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theblackdragonI

Tywin not remarrying makes no sense

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4 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Seems like a pretty clear cut to me - Tywin loved Joanna and didn't want to remarry after her death. He does come off as glaring hypocrite considering that he wanted to force politically opportune marriages onto all of his children completely disregarding their feelings while unwilling to do the same thing himself, but that's Tywin for you.

 

How do we know this? All ASOIAF and WOIAF make clear is that Aerys was a womanizer and had a thing for Joanna - I've seen nothing that suggest Joanna reciprocated.

In WOIAF it is stated that

 

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The scurrilous rumor that Joanna Lannister gave up her maidenhead to Prince Aerys the night of his father's coronation and enjoyed a brief reign as his paramour after he ascended the Iron Throne can safely be discounted. As Pycelle insists in his letters, Tywin Lannister would scarce have taken his cousin to wife if that had been true, "for he was ever a proud man and not one accustomed to feasting upon another man's leavings."

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It has been reliably reported, however, that King Aerys took unwonted liberties with Lady Joanna's person during her bedding ceremony, to Tywin's displeasure. Not long thereafter, Queen Rhaella dismissed Joanna Lannister from her service. No reason for this was ever given, but Lady Joanna departed at once for Casterly Rock and seldom visited King's Landing thereafter.

 

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19 minutes ago, Danelle said:

Actually we know a few things about her.

She had an affair with Aerys and she became very influential.

She was also able to influence Tywin and was his most trusted councillor.

Her plan to marry the twins to the Martells did not come into fruition because she died.

 

The fact that she arranged the betrothal with her good friend, the Princess, suggests that she did not need to consult Tywin on that matter. 

 

I think that this is quite possible.

If Tywin married another lady from a noble House from the West, then her family and her children would definitely have some power in CR. If he had children with her, then they would be a threat to his beloved twins. The situation would be more complicated if his second wife was from another region, the Riverlands of Stormlands for example.

a- erm were is that stated?

b-once again, we don't know that. Tywin allowed Joanna to raise the kids and we know that he loved her. We don't know if she influenced Tywin's decision because he rated her or because he loved her

c- If she was so much rated by him then surely he would have followed her plan. Which he didn't

I think that Joanna was an intelligent woman and the only woman Tywin loved and rated. In fact he allowed her to raise his kids which were his legacy. However we don't know

a- the impact Joanna's death had on Tywin. Maybe this legacy obsession was a direct result to her death. 

b- How much power she really had. I can't see Tywin allowing Joanna to go rogue as Cat Tully did. 

Regarding the betrothal, well Ladies are free to scheme behind their husband's back as long as they want. However the man will always have the final say. If Mace could keep mummy in her place in terms that matter (ex joining Renly's cause) then rest assured that Tywin would do the same.

Its pretty evident that Robert's plan in keeping Jamie close was to force Tywin to name one of his sons as heir. If Tywin married another woman then that plan would be undermined especially if that woman produces a male heir. At that point Robert would have been pressured to release Jamie because there's no way Tywin would allow a Baratheon or an imp to succeed him when he's got a male kid of his own. From Robert's perspective Its better to be indebted to your brother in law then your wife's half brother. 

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7 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Looks can be deceiving, but that isn't the point. The point is that Tywin was not the forthright man he claims to be. He knows of his children's incest yet he mostly ignores it. He is embarrassed by his heir's dwarfism to the point where he sends him  to die in battle. He then expects his son to rule in his stead afterward. 

 

Yes looks can be deceiving, in this case they are not. Well he's in denial about the rumours of incest, if he knew for certain he would have given up hope of Jaime inheriting long ago. Which son do you mean he expects to rule afterward? Jaime? That's a big gamble as I've pointed out earlier, he's waiting for Robert to die before him which is highly unlikely. He only does so because Cersei but I doubt Tywin was in on that plan, maybe he was we don't know. Regardless, Jaime refuses to leave the KG anyway so it's a dumb plan by Tywin to hold out for Jaime. 

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15 minutes ago, devilish said:

a- erm were is that stated?

b-once again, we don't know that. Tywin allowed Joanna to raise the kids and we know that he loved her. We don't know if she influenced Tywin's decision because he rated her or because he loved her

c- If she was so much rated by him then surely he would have followed her plan. Which he didn't

I think that Joanna was an intelligent woman and the only woman Tywin loved and rated. In fact he allowed her to raise his kids which were his legacy. However we don't know

a- the impact Joanna's death had on Tywin. Maybe this legacy obsession was a direct result to her death. 

b- How much power she really had. I can't see Tywin allowing Joanna to go rogue as Cat Tully did. 

Regarding the betrothal, well Ladies are free to scheme behind their husband's back as long as they want. However the man will always have the final say. If Mace could keep mummy in her place in terms that matter (ex joining Renly's cause) then rest assured that Tywin would do the same.

Its pretty evident that Robert's plan in keeping Jamie close was to force Tywin to name one of his sons as heir. If Tywin married another woman then that plan would be undermined especially if that woman produces a male heir. At that point Robert would have been pressured to release Jamie because there's no way Tywin would allow a Baratheon or an imp to succeed him when he's got a male kid of his own. From Robert's perspective Its better to be indebted to your brother in law then your wife's half brother. 

I agree. If Tywin even suspected that Aerys had actually had an affair with Joanna I don't think he would have married her. She was obviously very trusted by him and valued but I'd imagine he still thought of her as his subordinate as he did everyone else, not like the relationship Ned and Cat have where they are equals more or less. This is pure speculation on my part because as you pointed out, there is very little known about Joanna. 

I hadn't actually considered the situation with Robert involved that much. Since the Rebellion Tywin was essentially under Robert's thumb, check and mate. His heir was a Baratheon and he was essentially funding Robert's lavious reign. It's hard to picture Tywin being subordinate to someone else, which makes me really annoyed that we never got to see Robert and Tywin meet. 

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48 minutes ago, Danelle said:

In WOIAF it is stated that

 

"The scurrilous rumor that Joanna Lannister gave up her maidenhead to Prince Aerys the night of his father's coronation and enjoyed a brief reign as his paramour after he ascended the Iron Throne can safely be discounted. As Pycelle insists in his letters, Tywin Lannister would scarce have taken his cousin to wife if that had been true, "for he was ever a proud man and not one accustomed to feasting upon another man's leavings." "

 

As for the other passage, there could be a number of reasons. Maybe Joanna and Rhaella had a fight. Maybe Joanna had some urgent private reason to leave. Maybe Joanna was scared of Aerys' advances and asked her friend to send her away as a pretense to leave KL and move away from Aerys. Maybe Rhaella thought Joanna and Aerys had an affair while in fact they didn't. Or maybe they did indeed have an affair and Rhaella heard of it. But all of these are maybe-s. The passage doesn't prove anything, only lends itself to various speculations.

 

So again, what proof, or at least backed-up speculation / educated guess do we have that Aerys and Joanna had an affair?

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8 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

So again, what proof, or at least backed-up speculation / educated guess do we have that Aerys and Joanna had an affair?

Nothing concrete anyway. Just people who want Tyrion/ the twins to be Targs really. Which I hope isn't true because it's much better if they're Tywin's own.

 

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31 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

I agree. If Tywin even suspected that Aerys had actually had an affair with Joanna I don't think he would have married her. She was obviously very trusted by him and valued but I'd imagine he still thought of her as his subordinate as he did everyone else, not like the relationship Ned and Cat have where they are equals more or less. This is pure speculation on my part because as you pointed out, there is very little known about Joanna. 

I hadn't actually considered the situation with Robert involved that much. Since the Rebellion Tywin was essentially under Robert's thumb, check and mate. His heir was a Baratheon and he was essentially funding Robert's lavious reign. It's hard to picture Tywin being subordinate to someone else, which makes me really annoyed that we never got to see Robert and Tywin meet. 

I think that both key players here thought one to be under the thumb of the other. Robert thought that by acting pretty with Tywin while holding Jamie as KG he was ensuring his son inheritance to Westeros vault. Tywin thought that by bankrolling Robert's debt which was a minor thing to him he was able to do whatever he wanted. By the end of GOT Robert couldn't cough, walk, sleep and drink without having either a blondie or someone in blondie's payroll looking at him. The Lannisters could assault the hand of the king and their henchman could rape and kill royalty + batter a powerful Lord's son to a pulp without suffer any consequences. 

Ultimately the deal  worked. Tywin couldn't care less how Lannister money was being spent and who would succeed him as long as its not Tyrion and Robert learnt that if he wants to live his life whoring and drinking then its better not to ask uncomfortable questions. That worked great until the idiot from the North barged in.

Robert is sometimes portrayed as some idiot who couldn't keep it in his pants and whose wife cuckolded him without him even noticing. At first value he was all that. However he was also a man who time and time again defeated much bigger opposition, the first man in Westeros to understand that a civil war was brewing up, the mind behind giving Renly rather then unlovable Stannis the Stormlands (which paved the way to a great friendship between the Tyrells and the Baratheons), the brains behind 'Westerosing' Balon's child by handling him to Ned and the mind behind marrying Joffrey to Sansa (which would have sealed an alliance between Arryn, Lannister, Baratheon and Tully). In few years the LP of the smallest region in Westeros was able to become king and was at the cusp of building a lasting alliance which was way better to what most Targs were able to achieve.

Which makes you wonder, if this man, who had so much worldly experience, didn't suspected that something was wrong with his wife. That would explain why Robert have the stormlands and dragonstone to his brothers rather then his sons and why he showed no attachment to his own sons. I can't help thinking that Robert could have just turned a blind eye to what Cersei was doing for the good of the realm. If he confronted Cersei about it then heads will have to roll and a civil war would be imminent. Thousands of people would die, his only family and that of his relatives/friends would be at risk and the kingdom would be greatly weakened. He himself could die, and Stannis was certianly not king material. Why risk all that, for a crown and a wife he never loved anyway?

 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, devilish said:

a- erm were is that stated?

 

Quote

enjoyed a brief reign as his paramour after he ascended the Iron Throne 

Regarding Joanna Lannister and her affair with Aerys, before the publication of WOIAF it was accepted that it was not consensual but once new information was given, there has been a debate. Personally I believe that they had a consesual affair. at least at the beginning and since Pycelle (who always admired Tywin) refuses to believe that Joanna became influential during her affair with Aerys, it is reasonable to assume that he is wrong.

GRRM stated that

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So, unless you want to be as oblivious as Cersei, it might be worth taking the very deep dive, so long as you keep in mind that The World shouldn't necessarily be taken as gospel. The book is written from the viewpoint of a maester at the Citadel, one who hopes to pass its knowledge on to someone sitting on the Iron Throne. As such, the author may have ... rearranged events to suit the interests of a particular royal family. "So who knows if it's really true or not!" Martin chuckled. Furthermore, the maester's knowledge comes from other scrolls that, in turn, may be unreliable. 

  So Pycelle saying that Joanna never had influence as Aerys' paramour might not be true and in reality she was his paramour and had influence.

40 minutes ago, devilish said:

b-once again, we don't know that. Tywin allowed Joanna to raise the kids and we know that he loved her. We don't know if she influenced Tywin's decision because he rated her or because he loved her

 

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A queer time to come visiting. His mother had died giving him birth, so the Martells would have found the Rock deep in mourning. His father especially. Lord Tywin seldom spoke of his wife, but Tyrion had heard his uncles talk of the love between them. In those days, his father had been Aerys's Hand, and many people said that Lord Tywin Lannister ruled the Seven Kingdoms, but Lady Joanna ruled Lord Tywin. "He was not the same man after she died, Imp," his Uncle Gery told him once. "The best part of him died with her.

 

43 minutes ago, devilish said:

b-once again, we don't know that. Tywin allowed Joanna to raise the kids and we know that he loved her. We don't know if she influenced Tywin's decision because he rated her or because he loved her

 

Kevan to Cersei

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"Every man needs someone he can trust. Tywin had me, and once your mother."

 

44 minutes ago, devilish said:

 

c- If she was so much rated by him then surely he would have followed her plan. Which he didn't

 

 

They had seperate plans.

Tywin had shared with Cersei the secret that Rhaegar was intended to be her husband. Joanna once she discovered the incest arranged the Martell betrothal as a way to put an end to it. Tywin was unaware of the agreement and when Princess Martell made the proposal he refused. Naturally since it is unlikely that Joanna had discussed it with him and he was overcome with grief.

We don't know whether Tywin would have agreed or refused the Martells, but the fact that Joanna had taken an initiative, shows that she had a big part in the decisions regarding House Lannister and she would have found a way to convince Tywin.

13 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

 

 

As for the other passage, there could be a number of reasons. Maybe Joanna and Rhaella had a fight. Maybe Joanna had some urgent private reason to leave. Maybe Joanna was scared of Aerys' advances and asked her friend to send her away as a pretense to leave KL and move away from Aerys. Maybe Rhaella thought Joanna and Aerys had an affair while in fact they didn't. Or maybe they did indeed have an affair and Rhaella heard of it. But all of these are maybe-s. The passage doesn't prove anything, only lends itself to various speculations.

 

 

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Sadly, the marriage between Aerys II Targaryen and his sister, Rhaella, was not as happy; though she turned a blind eye to most of the king's infidelities, the queen did not approve of his "turning my ladies into his whores."

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As Pycelle insists in his letters, Tywin Lannister would scarce have taken his cousin to wife if that had been true, "for he was ever a proud man and not one accustomed to feasting upon another man's leavings."

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At the great Anniversary Tourney of 272 AC, held to commemorate Aerys's tenth year upon the Iron Throne, Joanna Lannister brought her six-year-old twins Jaime and Cersei from Casterly Rock to present before the court. The king (very much in his cups) asked her if giving suck to them had "ruined your breasts, which were so high and proud." The question greatly amused Lord Tywin's rivals, who were always pleased to see the Hand slighted or made mock of, but Lady Joanna was humiliated. Tywin Lannister attempted to return his chain of office the next morning, but the king refused to accept his resignation.

Even before the publication of the WOIAF there were mentions of how Aerys lusted after Joanna and Barristan hesitates to provide Daenerys with more information. In contrast he is eager to tel her about Ser Bonifer, who never had a sexual relationship with her mother.

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"Prince Aerys … as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord's right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the … the liberties your father took during the bedding." His face reddened. "I have said too much, Your Grace. I—"

Funny how reluctant he is to tell Daenerys about Joanna.

I believe that GRRM mentioning so frequently a sexual aspect in the relationship between Aerys and Joanna, the fact that he emphasises that the WOIF is not absolutely reliable, indicates that they must have had an affair and for some reason there are several mentions. 

 

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2 minutes ago, devilish said:

I think that both key players here thought one to be under the thumb of the other. Robert thought that by acting pretty with Tywin while holding Jamie as KG he was ensuring his son inheritance to Westeros vault. Tywin thought that by bankrolling Robert's debt which was a minor thing to him he was able to do whatever he wanted. By the end of GOT Robert couldn't cough, walk, sleep and drink without having either a blondie or someone in blondie's payroll looking at him. The Lannisters could assault the hand of the king and their henchman could rape and kill royalty + batter a powerful Lord's son to a pulp without suffer any consequences. 

Ultimately the deal  worked. Tywin couldn't care less how Lannister money was being spent and who would succeed him as long as its not Tyrion and Robert learnt that if he wants to live his life whoring and drinking then its better not to ask uncomfortable questions. That worked great until the idiot from the North barged in.

Robert is sometimes portrayed as some idiot who couldn't keep it in his pants and whose wife cuckolded him without him even noticing. At first value he was all that. However he was also a man who time and time again defeated much bigger opposition, the first man in Westeros to understand that a civil war was brewing up, the mind behind giving Renly rather then unlovable Stannis the Stormlands (which paved the way to a great friendship between the Tyrells and the Baratheons), the brains behind 'Westerosing' Balon's child by handling him to Ned and the mind behind marrying Joffrey to Sansa (which would have sealed an alliance between Arryn, Lannister, Baratheon and Tully). In few years the LP of the smallest region in Westeros was able to become king and was at the cusp of building a lasting alliance which was way better to what most Targs were able to achieve.

Which makes you wonder, if this man, who had so much worldly experience, didn't suspected that something was wrong with his wife. That would explain why Robert have the stormlands and dragonstone to his brothers rather then his sons and why he showed no attachment to his own sons. I can't help thinking that Robert could have just turned a blind eye to what Cersei was doing for the good of the realm. If he confronted Cersei about it then heads will have to roll and a civil war would be imminent. Thousands of people would die, his only family and that of his relatives/friends would be at risk and the kingdom would be greatly weakened. Why risk all that, for a crown he never loved anyway?

 

 

 

The Lannisters definitely did grow to be a cancerous blob on Robert's court. In technical terms though, if Tywin had died at the beginning of AGoT say, would Cersei succeed him or Tyrion? If Cersei, then after her death would the West be ruled by House Baratheon of Casterly Rock? 

I'm with you on the assessment of Robert. The man had many failings but he definitely wasn't as dumb as some people claim. He wasn't just a conqueror. He was smart enough to listen to others, delegate authority to Jon and Stannis and to restore peace and order to Westeros. I still think it was a mistake to give Dragonstone to Stannis and the Stormlands to Renly but that's a whole other kettle of worms we need not get bogged down in here. 

As for your remarks on Cersei, well it's a tough one. Personally I've always felt that ironically enough, Robert doesn't understand women. He refuses to believe that Lyanna didn't love him, and he assumes that he is still the attractive and charismatic man that he was when he won the Crown. The fact that he isn't and that's it reflected in Cersei's unwillingness to sleep with him, would really get on his nerves hence the failed marriage (among other reasons). When we meet them, it seems to be a marriage consisting of her irritating him and him compromising to avoid another quarrel. But I can't see him tolerating her having an affair, that might be the only thing that would actually get the old Robert back. He would be furious and if Tywin rebelled, then Robert could go back to doing what he loves; war. This time he would most likely have the backing of the rest of Westeros too (definitely North, Riverlands, Vale, Stormlands, Dragonstone; Dorne maybe, Reach is wildcard) . I think by the time of AGoT he is a broken man, sick of his unloving wife, his lack of friends, his bickering brothers, and his children who are so unlike him that he is indifferent to them. I kind of got off topic here and rambled a bit..  

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37 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

The Lannisters definitely did grow to be a cancerous blob on Robert's court. In technical terms though, if Tywin had died at the beginning of AGoT say, would Cersei succeed him or Tyrion? If Cersei, then after her death would the West be ruled by House Baratheon of Casterly Rock? 

I'm with you on the assessment of Robert. The man had many failings but he definitely wasn't as dumb as some people claim. He wasn't just a conqueror. He was smart enough to listen to others, delegate authority to Jon and Stannis and to restore peace and order to Westeros. I still think it was a mistake to give Dragonstone to Stannis and the Stormlands to Renly but that's a whole other kettle of worms we need not get bogged down in here. 

As for your remarks on Cersei, well it's a tough one. Personally I've always felt that ironically enough, Robert doesn't understand women. He refuses to believe that Lyanna didn't love him, and he assumes that he is still the attractive and charismatic man that he was when he won the Crown. The fact that he isn't and that's it reflected in Cersei's unwillingness to sleep with him, would really get on his nerves hence the failed marriage (among other reasons). When we meet them, it seems to be a marriage consisting of her irritating him and him compromising to avoid another quarrel. But I can't see him tolerating her having an affair, that might be the only thing that would actually get the old Robert back. He would be furious and if Tywin rebelled, then Robert could go back to doing what he loves; war. This time he would most likely have the backing of the rest of Westeros too (definitely North, Riverlands, Vale, Stormlands, Dragonstone; Dorne maybe, Reach is wildcard) . I think by the time of AGoT he is a broken man, sick of his unloving wife, his lack of friends, his bickering brothers, and his children who are so unlike him that he is indifferent to them. I kind of got off topic here and rambled a bit..  

I suspect that Tommen would simply swap surname from Baratheon to Lannister and inherit CR. The Westerlands won't complain about too much about that especially considering the alternative (Tyrion is a dwarf, Kevan is ancient and his successor is Lancel Lannister).


Robert didn't understood women but he certainly understood men especially military men. The way Jamie acted towards his sister was far from normal. He was also able to sniff problems from miles away (ex the dragon spawn, the targ loyalist threat etc).  Surely someone who could mastermind such great alliances and was able to turn enemies into friends with such incredible ease would suspect that something between the Lannisters twins was iffy.


As said it’s all conspiracy theory. However there are plenty of hints which suggest that


a-    Robert giving away the Stormlands and Dragonstone to his brothers instead then to his sons. That’s quite unnatural especially considering that he didn’t like his own brothers very much
b-    Robert’s lack of attachment towards his children
c-    Robert constant jibes at anything that was Lannister (especially towards Jamie)
d-    His reluctance to make Tywin hand of the king


I can’t help thinking of Robert as a man who was thrown in the deep end of a role he didn’t wanted and made to marry a wife he didn’t loved. At one time he suspected that things were iffy between Jamie and Cersei but instead of investigating it further he simply didn’t gave a damn about it anymore. If Jamie wanted to ruin his life shagging that cancerous blob so be it. Robert hated the crown and he certainly didn't cared about Cersei

 For somebody who despised the crown and the Targs but loved the people around him it made sense. Taking on Tywin would pave the way to a civil war with Tywin, paving the way to the return of the Targs to Westeros. Thousands would die (including some of his mates) and the kingdom would be greatly weakened by it. If he wins, he'll end up married off to yet another Cersei. If he dies then either Stannis or the Targs would end up ruling. So what's the point? He might as well leave things as they are, with Tywin paying for his bills while making sure that what is sacred to him (ie the Stormlands) remain in Baratheon hands. Meanwhile he'll make sure that the crown is strong enough to repel the much damned dragon spawn if they ever dare setting foot to Westeros.

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1 hour ago, Danelle said:

Regarding Joanna Lannister and her affair with Aerys, before the publication of WOIAF it was accepted that it was not consensual but once new information was given, there has been a debate. Personally I believe that they had a consesual affair. at least at the beginning and since Pycelle (who always admired Tywin) refuses to believe that Joanna became influential during her affair with Aerys, it is reasonable to assume that he is wrong.

GRRM stated that

 

Even before the publication of the WOIAF there were mentions of how Aerys lusted after Joanna and Barristan hesitates to provide Daenerys with more information. In contrast he is eager to tel her about Ser Bonifer, who never had a sexual relationship with her mother.

Funny how reluctant he is to tell Daenerys about Joanna.

I believe that GRRM mentioning so frequently a sexual aspect in the relationship between Aerys and Joanna, the fact that he emphasises that the WOIF is not absolutely reliable, indicates that they must have had an affair and for some reason there are several mentions. 

 

Again, all of these only prove that Aerys was infatuated with Joanna and made his advances, while Tywin was furious with Aerys for attempting to bed his wife. There's not a single line, besides unsubstantiated rumors, that imply Joanna gave in to his advances. In fact, she seems more like a victim ("was humiliated", for example) than as a Aerys' partner in "crime". I'd wager that, if it indeed was something going on between Aerys and Joanna (and I don't believe it was), it was not consensual.

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2 hours ago, devilish said:

Robert didn't understood women but he certainly understood men especially military men. The way Jamie acted towards his sister was far from normal. He was also able to sniff problems from miles away (ex the dragon spawn, the targ loyalist threat etc).  Surely someone who could mastermind such great alliances and was able to turn enemies into friends with such incredible ease would suspect that something between the Lannisters twins was iffy.


As said it’s all conspiracy theory. However there are plenty of hints which suggest that


a-    Robert giving away the Stormlands and Dragonstone to his brothers instead then to his sons. That’s quite unnatural especially considering that he didn’t like his own brothers very much
b-    Robert’s lack of attachment towards his children
c-    Robert constant jibes at anything that was Lannister (especially towards Jamie)
d-    His reluctance to make Tywin hand of the king


I can’t help thinking of Robert as a man who was thrown in the deep end of a role he didn’t wanted and made to marry a wife he didn’t loved. At one time he suspected that things were iffy between Jamie and Cersei but instead of investigating it further he simply didn’t gave a damn about it anymore. If Jamie wanted to ruin his life shagging that cancerous blob so be it. Robert hated the crown and he certainly didn't cared about Cersei

 For somebody who despised the crown and the Targs but loved the people around him it made sense. Taking on Tywin would pave the way to a civil war with Tywin, paving the way to the return of the Targs to Westeros. Thousands would die (including some of his mates) and the kingdom would be greatly weakened by it. If he wins, he'll end up married off to yet another Cersei. If he dies then either Stannis or the Targs would end up ruling. So what's the point? He might as well leave things as they are, with Tywin paying for his bills while making sure that what is sacred to him (ie the Stormlands) remain in Baratheon hands. Meanwhile he'll make sure that the crown is strong enough to repel the much damned dragon spawn if they ever dare setting foot to Westeros.

Would he knowingly be able to stand in the same room as Jaime though? I'm not so sure. I agree with your description of Robert but it cannot be overlooked that he has a prodigious temper. I think it would be very hard to swallow his wife sleeping with her brother in front of him for so long, especially given how cocky Jaime is. I could be wrong though, I do like your theory a lot. 

I've always chalked his distant with his children down to the huge differences. We can't know for certain, but it's not a big leap to assume he would have gotten along well with Gendry and Edric. 

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4 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Again, all of these only prove that Aerys was infatuated with Joanna and made his advances, while Tywin was furious with Aerys for attempting to bed his wife. There's not a single line, besides unsubstantiated rumors, that imply Joanna gave in to his advances. In fact, she seems more like a victim ("was humiliated", for example) than as a Aerys' partner in "crime". I'd wager that, if it indeed was something going on between Aerys and Joanna (and I don't believe it was), it was not consensual.

Danelle and I had a discussion about this question in this thread.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/138688-joanna-lannister-discussion/&page=6#comment-7859070

There are arguments on both sides. Although I agree with you (and explain why in the thread) I think the case that Joanna had a consensual relationship with Aerys is a little stronger than you imply. A lot of it boils down to how we should interpret Pycelle's comments in woiaf. Some posters think that because Pycelle denies the rumours (in a shrill sort of way) and because we know that the argument he uses in doing so is technically wrong, that this is Grrm's way of implying that the rumour is true. Posters who think like this will assume the bit about Joanna being humiliated is there because Yandel is pro-Baratheon/Lannister and so could not risk implying the king's grandmother was an adulteress.

On the thread more generally. I think you have all got this the wrong way around. Tywin not marrying again is in character. The thing that is very much not in character is Tywin's failure to have Jaime removed from the kingsguard immediately after the rebellion. And it is why some of you think his not remarrying is so weird. But, his not remarrying is not strange at all, but his decision to let Jaime stay in the KG is. I think this is really, at the end of the day, a plot hole. I can think of no plausible reason for it.

The Lannisters do not care enough about the kingsguard oath for Jaime to stay in the KG for honour's sake. I also do not believe Robert and Jon refused to release Jaime in order to deprive Tywin of his heir. That is a remarkably hostile attitude to adopt to someone you've accepted as an ally (and who never fought against you) and it would be commented upon. Tywin would hold a grudge against Robert and Jon and there is no sign he did. Robert could not even have expected his son to have CR in this scenario, even assuming Tywin did not alter the succession, because he could not know Tywin would refuse to let Tyrion inherit. Jaime and Cersei could have contrived to have Jaime stay where he was, but the best time to remove Jaime from the KG was right after the sack when neither Jaime or Cersei would have known Cersei was going to marry Robert.

And it is actually this weird failure (plot hole) on Tywin's part that makes the decision not to remarry look odd. Tywin wasnt out of options though. He could pass CR to one of Cersei's children or one of Kevan's. This would not be the end of the world. Tommen could just use his Lannister name and the westermen could be encouraged to forget it was actually his mother who was a Lannister, not his father. Robert was not likely to have any control over him. Or Tywin could have just imposed a new succession settlement in favour of Kevan's children and asked his lords to agree (although if this meant passing over Cersei it could be risky). Finally, Tywin could have just demanded Jaime leave the KG, as the price for writing off the crown's debt if Robert had a price for this, which I don't think he did.

Essentially, the plot of asoiaf depends on Jaime and Cersei being together in King's Landing with Robert, but the author does not actually have a plausible scenario in which to make this happen. He wants the heirs to the Iron Throne to be bastard born products of Lannister incest, he wants Tyrion to be technically Tywin's heir, he wants Tywin to see Jaime as his heir not Tyrion. All of this make for good relationships and story dynamics. However, ultimately, within in the story he told it doesn't really make sense for this situation to have occurred.

 

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5 hours ago, theblackdragonI said:

Yes looks can be deceiving, in this case they are not. Well he's in denial about the rumours of incest, if he knew for certain he would have given up hope of Jaime inheriting long ago. Which son do you mean he expects to rule afterward? Jaime? That's a big gamble as I've pointed out earlier, he's waiting for Robert to die before him which is highly unlikely. He only does so because Cersei but I doubt Tywin was in on that plan, maybe he was we don't know. Regardless, Jaime refuses to leave the KG anyway so it's a dumb plan by Tywin to hold out for Jaime. 

He is is denial, and denial is powerful. Tywin hoped he would leave the kingsguard, but he somehow discovered honor where his hand used to be. 

 

7 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

EDITED

why? Because you know I am right, but the love you have for the man in your sig won't let you admit it.

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4 hours ago, theblackdragonI said:

Would he knowingly be able to stand in the same room as Jaime though? I'm not so sure. I agree with your description of Robert but it cannot be overlooked that he has a prodigious temper. I think it would be very hard to swallow his wife sleeping with her brother in front of him for so long, especially given how cocky Jaime is. I could be wrong though, I do like your theory a lot. 

I've always chalked his distant with his children down to the huge differences. We can't know for certain, but it's not a big leap to assume he would have gotten along well with Gendry and Edric. 

Most of what we know about Robert comes from Ned's POV. The Northerner was a good man without any shadow of doubt, but I can't help thinking that he somehow idolised Robert too much. That was clearly stated by Lyanna who had more interest in knowing Robert then he did. 

So lets study Robert's temper in great detail

a- there's a tournament at Harrenhal. Rhaegar crowns Lyanna instead of Elia and Brandon goes ballistic. Robert on the other hand simply laughs it off

b- Lyanna is kidnapped. Brandon unite a small group of people to escort him to KL. His plan was to bring justice. Once again, Robert is missing

c- The stag wins the war. Selmy (whom we presume had killed loads of Robert's people) is heavily injured. Roose suggest Robert to let him die. Robert refuse and made sure he's given the best medical attention possible

d- Balon rebels and out of defiance he burns Tywin's fleet making the stag look silly. Robert takes down Balon and yet, he forgives him as long as the Greyjoy bends the knee

e- Robert go North. His boy gets attacked by Arya's direwolf. Once again Robert shows a great level of control.

f- Gregor attacks Loras. The Hound go to toe toe with his brother. Robert intervenes which cause the hound to bend the knee with Gregor leaving the place in a foul mood. Robert could have easily got him hanged for such outrage and yet....he took the high road

g- Jamie confronts Ned. The KG ends up wounding the hand of the king whose also Robert's biggest ally. Someone with a prodigious temper would have hanged the lion. Once again Robert showed great maturity in defusing the situation.

Most of his prodigious temper is focused at the Targs. If my parents died after trying to appease the king's stupid request in searching for Rhaegar's wife, I would be pretty mad at them too especially if that very son grew up only to kidnap and rape the only woman I ever loved

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Why he had to marry? He already had heirs both children and siblings and the Lannister's succession was secured. There was no reason why he had to create more heirs especially someone who would had been a half-blood if I can use that word.

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6 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Why he had to marry? He already had heirs both children and siblings and the Lannister's succession was secured. There was no reason why he had to create more heirs especially someone who would had been a half-blood if I can use that word.

 

What heirs did he have? It's explicitly said many times that he disinherited Tyrion. Other than Jaime who can't inherit, he has no other heir bar Cersei and his brother. Who he hasn't named his heir (although he could have). Only person is Cersei, who passes the Westerlands to Tommen. Which might sound okay but there is never any inclination in the series that Tywin expects Tommen to inherit ( given that he's a Baratheon), especially after Joffrey dies you would expect Tywin to say it to Tommen when he gives him the 'what's expected of a king speech'.. So no, Tywin doesn't have any heirs. 

Perhaps the biggest evidence that Tywin has no heirs is that when he dies nobody assumes his role. Sure, Kevan has troops and some sway, but he's not even named castellan, never mind Warden of the West. 

Tywin didn't expect to die so soon, but that still doesn't excuse him of not choosing an heir to succeed him.

Your use of the word half-blood is completely irrelevant, Just because he married another Lannister doesn't give the children some superior status as 'pure blood'. This isn't harry potter, regarding genealogy, marrying a high born is the same no matter the family.  

Tywin is focused on his immediate family legacy. If it was simply a matter of the Lannister name succeeding him then he would have named Kevan his heir after Tyrion was born. 

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8 hours ago, Chaircat Meow said:

Danelle and I had a discussion about this question in this thread.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/138688-joanna-lannister-discussion/&page=6#comment-7859070

There are arguments on both sides. Although I agree with you (and explain why in the thread) I think the case that Joanna had a consensual relationship with Aerys is a little stronger than you imply. A lot of it boils down to how we should interpret Pycelle's comments in woiaf. Some posters think that because Pycelle denies the rumours (in a shrill sort of way) and because we know that the argument he uses in doing so is technically wrong, that this is Grrm's way of implying that the rumour is true. Posters who think like this will assume the bit about Joanna being humiliated is there because Yandel is pro-Baratheon/Lannister and so could not risk implying the king's grandmother was an adulteress.

I know and concur, both you and Danelle made fine points in that thread. It's just that, well, I think that absolutely everything implies that Joanna was not a willing participant in Aerys' advances. From Aerys' comments and Tywin's personality, through Tywin's brothers' remarks, to Joanna's behaviour when confronted by Aerys- everything points out to the conclusion that Joanna wasn't interested in Aerys. This scenario relies on logic and has every character behave consistently: Aerys behaves exactly like a petty arrogant womanizer whose crush turned him down, Joanna behaves exactly like a women confronted with very much unwanted advances, Tywin behaves exactly like a man in love unable to directly confront the guy who molests his beloved wife, his love of Joanna points out towards lack of manipulation of Tywin's feelings from Joanna's part (we know how Tywin deals with women who he suspects of using Lannister men to advance in power - Ellen Reyne, Tytos's mistress, Tysha...) etc. Opposite opinion, IMO, doesn't provide the same.

 

As for trying to free Jaime from KG after Robert's rebellion - I think it's one of these "emperor is naked" moments. The social taboo of "KG serve for life" is so strong that almost nobody ever considers that it can be broken at all - much like "guest right" or "septons do not take wives". In Tywin's (and everyone else's) mind, releasing Jaime from KG is not an option, since KG "must" serve until they die. Tywin basically said as much in ASOS to Jaime: "Well, only now that Joffrey dismissed Barristan, we can use that as a precedent and dismiss you from KG". Else, I agree that asking Robert to release Jaime from KG in return for dismissing Crown's debts to Castelry Rock would be a perfect solution.

And while we're at it, I can't help but notice that Tywin, for someone so thoroughly obsessed with Lannister name and legacy, does an awful job of maintaing it. Crucial to every dynasty is the concept of heirship, and Tywin utterly fails there. Let's say that he suddenly got killed in a hunting accident in the beginning of AGOT - who exactly would succeed him as Lord of CR? Jaime, who was in KG? Cersei, who is a women in a partiachal system and currently a queen? Tyrion - whom Tywin hated and explicitly did not want him as a heir? Cersei's kids? Kevan or his children? Somebody else? While every other lord in 7K made his heir obvious and apparent to all, Tywin didn't. I honestly have no clue whom exactly did Tywin plan to be his successor? Whoever that was, he made no preparations whatsoever.

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6 hours ago, devilish said:

Most of what we know about Robert comes from Ned's POV. The Northerner was a good man without any shadow of doubt, but I can't help thinking that he somehow idolised Robert too much. That was clearly stated by Lyanna who had more interest in knowing Robert then he did. 

So lets study Robert's temper in great detail

a- there's a tournament at Harrenhal. Rhaegar crowns Lyanna instead of Elia and Brandon goes ballistic. Robert on the other hand simply laughs it off

b- Lyanna is kidnapped. Brandon unite a small group of people to escort him to KL. His plan was to bring justice. Once again, Robert is missing

c- The stag wins the war. Selmy (whom we presume had killed loads of Robert's people) is heavily injured. Roose suggest Robert to let him die. Robert refuse and made sure he's given the best medical attention possible

d- Balon rebels and out of defiance he burns Tywin's fleet making the stag look silly. Robert takes down Balon and yet, he forgives him as long as the Greyjoy bends the knee

e- Robert go North. His boy gets attacked by Arya's direwolf. Once again Robert shows a great level of control.

f- Gregor attacks Loras. The Hound go to toe toe with his brother. Robert intervenes which cause the hound to bend the knee with Gregor leaving the place in a foul mood. Robert could have easily got him hanged for such outrage and yet....he took the high road

g- Jamie confronts Ned. The KG ends up wounding the hand of the king whose also Robert's biggest ally. Someone with a prodigious temper would have hanged the lion. Once again Robert showed great maturity in defusing the situation.

Most of his prodigious temper is focused at the Targs. If my parents died after trying to appease the king's stupid request in searching for Rhaegar's wife, I would be pretty mad at them too especially if that very son grew up only to kidnap and rape the only woman I ever loved

I'll admit, you've persuaded me to a degree. I fear I've been caught up in the Baratheon-Fury-Strength complex. It just seems like a natural step that such a warrior as Robert would have a massive temper, especially seeing how he's described during the Rebellion. But as you've pointed out, he had cause during the Rebellion and showed leniency after it. 

He's definitely justified in his attitude towards the Targs. But I still have trouble, and it most likely is down to me, but I really can't picture the Demon of the Trident keeping his peace for 15/16 years as his wife carried on an affair with her brother. This was the charismatic, giant who smashed armies and made all fear his name. I'm a huge Robert fan (and Tywin fan admittedl), but it seems unlikely that he would allow such a slight to his honour as king to go on for so long. But at the same time, as you've correctly pointed out, it was Brandon not Robert who went to KL. He does seem to pursue a very conciliatory policy from what we've seen him and heard of him.  To sum up, you've left me in the lurch.

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