Does fAegon annoy anyone else?

[The Fattest Leech]

11 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

We truly only know Harry the Heir's coloring.  Harry supposedly has Jon Arryn's "look" but we don't know if this includes build, facial features, coloring, or a combination of some or all of these traits.

And such is the way of genetic tellings in Westeros. This also shows up the the fact that all of Robert's actual children look like him, which is why we know Joffery and his sibs are not his. George is keeping the genetics simple because the birth of people is part of the bigger story, not necessarily the main story itself. And George does not have every detail worked out about his characters (so far and his admission), but during the discussion with him where I gave him my note card, he did not disagree, as he did rather quickly with something else. If he gave me a "No", or any other answer that told me to drop this theory, I would in a heartbeat, but he didn't... and I actually never thought it would see light again until a few days ago

[Lord Varys]

We have a lot of Valyrian descendants where we don't know anything about their coloring nor do we have a complete list of the features of the Targaryens. Had Alyssa Velaryon both silver-gold hair and purple eyes? What about Aemma Arryn? Boremund and Jocelyn Baratheon? What about the Velaryons in general? They did not practice incest nor did they only marry Valyrian descendants. Corlys, Laena, and Laenor all had Valyrian features and the Velaryons still keep them, more or less, as is visible in Aurane Waters and Monford Velaryon.

How did Matarys Targaryen look like? Or Prince Rhaegel and his three children? What about Princess Vaella and Prince Maegor?

We have basically no idea. In that sense it is pretty difficult to try to come up with a general rule there.

[The Fattest Leech]

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We have a lot of Valyrian descendants where we don't know anything about their coloring nor do we have a complete list of the features of the Targaryens. Had Alyssa Velaryon both silver-gold hair and purple eyes? What about Aemma Arryn? Boremund and Jocelyn Baratheon? What about the Velaryons in general? They did not practice incest nor did they only marry Valyrian descendants. Corlys, Laena, and Laenor all had Valyrian features and the Velaryons still keep them, more or less, as is visible in Aurane Waters and Monford Velaryon.

How did Matarys Targaryen look like? Or Prince Rhaegel and his three children? What about Princess Vaella and Prince Maegor?

We have basically no idea. In that sense it is pretty difficult to try to come up with a general rule there.

You know as well as I do that George did not have all of this mapped out back to the 10th generation, or some offshoot side family, etc when he first started writing this series. As of now, this is what we have because we do not have a full history book, and probably never will get one- even though I know how much you love those big ol'tomes. Besides, these people are not the main focus of the story, so he did not need to add eye color to each of the hunnerds and hunnerds he invented along the way. The same that we will never know the minute details about every culture either.

And all in, this really doesn't do anything to the story at all besides gives a clever way to "hide" Jon in plain sight that is also consistent with the storytelling.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

You know as well as I do that George did not have all of this mapped out back to the 10th generation, or some offshoot side family, etc when he first started writing this series. As of now, this is what we have because we do not have a full history book, and probably never will get one- even though I know how much you love those big ol'tomes. Besides, these people are not the main focus of the story, so he did not need to add eye color to each of the hunnerds and hunnerds he invented along the way. The same that we will never know the minute details about every culture either.

And all in, this really doesn't do anything to the story at all besides gives a clever way to "hide" Jon in plain sight that is also consistent with the storytelling.

Jon could have silver-gold hair and purple eyes all day long and not be Rhaegar's son. If Ned had presented Westeros and the readers with a Lysene whore as his mother nobody would have questioned that. And at least for purple eyes we could easily enough go with Ashara Dayne.

But you don't have to come up with a fancy theory about a general rule when and when not Targaryen children with a non-Valyrian parent don't have (all) the features the Valyrians are famous for. You can just go with the information as it is set up in AGoT - some children (Robb, Sansa, Brandon, and Rickon) resemble their mother and some (Arya, allegedly Jon Snow) resemble their father.

Some children even resemble both - Catelyn later sees aspects of Ned in Robb, and Rhaego apparently would have had Dany's hair and Drogo's skin color.

If George would have a system in place there then he would actually make use of that in his fake history stuff as well as in the Dunk & Egg novellas. It would make things more obvious and not obscure them.

The Aemon-Jocelyn match is pretty important there. The magical blood of the Durrandon-Baratheons should have made Princess Rhaenys and all her Velaryon children and their descendants - who are the present-day Velaryons through Laena's daughter Baela who married Alyn Oakenfist - as black-haired as the Baratheons. Yet that didn't happen. If silver-gold hair and purple eyes won over in Rhaenys, her children, and possibly even their mother Jocelyn and if the Velaryons keep their Valyrian features to a pretty strong degree despite the fact that they don't practice incest I see no reason to assume that there special rules in place explaining when a Targaryen gets Valyrian looks and when not.

[The Fattest Leech]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon could have silver-gold hair and purple eyes all day long and not be Rhaegar's son. If Ned had presented Westeros and the readers with a Lysene whore as his mother nobody would have questioned that. And at least for purple eyes we could easily enough go with Ashara Dayne.

But you don't have to come up with a fancy theory about a general rule when and when not Targaryen children with a non-Valyrian parent don't have (all) the features the Valyrians are famous for. You can just go with the information as it is set up in AGoT - some children (Robb, Sansa, Brandon, and Rickon) resemble their mother and some (Arya, allegedly Jon Snow) resemble their father.

Some children even resemble both - Catelyn later sees aspects of Ned in Robb, and Rhaego apparently would have had Dany's hair and Drogo's skin color.

If George would have a system in place there then he would actually make use of that in his fake history stuff as well as in the Dunk & Egg novellas. It would make things more obvious and not obscure them.

The Aemon-Jocelyn match is pretty important there. The magical blood of the Durrandon-Baratheons should have made Princess Rhaenys and all her Velaryon children and their descendants - who are the present-day Velaryons through Laena's daughter Baela who married Alyn Oakenfist - as black-haired as the Baratheons. Yet that didn't happen. If silver-gold hair and purple eyes won over in Rhaenys, her children, and possibly even their mother Jocelyn and if the Velaryons keep their Valyrian features to a pretty strong degree despite the fact that they don't practice incest I see no reason to assume that there special rules in place explaining when a Targaryen gets Valyrian looks and when not.

And you are missing the point all in order to try and prove me wrong. And way over complicating it. As I said before, and in my theory thread, this is just more of a pattern that I noticed, so I asked George about it, he did not deny it, so I wrote about it.

And you can't be serious in taking a vision Dany has as actual truth???

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And you are missing the point all in order to try and prove me wrong. And way over complicating it. As I said before, and in my theory thread, this is just more of a pattern that I noticed, so I asked George about it, he did not deny it, so I wrote about it.

I'd not call it a pattern. There are certain instances where the eldest child in such scenarios has non-Valyrian features (Baelor, Duncan, Rhaenys), but we don't have enough information to see a pattern there. Aegon II is the best argument against that, and we also don't know how Rhaegel, his children, Aemon, Daella, Rhae, Shaera, and Rhaelle looked like, nor have we any idea how Daenerys' Martell children, Elaena's Penrose children, etc. looked like.

That is too little information for an actual pattern.

And thinking about that, we only know in the case of Baelor that he really had no visible Valyrian features. We have yet to get a description of Duncan Targaryen and while Princess Rhaenys' hair was apparently dark we have no idea about her eyes.

15 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And you can't be serious in taking a vision Dany has as actual truth???

Why not? A lot of the stuff therein is pretty much true. Not to mention that the idea of Drogo's son actually taking both after him and his mother sounds pretty convincing to me. Again, there is also quite a lot of Ned in Robb and so on. People can't be reduced to their hair and eye color.

Rhaenys might not have had her father's hair (and perhaps not even his eyes) but she could still have had his face.

[The Fattest Leech]

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd not call it a pattern. There are certain instances where the eldest child in such scenarios has non-Valyrian features (Baelor, Duncan, Rhaenys), but we don't have enough information to see a pattern there. Aegon II is the best argument against that, and we also don't know how Rhaegel, his children, Aemon, Daella, Rhae, Shaera, and Rhaelle looked like, nor have we any idea how Daenerys' Martell children, Elaena's Penrose children, etc. looked like.

That is too little information for an actual pattern.

And thinking about that, we only know in the case of Baelor that he really had no visible Valyrian features. We have yet to get a description of Duncan Targaryen and while Princess Rhaenys' hair was apparently dark we have no idea about her eyes.

Why not? A lot of the stuff therein is pretty much true. Not to mention that the idea of Drogo's son actually taking both after him and his mother sounds pretty convincing to me. Again, there is also quite a lot of Ned in Robb and so on. People can't be reduced to their hair and eye color.

Rhaenys might not have had her father's hair (and perhaps not even his eyes) but she could still have had his face.

Thank you, Sheldon.

And don't get me wrong, I mean this in the cool aunt who gives you sips of her "orange juice" because you like the way it tickles your nose kinda way. NOT the angry mom with arms crossed reaming you out because you haven't cleaned you room.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd not call it a pattern. There are certain instances where the eldest child in such scenarios has non-Valyrian features (Baelor, Duncan, Rhaenys), but we don't have enough information to see a pattern there. Aegon II is the best argument against that, and we also don't know how Rhaegel, his children, Aemon, Daella, Rhae, Shaera, and Rhaelle looked like, nor have we any idea how Daenerys' Martell children, Elaena's Penrose children, etc. looked like.

That is too little information for an actual pattern.

And thinking about that, we only know in the case of Baelor that he really had no visible Valyrian features. We have yet to get a description of Duncan Targaryen and while Princess Rhaenys' hair was apparently dark we have no idea about her eyes.

Why not? A lot of the stuff therein is pretty much true. Not to mention that the idea of Drogo's son actually taking both after him and his mother sounds pretty convincing to me. Again, there is also quite a lot of Ned in Robb and so on. People can't be reduced to their hair and eye color.

Rhaenys might not have had her father's hair (and perhaps not even his eyes) but she could still have had his face.

Try the only one.

We can't go on information we don't have to disprove information we do have. What we DO have indicates a clear pattern. Unless GRRM gives us info that changes it, the pattern stands. 

We have a picture in TWOIAF. No artwork went in that wasn't run past GRRM first. Duncan looked like one would imagine his mother Black Betha's son would.

Her eyes were dark too. That what color of dark we don't know. 

Which is why it's funny when people completely ignore the very Rhaegar-like tendencies Jon has.

Well if Rhaegar's face looked Dornish, that would be possible.

[The Fresh PtwP]

5 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Try the only one.

We can't go on information we don't have to disprove information we do have. What we DO have indicates a clear pattern. Unless GRRM gives us info that changes it, the pattern stands. 

We have a picture in TWOIAF. No artwork went in that wasn't run past GRRM first. Duncan looked like one would imagine his mother Black Betha's son would.

Her eyes were dark too. That what color of dark we don't know. 

Which is why it's funny when people completely ignore the very Rhaegar-like tendencies Jon has.

Well if Rhaegar's face looked Dornish, that would be possible.

Which tendencies are these?

[rotting sea cow]

Late to the party, but actually the name fAegon annoys me!

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Try the only one.

We can't go on information we don't have to disprove information we do have. What we DO have indicates a clear pattern. Unless GRRM gives us info that changes it, the pattern stands. 

No, because we also have Prince Valarr having a streak of silver-gold hair despite the fact that he is the son of a Targaryen with no Valyrian features who married a Dondarrion (who may or may not have Targaryen ancestors of her own).

The point here is not that I don't believe that there can be Targaryen children who don't have Valyrian features - sure they can - but that I don't buy the idea that it makes sense to assume that there is a general tendency that the first child always does not resemble the Targaryen parent in such a non-incestuous marriage.

We have no idea how Alicent's children looked like aside from Aegon II - Helaena, Aemond, Daeron, or some of them could have resembled their mother more than their father. The same could go for Maester Aemon (about whose eyes and original hair color we have as of yet no idea), Daella, Rhae, Shaera, Rhaelle, Vaella, Aelor, Aelora, and Daenora.

The twins would be a very interesting thing. Who is the firstborn there? Those are non-identical twins by a Targaryen father and an Arryn mother.

Or take the Blackfyres. We have no idea what Rohanne of Tyrosh looked like or whether she was pure-blooded Valyrian. Daemon II looked like his father but what about his two elder brothers, the twins, or Haegon, Aenys, etc.? 

10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

We have a picture in TWOIAF. No artwork went in that wasn't run past GRRM first. Duncan looked like one would imagine his mother Black Betha's son would.

Yes, but that doesn't mean he did not also resemble his father nor do we have a clear picture whether he had purplish or bluish eyes of this or that shade. The hair is not everything as characters like Bittersteel prove.

10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Well if Rhaegar's face looked Dornish, that would be possible.

No, because facial features cannot be reduced to eye color and hair color. If Aegon (or Jon) has Rhaegar's nose, ears, facial structure, etc. then you can also recognize the parent in the child irregardless of eye color or hair color. You don't have to have the hair color of a parent to have his or her face. Rhaenys could easily enough have had her father's face while having dark hair. That is not mutually exclusive. Just Baelor could have had his father's face while lacking his hair and eye color.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

Late to the party, but actually the name fAegon annoys me!

Me too. Black or red, an Aegon is still an Aegon. 

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, because we also have Prince Valarr having a streak of silver-gold hair despite the fact that he is the son of a Targaryen with no Valyrian features who married a Dondarrion (who may or may not have Targaryen ancestors of her own).

The point here is not that I don't believe that there can be Targaryen children who don't have Valyrian features - sure they can - but that I don't buy the idea that it makes sense to assume that there is a general tendency that the first child always does not resemble the Targaryen parent in such a non-incestuous marriage.

We have no idea how Alicent's children looked like aside from Aegon II - Helaena, Aemond, Daeron, or some of them could have resembled their mother more than their father. The same could go for Maester Aemon (about whose eyes and original hair color we have as of yet no idea), Daella, Rhae, Shaera, Rhaelle, Vaella, Aelor, Aelora, and Daenora.

The twins would be a very interesting thing. Who is the firstborn there? Those are non-identical twins by a Targaryen father and an Arryn mother.

Or take the Blackfyres. We have no idea what Rohanne of Tyrosh looked like or whether she was pure-blooded Valyrian. Daemon II looked like his father but what about his two elder brothers, the twins, or Haegon, Aenys, etc.? 

Yes, but that doesn't mean he did not also resemble his father nor do we have a clear picture whether he had purplish or bluish eyes of this or that shade. The hair is not everything as characters like Bittersteel prove.

No, because facial features cannot be reduced to eye color and hair color. If Aegon (or Jon) has Rhaegar's nose, ears, facial structure, etc. then you can also recognize the parent in the child irregardless of eye color or hair color. You don't have to have the hair color of a parent to have his or her face. Rhaenys could easily enough have had her father's face while having dark hair. That is not mutually exclusive. Just Baelor could have had his father's face while lacking his hair and eye color.

Tenacious V and the pick to death the story.

You still are not getting it and you are still over complicating it by trying to bring in to your argument things like "what all the other children look like". The subsequesnt children do not matter as much because, like I said, this is a way to hide a certain prince in plain sight in the current story... which is all that matters. The chances we get any other books he has lined up that he says will be written after ADOS is slim to non. The main 7 books are what matters most. The other stuff is just vegetarian gravy.

This is a fantasy where the we are limited to DNA tests by looks. This is not The People's Court (RIP Wapner), or Maury Povich, or some scientific publication.

More importantly, you managed to take a theory discussion that belongs in this thread here, and are debating it in this fAegon thread. If you don't like the theory, fine, but discuss it where it belongs.

Also things like Valarr are discussed in the T/nT thread. Basically, that is one of those looks reflects the actions you have been told about. He is technically only 1/4 Targ, so only a streak, like his hair (the only Targ looking thing about him) and he sides with the dragons, which is kinda in conflict with his other sides. It is like each person is their own sigil. 

If I need to update that main thread post to be more clear, I will. Honestly, I never thought it would come up again because, as I have said, it does not really influence much in the story... besides to hide the prince in plain sight.

If you have any other issues with this theory, take it up with George as it seems you have a special red phone that wires directly to him. He has seen this theory, we talked about it, he did not give it a "no", as he is not shy to do. So, if you can't trust him on this, then you can't trust him on anything because who knows when he will be lying next to his fans???

[rotting sea cow]

40 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Me too. Black or red, an Aegon is still an Aegon. 

Indeed. He is Aegon, whatever his background is. Denying his name is Reek-ifing him.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Late to the party, but actually the name fAegon annoys me!

 

42 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Me too. Black or red, an Aegon is still an Aegon. 

I did not mind it at first because on my first read or two I did believe he was false. But after seeing the light and understanding on his most probably Blackfyre (etc) side, it kinda annoys me too for the reasons LM points out.

[rotting sea cow]

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I did not mind it at first because on my first read or two I did believe he was false. But after seeing the light and understanding on his most probably Blackfyre (etc) side, it kinda annoys me too for the reasons LM points out.

Things go even beyond that. Identity struggles are a recurrent theme in the books, with the most extreme examples of Theon/Reek, Arya/FM and Sansa/Alyane, but also appear in Daenerys and her many titles, Jon and his bastardy, Davos lord/smuggler duality and many others. Even secondary characters are used to further this topic like Mance giving away hints to Jon that he is still alive and glamored as Rattleshirt and Jeyne Poole still pretending to be Arya.

And then Aegon, whose background is still unknown but likely a Blackfyre. Varys and Illyrio have done to him what Ramsay/FM/Littlefinger couldn't do to Theon/Arya/Sansa. They created and modeled someone to fit their political agenda. They deprived him of all joys of chilhood and family because the-ends-justify-the-means and the perfect prince is -in their minds - what Westeros needs. In the end, is something very cruel to do to a person.

I'm sorry for Aegon because he will be crushed when he understands the lie of his life but I really hope that he gets the throne and hang these two psychopaths.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, rotting sea cow said:

Things go even beyond that. Identity struggles are a recurrent theme in the books, with the most extreme examples of Theon/Reek, Arya/FM and Sansa/Alyane, but also appear in Daenerys and her many titles, Jon and his bastardy, Davos lord/smuggler duality and many others. Even secondary characters are used to further this topic like Mance giving away hints to Jon that he is still alive and glamored as Rattleshirt and Jeyne Poole still pretending to be Arya.

And then Aegon, whose background is still unknown but likely a Blackfyre. Varys and Illyrio have done to him what Ramsay/FM/Littlefinger couldn't do to Theon/Arya/Sansa. They created and modeled someone to fit their political agenda. They deprived him of all joys of chilhood and family because the-ends-justify-the-means and the perfect prince is -in their minds - what Westeros needs. In the end, is something very cruel to do to a person.

I'm sorry for Aegon because he will be crushed when he understands the lie of his life but I really hope that he gets the throne and hang these two psychopaths.

Absolutely. We see this in every main character, and even some more active secondary characters. It is part of character and plot development and the story would be boring without any discovery or growth.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

17 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

Which tendencies are these?

The emo ones. Melancholy temperament and all that goes with it.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, because we also have Prince Valarr having a streak of silver-gold hair despite the fact that he is the son of a Targaryen with no Valyrian features who married a Dondarrion (who may or may not have Targaryen ancestors of her own).

The point here is not that I don't believe that there can be Targaryen children who don't have Valyrian features - sure they can - but that I don't buy the idea that it makes sense to assume that there is a general tendency that the first child always does not resemble the Targaryen parent in such a non-incestuous marriage.

We have no idea how Alicent's children looked like aside from Aegon II - Helaena, Aemond, Daeron, or some of them could have resembled their mother more than their father. The same could go for Maester Aemon (about whose eyes and original hair color we have as of yet no idea), Daella, Rhae, Shaera, Rhaelle, Vaella, Aelor, Aelora, and Daenora.

The twins would be a very interesting thing. Who is the firstborn there? Those are non-identical twins by a Targaryen father and an Arryn mother.

Or take the Blackfyres. We have no idea what Rohanne of Tyrosh looked like or whether she was pure-blooded Valyrian. Daemon II looked like his father but what about his two elder brothers, the twins, or Haegon, Aenys, etc.? 

Yes, but that doesn't mean he did not also resemble his father nor do we have a clear picture whether he had purplish or bluish eyes of this or that shade. The hair is not everything as characters like Bittersteel prove.

No, because facial features cannot be reduced to eye color and hair color. If Aegon (or Jon) has Rhaegar's nose, ears, facial structure, etc. then you can also recognize the parent in the child irregardless of eye color or hair color. You don't have to have the hair color of a parent to have his or her face. Rhaenys could easily enough have had her father's face while having dark hair. That is not mutually exclusive. Just Baelor could have had his father's face while lacking his hair and eye color.

A streak by itself is not enough to count against the theory. Nor is it remotely on par with Aegon II who had a classic Valyrian look. Elaena Targaryen had a streak of gold in her hair. Yet no one ever mentions that. Why? Because by itself it's fairly meaningless.

Despite the fact that the information we have bears that out. Okay. Your choice.

Again, you cannot base a theory or an argument against one on non-existent data. We have to work with what we have. Hence the unknowns not being included as evidence for the theory. Per The Rogue Prince, Daeron (son of Alicent) had the coloring of the "blood of the dragon."

Yes, they would be interesting. They could take after one parent each, or both after the mother, or both after the father. But again, we can't work from what we don't have, only from what we do have. And as the twins can't be an argument in favor of the theory, nor can they be used as an argument against it.

You can't refute a theory with information that doesn't exist. Is there an echo in here?

Having seen the approved portrait of Aegon V, and the picture of Duncan, I can say without doubt that he did not resemble his father. Agreed on the eyes.

I never said they could. Rhaenys was obviously Dornish-looking. Aegon was obviously Targaryen-looking. The Dornish and the Valyrians have never said to have similar facial structure or features. This does not seem particularly vague to me.

Yes, she could have, but then it would be unlikely that GRRM would say she looked more like a Martell than a Targaryen. As opposed to Aegon who looked more like a Targaryen.

[Isobel Harper]

13 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Things go even beyond that. Identity struggles are a recurrent theme in the books, with the most extreme examples of Theon/Reek, Arya/FM and Sansa/Alyane, but also appear in Daenerys and her many titles, Jon and his bastardy, Davos lord/smuggler duality and many others. Even secondary characters are used to further this topic like Mance giving away hints to Jon that he is still alive and glamored as Rattleshirt and Jeyne Poole still pretending to be Arya.

And then Aegon, whose background is still unknown but likely a Blackfyre. Varys and Illyrio have done to him what Ramsay/FM/Littlefinger couldn't do to Theon/Arya/Sansa. They created and modeled someone to fit their political agenda. They deprived him of all joys of chilhood and family because the-ends-justify-the-means and the perfect prince is -in their minds - what Westeros needs. In the end, is something very cruel to do to a person.

I'm sorry for Aegon because he will be crushed when he understands the lie of his life but I really hope that he gets the throne and hang these two psychopaths.

I agree. 

My hope is, if Aegon is a Blackfyre descendant, that he is descended from Haegon, the one Blackfyre who attempted to approach the inheritance issue peacefully and with diplomacy.  If he's Aenys's descendant, it would make Aegon's acquisition of the throne that much more beautiful.  I also hope (more than hope, theorize) that Bloodraven will be forced to accept who he is and how he has taken the throne because there are bigger demons (Euron, Others) to fight.  

[jontargaryan]

Yes, adding a big character so late in the series just complicates everything and creates unnecessary hassle.

 

 

Thats probably why WoW is taking so long to write, integrating a major storyline like that