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Maggy the Frog: The Red Priestess & Cersei: The Unreliable Narrator


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Cersei, The Unreliable Narrator

When reading the famous Maggy the Frog chapter in AFFC, we have to remember, these are events that took place 24 years ago when Cersei was only ten years old.  Unless you have a photographic memory you probably have a hard time remembering the details of events that occurred 24 years ago, especially if you were ten years old at the time.  I have noted some discrepancies in the Maggy dream that lead me to question who Maggy the Frog really is.

In the Cersei chapter (36) of A Feast for Crows, Cersei has the famous nightmare about her and her two friends visiting Maggy the Frog.  It seems this is a recurring nightmare that she has from time to time as the passage starts “She dreamt an old dream”.  The dream is quite detailed and seemingly accurate as events are told in a vivid, logical pattern.  Cersei thinks about this encounter throughout the books when she is not asleep and is fixated of the younger, more beautiful queen and the valonqar.  It is evident this encounter made quite the impression on our young Cersei and continues to preoccupy her mind in present times.

In the dream, Cersei goes into the tent and sees  The only light came from an iron brazier shaped like a basilisk’s head, a dim green light that made the walls of the tent look cold and dead and rotten”.   Yet, she second guesses her memory mentioningHad it been that way in life as well? Cersei could not seem to remember”.  Somewhere in her mind she can sense that something is possibly wrong with this scene, but her dreaming mind keeps going, moving on to things she seems more certain of.  She then wakes the sleeping sorceress.

“Give us our foretelling, or I’ll go to my lord father and have you whipped for insolence.” “Please,” begged Melara. “Just tell us our futures, then we’ll go.” “Some are here who have no futures,” Maggy muttered in her terrible deep voice. She pulled her robe about her shoulders and beckoned the girls closer. “Come, if you will not go. Fools. Come, yes. I must taste your blood.” – AFFC Cersei

Later in the dream Maggy tastes their blood and tells Cersei and Melara things they did not want to hear.  To the reader, it seems Maggy’s foretelling powers are dependent on Maggy tasting their blood.  There is also a lady in Braavos that has this ability so we tend not question this much.  What some of us overlook is the possibility that Maggy already knew the fate of Melara and possibly Cersei as she had muttered “some are here who have no futures” before any drop of blood had even touched Maggy’s mouth.  Is it possible Cersei is remembering the events incorrectly?  Is it possible Maggy in reality uses other methods or abilities?  What gave me pause and led me to believe Cersei is an unreliable narrator in her Maggy dream is the following passage:

“She thought of Joffrey, clawing at his neck. In his last moments he had looked to her in desperate appeal, and a sudden memory had stopped her heart; a drop of red blood hissing in a candle flame, a croaking voice that spoke of crowns and shrouds, of death at the hands of the valonqar. -AFFC Cersei (28)

In this passage, Cersei has some sort of PTSD flashback where some type of repressed memory just comes shooting out at her.  In this memory, she sees a “drop of red blood hissing in a candle flame”.  In the dream where Cersei herself admitted she couldn’t quite remember, she mentioned:

 The only light came from an iron brazier shaped like a basilisk’s head, a dim green light that made the walls of the tent look cold and dead and rotten.  Had it been that way in life as well? Cersei could not seem to remember”.- AFFC Cersei

So you see, Cersei’s flashback and her dream are not matching up.  In her dream the only fire is a brazier burning green flame and Maggy is sucking on her finger.  In her PTSD flashback, however, she sees a candle present and a drop of red blood is going into the flame.  Could it be this is how the scenario really went and Maggy’s gifts are powered somehow through flame rather than her palate?  If Maggy had the ability to use flames for divination this could explain her knowing of Melara’s fate even before any blood was spilt. 

At one point, I dismissed this and thought Cersei may have somehow, someway had a vision of the leech scene taking place.  Maybe the magic was strong enough for Cersei to be affected in her mind since she first thought of Joffrey.  I eventually decided the leech scene is not what Cersei saw, the scene with the leeches uses a brazier and not a candle and there are no drops of blood, just three leeches shriveling in the flame.  Additionally, I agree with the arguments thrown around that believes the leeches were a farse Mel was putting on and that she had knowledge of their pending deaths. So when it comes down to it, Cersei had a PTSD flash back to what Cersei actually saw, which is a drop of blood hissing in a candle flame.   The memory of the lone green brazier and the way in which Maggy foretold their futures is likely unreliable.

Now, what if Maggy does use flame for her sorcery?  What does this mean to us?

“Lady Sybell's Grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as low born as that smuggler that Stannis keeps. And the Grandmother was some woman he'd brought back from the east. A frightening old crone, supposed to be a priestess. Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like." -ASOS Tyrion

BTW, Yes,  I think she is Mel. 

Maggy the Frog

So what do we know about Maggy now?  We know there are inconsistencies in the details of how she can foretell the future and her methods may include flame.  We know Tyrion mentioned she was supposed to be a priestess.  We know she came from the east and we know she had a tricky name.  There is one thing I feel is not discussed enough when it comes to this character.  This is what Maggy has actual knowledge of.  Maggy the Frog, a woman from the east is the wife/widow of a spice merchant and mother of a petty lord.  This woman with magical, political and economic ties arguably has knowledge of

1. the fall of the Targaryen dynasty,

2. the rise of Robert Baratheon,

3. the bastards of Robert Baratheon,

4. the deaths of Cersei and her children

5. possibly the death of Robert Baratheon

6. possibly the paternal nature of Cersei’s children. 

 “Is that what troubles you, Your Grace?” “Melara? No. I can hardly recall what she looked like. It is just … the maegi knew how many children I would have, and she knew of Robert’s bastards. Years before he’d sired even the first of them, she knew. She promised me I should be queen, but said another queen would come …” Younger and more beautiful, she said. “… another queen, who would take from me all I loved”.

Yes, Maggy the Frog had knowledge of these things.  Presumably this could be the most valuable knowledge and accurate prophesy we have seen yet in the books.  So why do we not question what a woman with her connections and gifts could/would do with such information?  Tell me, what do you think a reputed sorceress, the wife/widow of a wealthy spice merchant and mother of a petty lord could do with such knowledge?

What is in a name?

We are never told of Maggy the Frog’s real name although Tyrion mentions No one could pronounce her real name”.  Coincidentally, Cersei mentions something very similar:

She was not always hideous, or so they said. I don’t recall the woman’s name. Something long and eastern and outlandish. The smallfolk used to call her Maggy.” “Maegi?” “Is that how you say it?

Here we learn that Maggy is actually a Maegi with an eastern name that was difficult for the smallfolk to use so she was instead referred to as simply “Maegi” or “Maggy”.  We also see Tyrion sneak in the information of Maggy supposedly being a priestess.  It is peculiar in the way Maggy’s real name is never said, GRRM could have easily done without this little detail.  Instead, he mentions this bit of information twice. 

In ACOK we are introduced to Melisandre Of Asshai, a shadowbinder and a priestess of R’hllor.   Something we learn from Melisandre’s POV in ADWD is that Mel had been a slave child called ‘Melony’, who was most likely sold to the Red Temple, and at some point, changed her name to Melisandre.  What caught my eye when I was doing a re-read of the Maggy dream were the names of friends who also visited Maggy along with Cersei: Jeyne and Melara.  The friend Jeyne had first caught my eye as we later discover this is also the name of her great-granddaughter, Jeyne Westerling (you know, the one with the heart-shaped face).  It is a nice little coincidence that is more than likely an intentional nod.  Then, I decided to look closer at the other friend who accompanied Cersei for her fortune telling, Melara.  Her name has that same Mel derivative as Melisandre.  I don’t think Melara herself is connected to Melisandre any more than Cersei’s friend Jeyne is connected to Jeyne Westerling.  What I do think is that these are some very subtle hints and nods to Maggy’s identity.

Knowing what we have just learned, would it surprise you to also learn the symbolism behind the frog is transformation?  Although there are many cultures with tales of frogs, the Western and European views of symbolism focus on the Frog's metamorphosis (egg, tadpole, fully formed amphibian) to symbolize resurrection and spiritual evolution. If you have ever heard the fairytale of the princess and the frog you get the idea.  Coincidentally, GRRM uses the frog transformation trope with Quentyn and gives a little bit of a shout out to this very fairy tale:

“In the Seven Kingdoms there are children’s tales of frogs who turn into enchanted princes when kissed by their true love.” Smiling at the Dornish knights, she switched back to the Common Tongue. “Tell me, Prince Quentyn, are you enchanted?”

So, when Maggy the Frog was imagined by our writer, is it possible transformation and metamorphosis symbolism was intended as well?  Yes, I think so. 

Origin and language

I will put forth the suggestion that Maggy can speak three languages: High Valyrian, The Common Tongue and a third, less common language.  We all know Maggy can speak the Common Tongue and we later learn from Cersei Maggy had spoken High Valyrian to her.  It’s High Valyrian, it means little brother.” She had asked Septa Saranella about the word, after Melara drowned”.  What some of us may overlook is this line:   

“There was a jar of some thick potion by her elbow, sitting on a table. She snatched it up and threw it into the old woman’s eyes. In life the crone had screamed at them in some queer foreign tongue, and cursed them as they fled her tent.”

Although Cersei did not know the meaning of the single word “Valonqar”, I do believe Cersei would be able to distinguish High Valyrian if someone was rambling in sentences to her.  Casterly Rock is located next to Lannisport which is a big port with traders from the free cities who all speak dialects of this language.  Additionally, her brother Tyrion mentions he can speak some High Valyrian and “learned to read High Valyrian at his maester’s knee”.  Cersei’s septa could also speak High Valyrian.  I believe Maggy was speaking a language that is more eastern than the free cities as Cersei describes it as “some queer foreign tongue”.  This is supported by Maggy’s husband being a trader in Saffron which is a rare spice from eastern Essos, said to be worth more than gold.  We hear of saffron coming from Qarth and Yi Ti, but there is also a passageway by the Jade Sea known as the Saffron Straits. The Saffron Straits are most likely named for the passage and flow of Saffron which would be quite profitable to trade in places like Asshai where gold is so plentiful.  Coincidentally,

the ancient port of Asshai stands at the end of a long wedge of land, on the point where the Jade Sea meets the Saffron Straits”

Guess what comes out of Asshai?.....Maegis come out of Asshai  ;)

Magic had died in the west when the Doom fell on Valyria […] Dany had always heard that the east was different. It was said that manticores prowled the islands of the Jade Sea, that basilisks infested the jungles of Yi Ti, that spellsingers, warlocks, and aeromancers practiced their arts openly in Asshai, while shadowbinders and bloodmages worked terrible sorceries in the black of night. 

So where is my best bet for where Mr. Saffron trader met Miss Magic Lady?  Asshai.  I also believe the third queer language spoken by Maggy is the language of Asshai.

The red woman walked round the fire three times, praying once in the speech of Asshai, once in High Valyrian, and once in the Common Tongue.

Appearance and Characteristics

Within the storyline despite such a large variety of characters, there are only two women who are described as having deep voices, Maggy the Frog and Melisandre.  In fact, if you take a look at the comparison you will see the voice descriptions are very similar:

Mel

“Maester,” said Lady Melisandre, her deep voice flavored with the music of the Jade Sea. “You ought take more care.” As ever, she wore red head to heel, a long loose gown of flowing silk as bright as fire,

 Maggy

“Your Grace?” said a voice behind her. “Do I intrude?” It was a woman’s voice, flavored with the accents of the east. For an instant she feared that Maggy the Frog was speaking to her from the grave.

Just tell us our futures, then we’ll go.” “Some are here who have no futures,” Maggy muttered in her terrible deep voice. She pulled her robe about her shoulders and beckoned the girls closer.

When it comes to Maggy the Frog’s true youthful appearance we do not have much to go off of, but do hear that she was once beautiful.  One person we do have a good description of is Melisandre.  She is a strikingly beautiful woman with striking features.  Her heart-shaped face being a rare trait, only attributed to two characters in the written books (four if you also count So Spake Martin).  I repeat, the only characters with heart-shaped faces in the books are Melisandre and Maggy’s great-grandaughter. While we don’t know much of a young Maggy, we do have a good description of Jeyne Westerling who Catelyn mentions is ‘undeniably’ pretty with a heart-shaped face. 

Yes, this pretty little girl is a queen, I must remember that. She was pretty, undeniably, with her chestnut curls and heart-shaped face, and that shy smile. Slender, but with good hips, Catelyn noted. She should have no trouble bearing children, at least.

Just about everyone is on board with the idea Melisandre is wearing a glamour to disguise her real age.  For Melisandre, her appearance is a tool.  Melisandre has always been careful to present herself as beautiful, seductive and powerful as she feels this is the only way she can persuade others to her cause.  Additionally, her weapon of seduction would be pretty much useless if she looked like a diseased old woman (No sexy time=No shadow babies L ).  It would not surprise me if she is glamouring a younger version of herself as many theories suggest.  Because she is glamouring herself, this really opens the possibilities for her true appearance to look any number of ways which could easily be quite hideous. 

The old woman’s eyes were yellow, and crusted all about with something vile. In Lannisport it was said that she had been young and beautiful when her husband had brought her back from the east with a load of spices, but age and evil had left their marks on her. She was short, squat, and warty, with pebbly greenish jowls. Her teeth were gone and her dugs hung down to her knees.  You could smell sickness on her if you stood too close, and when she spoke her breath was strange and strong and foul.

I know what you are thinking, where are the red eyes?  The red hair?  This lady is short and Mel is tall.  When it comes to Maggy’s description, I can see a few explanations that include conditions of aging and the unreliable narrator.  I have already analyzed certain discrepancies of Cersei’s dream and had noted Cersei herself even questioned her recollection in the midst of her own dream; coincidentally Cersei admittingly can hardy recall what another character looked who was also present in the Maggy dream sequence:

“Do you still grieve for this friend of your childhood?” Qyburn asked. “Is that what troubles you, Your Grace?” “Melara? No. I can hardly recall what she looked like. It is just … the maegi knew how many children I would have, and she knew of Robert’s bastards. Years before he’d sired even the first of them, she knew. She promised me I should be queen, but said another queen would come …” Younger and more beautiful, she said. “… another queen, who would take from me all I loved.”

I believe Cersei was being truthful when she tells Qyburn she can hardly remember what Melara looked like.  Cersei tends to speak quite candidly around Qyburn, she sees him as someone she can trust and confide in. This passage is a particularly soul bearing moment for Cersei as this is the first time she had revealed Maggy’s prophesy to anyone (Cersei spills the beans to Taena Merryweather later on).

If Father had known what she said to me, he would have had her tongue out. Cersei had never told anyone, though, not even Jaime. Melara said that if we never spoke about her prophecies, we would forget them.” 

Even though she cannot recall what Melara looks like, the Maggy dream describes Melara as older, bolder, and prettier than Jeyne in a freckly sort of way.  This is just another small inconsistency within Cersei’s dream.  Cersei is just narcissistic enough to disregard the details of others around her.  Additionally, Cersei was the young age of ten when the events took place.  “Taena took her hand and stroked it. “This was a hateful woman, old and sick and ugly. You were young and beautiful, full of life and pride.”  Now, if Cersei can hardly remember what Melara looks like; someone who was there that same night; someone whom she had likely killed, who is to say the description of Maggy is not unreliable as well?

I want to touch on Maggy’s eyes for one moment.  Besides the once young and beautiful part, Maggy sounds seriously hideous.  What I see is Cersei focusing on the what age and disease does to the body.  Yellow eyes crusted with something vile really gives the picture of a disease process rather than a true eye color.  Cersei even remembered how age had left its mark, and she could “smell the sickness on her”.  Jaundice affects the whites of the eyes causing them to turn yellow and give the skin a sallow coloring.  In fact, liver disease in addition to causing jaundice, can cause a foul body odor and a distinct musty rotten odor to the breath in it’s advanced stages.   Additionally, there are many exudative eye conditions that can cause a crusted yellow appearance.  What Cersei is really recalling is a woman riddled with sickness and disease rather than an old woman with a naturally yellow eye color.  Maggy’s eyes could in reality be any color really; blue or green or brown…or even red.

Before we move on, I want to talk about talk about Maggy’s age for a bit.  If Jeyne Westerling is Maggy’s great-granddaughter. This would make Maggy the Frog’s birth very easily and very perfectly fit the D&E Blackfyre era.  This is the same time Melisandre is theorized to have been born.  Basically, the timeline fits perfectly.

Sorcery and powers

So if Maggy and Mel are the same person they should have similar magical powers and abilities. So the first thing we need to do is compare the two.  According to rumors, it is said Maggy could “curse a man or make him fall in love, summon demons and foretell the future. By the way, has anyone ever noticed it mentions she could summon demons?  I know most people dismiss this as an exaggeration, but let’s play the devil’s advocate and evaluate the truth of the rest of the information.  The passage says Maggy can:

  1. Foretell the future: True, without a doubt Maggy can see into the future.
  2. Curse a man: I would say this is true in a fashion as many view prophesy as a curse, a great example is Cersei who mentions “Maggy’s curse” of the valonqar.  “Father found no better man. Instead he gave me Robert, and Maggy’s curse bloomed like some poisonous flower
  3. Make a man fall in love: This is true if you believe the rumors of how Maggy the Frog snagged her wealthy spice merchant husband: “She was mother to a petty lord, a wealthy merchant upjumped by my grandsire. This lord’s father had found her whilst trading in the east. Some say she cast a spell on him, though more like the only charm she needed was the one between her thighs. She was not always hideous, or so they said. I don’t recall the woman’s name. Something long and eastern and outlandish”.  We also hear love potions was one of the things Maggy was famous for:  “Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like."

There are also theories on how Jeyne was able to seduce Robb, additionally it is inferred in the Tyrion Chapter of ASOS that Sybell Spicer wed Gawen Westerling under suspiciously similar circumstances (I would love to go down that rabbit hole about Sybell right now, but just don’t have the time at the moment). 

When I evaluate these rumors of Maggy’s powers I see there is more truth to them than we think.  So, if these other rumors of her powers have truth to them, why are we so quick to dismiss the rumor that she can summon demons?  Couldn’t there be a shred of truth to this as well? 

We are aware Melisandre can foretell the future and in that sense “curse” people with their future and she can certainly bring forth shadow demons.  So, what about making a man fall in love, can she do this?  Yes!  Despite her being a beautiful seductive woman, she has mentioned she carries concealed powders and potions with her that have many powers and properties, one of them being lust. 

“A smoke for truth, a smoke for lust, a smoke for fear, and the thick black smoke that could kill a man outright." 

Now there are some inconsistencies that must be addressed; however, I do not see these as inconsistencies.  The inconsistency that must be addressed is Maggy’s prophesy is very accurate and Mel has been off the mark with her prophesy lately.  In fact, Maggy’s prophesy is so accurate it is uncanny how many things she got right.  Shouldn’t Mel be some kind of fortune telling savant as well?

 “Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames. Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow. “

Let’s play the devil’s advocate again and assume she is not just being boastful in her mind’s eye.  We are talking about the daughter of a powerful greenseer and a reputed sorceress (B+S=M is a good bet).  A woman who has trained for “years beyond count” honing all kinds of dark arts, not just a priestess of R’hllor but a shadowbinder to boot.  The woman is literally a triple threat.  It is possible she is not boasting and has some serious skill that has been a little hampered lately.  If you look at the detail Melisandre goes into when she describes the grey woman riding on the horse she paints a very, very vivid picture.  She knew of Davos’s plans easy peasy, she foretold Jon Snow’s stab fest, she saw “Renly” defeat Stannis beneath King’s Landing.  She has seen much and more.  What she sees is what her god allows her to see; some of it is strikingly accurate as well.  I believe Maggy had received an accurate vision because she was intended to have an accurate one.  With Maggy we only have one encounter to go off of.  One very accurate prophesy does not mean she doesn’t miss the mark from time to time herself.

 I am up to eight pages on a word document so I need to wrap this up.  Basically, I think Cersei’s flashback is the real deal for what went on in Maggy’s tent.  Maggy fits the bill for everything that Melisandre is.  When it comes down to it this is a plausible scenario.  I have more to touch on dealing with blood magic and aging, sybell spicer, implications to the current storyline, and the leech scene. Unfortunately, this thing is getting way too long as it is, but just remember:

Why did Melisandre seek out Stannis? Did she see him in her flames and decided to seek him out on her own, or is she on a mission on behalf of the red priests? It doesn't seem at any point as if the latter is the case, when you compare to Moqorro who has been sent out by the priesthood.

You're right. Melisandre has gone to Stannis entirely on her own, and has her own agenda.

Here it is.  What are your thoughts?


 

 


 
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"We are talking about the daughter of a powerful greenseer and a reputed sorceress" gives me the impression that you believe that B+S=M, so are you implying that Jeyne Westerling is a descendent of Melisandre and thusly a "secret Targaryen" or at least a descendent of House Targaryen?

Damn, maybe Jeyne really is "the younger and more beautiful queen"!

 

But seriously, I personally think this is all well analysed and you bring up some very good points! Perhaps only the coming books will tell what might happen with it.

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Just now, Vaedys Targaryen said:

"We are talking about the daughter of a powerful greenseer and a reputed sorceress" gives me the impression that you believe that B+S=M, so are you implying that Jeyne Westerling is a descendent of Melisandre and thusly a "secret Targaryen" or at least a descendent of House Targaryen?

Damn, maybe Jeyne really is "the younger and more beautiful queen"!

 

But seriously, I personally think this is all well analysed and you bring up some very good points! Perhaps only the coming books will tell what might happen with it.

B+S=M is a pretty good bet. 

I hate to use the word "secret Targ".  If this is the case Jeyne would have about as much Targ blood as Shireen who I don't really see as a Targaryen. 

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Nicely put together! You manage to make a good case for how Maegi the Frog was obviously trained in similar abilities as Melisandre. And Jeyne Westerling having the heart-shaped face certainly begs the question.

However, I cannot match "a younger, more beautiful queen" with Mel backing Stannis as Azor Ahai and originally convincing him to take the throne. Mel's visions aren't off, but her interpretation of those visions are off, because of her skewed Rh'llorist mind. The Frog seems to lack this type of flaw. Meanwhile, we know from Dany's Maegi that many people go to Asshai as apprentices to learn certain types of magic there (such as priestesses of Rh'lorr, and maesters, and others). Nobody is born in Asshai. They all go there and learn the craft: shadowbinding, blood magic, fire magic, etc. Mel saying she is one of the best of her order says little, because she's not saying she's the best of Asshai but the best of the Rh'llor faction, which is not even accurate, as Moqorro's prophesying is far more accurate as his are less skewed by interpretation. We know there are people of her order who are as good or perhaps even better at Ashai magic and propehecy than she is, and there are people trained in the same magics of Asshai who aren't even Rh'llorists. And especially the Frog seems to have no particular connection to being a Rh'llorist, while Mel is a total believer in it, thinking of other gods as false or fake or evil. Her Melony "lot" memory indicates she was a slave child bought by the Rh'llorists at a very young age still (no matter how long ago that was), and thus why she's brainwashed in that sort of dualistic right-wrong belief. The Frog seemed to work for herself, while Mel works for Rh'llor. So, there's too much off to convince me that Frog = Melisandre.

That said, I agree there are pointers to Mel. As you nicely point out - the brazier in the dream vs the candle flashback. The brazier is a dream insertion, and GRRM specifically hints it's a dream element rather than one of memory. The candle was what was used. So, GRRM wrote in an item into a dream that Mel used to burn leeches. There is the heart-shaped face for Melisandre and Jeyne Westerling, and we have a Mel in Melara. All those elements show imo that there is a connection between the Frog and Melisandre beyond both being trained in Ashai. The blood drop in the flames further hints there likely is a blood tie. So, let us consider the presence of a Jeyne and Mel(ara) in front of the Frog. Is it possible there are 2 branches? Does Mel have a sister in the Frog? Or is the Frog her mother, Seastar? Having Jeyne run away and Melara remain interested to learn of her own fate, and asking for the "wrong brother" seems to indicate we are looking at a split branch. Mel and Jeyne are children, and thus represent the "next" generation, while the Frog is a crone, the generation that once was. Seastar was rumored to be a strong sorceress, and she is free from Rhllor brainwashing. 

So, while you don't convince me that Frog = Mel, you have gathered and pointed out enough evidence for me to suspect that Frog is a relative of Mel, and likely may be Seastar, alternatively a sister (a twin?).

On another tangent, and something you may look into: Mel-names in mythology. The Mel comes from Meli or Mela, meaning "honey". Melissa was a title used in Crete, Greece and Hittite (Turkey) empire for priestesses, especially those who served a Great Mother goddess, and stems from the bronze age. It was also a title used as epiteth for such Great Mother godesses, such as Athena, Demeter, the Cretan Poppy Goddess, basically calling them "queen bees". A cult or order was comapred to a beehive, with 1 queen, served by many female bees who don't reproduce. Only the Queen bee may reproduce. She flies out when sexually mature to where male bees gather and hope to be so lucky they can get to mate with her. The ejaculation is so powerful of the "lucky" male bee is so powerful that it tears off their penis and thus they die. And then the queen bee returns to the hive and lays thousands of eggs her worker bees feed with nectar and honey, deciding by the amount and quality of the nectar whether the egg ends up being male, female worker or future queen. Back to mythology. The Oracle of Delphi was also granted the title of Melissa, however she served Apollo, not a female earth goddess, which is odd at the surface. But Apollo "stole" Delphi from Gaia by killing her earth snake child. Originally, Delphi was an oracle worker bee dedicated to a Mother Earth Goddess, where at some point a male god took over the cult (quite basically a king bee, which is an oxymoron). If we then look at the Eurydice myth, who "dances" in a meadow with "flowers" on her wedding but ends up killed by a snakebite running away from Apollo's son, who was an agricultural god knowing the secret of beekeeping, we likely have a mythological echo of patriarchity suppressing goddess worship. We see this queen-bee-prophecy link again in the bible with Deborah (that name means honey bee in the Jewish language), who was a leader of her people and a prophetess, while the book of kings in which she appears and fights, has Samson as the last king who beats a lion and has bees born out of the carcass. This element features also in Eurydice's myth, as her "sisters" curse her assailant and to get rid of the curse he has to kill his oxes and let bees be born out of the skin.

So, Melisandre's name as a priestess of a cult and able to prophesy, together with the "lot" allusion is no coincidence whatsoever. And like the Oracle of Delphi she serves a "male god" in her mind, which is inappropriate in relation to bee symbolism. Whereas the Frog acts more like a Queen Bee herself, had children, and she talks of younger queen (bees) replacing the older queen (bee).

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Just now, sweetsunray said:

However, I cannot match "a younger, more beautiful queen" with Mel backing Stannis as Azor Ahai and originally convincing him to take the throne.

Hey SSR, where did you get from my post that Mel or Jeyne was the younger more beautiful Queen?  I don't really think that is the case.  I think we have differing opinions on the possibility that Mel is purposely intended to be off the mark.  Having one prophesy to go off with Maggy is not a whole lot to make a generalization that she is always more accurate in her interpretation. One of the things with Mel is that she is constantly put on the spot with people asking specifics like who, when, where, how.  Mel does see things but when she has to put a name to things she has never seen before she can only really only guess when she is put on the spot.  Maggy has the luxury of being a little more vague in that sense.   

BTW, Yes!  I do see a line a female sorceresses in a Great Expectations/Morgan le Fey kind of way with lots of possible connections (going back to princess Saera). When you mention twin sister, have you thought about the ghost of high heart (you know the one in the riverlands with the red eyes)?  Not much else to go off, but intriguing nonetheless.

Excellent myth analysis.  Have you ever thought Melissa+Cassandra=Melisandre for etymology sake?

     

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Crowfood's daughter said:

Hey SSR, where did you get from my post that Mel or Jeyne was the younger more beautiful Queen? 

Actually I did not mean Mel of Jeyne were the younger more beautiful queen in a literal sense, not myself, nor did I take it as your meaning. What I meant is that I cannot put Mel together as being the one who prophesies a younger more beautiful Queen to Cersei for the same time period that Mel is all about Stannis and trying to put him on the Iron Throne.

GoHH is a crannogwoman imo. GoHH =/= Frog.

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3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually I did not mean Mel of Jeyne were the younger more beautiful queen in a literal sense, not myself, nor did I take it as your meaning. What I meant is that I cannot put Mel together as being the one who prophesies a younger more beautiful Queen to Cersei for the same time period that Mel is all about Stannis and trying to put him on the Iron Throne.

GoHH is a crannogwoman imo. GoHH =/= Frog.

Three feet tall is pretty short for Crannog standards.  Dwarf was always my first guess, a potential greenseer who missed her calling. What I was getting at was GoHH= Maggy twin.  It would work with the mentioned symbolism. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Crowfood's daughter said:

Three feet tall is pretty short for Crannog standards.  Dwarf was always my first guess, a potential greenseer who missed her calling. What I was getting at was GoHH= Maggy twin.  It would work with the mentioned symbolism. 

 

Not really. She has no queen-bee references. Her oracle related symbolism is straightforward Norse - the seer that Odin calls from the grave to prophesy about Ragnarok and Baldr's dreams. There's no Asshai stuff about her, not even that of sorcery, but pure weirwood related green dreaming and Old Gods.

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3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Not really. She has no queen-bee references. Her oracle related symbolism is straightforward Norse - the seer that Odin calls from the grave to prophesy about Ragnarok and Baldr's dreams. There's no Asshai stuff about her, not even that of sorcery, but pure weirwood related green dreaming and Old Gods.

Wow.  You are on another level with the mythology symbolism that I dare not tread. :bowdown: I am going to have to take your word.  What I was referring to was the more straightforward twin or sister symbolism in the Jeyne/Melara sequence you were mentioning. I know you had brought up the twin or sister concept. The only twin of Maggy's (or Mel) a can see as a possibility is GoHH.  You have me intrigued, would you have any suggestions for possibilities? 

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3 minutes ago, Crowfood's daughter said:

What I was referring to was the more straightforward twin or sister symbolism in the Jeyne/Melara sequence you were mentioning. I know you had brought up the twin or sister concept. The only twin of Maggy's (or Mel) a can see as a possibility is GoHH.  You have me intrigued, would you have any suggestions for possibilities? 

Well, if Frog is not Seastar then I propose Maggy is Mel's twin. If Frog is Seastar then her Spicer children are half siblings of Mel. Basically Mel is one branch of Seastar blood and Jeyne is another branch of Seastar blood.

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Quite splendid to read!  The question of blood, leaches and candles brings to mind Marwyn.  When Sam enters Marwyn's chambers; he smells something burnt in a brazier and the glass candle is burning giving off strange light.  Marywyn tells him that blood and fire are the roots of sorcery.  So I wouldn't discount some similar requirement for seeing the future in Maggy's tent.  The strange green light, perhaps attributable to a glass candle; something that Cersei doesn't quite percieve because of the dimness of the tent but calls a candle

When Sam tells Stannis and Melisandre about the dragonglass; Melisandre reveals that she is quite familiar with it and it's uses.

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A Storm of Swords - Samwell V

"Y-yes, Your Grace. Jon Snow gave it to me."
"Dragonglass." The red woman's laugh was music. "Frozen fire, in the tongue of old Valyria. Small wonder it is anathema to these cold children of the Other."
 
"On Dragonstone, where I had my seat, there is much of this obsidian to be seen in the old tunnels beneath the mountain," the king told Sam. "Chunks of it, boulders, ledges. The great part of it was black, as I recall, but there was some green as well, some red, even purple. I have sent word to Ser Rolland my castellan to begin mining it. I will not hold Dragonstone for very much longer, I fear, but perhaps the Lord of Light shall grant us enough frozen fire to arm ourselves against these creatures, before the castle falls."

The notion that Maggy and Melisandre are one in the same is very interesting and would turn out to be quite an unexpected twist!  As we are told by Mirri Maaz Duur there is a price to pay for sorcery.  

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VIII

Mirri Maz Duur sat back on her heels and studied Daenerys through eyes as black as night. "There is a spell." Her voice was quiet, scarcely more than a whisper. "But it is hard, lady, and dark. Some would say that death is cleaner. I learned the way in Asshai, and paid dear for the lesson. My teacher was a bloodmage from the Shadow Lands."

I have wondered what price Mirri paid for the lesson.  The loss of her own child or loved one's perhaps, or that some of her own life force is also consumed in the magic.  There is some notion of this between  Beric and Thoros when they discuss the number of times Beric has been resurrected.  Thoros tells him it can't happen another time or it will be the end of both of them.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Arya VII

"How many times?" Lord Beric insisted.

"Six," Thoros said reluctantly. "And each time is harder. You have grown reckless, my lord. Is death so very sweet?"

"Sweet? No, my friend. Not sweet."

"Then do not court it so. Lord Tywin leads from the rear. Lord Stannis as well. You would be wise to do the same. A seventh death might mean the end of both of us."

I get the sense that Thoros pays a price when he brings back Beric each time and expends part of his own life force ultimately ending in his own death.

Fire consumes. It consumes, and when it is done there is nothing left. Nothing.  Beric to Thoros

This act of consuming the life force is something that concerns Melisandre as well with regards to Stannis.  She has been leeching his blood and drawing his shadow and dares not use him any further because he has become so weak; a man without a shadow to quote the Ghost of High Heart.  This consuming of life force is demonstrated when Davos witnesses the birth of Shadow Stannis.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos II

There was no answer but a soft rustling. And then a light bloomed amidst the darkness.
 
Davos raised a hand to shield his eyes, and his breath caught in his throat. Melisandre had thrown back her cowl and shrugged out of the smothering robe. Beneath, she was naked, and huge with child. Swollen breasts hung heavy against her chest, and her belly bulged as if near to bursting. "Gods preserve us," he whispered, and heard her answering laugh, deep and throaty. Her eyes were hot coals, and the sweat that dappled her skin seemed to glow with a light of its own. Melisandre shone.

Melisandre shone, a light bloomed in the darkness.   This would be a graphic illustration of Melisandre's meaning when she says there can be no shadow without light.  Light equates to life and she pays for her sorcery with her own life force along with Stannis when she takes a part of his soul to make a shadow. 

Without a glamor to disguise her true appearance; she may well be sick and decayed in body just as Cersei describes Maggy.

   
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27 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Quite splendid to read!  The question of blood, leaches and candles brings to mind Marwyn.  When Sam enters Marwyn's chambers; he smells something burnt in a brazier and the glass candle is burning giving off strange light.  Marywyn tells him that blood and fire are the roots of sorcery.  So I wouldn't discount some similar requirement for seeing the future in Maggy's tent.  The strange green light, perhaps attributable to a glass candle; something that Cersei doesn't quite percieve because of the dimness of the tent but calls a candle

When Sam tells Stannis and Melisandre about the dragonglass; Melisandre reveals that she is quite familiar with it and it's uses.

The notion that Maggy and Melisandre are one in the same is very interesting and would turn out to be quite an unexpected twist!  As we are told by Mirri Maaz Duur there is a price to pay for sorcery.  

I have wondered what price Mirri paid for the lesson.  The loss of her own child or loved one's perhaps, or that some of her own life force is also consumed in the magic.  There is some notion of this between  Beric and Thoros when they discuss the number of times Beric has been resurrected.  Thoros tells him it can't happen another time or it will be the end of both of them.

I get the sense that Thoros pays a price when he brings back Beric each time and expends part of his own life force ultimately ending in his own death.

Fire consumes. It consumes, and when it is done there is nothing left. Nothing.  Beric to Thoros

This act of consuming the life force is something that concerns Melisandre as well with regards to Stannis.  She has been leeching his blood and drawing his shadow and dares not use him any further because he has become so weak; a man without a shadow to quote the Ghost of High Heart.  This consuming of life force is demonstrated when Davos witnesses the birth of Shadow Stannis.

Melisandre shone, a light bloomed in the darkness.   This would be a graphic illustration of Melisandre's meaning when she says there can be no shadow without light.  Light equates to life and she pays for her sorcery with her own life force along with Stannis when she takes a part of his soul to make a shadow. 

Without a glamor to disguise her true appearance; she may well be sick and decayed in body just as Cersei describes Maggy

   

@LynnS, Yes!  You make some good points and we are onto some of the same ideas!  I have the opinion there are certain magics that take a toll on the body and can even be transferred to others who are in the vicinity.  This was part of what I was going to add but decided to wait.  Really great observations on your part

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand.

This is the next time we see Stnnis after the shadow babies---> Stannis wore a grey wool tunic, a dark red mantle, and a plain black leather belt from which his sword and dagger hung. A red-gold crown with flame-shaped points encircled his brows. The look of him was a shock. He seemed ten years older than the man that Davos had left at Storm’s End when he set sail for the Blackwater and the battle that would be their undoing. The king’s close-cropped beard was spiderwebbed with grey hairs, and he had dropped two stone or more of weight. He had never been a fleshy man, but now the bones moved beneath his skin like spears, fighting to cut free. Even his crown seemed too large for his head. His eyes were blue pits lost in deep hollows, and the shape of a skull could be seen beneath his face.  

Lady Shiera does. Lord Bloodraven's paramour. She bathes in blood to keep her beauty.

 Mirri Maz Duur sat back on her heels and studied Daenerys through eyes as black as night. “There is a spell.” Her voice was quiet, scarcely more than a whisper. “But it is hard, lady, and dark. Some would say that death is cleaner. I learned the way in Asshai, and paid dear for the lesson. My teacher was a bloodmage from the Shadow Lands.”

When I was younger and more fair, I went in caravan to Asshai by the Shadow, to learn from their mages. Ships from many lands come to Asshai, so I lingered long to study the healing ways of distant peoples. A moonsinger of the Jogos Nhai gifted me with her birthing songs, a woman of your own riding people taught me the magics of grass and corn and horse, and a maester from the Sunset Lands opened a body for me and showed me all the secrets that hide beneath the skin.”

“Monstrous,” Mirri Maz Duur finished for him. The knight was a powerful man, yet Dany understood in that moment that the maegi was stronger, and crueler, and infinitely more dangerous. “Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years.”

“She made it sound a simple thing, and easy. They need never know how difficult it had been, or how much it had cost her. That was a lesson Melisandre had learned long before Asshai; the more effortless the sorcery appears, the more men fear the sorcerer.”

“Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames. Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow. “

A maegi was a woman who lay with demons and practiced the blackest of sorceries, a vile thing, evil and soulless, who came to men in the dark of night and sucked life and strength from their bodies.

Casterly Rock, of mad Lady Lothston who bathed in tubs of blood and presided over feasts of human flesh within these very walls.

Also, take a look at the description of Aegon the Unworthy in his old age.  His last Mistress was Serenei of Lys.  Pretty crazy.

 

Anyway, I think Maggy MIGHT have drank some blood to protect herself from the magic she was about to do.  Mel's choker is like a replacement for this.  Tin foily I know, but I need to analyze it some more.

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35 minutes ago, Crowfood's daughter said:

Anyway, I think Maggy MIGHT have drank some blood to protect herself from the magic she was about to do.  Mel's choker is like a replacement for this.  Tin foily I know, but I need to analyze it some more.

I have my tinfoil hat on right now!  The consumption of blood... that's very interesting considering the number of times various characters taste their own blood in their mouth (Tyrion, at least twice) and then there is Bran's weirwood experience tasting the blood of the sacrifice.  Bathing in blood another interesting parallel with Drogo and possibly Roose Bolton.  Not to mention Dany eating the stallion's heart.

Melisandre does have her ruby, conveniently placed at her throat and she drinks down the fire to sustain herself.  Although I suspect her ruby is actually a piece of dragonglass given that Mance's ruby turns dark when Mel breaks the glamor.   Perhaps Mel's abilities are degraded because what remains of her own life force is so depleted.

This is quite telling:

A maegi was a woman who lay with demons and practiced the blackest of sorceries, a vile thing, evil and soulless, who came to men in the dark of night and sucked life and strength from their bodies.

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On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 9:49 PM, Crowfood's daughter said:

Cersei, The Unreliable Narrator

Very well done!  Bravo!

SSM tells us not to take Ned's fever dream too literally so we don't (or at least attempt not to).  Cersei tells us she's unsure but we tend to take her word for word.  Kuddos for picking that out!

On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 9:49 PM, Crowfood's daughter said:

Knowing what we have just learned, would it surprise you to also learn the symbolism behind the frog is transformation?  Although there are many cultures with tales of frogs, the Western and European views of symbolism focus on the Frog's metamorphosis (egg, tadpole, fully formed amphibian) to symbolize resurrection and spiritual evolution. If you have ever heard the fairytale of the princess and the frog you get the idea. 

Very cool!  Just when I think these books have been picked over and there's nothing new left. 

The correlations you found between Maggy the Frog and Mel are very astute.  Though, like SSR, I have my reservations given that Mel is such a R'hllor fanatic.  I'm not convinced they are the same person, but you have opened my eyes to the likelihood that they are related and the possibility that they are the same.  We just need more information (story of our lives, eh?).

I am a believer that Mel and Quiate are related but I shun the mother/daughter relation.  I see no reason to think one is the parent and not consider siblinghood.  My tinfoil is that they are sisters; possibly twins.   

Supposition time:

If Mel is Maggy or they are related... 

If Mel/Maggy (same or sisters) is/are the child/children of Shiera & BR...

Jeyne is the granddaughter of Maggy

Aegon's Great Bastard's & their lines are directly influencing the royal family in Dany, KL, the Lannisters, the Starks, the Night's Watch, The CotF, the Greenseers.  Now who is really playing the Game of Thrones?

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This is really impressive. But if Mel is Maggy how on earth did she end up supporting Stannis? Maggy was right on with a number of things, as you point out, including the fall of House Targaryen and rise of House Baratheon. She should know Stannis was born at Storm's End, while Mel seems to think he was born on Dragonstone. And why wouldn't Maggy glamour herself to look young and beautiful?

Mel has a memory of a slave girl being auctioned. It's generally accepted to be a memory of herself being sold. If that's the case, her name was Melony which is hardly something the people of Westeros would have trouble pronouncing.

I think it's more likely that Mel and Maggy are connected (through training if nothing else) but are different people. Still, you've done an awesome job here. 

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16 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

This is really impressive. But if Mel is Maggy how on earth did she end up supporting Stannis? Maggy was right on with a number of things, as you point out, including the fall of House Targaryen and rise of House Baratheon. She should know Stannis was born at Storm's End, while Mel seems to think he was born on Dragonstone. And why wouldn't Maggy glamour herself to look young and beautiful?

Mel has a memory of a slave girl being auctioned. It's generally accepted to be a memory of herself being sold. If that's the case, her name was Melony which is hardly something the people of Westeros would have trouble pronouncing.

I think it's more likely that Mel and Maggy are connected (through training if nothing else) but are different people. Still, you've done an awesome job here. 

@Lady Blizzardborn Melony had changed her name some time after becoming a slave, her name might have even been forced on her due to being a slave.  The long and difficult to pronounce name the smallfolk had trouble with is 'Melisandre'. 

So Mel had been supporting Stannis during her time in the Westerlands.  Take a look at the Lannister who had raised the Spicers to Lords, Tytos Lannister.  He became lord of Casterly Rock when his father, Gorold the Golden, died of a "bad bladder" at the age of 42.  Tytos Lannister almost led his house into ruin according to TWOIA.  The personality of Tytos was so genial, laid back and so easily manipulated, well, it made it into the history books (TWOIAF).  He did some weird things like make a wet nurse his girlfriend and later he was besotted by a candlemaker's daughter.  It was he who made the very questionable betrothal of his daughter Genna Lannister who was only seven at the time to a son of House Frey.who wasn't even an heir (only a second son).  It was so questionable 10 year old Tywin famously spoke out against it.  This very questionable marriage had tied House Frey to House Lannister. It was Maggy's grand-daughter (Sybell Spicer) who betrayed House Stark.  Sybell Spicer coincidentally married into House Westerling in a similar fashion to how Jeyne married into House Stark (ASOS, Tyrion III). Maggie also has a hand at seeding the paranoia of Cersei which is one of Cersei's greatest weaknesses.

So let's just say for an instant Melisandre is Maggy.  Mel already knew Joffrey was going to die.  Now let's also assume she also knew about the death of Robb Stark, but disn't have knowledge of Balon Greyjoy's fate.  Look at the leech scene (which is a farse) with new eyes:

Quote

“A righteous man.” Stannis touched the covered silver platter with a finger. “With leeches.” “Yes,” said Melisandre, “but I must tell you once more, this is not the way.” “You swore it would work.” The king looked angry. “It will … and it will not.” “Which?” “Both.” “Speak sense to me, woman.”

She needed to get the ball rolling and wake the dragons from stone because although she hasn't seen Balon's death she knows that waking the stone dragon with King's blood will take the prophesy closer to completion and Balon will die inevitably because she believes once the dragons wake from stone, nothing will be able to stand before him.

So the question about why didn't Maggy glamour herself when she was in the westerlands.  My answer is this, Maggy didn't have to glamour herself.  She was already young and beautiful when she married the Spicer.  She had no need for glamours.  People would grow suspicious if you saw a woman for thirty or forty years and she never aged.  I am sure she could make herself prettier, but she had no need.  She is not a vain person, like Cersei.  Melisanre's appearance is a tool in present time. 

 

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21 hours ago, LynnS said:

I have my tinfoil hat on right now!  The consumption of blood... that's very interesting considering the number of times various characters taste their own blood in their mouth (Tyrion, at least twice) and then there is Bran's weirwood experience tasting the blood of the sacrifice.  Bathing in blood another interesting parallel with Drogo and possibly Roose Bolton.  Not to mention Dany eating the stallion's heart.

Melisandre does have her ruby, conveniently placed at her throat and she drinks down the fire to sustain herself.  Although I suspect her ruby is actually a piece of dragonglass given that Mance's ruby turns dark when Mel breaks the glamor.   Perhaps Mel's abilities are degraded because what remains of her own life force is so depleted.

This is quite telling:

A maegi was a woman who lay with demons and practiced the blackest of sorceries, a vile thing, evil and soulless, who came to men in the dark of night and sucked life and strength from their bodies.

I believe Maggy died as Cersei mentions and no longer needs blood in the living sorceress sense.  The ruby is now like an adjunct  Take a look at this--->  https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1b56ua/spoilers_alla_theory_on_melisandre/

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