Rhaegar was WAY better than Robert

[Therae]

1 hour ago, Aegon VII said:

Is it just me or was Robert pretty justified in slapping cersei when he did, given the westerosi universe?

Not really--neither he himself nor Ned thinks it's acceptable.

I do think Cersei was deliberately goading him, the same way that she told him he couldn't ride in the melee at the Hand's Tourney with the expectation that he would do it (which he only didn't do after Ned talked him down at Selmy's urging). At that point, she was pretty well committed to getting him into potentially fatal situations, and she seemed to have a really good idea about the way he reacts to things, so, since Robert reinstated Ned, the very guy who thwarted her last plan to get him accidentally killed, she lays into him, probably in the expectation that he would give her a wallop and go off hunting and get accidentally killed.

I do not think Cersei was a victim in the usual sense, but that doesn't make Robert any less responsible for his violence. Would Ned, for example, have hit her in the same circumstances? Did Jaime ever, even with all the horrible shit she said to him?

[KarlDanski]

Yes. What we've been "told". There are two sides of a coin. Some like Robert view Rhaegar as evil while others like Jon Connington worship him. We saw the goods, and bads of Robert in the books/show, but we've only had quotes to describe Rhaegar. He could of become a tyrannical leader like his father, could of become Jahaerys reborn, or could become a mix. Rhaegar could of raped Lyanna but also equally of tricked her or love her. We do know he believed in a need for 3 heads of a dragon, and went to Dorne with her. Despite it not being with malice intent (or was it?), taking Lyanna led to a war that killed thousands, killed his wife, and children, but also himself, and Lyanna. Roberts only evil doings were not punishing Gregor/Amory for killing Aegon/Rhaenys, and slapping Cersei. Cersei wasnt a saint either, but shouldnt of been slapped. The whole thing to start this whole bad marriage? Accidentally calling Cersei "Lyanna". Her response to that accident? Refusing to birth a Baratheon heir, cuckolding him, givibg birth to her brothers children, and placing them on the throne. Abuse victim or not, we have only one case of Robert hitting her.

[Stubby]

[MOD]

Some comments have been deleted and subsequent amendments have been made.

This discussion brings up a timely reminder of the rules of this forum.  When it comes to issues of domestic violence, it does not matter if you are discussing fictional characters - blaming the victim is unacceptable here.

[/MOD]

[Hodor the Articulate]

7 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

Big strong manly bush > dainty anime prince pubes. 
Sorry guys, Robert wins. 

Did Rhaegar even have body hair? I bet he plucked them out with his harp strings, or possibly with unicorn hairs.

7 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

The issue I have is with readers asserting that the man we met in aGoT is the same man Ned knew as a youth; The man he went to war for; The man he put on the IT. He clearly isn't. What Robert almost definitely was, is a man who was thought to be the example of his time. He was the man that other men wanted to be. Strong, brave, highly sexed. He could of fought a thousand battles and sired a million bastards. A wrecking ball of a man. The bloke we meet in aGoT is a fat lazy drunk. But his legend was known throughout the 7K as the most ferocious of warriors and a forgiving King. This in itself can secure peace for the realm. The Iron Born put it to the test, and Balon found out the hard way that the 7K really did follow their King.

There was a superficial change in Robert in his later years, but I'm not seeing any difference in personality. Fat, lazy drunk is just natural progression for a man fond of engaging in debauchery in his youth.

We only have to look at Robert's parallel, Aegon the Unworthy, to see that a man of his disposition did not make for a good King. That he was well loved does not change that. Remember, Aerys was also loved by the small-folk and kept the coffers full, but we know that is only because he had a capable hand, same as Robert. Also, while not everything that happened after his death was Robert's fault, his negligence in kingly duties did contribute to much of the mess.

8 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

As for dutiful and bookish, there are other characters with those qualities who wouldn't necessarily make a good king. Sam is bookish. Ned was dutiful. Stannis is both. All Dany has is three dragons. Is she dutiful or bookish? What about (f)Aegon? Is he truly a manufactured king with all the necessary qualities? Tyrion's meeting with him shows him to be as aggressive as Robert, flipping the Cyvasse table when soundly beaten.

Well, Rhaegar had other qualities as well, obviously. He was more prepared to lead than Sam, far more sociable than Stannis, and from what I can tell, more mellow than Aegon. The level of devotion people show him, even after his death, is proof that he had that something extra. Dany isn't necessarily bookish (she's not had proper education so we can't say either way, though she enjoys the books Jorah gave her), but she is more than dutiful, and has been compared favorably to Rhaegar.

8 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Robert has a multitude or grievances against Rhaegar. I think if Rhaegar is the man the OP thinks he is, why didn't he point his sword at the mad king instead of innocent men, defending their innocent lords and bannermen? I suppose we'd end up going down the route of kinslaying being too abhorrent. But it seems he could cope with being a scoundrel who abducts women perfectly fine.

I agree that Robert's grievance with Rhaegar is legitimate. Blaming Rhaegar for his parent's deaths would be unfair, but he's very much entitled to hate the man for everything he's done involving Lyanna.

It's not fair to expect Rhaegar to turn on his own father. First of all, it would be suicide - you'd be volunteering to be prisoner, with a good chance of being killed by Robert. Then there's his family to think about - not just Aerys, but Elia, his children, his mother, and his siblings. He'd be risking all their deaths. At best, he's dooming them to a life in exile. He has a duty to his family, his house, his vassals, and his liege. Finally, what good would come of Robert usurping the crown? Rhaegar had no guarantees that the rebels winning would make Westeros a better place, whereas he already had ideas about dealing with Aerys and securing the realm. All in all, from Rhaegar's POV, joining the rebels for ideological reasons was the more selfish direction to take.

9 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Does any of the above clear Roberts name as a drunk, abusive husband who was also a terrible father? No. Nothing can excuse it. But it does provide perspective on a central character. It does demonstrate something human. Something that's in all of us. It must be factored in, especially in a series of books where every character is a different shade of grey.

I'm not saying Robert is a monster. He's very human and very likeable, with qualities, both good and bad. But I'm not going to woobify him or blame his more disgusting behaviours on Cersei or alcohol, or whatever. There's not even anything to say he was an alcoholic. All his drinking was done while having a good time, not to drown his sorrows. He was simply a guy who always liked to party, and never regretted it.

[Renly's Banana]

3 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Did Rhaegar even have body hair? I bet he plucked them out with his harp strings, or possibly with unicorn hairs.

While crying about his life. The Prince that was Promised must be as hairless as a ken doll. 

Incidentally, I see my post was deleted... so I guess Robert's pubes now constitute as domestic violence. Yikes. 

[Hodor the Articulate]

1 minute ago, Renly's Banana said:

While crying about his life. The Prince that was Promised must be as hairless as a ken doll. 

Incidentally, I see my post was deleted... so I guess Robert's pubes now constitute as domestic violence. Yikes. 

Well, it was coarse. Must have gave Cersei some heavy chafing.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

@Hodor the Articulate

All fair comments really. Although, I think Robert really was an alcoholic, I'm happy for it to be open to interpretation.

Was great discussing with you! Til next time. 

[KarlDanski]

50 Shades of Rhaegar: Tower of Joy Edition

[Universal Sword Donor]

14 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

We only have to look at Robert's parallel, Aegon the Unworthy, to see that a man of his disposition did not make for a good King. That he was well loved does not change that. Remember, Aerys was also loved by the small-folk and kept the coffers full, but we know that is only because he had a capable hand, same as Robert. Also, while not everything that happened after his death was Robert's fault, his negligence in kingly duties did contribute to much of the mess.

See I have trouble with this equating Aegon with Robert. There are definitely parallels (eg man of great appetites, drinking, women) but the actual capriciousness, wanton brutality, and intelligence* that were with Aegon simply aren't there with Robert. Aegon IV brutally tortured and murdered Toyne and his own mistress for merely sleeping with each other. Aegon hated the Dornish for reasons that are frankly kind of unclear to me. He tormented his wife after she gave him two heirs. Aegon purposefully knighted legitimized his bastards in a way that caused strife for 5 generations.

Robert's biggest hatred was for the Targs, and he only killed one of them and for far better reasons than Aegon IV had.  Robert forgave his enemies and those who plotted against him. No one ever accused Robert of being particularly intelligent (outside of possibly a military context) either. Robert was cuckolded by his own queen and that led to the Wo5K. There's such a different level of person once you get past the superficial comparison, I don't get why people insist on it. Robert wasn't a good king, that's for sure, but he's nowhere near as bad as Aegon IV.

*Basing that on the "dazzled the courts with his wits" quote form AWOIAF

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

The situation between Robert and Cersei was wrong for the beginning, she f***ed her brother the day of her marriage. She was never going to try to make her wedding to work, while Robert had actually tried to make the marriage to work. 

19 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

See I have trouble with this equating Aegon with Robert. There are definitely parallels (eg man of great appetites, drinking, women) but the actual capriciousness, wanton brutality, and intelligence* that were with Aegon simply aren't there with Robert. Aegon IV brutally tortured and murdered Toyne and his own mistress for merely sleeping with each other. Aegon hated the Dornish for reasons that are frankly kind of unclear to me. He tormented his wife after she gave him two heirs. Aegon purposefully knighted his bastards in a way that caused strife for 5 generations.

Robert's biggest hatred was for the Targs, and he only killed one of them and for far better reasons than Aegon IV had.  Robert forgave his enemies and those who plotted against him. No one ever accused Robert of being particularly intelligent (outside of possibly a military context) either. Robert was cuckolded by his own queen and that led to the Wo5K. There's such a different level of person once you get past the superficial comparison, I don't get why people insist on it. Robert wasn't a good king, that's for sure, but he's nowhere near as bad as Aegon IV.

*Basing that on the "dazzled the courts with his wits" quote form AWOIAF

But having sex is the same with torturing and killing people.

[Hodor the Articulate]

6 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

See I have trouble with this equating Aegon with Robert. There are definitely parallels (eg man of great appetites, drinking, women) but the actual capriciousness, wanton brutality, and intelligence* that were with Aegon simply aren't there with Robert. Aegon IV brutally tortured and murdered Toyne and his own mistress for merely sleeping with each other. Aegon hated the Dornish for reasons that are frankly kind of unclear to me. He tormented his wife after she gave him two heirs. Aegon purposefully knighted legitimized his bastards in a way that caused strife for 5 generations.

Robert's biggest hatred was for the Targs, and he only killed one of them and for far better reasons than Aegon IV had.  Robert forgave his enemies and those who plotted against him. No one ever accused Robert of being particularly intelligent (outside of possibly a military context) either. Robert was cuckolded by his own queen and that led to the Wo5K. There's such a different level of person once you get past the superficial comparison, I don't get why people insist on it. Robert wasn't a good king, that's for sure, but he's nowhere near as bad as Aegon IV.

*Basing that on the "dazzled the courts with his wits" quote form AWOIAF

 

I never said Robert was as bad as Aegon IV, nor that they were a 1:1 comparison, but there are enough similarities in personality between the two to see that, that sort of person is fit to be King.

[Jasta11]

On 2/7/2017 at 1:02 AM, The Fresh PtwP said:

Honest question, do people think Robert would've turned out the same way if he wasn't married to Queen Toxic? And not super depressed about losing Lyanna?

He wouldn't be as bad as we saw him, but I doubt he would have been that much better. On this Lyanna was right, Robert is too dominated by his passions. He loved the idea of Lyanna, but the actual person would have stood up to him and either bored or infuriated him in the end. The relationship wouldn't have been as hilariously toxic as his marriage with Cercei, but I don't think Robert was ever going to be happy with one woman. He wants to be an eternal teen/young adult, fighting all day long, drinking all evening long and fucking all night long. That's not the life of a responsible adult.

As for the comparison with Rhaegar, that's hard to say since we never actually see the guy. Second-hand accounts paint him as one of the best persons ever, but his actual actions, well that's another story. Surely he was a more sensitive and learned man than Robert, that much we can say. But that's not a very high a bar, is it? 

[Lee-Sensei]

On 2/7/2017 at 8:17 AM, devilish said:

Robert became LP far too early. Before anyone could instill discipline, integrity and made him understand the consequences of his actions in that thick skull, Robert was a 7 feet giant, who could smash anything with his warhammer and who could call 20k men at his side. Bob just couldn't understand why it was bad to sleep with other women when he was promised or married to the daughter of one of the most powerful Lords in Westeros or the madness behind humiliating his brother by sleeping with his wife's cousin on their wedding bed. These lack of understanding of social convention by both Robert and Cersei caused the war just a generation after. It also caused the wolf's pup life and that of his mother.

And that's the sole reason why I see Robert as a worse person then Rhaegar. Unlike the stag, Rhaegar was given top quality education which was sealed by Tywin's and Selmy's own approval. He was a man designed to rule, a person who could understand the consequences of his actions and the pain such actions could bring. His actions not only caused the end of the Targ dynasty and costed the lives of his wife, his father, his brother and his children. It also paved the way for a new king who hated the role and was simply not good at it. All of which occurred not out of love but because of a stupid prophecy

Robert sleeping with other women wasn't a big deal honestly. It's not great or honorable obviously, but it happens all the time in the world of Westeros.

[Ser Petyr Parker]

We don't really have enough information to be sure, but throughout the series we're made to doubt the assumption that Robert's Rebellion ended well. Robert is a disappointing king and we almost never get a description of Rhaegar that doesn't present him as someone more worthy of the throne and responsibility in general. Then once you start getting hints that maybe Aerys was about to be kicked off the throne and replaced by Rhaegar anyway, you wonder if any of it was worth it.

[devilish]

3 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Robert sleeping with other women wasn't a big deal honestly. It's not great or honorable obviously, but it happens all the time in the world of Westeros.

Sleeping with other women might not be a big deal as long as its done in secret, away from their wife's stares and the general public. That is why we never knew how many bastards the likes of Doran, Mace, Tywin, Hoster and co had. That's why public demostrations of that matter was shunned (Rhaegar's crowning Lyanna at Harrenhal, Tyrion's whoring, Robert's gatecrushing Stannis wedding etc). These sort of public humiliation displays can get crown princesses and kings killed and crusades to start up a generation later (just ask good old Elizabeth I)

 

 

[Livesundersink]

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Robert sleeping with other women wasn't a big deal honestly. It's not great or honorable obviously, but it happens all the time in the world of Westeros.

It was a big deal for Lyanna, because she knew that even after the wedding he would continue his whoring ways despite Ned's assurances that he would stop doing those things, she is proven right in game when Ned thinks on this when he comes back from the brothel where he meets Barra and her mother.

[Lee-Sensei]

9 hours ago, Livesundersink said:

It was a big deal for Lyanna, because she knew that even after the wedding he would continue his whoring ways despite Ned's assurances that he would stop doing those things, she is proven right in game when Ned thinks on this when he comes back from the brothel where he meets Barra and her mother.

Again, who cares. They live in the Middle Ages and they have different standards. Robert has the right to sleep around in the setting. Catelyn said she wouldn't have minded if Ned slept around and that her problem was that Ned was raising Jon in their house. It's normal in the setting.

[Lee-Sensei]

10 hours ago, devilish said:

Sleeping with other women might not be a big deal as long as its done in secret, away from their wife's stares and the general public. That is why we never knew how many bastards the likes of Doran, Mace, Tywin, Hoster and co had. That's why public demostrations of that matter was shunned (Rhaegar's crowning Lyanna at Harrenhal, Tyrion's whoring, Robert's gatecrushing Stannis wedding etc). These sort of public humiliation displays can get crown princesses and kings killed and crusades to start up a generation later (just ask good old Elizabeth I)

It took Cersei over two years to find out about it. She got Jaime to follow and spy on him. It seems that for the first few years he was discrete about it. Also, Robert didn't do that to Stannis on purpose. He was drunk. That doesn't make it alright, but it's dishonest to pretend he did it specifically to humiliate his brother.

[TMIFairy]

On 7.02.2017 at 3:46 AM, Emie said:

Rhaegar on the other had probably did see Lyanna's fire and was in fact truly in love with her and who she was. He saw her as a human being and not as an object,

LOL!

So much self delusion! He saw her as the egg provider for his fucked up prophecy. And Rhaeagr either was too stupid - or just did not care- that his acts will make the Kingdom burn.

Robert was no saint, but Rheagar is in a different league of crazy and evil than the Drunk Stag.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Rhaegar thought that a dumbass prophecy was more important than his duty towards his family and the realm. Robert was man who feasted and whored instead of focusing on the nation. I think it's fair to say that both of them are terrible.