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Kingmonkey

The meaning of "Winter is Coming" (idle thoughts)

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11 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

I wonder what the Starks did to deserve a frozen hell.

There seems to have been some kind of early alliance between the Starks and the Children of the Forest -- Brandon the Builder learned the CotF language to work with them. We don't seem to have any hints as to what the CotF got out of the deal. If the Others turn out to be in some way the product of CotF magic, that raises some interesting questions, particularly given the apparent similarity between Others and humans rather than the CotF themselves. Which may in some way hint at an answer to:

 

I think Ned was on milk of the poppy at the time, so it may not actually mean a thing.

What the CotF got out of the pact was that the First Men would quit killing them and cutting down the weirwood groves. This is why I'm skeptical about the CotF creating the Others...they'd had peace for 2,000 years and the FM seem to have all begun worshiping the Old Gods of the Children, so why go back on their word and try to kill men again? Any why bring them back again after 8,000 years? If they're angry about being all be extinct you'd think they would have gotten into the mix during the Andal invasion, cause the Andals were taking out weirwoods right and left. I doubt they could have done anything about the Targaryens. Still they've had literally millenia to get any revenge or try and even things out. Why not act sooner? Guilt?

Then again, maybe they aren't responsible for the Others coming back again. 

I don't think the Others are that similar to humans. GRRM says they're like icy sidhe. And he commented that when Sam stabbed Puddles, he "broke the spell" holding him together. Humans aren't held together with spells. 

Eh, I don't think normal applies in this series. It's a superstition. But it will be interesting to see if it did once have a basis in a realistic fear. If the pact involved some kind of blood-bond with the Starks, things could get very interesting. 

I've sometimes wondered if the War for the Dawn ended in a pact that included something like "as long as there is a Stark in Winterfell" because at the time no one could imagine that the Starks would ever NOT hold Winterfell.

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10 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

Well, in my opinion, "Winter is coming" definitely is a threat towards the enemies of House Stark. Given that Starks have some blood of Children of the Forest mixed in them, some of them might have foreseen the second Long Night we are about to witness in this story, the Winter. And they might have witnessed a triumphant Stark king (who I think is Jon Snow) taking over Westeros.

<snip

Do we have a quote on this? It makes sense, but I'm wondering if there's any confirmation of it. 

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46 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Do we have a quote on this? It makes sense, but I'm wondering if there's any confirmation of it. 

Well, considering how Brandon the Builder was rumored to be heavily involved with Children and how later Stark king slayed the Warg King and married his daughter, I am pretty sure Starks have Children of the Forest magic is strong in them. Otherwise, how do Jon, Arya and Bran have their abilities? I mean, do you even need text quote for that, I think it is common logic.

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On 2/20/2017 at 0:10 PM, Scorpion92 said:

Well, considering how Brandon the Builder was rumored to be heavily involved with Children and how later Stark king slayed the Warg King and married his daughter, I am pretty sure Starks have Children of the Forest magic is strong in them. Otherwise, how do Jon, Arya and Bran have their abilities? I mean, do you even need text quote for that, I think it is common logic.

Where does anything say the Warg King was CotF? He was allied with them, but he was human. There's no evidence of the WK himself being killed. His sons, beasts, and greenseers were certainly killed, and his daughters taken as prizes of war, but what happened to him is unknown--the most popular theory among the fans being that he went to the Riverlands and founded House Blackwood, hence Bloodraven's abilities.

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3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Where does anything say the Warg King was CotF? He was allied with them, but he was human. There's no evidence of the WK himself being killed. His sons, beasts, and greenseers were certainly killed, and his daughters taken as prizes of war, but what happened to him is unknown--the most popular theory among the fans being that he went to the Riverlands and founded House Blackwood, hence Bloodraven's abilities.

I like that one myself, and would like to add that the Stark's don't need to have the blood of CotF- their ancestors spilled blood of their own at the Hearttree, as Bran witnesses himself in one his weirnet visions. I think the parallel between that act and the implications of the horn Dragonbinder are intriguing, as well.

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On February 16, 2017 at 4:13 PM, Kingmonkey said:

The words gave her a chill, as they always did. The Stark words. Every noble house had its words. Family mottoes, touchstones, prayers of sorts, they boasted of honor and glory, promised loyalty and truth, swore faith and courage. All but the Starks. Winter is coming, said the Stark words. Not for the first time, she reflected on what a strange people these northerners were.

 

I think our introduction to the words will prove to be their conclusion. 

Catelyn was wrong. 

The Stark words, too, are a family motto, a touchstone, a prayer, boast of honor and glory, promise loyalty and truth, and they swear faith and courage.

It's just that she could never realize that the Starks are people of Winter, and are strengthened by it. 

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4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Where does anything say the Warg King was CotF? He was allied with them, but he was human. There's no evidence of the WK himself being killed. His sons, beasts, and greenseers were certainly killed, and his daughters taken as prizes of war, but what happened to him is unknown--the most popular theory among the fans being that he went to the Riverlands and founded House Blackwood, hence Bloodraven's abilities.

 

He was a WARG king, I did not say he was a Child of the Forest. Warging and skinchanging are Children magic. Regardless if Warg king survived or not, his bloodline mixed with Starks through his daughters. At least that is how I see it.

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22 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

He was a WARG king, I did not say he was a Child of the Forest. Warging and skinchanging are Children magic. Regardless if Warg king survived or not, his bloodline mixed with Starks through his daughters. At least that is how I see it.

What you said was that the Starks have CotF blood, based on having taken the Warg King's daughters as war prizes. So either you believe the Warg King was CotF (apparently not) or had CotF blood. But we have no evidence for either.

We don't know that skinchanging is magic that only the CotF have, or that you have to have CotF blood/genes to have the same ability. The ability could come from  a number of things including eating the weirwood paste.  Essos has a comparable magic potion in shade of the evening. 

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2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

What you said was that the Starks have CotF blood, based on having taken the Warg King's daughters as war prizes. So either you believe the Warg King was CotF (apparently not) or had CotF blood. But we have no evidence for either.

We don't know that skinchanging is magic that only the CotF have, or that you have to have CotF blood/genes to have the same ability. The ability could come from  a number of things including eating the weirwood paste.  Essos has a comparable magic potion in shade of the evening. 

 

Yet you do not see anyone in Essos warging or skinchanging an animal after eating the potion, except maybe that Mirri Maz Duur sorcery with Khal Drogo and his horse. And maybe some ironborn skinchanging animals living in water (Farwynds if I am not mistaken?). Maybe I forgot something? Help me out here.

The point I wanted to bring across was that the abilities of skinchanging and warging are predominant in the northern Westeros - people of First Men descent and Old Gods religion. And First Men accepted Old Gods after the war with Children of the Forest. Even House Reed is rumored to have a strong Children of the Forest magic blood in them, thus, Jojen's "green dreams".

We also know that Stark king defeated Marsh King and married his daughter, so there is another potential link to how exactly Starks added the bloodline of Children magic if you believe they did not have it in the first place or if you do not like Warg king idea  (because I am of the opinion Starks had interacted with the magic of the Children from the beginning, otherwise, Brandon the Builder could not have constructed Winterfell, Storm's End and the Wall with all that Children juice ingrained in them).

That is all I am saying. And I think that Starks used this ability of skinchanging and warging to their full advantage while conquering the North.

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3 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

Yet you do not see anyone in Essos warging or skinchanging an animal after eating the potion, except maybe that Mirri Maz Duur sorcery with Khal Drogo and his horse. And maybe some ironborn skinchanging animals living in water (Farwynds if I am not mistaken?). Maybe I forgot something? Help me out here.

The point I wanted to bring across was that the abilities of skinchanging and warging are predominant in the northern Westeros - people of First Men descent and Old Gods religion. And First Men accepted Old Gods after the war with Children of the Forest. Even House Reed is rumored to have a strong Children of the Forest magic blood in them, thus, Jojen's "green dreams".

We also know that Stark king defeated Marsh King and married his daughter, so there is another potential link to how exactly Starks added the bloodline of Children magic if you believe they did not have it in the first place or if you do not like Warg king idea  (because I am of the opinion Starks had interacted with the magic of the Children from the beginning, otherwise, Brandon the Builder could not have constructed Winterfell, Storm's End and the Wall with all that Children juice ingrained in them).

That is all I am saying. And I think that Starks used this ability of skinchanging and warging to their full advantage while conquering the North.

I'm not sure we have an accurate idea of the full magical climate in Essos. So far we've only seen it through Dany's eyes, with a smattering of Quentyn, Tyrion, and Barristan, and really those three aren't out traveling widely or there for the culture. We spend way more time in Westeros so of course we're seeing more there. Essos is pretty huge and we haven't seen much of it at all. If they have a large base of skinchangers anywhere, my bet is that they keep it quiet and/or live in Asshai.

I believe the Ifequevron are considered by many to be the Essosi equivalent of the CotF. But they were either killed off, or permanently relocated. I would imagine if the main practicers of a magic leave or become extinct, the magic would die out in time. There are still some CotF in Westeros. We know that for a fact. Could be they are exerting their efforts for one last stand before they leave the world and take their magic with them. Could be the Ifequevron did that themselves before they disappeared.

I'm good with the Starks inheriting powers through the Warg King's line but it bugs me that the info in the wiki says his daughters were taken as prizes. That doesn't exactly imply marriage. Does the actual info in TWOIAF state that differently?

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1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I'm not sure we have an accurate idea of the full magical climate in Essos. So far we've only seen it through Dany's eyes, with a smattering of Quentyn, Tyrion, and Barristan, and really those three aren't out traveling widely or there for the culture. We spend way more time in Westeros so of course we're seeing more there. Essos is pretty huge and we haven't seen much of it at all. If they have a large base of skinchangers anywhere, my bet is that they keep it quiet and/or live in Asshai.

I believe the Ifequevron are considered by many to be the Essosi equivalent of the CotF. But they were either killed off, or permanently relocated. I would imagine if the main practicers of a magic leave or become extinct, the magic would die out in time. There are still some CotF in Westeros. We know that for a fact. Could be they are exerting their efforts for one last stand before they leave the world and take their magic with them. Could be the Ifequevron did that themselves before they disappeared.

I'm good with the Starks inheriting powers through the Warg King's line but it bugs me that the info in the wiki says his daughters were taken as prizes. That doesn't exactly imply marriage. Does the actual info in TWOIAF state that differently?

You might be right about Ifeqevron, even Dothrakis try to avoid the "wood walkers" who might be actually Essosi Children. But again, as you said, we don't know too much about it.

Well, I see your skepticism about Starks "marrying" the daughters of Warg king, but it will not be inconsistent with their portrayal since we know they did exact same thing with Marsh King and Barrow King. Even if they did not marry daughters of Warg King and took them as concubines or something like that, I imagine some of them gave births to new generation of Starks with the blood of Warg King in them.

And these new Stark kids do not necessarily need to be bastards, because we have the tale of Bael the Bard who deflowered a Stark maiden, and the son of their union succeeded the father of the maid as Lord of Winterfell and later slew his own wildling father.

But I don't know, I think the fact that current Starks have the abilities of skinchanging and warging clearly hint that there is strong Children of the Forest magic involved, especially Bran.

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