WhiteOwl18 Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 I agree that Robert wasn't the great guy a lot of fans make him out to be. He claimed he loved Lyanna, but had no problem having sex with any woman who would let him during the Rebellion. He was abusive to Cersei. He didn't parent his children. He dismissed the deaths of Aegon and Rhaenys. He wanted to kill Dany and her unborn child. He cared only about war and sex. Not the best guy. As for Rhaegar, I honestly don't think we have enough information to say whether he was better than Robert or not. There are many things about the Rebellion that are still unclear. He might be an asshole or he might be a good guy who made a catastrophic mistake. Until we get the full picture, I don't think it's fair to take one side or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 Robert was never the sharpest knife in the drawer; but he went to war to stop a butcher and to recover Lyanna. He was never cut out to be a king and after Lyanna's death; he didn't care any more. He was a warrior plain and simple; so running the kingdom was left to Jon Arryn and the Small Council. He couldn't be bothered with political intrigue only knew that everyone around him was manipulating for power. He thought at the end of the war, he'd get the girl he loved. He ended up with Cersei instead. Not unlike everyone else in the story who marry for alliances rather than love. She didn't want him in her bed. He went elsewhere. With a better wife and better council; he could have been a better man. Instead he was surrounded by sycophants and no one with the will to reign in his excesses. So he went from every maiden's fantasy to fat man who can't fit in his breast plate, trying to recapture his lost youth. He never recovered from the loss of Lyanna. Rhaegar wanted to rid the kingdom of Aerys at risk to himself and his family; although I suspect he was a mediocre warrior. But when push came to shove, he had to back Aerys in the war. There's not much else that can be said about him except that Selmy says that Dany is like Rhaegar in her attitudes and inspires the same loyalty and devotion. So that speaks well of Rhaegar. Since he died young, he will be remembered that way. What we'll never know is whether or not Rhaegar would have inherited his father's madness. Selmy is certainly on the look-out for any signs with Dany. So perhaps the story that he kidnapped Lyanna was seen by some as the beginning of madness and steps were taken to remove him as well. The tragedy is that there never was a kidnapping; only that when Lyanna went into hiding at Greywater Watch, Robert didn't know anything about it. He assumed that Rhaegar took her when Brandon went to KL and Rhaegar was awol about the same time. It's likely that Robert made the accusation of kidnapping himself and believed it until the end. Rhaegar was probably taking steps to secure his own son's safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis-something-Rose Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 Hi everyone! On 4/17/2017 at 10:26 AM, Hodor the Articulate said: Only Robert and Bran consider him a rapist. (I agree with your post btw, I just kept this tiny sentence) And the reason Bran considers Rhaegar a rapist is because that's the story he knows. Ned told his children that Rickard was beheaded, not roasted in his armor. If he lied about what happened to Rickard (and maybe Brandon as well), then he'd let the story about Lyanna's kidnapping and rape stand, especially when we know who he is trying to protect. Plus the victors are the ones who get to tell the story. The Robert Ned remembers vs the one we meet on page are like day and night. Even Ned sours over this "new" version and keeps going back to better times with him. Everything we know of Rhaegar makes him out to be a very decent and well rounded guy. I'm also someone who doesn't buy into this whole Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy that's been peddled for years. True, he decided to become a warrior after he read something, but it's his life he changed, not someone else's. And people in that society don't follow scholars, they follow skilled warriors, so that's actually a smart move on his part if he's anticipating the ice zombie apocalypse. That said, the person I really side eye in all of this is Jon Arryn. Jon Arryn is the single person who gained the most after Robert's Rebellion. I can just go on and on and on about Jon Arryn and how he might have played the game of thrones. He had between his hands Robert and Ned, two lords paramount he raised in his halls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Twinslayer Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 7 hours ago, Widow's Watch said: Hi everyone! (I agree with your post btw, I just kept this tiny sentence) And the reason Bran considers Rhaegar a rapist is because that's the story he knows. Ned told his children that Rickard was beheaded, not roasted in his armor. If he lied about what happened to Rickard (and maybe Brandon as well), then he'd let the story about Lyanna's kidnapping and rape stand, especially when we know who he is trying to protect. Plus the victors are the ones who get to tell the story. The Robert Ned remembers vs the one we meet on page are like day and night. Even Ned sours over this "new" version and keeps going back to better times with him. Everything we know of Rhaegar makes him out to be a very decent and well rounded guy. I'm also someone who doesn't buy into this whole Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy that's been peddled for years. True, he decided to become a warrior after he read something, but it's his life he changed, not someone else's. And people in that society don't follow scholars, they follow skilled warriors, so that's actually a smart move on his part if he's anticipating the ice zombie apocalypse. That said, the person I really side eye in all of this is Jon Arryn. Jon Arryn is the single person who gained the most after Robert's Rebellion. I can just go on and on and on about Jon Arryn and how he might have played the game of thrones. He had between his hands Robert and Ned, two lords paramount he raised in his halls. Jon Arryn did well but Hoster Tully really did well. At the beginning of AGOT he was positioned so that one day three of his grandsons would rule the Vale, the North and the Riverlands, while a great-grandson (through Sansa) would sit the Iron Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 14 hours ago, snow is the man said: he screwed stannis over on more then one occasion. Giving renly storms end was a slap in the face since stannis most famous military act was holding it Stannis made out a lot better than most second sons, even those who are younger brothers to the king. Anything above a decent marriage to a prominent house is just playing with house money. To be appointed master of ships and being one of the greatest lords in the 7 kingdoms is far more than he could have hoped for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphis Baratheon Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 12 hours ago, Widow's Watch said: That said, the person I really side eye in all of this is Jon Arryn. Jon Arryn is the single person who gained the most after Robert's Rebellion. Jon Arryn lost a lot in Robert's Rebellion and in the events that lead to it. His family line was almost wiped out because of the war as both his nephews were killed, both of which were his heirs when they died. If Jon Arryn had died during the war the main Arryn line would have been extinguished. Jon Arryn gave up trying to father a son by the time he fostered Ned and Robert and was never going too until RR happened and his heirs were killed. We also know of no plans that Jon Arryn had to have Elbert Arryn married to a powerful House outside of his kingdom like Hoster Tully did. He seemed content to die without a child and let his nephews carry on the Arryn line the way they wanted too. 12 hours ago, Widow's Watch said: I can just go on and on and on about Jon Arryn and how he might have played the game of thrones. He had between his hands Robert and Ned, two lords paramount he raised in his halls. When Jon Arryn raised Eddard Stark he was only a second son that was not expected to be Lord of Winterfell. Also he never asked to foster Robert or Eddard, he simple excepted the offers to foster them. Refusing the order from a Mad King to murder his innocent foster sons (who were his guests) after the man killed his heir isn't really "playing the game" in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 15 hours ago, snow is the man said: he screwed stannis over on more then one occasion. Giving renly storms end was a slap in the face since stannis most famous military act was holding it Giving Stannis Dragonstone meant Robert was putting Stannis in the traditional home of the heir to the throne. I love Stannis, but Stannis missed the point. And this was another subtle hint to readers early on who Roberts real heir is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 On 9/11/2017 at 6:09 AM, snow is the man said: he screwed stannis over on more then one occasion. Giving renly storms end was a slap in the face since stannis most famous military act was holding it Nope. Robert didn't have to give Stannis anything. Stannis is the younger brother. He's supposed to serve Robert. Storms End was supposed to go to Roberts children. Instead, he disinherited his own children to honor his brothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said: Nope. Robert didn't have to give Stannis anything. Stannis is the younger brother. He's supposed to serve Robert. Storms End was supposed to go to Roberts children. Instead, he disinherited his own children to honor his brothers. This is correct. By tradition, Robert should only name Stannis as castellan of storm's end. or summon Stannis to serve in the court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
of man and wolf Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 Rhaegar was another Mad King in waiting. The targs are messed up. Robert was a better man. He isnt in love with Cersei but he doesnt abandon her. Rhaegar abandons his wife while sick and leaves her for another woman so he can fulfill some mad prophecy(that alone tells you he's next to go insane, much like his father)and leaves her in very little care or protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihlus Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 On 9/12/2017 at 3:25 PM, Lee-Sensei said: Nope. Robert didn't have to give Stannis anything. Stannis is the younger brother. He's supposed to serve Robert. Storms End was supposed to go to Roberts children. Instead, he disinherited his own children to honor his brothers. I highly doubt Stannis would've cared if he had only gotten Dragonstone, if only Storm's End wasn't given to Renly. Kept by Robert? Joffrey? Tommen? Sure. Renly though? That's just an insult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalerionTheCat Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 I believe what Barristan, Jorah, Jaime and others, even Ned and Tywin said or thought about Rhaegar. I believe what he did with Lyanna was not madness, but necessity. Another time, he would have been one of the great Targaryens kings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikachu101 Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 12 hours ago, of man and wolf said: Rhaegar was another Mad King in waiting ... Rhaegar abandons his wife while sick and leaves her for another woman so he can fulfill some mad prophecy(that alone tells you he's next to go insane, much like his father)and leaves her in very little care or protection. He dismantled his house, threw the country into civil war, and ended up killing his precious Aegon all because of a song; does that sound like someone who would make a good king? 12 hours ago, of man and wolf said: Robert was a better man. I think you mean king and he was, Westeros was stable and in peace it wasn't until after his death that the country was thrown into civil war but he wasn't the direct cause of that. The War of the Five Kings was Cersei, Jaime, Joffrey, Tywin, Littlefinger, and Varys' doing, unlike Robert's Rebellion which was triggered by Targareyn madness and stupidity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 19 hours ago, Nihlus said: I highly doubt Stannis would've cared if he had only gotten Dragonstone, if only Storm's End wasn't given to Renly. Kept by Robert? Joffrey? Tommen? Sure. Renly though? That's just an insult. I think Stannis would have felt slighted no matter what Robert did. Politically it was the pragmatic move. Personally it was, as GRRM put it, an example of his careless generosity. It's pretty much the textbook example of looking a gift horse in the mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegon1FanBoy Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 Looking at it that rebellion really killed alot of potential good men that the Kingdom could have used wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaywolf123 Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 On 7.2.2017 at 3:46 AM, Emie said: A while back I made a post about how terrible of a person Rhaegar was for abandoning Elia and their kids and basically starting a war that killed thousands. While I'm still displeased with what he did, I actually think he was a MUCH better man than Robert. Not only was Robert a drunken womanizing moron who put his country in debt, but let's face it, he never actually loved Lyanna. I've noticed that some people like to make Robert out to be this romantic tragic hero, but was he really? Ned himself even said that Robert never really knew Lyanna. She was very intelligent, kind, funny and had a great "fire" about her as Ned would say. Lyanna is in fact the type of woman that turns Robert off. He preferred a woman who would sit pretty and keep her mouth shut while he does whatever he wants. And we all know that was not Lyanna at all. She would definitely have a thing or two to say to him about his escapades. Her fire would have driven him mad. He only "loved" her because she was physically beautiful and he would become part of the Stark family and be a brother to Ned. Rhaegar on the other had probably did see Lyanna's fire and was in fact truly in love with her and who she was. He saw her as a human being and not as an object, which makes him better than Robert. That among other things, he most likely would have been a very intelligent and competent ruler who obviously would have been SO much better than his mad father. Rhaegar should not jeopardise peace though! Smallfolk are human too, not only the nobillity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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