Who is the True Targaryen Heir?

[The Fattest Leech]

18 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Except you missed a period. "It was said" refers to the previous sentence. Not to the part about sending Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone, which we know 200% to be true anyway.

I never doubted that Rhaella and Viserys were sent away. We know that because we have that from many sources. However, you are forgetting that what Yandel wrote down, he did not witness, and is coming to him second hand.

The point about that 'period' is not valid because all of that section has to do with that event. It helps to break up a nonsensical run-on sentence. Those bits of information there all work together to tell about that moment in time.

Quote

 

But Aerys naming Viserys his heir after Rhaegar's death doesn't affect the Lannisters or Robert in any way. Viserys and Dany are the only known surviving Targaryens so this little piece of information makes zero difference.

It does a make a significant difference for us, the readers, who know about Jon, and about (f)Aegon as well. Which is why I believe it was included in the WOAIF. It gives Daenerys a legal means to argue that she, rather than (f)Aegon, is the legitimate heir.

I don't think any of this is important for Jon's prospects at all. Even assuming Rhaegar did marry Lyanna, being the child of a polygamous prince is pretty similar to being his bastard. To be legitimate in everyone's eyes you'd need the support of a king or queen ; except if you're the best candidate for the throne in which case your legitimacy is only a technicality anyway.
I think Jon's potential legitimacy only matters to him and to us. In terms of inheritance it's close to a moot point.

Actually, it does help the Lannisters because if it is "known" that Aerys made Viserys his heir instead of Rhaegar, well then it happens to also be in favor of Cersei because those two possibilities are 'documented' dead and are of no possible threat to her slowly being exposed bastard children born of abominable incest (or whatever they call incest in the books).

And one of the quotes I gave you above mentions the issue with the Dance of the dragons, and the issue with female inheritance, which is common regardless of how "loose" inheritance laws are. Cersei is also fighting with this now on page. The World book was written as a gift to the current rulers and Cersei just happens to be the main factor behind every king it is dedicated to. She makes the statement that she should have been the one born with a penis (or something), for just this type of case.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring

To Grand Maester Pycelle and Lord Owen Merryweather, the King's Hand, fell the unenviable task of keeping peace between these factions, even as their rivalry grew ever more venomous. In a letter to the Citadel, Pycelle wrote that the divisions within the Red Keep reminded him uncomfortably of the situation before the Dance of the Dragons a century before, when the enmity between Queen Alicent and Princess Rhaenyra had split the realm in two, to grievous cost. A similarly bloody conflict might await the Seven Kingdoms once again, he warned, unless some accord could be reached that would satisfy both Prince Rhaegar's supporters and the king's.

Had any whiff of proof come into their hands to show that Prince Rhaegar was conspiring against his father, King Aerys's loyalists would most certainly have used it to bring about the prince's downfall. Indeed, certain of the king's men had even gone so far as to suggest that Aerys should disinherit his "disloyal" son, and name his younger brother heir to the Iron Throne in his stead. Prince Viserys was but seven years of age, and his eventual ascension would certainly mean a regency, wherein they themselves would rule as regents.

Dany could be the heir, but it hinges on if Jon is legit (to which we have tons of clues, but until it is in the books it can't be used 100%), and if Jon is shown to be legit, then we don't have some drunken maester bring out a King's Landing Pink Letter that everyone is going to fight over. The same way that saying Aerys disinherited Rhaegar cannot be proven unless it is on page. At this point it is rumor at best.

We are at a stalemate. But lots of issues are at a stalemate in the series at the moment. Come on TWOW!!!!

 

ADDING: I have to go make dinner now, and get some other work done, so my replies will come slow and late.

[The Hammer of Justice]

Maegor, son of Aerion Brightflame, is the rightful heir of course. He is alive and conspiring to recover the throne from the Usurper's (Egg) descendants

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, The Hammer of Justice said:

Maegor, son of Aerion Brightflame, is the rightful heir of course. He is alive and conspiring to recover the throne from the Usurper's (Egg) descendants

I am actually quite down with this

[Rippounet]

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The point about that 'period' is not valid because all of that section has to do with that event. It helps to break up a nonsensical run-on sentence. Those bits of information there all work together to tell about that moment in time.

No offense, but any argument hinging on a personal interpretation of grammatical rules is ridiculous.

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Actually, it does help the Lannisters because if it is "known" that Aerys made Viserys his heir instead of Rhaegar, well then it happens to also be in favor of Cersei because those two possibilities are 'documented' dead and are of no possible threat to her slowly being exposed bastard children born of abominable incest (or whatever they call incest in the books).

And one of the quotes I gave you above mentions the issue with the Dance of the dragons, and the issue with female inheritance, which is common regardless of how "loose" inheritance laws are. Cersei is also fighting with this now on page. The World book was written as a gift to the current rulers and Cersei just happens to be the main factor behind every king it is dedicated to. She makes the statement that she should have been the one born with a penis (or something), for just this type of case.

None of this makes any sense to me.

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Dany could be the heir, but it hinges on if Jon is legit (to which we have tons of clues, but until it is in the books it can't be used 100%), and if Jon is shown to be legit, then we don't have some drunken maester bring out a King's Landing Pink Letter that everyone is going to fight over. The same way that saying Aerys disinherited Rhaegar cannot be proven unless it is on page. At this point it is rumor at best.

So what are the "tons of clues" please? You're the second person to say this and I stil genuinely have no idea what you people are referring to.

And you're missing my point. I don't think this is about Jon's claim vs Dany's claim. Imho it's about (f)Aegon's claim vs Dany's claim.
If Jon becomes king, his legitimacy will be close to irrelevant.

[Drogonthedread]

It's daenerys targaryen ,Last Dragon who is the last trueborn targaryen..

She is the mother of dragons , Aegon the conqueror with tits , Rider of Drogon( balerion the dread come again)  and has been only member who is fighting for the targ restoration alone and from the beginning

Why even bother about WoIAf ASoiaF starts with Viserys as King and Dany his heir ..nothing changed much other than a pretender claiming to be targ whose legitimacy can be a question..

Be it jon or anyone else for that matter can come above dany in getting the throne but the one true targaryen in this story is Dany ..

I don't know why there is even a debate but then again looking at who is having these debates its not surprising...god is there a way that any thread can be safe from two guys taking over with their constant trolling.

[purple-eyes]

5 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Since it isn't in ASOIAF it isn't a fact. No one in ASOIAF has ever said that Aerys named Viserys his heir. Even if it was the part of women not inheriting is a fact too.

Honestly? Because is so effing boring. I prefer spending my time watching silly funny videos on youtube rather than discussing for the umpteenth time.

 

hey. "it was said" that Aerys cursed dornish. there is no "it was said" for the next sentence. It was a period. 

This made sense that they did not have firm record about what Aerys said or cursed in the court. But for something actually happened (of course not in the chaos), especially important events like naming new heir and escape of queen, they are much more sure about them. 

[Protagoras]

Daenerys obviously

She was named the heir of Viserys who was the last known Targaryen (apart from herself) in existence and might have been heir instead of Rhaegar in the first place possibly. And this is big. People KNOW she exist. No other candidate can say the same. She has the Targaryen look, is identifying as a Targaryen and is one out of two interested in reclaiming the throne.

Aegon comes with a pretty strong claim of his own. The only weakness is that he is considered dead but there should be mythoses in Westeros too about the returned true king to make it work. But he is having the best claim - if he is real that is. And that is his issue. He comes with to many if´s.

Jons claim is...problematic to say the least. While it might be possible to prove the elopement between Lyanna and Rhaegar, the uncertainty about a marriage makes it likely that Jon is still just a bastard and even if they were married (and said marriage was legal) that has to be proved somehow, as well as confirming that Rhaegar wasn´t stripped as heir (But I think we can assume that he wasn´t). And even if that can be sorted out we have Jons own choice to enter the night´s watch, thereby losing said claim as well as the fact that he has no idea about it and doesn´t see himself as a Targ. To be the head of a house you need to identify with the house. You can´t really say "I am Jon Snow and I don´t care about house Targaryen but see myself as a Stark, yet somehow I should be able to take decisions for the house".

Tyrions claim is big bs. At best (if the rumors are true) he is a bastard due to the lack of marriage (and in comparison to Jon we do have a history with "known" parents). He has been publicly known for a Lannister for years and the similarities between him and Tywin are very significant. It would be more or less an impossible sell.

In addition to all this, Daenerys has birthed dragons. The classical power symbol and it marks her as the scion of her house. You could even argue that Dragons triumphs succession since anyone with a religious bent could claim that her dragonbirth is a sign from the gods and the mother in particular. That she has been chosen by divine authority for power. Even in a situation where other could present decent claims, this should be the winner. I mean just having Blackfyre made many believe that Daemon should be king. Daenerys has three fucking dragons!

[The Fattest Leech]

Ok, again, sorry to have to stay short with this, but I am sneaking it in between work

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

No offense,

None taken. I think we have had an actual, normal discussion here and I appreciate that. And actually, it is nice for me to get into talking about something other than my norm every once in a while.

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

but any argument hinging on a personal interpretation of grammatical rules is ridiculous.

I am glad you agree because the fact that a use of a 'period' was used between bits of information really shouldn't have an effect on the information.

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

None of this makes any sense to me.

Whaa? You don't speak jibberish?

Basically, Cersei still exists in this story and we need to take that in to consideration. Cersei already has a maester try to make a claim that Aerys left Viserys as heir. Since in-world people know Viserys is dead, then any other remaining Targ kids could pose a threat to Cersei's throne (cuz it ain't Tommen's throne). So if Cersei needed a measter to draw up a fake document stating that Rhaegar was disinherited, then any Rhaegar children would also not count. Yandel is worried about keeping his head and will do as Cersei tells him to (or whoever shows up with this potential info in TWOW). Without any such document, Dany, Jon, or maybe even Aegon, pose a threat. Especially since it is becoming more well known and open that Cersei's children are not Baratheon's and really shouldn't have a claim themselves. Robert had a claim because he won the throne by conquer, and he does have that drop of dragon blood, but it was the conquer... so, maybe it should go to Gendry , but that is another thread. Hahaha!

In Cersei's mind, and with her being suppressed herself because she is a woman, she does not seem to be considering Dany a threat. I mean, she was warned that Dany had dragons and she ignores that! The other funny thing about this is that Cersei makes a joke about manticores and snarks, and we happen to know that Dany does have "manticores" and "bearded snarks" coming to Westeros with her.

A Feast for Crows - Cersei IV

"One last thing, Your Grace," said Aurane Waters, in an apologetic tone. "I hesitate to take up the council's time with trifles, but there has been some queer talk heard along the docks of late. Sailors from the east. They speak of dragons . . ."

". . . and manticores, no doubt, and bearded snarks?" Cersei chuckled. "Come back to me when you hear talk of dwarfs, my lord." She stood, to signal that the meeting was at an end.

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

So what are the "tons of clues" please? You're the second person to say this and I stil genuinely have no idea what you people are referring to.

And you're missing my point. I don't think this is about Jon's claim vs Dany's claim. Imho it's about (f)Aegon's claim vs Dany's claim.
If Jon becomes king, his legitimacy will be close to irrelevant.

As far as Jon goes, count me in as one of the people who think that no matter what, he is not going to lose his Starkness and claim the throne and/or go live in King's Landing. I also personally think that none of this will matter in or after the Long Night, and the system will be turned on its head and things like "bastards" might not apply??? But, that is not answering any questions here, sooo.....

Aegon is trickier because there is a real chance he is a Blackfyre and so he has the Targ-ness and can pass visually as Rhaegar's son. This will be hard to dis-prove because of his looks and JonCon as his sidekick, possibly Dorne, and possibly the backing of Varys- who Aerys trusted.

But this is also where that issue of disinheriting Rhaegar comes in to play. If there is no document proving Aerys did go through with removing Rhaegar, then Rhaegar's kids should be next to inherit. First Aegon, then Jon, then Dany later if needed. If Aegon dies or is proven false, then it goes to Jon, then Dany (without an Aerys approved disinheritance). Yes, we readers know inheritance can be wonky, but these are the set of guidelines that are followed first.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II

In the years that followed, the king's madness deepened. Though Tywin Lannister continued as Hand, Aerys no longer met with him save in the presence of all seven Kingsguard. Convinced that the smallfolk and lords were plotting against his life and fearing that even Queen Rhaella and Prince Rhaegar might be part of these plots, he reached across the narrow sea to Pentos and imported a eunuch named Varys to serve as his spymaster, reasoning that only a man without friends, family, or ties in Westeros could be relied upon for the truth. The Spider, as he soon became known to the smallfolk of his realm, used the crown's gold to create a vast web of informers. For the rest of Aerys's reign, he would crouch at the king's side, whispering in his ear.

Also with Aegon, to me at least, how many generations back are we saying get to make a claim? If there was a legitimized branch that was "lost" that still has heirs, then do they get to make a claim?

If there is a document, Daenerys gets moved to first, then Aegon and Jon lose out (unless there is a debate/council of some sort).

My short version: I think Aegon bites it and then things are down to Jon and Dany and they will probably rule two kingdoms, which while separate, they will coexist peacefully.

Oh, and despite what others on this thread may be hinting at, I am not making a personal claim for any one over the other. I am going by book information. One of the reasons for my liking to paste the book quotes or SSM's.

[Rippounet]

30 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I am glad you agree because the fact that a use of a 'period' was used between bits of information really shouldn't have an effect on the information.

It very much does, according to the rules of the English language. Perhaps you're not a native speaker?

The funny thing is that even without the period, "it was said" would still not apply to the fact that Viserys is Aerys's "new heir." I used the argument of the period out of simplicity, but grammatically speaking Yandel does not present Viserys becoming heir as rumor, period . And as purple-eyes said, the naming of an heir is public knowledge anyway, so there's little reason to doubt the information in the first place.

Look, that's just a terrible argument. I don't think I've even ever seen it before, which in itself is relevant enough. Pursuing this can only weaken your credibility.

30 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I Basically, Cersei still exists in this story and we need to take that in to consideration. Cersei already has a maester try to make a claim that Aerys left Viserys as heir. Since in-world people know Viserys is dead, then any other remaining Targ kids could pose a threat to Cersei's throne (cuz it ain't Tommen's throne). So if Cersei needed a measter to draw up a fake document stating that Rhaegar was disinherited, then any Rhaegar children would also not count. Yandel is worried about keeping his head and will do as Cersei tells him to (or whoever shows up with this potential info in TWOW). Without any such document, Dany, Jon, or maybe even Aegon, pose a threat.

But... At the time Yandel writes TWOAIF he has no knowledge of (f)Aegon, and of course even less of Jon. Dany is the only known Targaryen survivor and whether Aerys named Viserys heir or not doesn't change anything. Like, at all.

Edit: to be clear, the information is only useful as far as it could later be used against (f)Aegon's claim.

30 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

As far as Jon goes, count me in as one of the people who think that no matter what, he is not going to lose his Starkness and claim the throne and/or go live in King's Landing. I also personally think that none of this will matter in or after the Long Night, and the system will be turned on its head and things like "bastards" might not apply???

That at least we can agree on.

[Dorian Martell's son]

9 hours ago, Nezza86 said:

Of the remaining Targaryens who comes out as the rightful heir?

The one who takes the throne, like their ancestor, the conqueror. 
/thread 

[The Fattest Leech]

 

45 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

The funny thing is that even without the period, "it was said" would still not apply to the fact that Viserys is Aerys's "new heir." I used the argument of the period out of simplicity, but grammatically speaking Yandel does not present Viserys becoming heir as rumor, period . And as purple-eyes said, the naming of an heir is public knowledge anyway, so there's little reason to doubt the information in the first place.

Look, that's just a terrible argument. I don't think I've even ever seen it before, which in itself is relevant enough. Pursuing this can only weaken your credibility.

Um, not quite. And as I posted earlier, all three examples of this info given is paired with it being a rumor, or whispers, etc.

45 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

But... At the time Yandel writes TWOAIF he has no knowledge of (f)Aegon, and of course even less of Jon. Dany is the only known Targaryen survivor and whether Aerys named Viserys heir or not doesn't change anything. Like, at all.

Edit: to be clear, the information is only useful as far as it could later be used against (f)Aegon's claim.

That at least we can agree on.

Awesome.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Stannis... Yeah i said it 

[Rippounet]

4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Um, not quite. And as I posted earlier, all three examples of this info given is paired with it being a rumor, or whispers, etc.

You are confusing the possibility of Aerys disinheriting Rhaegar with the fact that he named Viserys heir after Rhaegar's death.

As far as we know, Aerys never disinherited Rhaegar. This was indeed rumor, though of course such rumors did reflect the tensions between Rhaegar and his father, and it's entirely possible that Aerys did consider it (or threatened to do it).

Aerys naming Viserys heir after Rhaegar's death however is something else. Even if you don't buy the fact that Aerys was suspicious of the Dornish and thus of Rhaegar's children, it still made sense to name Viserys heir rather than letting it be the infant Aegon ; Viserys was still a child, but he was old enough to understand what it meant, and since Rhaella was with him she could be his natural regent until he became a man grown. And of course, if you believe Yandel that Aerys doted on Viserys it makes even more sense.

It seems to me you keep forgetting that no one knows about Jon. By naming Viserys heir, Aerys only skipped baby Aegon (and, arguably, Rhaenys). Rhaegar himself was, of course, never disinherited, and he died as the Targaryen prince and lord of Dragonstone.

Of course, by naming Viserys heir, Aerys created a potential future crisis between Aegon and Viserys. And we may yet see a variation of that since we now have (f)Aegon and Dany who may or may not come to fight each other.

Because Martin hinted that there would be a second Dance of Dragons, one might reasonably expect Dany and (f)Aegon to fight. (f)Aegon can argue that the throne is his by right, dragons or no dragons, and that Dany should marry him ; Dany would likely be tempted, at least at first.
If Dany learns that Aerys named Viserys heir however, she'll immediately realize that (f)Aegon's claim is weaker than it seems and that the throne should be hers... She may then remember the prophecy about a "mummer's dragon." And if it happens that her dragons don't seem to like Aegon...

To sum up: I believe this little piece of information is there to tell us why the second Dance of Dragons will start.

Now, on a different note, I believe I've explained my reasoning enough times. Feel free to dismiss it, I'm not that interested in convincing anyone.

[El Guapo]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

So if Cersei needed a measter to draw up a fake document stating that Rhaegar was disinherited, then any Rhaegar children would also not count. Yandel is worried about keeping his head and will do as Cersei tells him to (or whoever shows up with this potential info in TWOW). Without any such document, Dany, Jon, or maybe even Aegon, pose a threat.

 

Again, there is nothing to say that Rhaegar was disinherited only that Viserys was named heir after his death which does not in anyway take the claims away from his children.The only think it did was put them behind the line of succession of King Viserys. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

The true heir cannot be known at this point.

Aerys named Viserys his heir. Yeah, and Aerys was insane. 

I read somewhere, that Viserys was barred from the line after Robert took the throne. Not sure if that's true, but it would have been a smart thing to do. However, chances are that Dany was not barred because that decision would have been made before she was born, and possibly before anyone knew Rhaella was pregnant. 

Aegon may or may not be Aegon.

Jon may or may not be legitimate. Illegitimate is more likely, but it's possible that Rhae Rhae went to the High Septon and got a dispensation to take a second wife so that he could get the spare son so popular with nobility throughout the ages.

At the moment, it appears that Dany has the best shot due to having unquestioned descent and legitimacy...and also dragons.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

2 hours ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

Stannis... Yeah i said it 

Which dragon do you think he'll ride?

[El Guapo]

9 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The true heir cannot be known at this point.

Aerys named Viserys his heir. Yeah, and Aerys was insane. 

I read somewhere, that Viserys was barred from the line after Robert took the throne. Not sure if that's true, but it would have been a smart thing to do. However, chances are that Dany was not barred because that decision would have been made before she was born, and possibly before anyone knew Rhaella was pregnant. 

 

 

As far as House Targaryen is concerned Robert was a usurper and they are still the rulers of Westeros living in exile. It is why Dany has all those titles that everyone complains about.  What Robert did or didn't too is meaningless.

[khal drogon]

Robert taking the throne citing his Targaryen heritage muddles everything. It effectively makes that the Targaryens are not deposed as Robert used their name to consolidate his throne. This doesn't erase the claim of Viserys it is Renly above Stannis kinda situation. Technically Robert is a usurper. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

9 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

 

As far as House Targaryen is concerned Robert was a usurper and they are still the rulers of Westeros living in exile. It is why Dany has all those titles that everyone complains about.  What Robert did or didn't too is meaningless.

It doesn't matter what House Targaryen thinks about it. Robert sat the throne and made laws, or rather signed laws that other people made. And if you're living in exile, you're not ruling. Their house lost the throne. They can retake it, but that doesn't change the fact that it was in fact lost. The question of an heir doesn't depend on whether or not they have the right to sit on the world's most uncomfortable chair. And if they do retake the chair, then of course they can all argue over who has to sit on it.

As far as Viserys goes it's a moot point because he's probably going to stay dead. So I'm not sure why any of us (myself included) bothered to mention him.

And actually most of Dany's titles she picked up without reference to the IT.

1 minute ago, khal drogon said:

Robert taking the throne citing his Targaryen heritage muddles everything. It effectively makes that the Targaryens are not deposed as Robert used their name to consolidate his throne. This doesn't erase the claim of Viserys it is Renly above Stannis kinda situation. Technically Robert is a usurper. 

Muddles indeed. With all  Targs proper either dead or out of the country, Robert was next in line.

He didn't need to claim his Targ heritage. He could have just claimed right of arms. Throwing grandma in was just done to make it look nicer according to GRRM.

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 He could have just claimed right of arms. 

Like his Ancestor, the conqueror