpy, but violence has no place in a partnership.

And he would have beaten Lyanna as well, because Lyanna would have voiced her frustration with his philandering than Cersei. Granted, Lyanna would have likely hit back, but that doesn't make it better.

[Hodor the Articulate]

3 hours ago, Tralalala said:

I've always viewed Rhaegar as the charming cool guy, who's charm goes alway when you suddenly turn the conversation to religion and he starts speaking to god about his chakras... While Robert is more layed back but just as charming,true he wont win any wards for diligence but he'll get the job done eventually..

Unless we're taking Robert's word as truth, there's no basis in your assumption. Absolutely no one thought Rhaegar was a quack and nothing says Rhaegar was any more "obsessed" with the prophecies than Aemon or Dumbledore. As for Robert, we saw what he was like. He was charming and an all-round cool guy to hang out with, but "get the job done" is the exact opposite of Robert's MO. Unless you're referring to draining a goblet, that is - he got that job done quite thoroughly.

1 hour ago, theblackdragonI said:

The thing is Rhaegar hid in Dorne playing house with his girlfriend while the realm burned. I get that Aerys started the war not him, but he really could have helped stop the bloodshed by not running away and facing his actions like the supposed strong, honourable, loving father and devoted husband he supposedly was. 

On Robert he was a good man capable of bad things and a mediocre king.

That's the thing, we don't know what they were doing all that time. I mean, they were making Jon, obviously, but they couldn't have been at it 24/7. I assume at least some of the time must have been spent on gathering bannermen, since he didn't show up to battle alone. Joining the war was him trying to end the bloodshed and facing his actions, by the way. He was back to doing his duties to his House.

[KarlDanski]

They both have their faults. Robert was a drunk man-whore who put his realm in debt, and Rhaegar kidnapped/took a bethrothed woman, and led to a war. 

[KarlDanski]

Rhaegar: Aegon. What better name for a king? Elia: Will you make a song for him? Rhaegar: He has a song. He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire. There must be one more. The dragon has three heads.

Rhaegar was obsessed at least somewhat about the Azor Ahai prophecy. His asphyxiation on 3 heads of a dragon proves so, if we're to understand that Lyanna was suppose to birth a third dragon, then that means that he was willing to take anothers wife, impregnate her, and lead to a war. You can't say Rhaegar was a all-around cool guy, but say Robert wasn't, they were both good guys to their friends. Ned Stark, and Jon Connington are too examples of life long friends the two were able to have. You don't gain the loyalty of others like Robert did by being what you think he is. By saying Robert doesn't get things done, you forget to mention getting the rebellion done, the Ironborn rebellion done, and killing Rhaegar.

Rhaegar should of did his duty to his house, and not have taken Lyanna Stark, and started a war. He should of did his duty by staying with Elia Martell, but he didn't, because he was obsessed with a prophecy of him needing 3 heads of a dragon.