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theblackdragonI

Tywin not remarrying makes no sense

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8 hours ago, Maxxine said:

Maekar remaining unmarried isn't weird at all regardless of his love for Dyanna or whether he was king or a prince. A king needs to marry not bc he needs a queen but bc he needs an heir. Maekar had 3 (not counting Aemon or the girls) so there was no pressing need to get married. He had an heir & 2 spares when he took the throne.

A king also needs a wife to act as queen. To be the mother of the country and that kind of thing. She should also provide him with heirs, to be sure, but that is not the only role a queen has to play. If Maekar had no queen then his daughter-in-law, Kiera of Tyrosh, and perhaps later on his other daughter-in-law and niece, Princess Daenora (Aerion's wife) would have played that role, just as Ellyn Reyne effectively became the Lady of Casterly Rock when she married Gerold's heir.

 

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Tywin is possibly one of the biggest hypocrites in Westeros. He expects his children to marry out of duty but he married out of love (to a woman that made no sense marrying in terms of diplomatic reasons) and he refused to commit himself afterwards. He expects everyone to obey the warden of the Westerlands but he himself went behind his father’s back. He criticise Tyrion because of his whoring and yet he himself frequent them.

It’s almost poetic licence. He lived his early years hating his father because he was easy prey to his paramour only to prefer his golden boy (whose pretty much in Cersei’s pockets). Tyrion is a spitting image of him and yet he wants him out of the way.  

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14 minutes ago, devilish said:

Tywin is possibly one of the biggest hypocrites in Westeros. He expects his children to marry out of duty but he married out of love (to a woman that made no sense marrying in terms of diplomatic reasons) and he refused to commit himself afterwards. He expects everyone to obey the warden of the Westerlands but he himself went behind his father’s back. He criticise Tyrion because of his whoring and yet he himself frequent them.

 

It’s almost poetic licence. He lived his early years hating his father because he was easy prey to his paramour only to prefer his golden boy (whose pretty much in Cersei’s pockets). Tyrion is a spitting image of him and yet he wants him out of the way.  

 

Amen, soul brotha.  Tywin shunned Genna for years when she told him the same about Tyrion.

He couldn't get past Tyrion being a dwarf.  Tyrion was competent/exceptional in any task put to him, and Tywin knew as much.  That's why he sent Tyrion to be hand in his stead, and Tyrion excelled there.  The whoring was merely an excuse to berate Tyrion, the real resentment was being a dwarf. 

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In medieval times marriage was more than just a union between two people + a way of having children. It could be a union, a compromise, and way to increase or reduce someone’s power. It could be a PR exercise, a trade deal or a way of keeping someone as a hostage without actually being a hostage. 


Tywin could have been the centre piece of sorting the Martell’s issue in an elegant way. By marrying Elia, Tywin could have dragged the Martells back to the fold, ruining their plans of seeing her children on the IT. At CR Aegon could then be ‘persuaded’ to take the black when he comes at age with Rhaenys married off to Joffrey. Such plan would have given legitimacy to Robert’s dynasty + it would have turned Dorne from enemy to friend.

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Because Tywin is dumb idiot first because of him evryone hate's lannisters  he never won a battle what is proven when he cant beat Robb a young 14 boy possibly his small council  did evrything even when Tyrion won a battle he claimed that he won

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24 minutes ago, LindsayLohan said:

Amen, soul brotha.  Tywin shunned Genna for years when she told him the same about Tyrion.

He couldn't get past Tyrion being a dwarf.  Tyrion was competent/exceptional in any task put to him, and Tywin knew as much.  That's why he sent Tyrion to be hand in his stead, and Tyrion excelled there.  The whoring was merely an excuse to berate Tyrion, the real resentment was being a dwarf. 

I think its more than that. Tywin lived in a world where most things couldn’t be explained (storms, rains, sickness etc). The only answer people had to explain all such phenomenon was that everything originated from the Gods. Now Tywin grew up thinking that the Gods loved him. He was healthy, strong, wise and the first born in one of the most powerful houses in Westeros.

Throughout his entire life he did his best to increase the gift given to him by the gods. He put the Reynes in their place and he swallowed his pride with Aerys to avoid risking everything. The gods seem to appreciate that. They gave him a beautiful wife and 2 beautiful children. 


Suddenly lightning strikes. His wife died giving birth to a ‘monster’. Tywin might have thought that it’s a co-incidence. Even the best of people can have a bad day. Yet as time passed, the boy turned out to be a spitting image of his father. His perfect children turned out to be fools. One became KG and the other one doesn’t seem to stop putting herself into trouble. The gods seem paving the way for this ‘monster’ to succeed him. What further proof did Tywin needed that the gods were somehow punishing him for his crimes, ruining the very legacy he worked so hard to achieve?


I think that Tywin hated Tyrion not only because he was a dwarf but because he saw him as the gods way of punishing him. For a superstitious society the Gods were basically revealing to him the way they saw him.
 

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13 hours ago, Winter prince said:

Too sort of co-sign this theory, I had the idea that Tywin was cuckolded with Jamie/Cersei and his true seed was Tyrion.

And because of that he was afraid of bringing another imp into the fold... basically shaming him further.

Could explain why Genna said that Tyrion is Tywin's son, but not Jaime.

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4 hours ago, hitman47 said:

Because Tywin is dumb idiot first because of him evryone hate's lannisters  he never won a battle what is proven when he cant beat Robb a young 14 boy

Castamere, Tarbeck Hall, Green Fork, Blackwater. And he never lost to Robb. 

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13 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Also note that Tywin is not restricted to his children when chosing and heir. He can pick Daven or Damion or any Lannister beyond Tyrion to be his heir. A second wife with more children would potentially open a Dance of the Lions for the Lannisters, and Tywin is to shrewd to fall into that trap when he's already got plenty of relatives of both Lannisters and Baratheons.

Not if he wanted to follow Andal sucession, he can´t. In fact, choosing your own hier despite of all rules - sounds a little bit like Viserys, right.

I am baffled, I thought you liked Andal successions and thought that succession rules couldn´t just been made up on the spot :P.

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1 hour ago, Protagoras said:

Not if he wanted to follow Andal sucession, he can´t. In fact, choosing your own hier despite of all rules - sounds a little bit like Viserys, right.

I am baffled, I thought you liked Andal successions and thought that succession rules couldn´t just been made up on the spot :P.

I do like the Andal Succession but new information has come to me, namely that...

Quote

At last I was able to ask him the question I had sent for the tombola. I have always been fascinated by how ASOIAF embodies the theories put forward by Acemoglu and Robinson about countries with extractive institutions (which hamper development). So my question was: Why do you think the political institutions in the Seven Kingdoms are so weak? His answer: the Kingdom was unified with dragons, so the Targaryen's flaw was to create an absolute monarchy highly dependent on them, with the small council not designed to be a real check and balance. So, without dragons it took a sneeze, a wildly incompetent and megalomaniac king, a love struck prince, a brutal civil war, a dissolute king that didn't really know what to do with the throne and then chaos. Interesting answer.

From this place: https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/5ggsle/grrms_visit_to_mexico_highlightsmy_experience/

Given that this would seem in my eyes to be an explicit statement by GRRM that Westeros is indeed an absolute monarchy I have to change my stand based on this. There's of course a distinct possibility that the heir to the throne can be chosen, while other heirs cannot, but I try to be reasonable and open-minded and base my opinion on what I can see in the books and from the author. And as such it seems that I was mistaken in this regard.

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17 hours ago, Maxxine said:

 

Tywin on the other hand technically didn't even have an heir bc Jaime was on the KG and he refused to name Tyrion. I think it was for two reasons: 1) he had this delusion Jaime was still his heir and would somehow get off of the KG and 2) as others have said he was hypocrite. He would force his children into marriages for the sake of the family but he wouldn't do it himself. Whether that was bc of his love of Joanna idk.

That seems to be the most logical reason. That he would get Jaime to return to the Rock. However, it does seem like a big gamble. We can only assume that Tywin has spent all his time since Robert's Rebellion trying to get Jaime out of the KG. Which to me seems like he's waiting for Robert to die (how else would Jaime be released), is that not running a big risk? Waiting out a healthy and hearty king. 

17 hours ago, zandru said:

I don't see where any "hypocrisy" comes in. Tywin had produced heirs, and all three were alive. One could succeed him. He "forced" his children into marriages the same way every lord in Westeros did - to make alliances, ensure legitimate offspring who could inherit (often, inherit another lord's castle and lands), and keep them off the streets (i.e., joining sellsword companies or becoming hedge knights or - gods forbid! - joining the church). Letting them find "romantic love" was never part of the equation - and to judge by "the songs" and George RR's object lessons, this was wise: it never, ever ended well.

Also, see my earlier notes: second wives have ways of trying to eliminate the competition from their own children's "right to inherit."

Even Catelyn Tully Stark wanted to "eliminate" poor illegitimate Jon Snow, lest he ever challenge her own children's right to Winterfell. The Wall wasn't far enough, in her estimation.

That's not true. Jaime couldn't inherit, Cersei inheriting would leave the Rock in Baratheon hands and he refused to let Tyrion inherit. As for your bit about him wanting his children off the streets? Jaime was the Lord Commander, Cersei the Dowager Queen and Tyrion on the Small Council. I'm not saying the marriages weren't a good idea, they were. But he is a hypocrite for forcing them into marriages they didn't want, to secure House Lannister's future, when he could have married a Tyrell or Sansa Stark instead and secured his house's future much more. As for Jon Snow, Catelyn didn't mind Ned having a bastard she just couldn't stand seeing him in front of her every day as living proof of Ned's affair.

15 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Tywin accepted the marriage made for him, that he found love had to my knowledge little to do with it, and so he expected his family to also accept their marriages, and if they found love in it then great. Secondly you should be aware that also outside of House Lannister people, like Eddard Stark, expected Jamie to be Tywin's heir. Jamie was all for House Lannister and rather happily disregarded his Kingsguard oath when he fought the Tullys for Tywin, so I see no reason as to why Jamie wouldn't be able to disregard his Kingsguard oath when Tywin died regardless of the technicalities of it. Wrong, yes, but perfectly in two-handed Jamie's character.

Also note that Tywin is not restricted to his children when chosing and heir. He can pick Daven or Damion or any Lannister beyond Tyrion to be his heir. A second wife with more children would potentially open a Dance of the Lions for the Lannisters, and Tywin is to shrewd to fall into that trap when he's already got plenty of relatives of both Lannisters and Baratheons.

If that's the case why not just name Kevan his heir and be done with it. Kevan isn't even castellan of the Rock after Tywin dies so it seems unlikely that Tywin left a will. Are lords allowed to choose their heirs? I'm not sure if there's a precedent for that. Admittedly the succession laws of Westeros aren't well known to me.

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1 minute ago, theblackdragonI said:

If that's the case why not just name Kevan his heir and be done with it. Kevan isn't even castellan of the Rock after Tywin dies so it seems unlikely that Tywin left a will. Are lords allowed to choose their heirs? I'm not sure if there's a precedent for that. Admittedly the succession laws of Westeros aren't well known to me.

Well Tywin supposedly wanted his brother with him when he potentially took on three major Houses at once so I think that a point in Kevan's favor. The issue is of course if the possibility to pick an heir extends to non-royals and I, personally, would think that Tywin wanted someone younger, in his/her mid 30s or some such thing rather than a guy who was probably going to follow Tywin into the afterlife after less than ten years.

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21 hours ago, theblackdragonI said:

Is it just a plot device to show he has a softer side to him and that he used to not be so cold?

I mean he is willing to go to such lengths to ensure his family's legacy will outlast him but he can't do this? I know some people say that he planned on Tommen inheriting but that doesn't make sense really. Joanna was dead 8 or so years when the Rebellion happened. Prior to that he wanted Cersei to marry Rhaegar, which  - with Jaime still in KG and him refusing to name Tyrion his heir - leaves a Targ in Casterly Rock. 

I guess he planned to have Jaime leave the KG after killing Aerys but was thwarted by Robert and Jon in that. Leaves him in the same predicament; being succeeded by a Baratheon and the end of House Lannister of Casterly Rock.

He literally could have married any woman in the 7k at any time he wanted. 

I like Tywin's character immensely and I understand he's a widow and all that. But he's very, very hypocritical for forcing Tyrion and Cersei into marriages that they didn't want when he could have secured a strong alliance at any time in the last twenty or so years with House Tyrell, Hightower, Arryn, Tully, Redwyne, etc. 

He probably developed a weird sexual dysfunction after his wife died giving birth to Tyrion. Now, he can only maintain an erection if he is about to have sex with someone that has already had sex with Tyrion 

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3 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He probably developed a weird sexual dysfunction after his wife died giving birth to Tyrion. Now, he can only maintain an erection if he is about to have sex with someone that has already had sex with Tyrion 

Could be, but most likely not.

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1 minute ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

sexualizing trauma or fears is quite common 

They are, but Tywin didn't have much fear to sire three children, and to my knowledge he's not shown many signs of trauma. So I think this explination isn't very likely.

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4 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

They are, but Tywin didn't have much fear to sire three children, and to my knowledge he's not shown many signs of trauma. So I think this explination isn't very likely.

The trauma was his wife dying giving birth to his deformed son. 

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Just now, Dorian Martell's son said:

The trauma was his wife dying giving birth to his deformed son. 

Still he don't show much behavior to indicate he has a trauma. If he felt some need to sleep with Shae, he could have taken her to his bed right after the Battle of the Green Fork. But he don't, so I dare to discard this theory.

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Just now, LionoftheWest said:

Still he don't show much behavior to indicate he has a trauma. If he felt some need to sleep with Shae, he could have taken her to his bed right after the Battle of the Green Fork. But he don't, so I dare to discard this theory.

His whole image is that of a strong man, so showing trauma would be a big no-no. especially after everything went down with his dad. and who is to say he didn't bed shae right after the green fork? 

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Just now, Dorian Martell's son said:

His whole image is that of a strong man, so showing trauma would be a big no-no. especially after everything went down with his dad. and who is to say he didn't bed shae right after the green fork? 

He didn't sleep with Shae because Tyrion as a perceptive person would have noted that Shae wasn't coming with him? Surely you can come up with better slander of Tywin than this?

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