Does fAegon annoy anyone else?

[Lost Melnibonean]

21 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

I agree. 

My hope is, if Aegon is a Blackfyre descendant, that he is descended from Haegon, the one Blackfyre who attempted to approach the inheritance issue peacefully and with diplomacy.  If he's Haegon's descendant, it would make Aegon's acquisition of the throne that much more beautiful.  I also hope (more than hope, theorize) that Bloodraven will be forced to accept who he is and how he has taken the throne because there are bigger demons (Euron, Others) to fight.  

That was Aeneys Blackfyre. Haegon invaded Westeros with Bittersteel for the Third Blackfyre Rebellion. 

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

A streak by itself is not enough to count against the theory. Nor is it remotely on par with Aegon II who had a classic Valyrian look. Elaena Targaryen had a streak of gold in her hair. Yet no one ever mentions that. Why? Because by itself it's fairly meaningless.

I assume that is irrelevant here because it has nothing to do with this theory.

11 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Again, you cannot base a theory or an argument against one on non-existent data. We have to work with what we have. Hence the unknowns not being included as evidence for the theory. 

Well, the problem I have with this particular theory is that it is a theory made on the basis of incomplete data. Such a bad theories by definitions. One can of course see in the fact that there are some Targaryen children not having the traditional Valyrian features a hint that Jon Snow might be Rhaegar's son (we can also go look at Ned and Cat's children - some resemble the mother, others resemble the father). I never contested that. But we have not enough data to claim that it might be the case that the first child of a union where only one of the parents has Valyrian features always resemble the non-Valyrian parent.

That is just stupid.

11 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Yes, they would be interesting. They could take after one parent each, or both after the mother, or both after the father. But again, we can't work from what we don't have, only from what we do have. And as the twins can't be an argument in favor of the theory, nor can they be used as an argument against it.

If you have incomplete data you should not make a theory. I never made a theory, I just pointed out that there is incomplete data.

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I assume that is irrelevant here because it has nothing to do with this theory.

Well, the problem I have with this particular theory is that it is a theory made on the basis of incomplete data. Such a bad theories by definitions. One can of course see in the fact that there are some Targaryen children not having the traditional Valyrian features a hint that Jon Snow might be Rhaegar's son (we can also go look at Ned and Cat's children - some resemble the mother, others resemble the father). I never contested that. But we have not enough data to claim that it might be the case that the first child of a union where only one of the parents has Valyrian features always resemble the non-Valyrian parent.

That is just stupid.

If you have incomplete data you should not make a theory. I never made a theory, I just pointed out that there is incomplete data.

Like that Big Bang whopper. Silly astrophysicists. (Guess Sheldon might not be the right moniker after all.) 

[rotting sea cow]

8 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

My hope is, if Aegon is a Blackfyre descendant, that he is descended from Haegon, the one Blackfyre who attempted to approach the inheritance issue peacefully and with diplomacy.  If he's Aenys's descendant, it would make Aegon's acquisition of the throne that much more beautiful. 

I cannot know from whom Aegon really descends. Being a Blackfyre seems to me the most reasonable options among other possibilities, but I can be wrong. I have a theory or two of how the taking of the throne may happen, but it doesn't matter here.

8 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

 I also hope (more than hope, theorize) that Bloodraven will be forced to accept who he is and how he has taken the throne because there are bigger demons (Euron, Others) to fight.  

I think this is almost for certain. Bloodraven doesn't care anymore about the Blackfyres. He has fought his own ghosts in that cave once he had access to the weirwood network and seen his own mistakes from a vantage position. He has done others of course, particularly Euron.

8 hours ago, jontargaryan said:

Yes, adding a big character so late in the series just complicates everything and creates unnecessary hassle.

Again, Aegon was not introduced late. He was with us at least from ACOK times, in the HOTU visions. Even Varys and Illyrio actions are suspicious in AGOT.

 

8 hours ago, jontargaryan said:

Thats probably why WoW is taking so long to write, integrating a major storyline like that

My take is that the show and the popular fame that came with it, payed a high toll in the writing.

Second, GRRM has problems to contain the story and there are serious issues how to arrange the elements, particularly timeline, precisely to achieve the desired effect.  E.g. Dany needs to come to Westeros at the 'right time', before the fall of the Wall or shortly after. This is hard to achieve as she is far away and thus other characters need to remain reasonably "occupied" until she arrives.

Also the stories have increased in depth with time as the author also grows

 

 

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I assume that is irrelevant here because it has nothing to do with this theory.

Well, the problem I have with this particular theory is that it is a theory made on the basis of incomplete data. Such a bad theories by definitions. One can of course see in the fact that there are some Targaryen children not having the traditional Valyrian features a hint that Jon Snow might be Rhaegar's son (we can also go look at Ned and Cat's children - some resemble the mother, others resemble the father). I never contested that. But we have not enough data to claim that it might be the case that the first child of a union where only one of the parents has Valyrian features always resemble the non-Valyrian parent.

That is just stupid.

If you have incomplete data you should not make a theory. I never made a theory, I just pointed out that there is incomplete data.

No. I mean it has never come up in any discussion I've seen. For example I haven't yet seen a single person claim that Elaena was the product of a fling between her mother and a man from House Lannister. And with the type of theories we sometimes get, it's rather surprising that hasn't come up.

If we had complete data it would not be a theory. It would either be a fact or a pile of nonsense.

And here is the key word. The theory doesn't claim it ALWAYS happens, and that it happened with the kids we don't know about. The theory says that it is possible that it is almost always the case, based on the pattern found in the Targs about whom we do have data. Because the data we do have indicates that this is possible. To claim it always happened would have required completely ignoring Aegon II, which The Fattest Leech has not done.

It's a good thing the scientific world disagrees with that, or advancement in science would be a lot slower. Theories are often based on incomplete data, and then research and study bring in more data that either supports the theory or renders it invalid. It can take several periods of study and data collection before a theory is advanced, proven, or discarded.

10 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Like that Big Bang whopper. Silly astrophysicists. (Guess Sheldon might not be the right moniker after all.) 

Sheldon would be thinking circles around all of us.  He'd probably be over on LmL's threads arguing up a storm. 

[Lord Lannister]

On 2/27/2017 at 6:32 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Me too. Black or red, an Aegon is still an Aegon. 

Joffrey and Tommen have already proven that bloodline doesn't mean crap so long as it's in the interest of others to follow the claim. If young Aegon can press his claim, his questionable parentage will be given a blind eye.

[Lost Melnibonean]

30 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Joffrey and Tommen have already proven that bloodline doesn't mean crap so long as it's in the interest of others to follow the claim. If young Aegon can press his claim, his questionable parentage will be given a blind eye.

Until we get the big reveal. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

31 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Joffrey and Tommen have already proven that bloodline doesn't mean crap so long as it's in the interest of others to follow the claim. If young Aegon can press his claim, his questionable parentage will be given a blind eye.

The ones who really care are on the Blackfyre side. 

[Lord Lannister]

9 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Until we get the big reveal. 

There was a big reveal about Joffrey and Tommen. In the end, it really didn't effect much. Those supporting him, turned a blind eye, those opposing him just feel validated. It will be the same with Aegon, assuming his movement gains momentum. Which with the amount of anti-Lannister sentiment, I expect will.

[Makk]

 

21 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

There was a big reveal about Joffrey and Tommen. In the end, it really didn't effect much. Those supporting him, turned a blind eye, those opposing him just feel validated. It will be the same with Aegon, assuming his movement gains momentum. Which with the amount of anti-Lannister sentiment, I expect will.

I think it did have a pretty big effect. You don't see too many Baretheons who are strongly loyal to Tommen. The Stormlords originally pledged their loyalty to either Renly or Stannis which created the events in a Clash of Kings. If Joffery had appeared to be a 14 year old Robert I don't believe that would have happened.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I can't get over how GRRM had 4 books (four!) to decently set up the Aegon subplot and all we got was a super ambiguous vision in the House of the Undying and some questionable symbolism with a freaking dragon sign. That's...nowhere near enough set up for a character who's presumably going to turn the game on its head. The whole thing reeks of retcon and half-baked ideas, IMO.

[Isobel Harper]

1 hour ago, Makk said:

 

I think it did have a pretty big effect. You don't see too many Baretheons who are strongly loyal to Tommen. The Stormlords originally pledged their loyalty to either Renly or Stannis which created the events in a Clash of Kings. If Joffery had appeared to be a 14 year old Robert I don't believe that would have happened.

 

Lack of Stormland support has more to do with their lack of influence at court.  Per Ned's  POV, KL is full of Lannisters,  despite the king being the former lord of Storm's End.  It was more advantageous for them to support one of Robert's brothers. 

[PCK]

No. His character has plenty of context and fits the narrative and history of Westeros, Blackfyre or, Rhaegar's son.

[Makk]

21 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

 

Lack of Stormland support has more to do with their lack of influence at court.  Per Ned's  POV, KL is full of Lannisters,  despite the king being the former lord of Storm's End.  It was more advantageous for them to support one of Robert's brothers. 

They had plenty of influence at court fairly recently. Stannis left court specifically because he found out about Joffery and then Jon Arryn was murdered. Renly was still at court and still attended council meetings. While it's conceivable he may have made a play for the throne anyway, I believe it would have been a lot harder if Joffery really was like a young Robert.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The ones who really care are on the Blackfyre side. 

Who are the ones who really care? If you mean Varys and Illyrio it is assumed that they are on the Blackfyre side. The GC does not care anymore.

2 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I can't get over how GRRM had 4 books (four!) to decently set up the Aegon subplot and all we got was a super ambiguous vision in the House of the Undying and some questionable symbolism with a freaking dragon sign. That's...nowhere near enough set up for a character who's presumably going to turn the game on its head. The whole thing reeks of retcon and half-baked ideas, IMO.

He's not going to turn the game on its head. The only ones who can do that are the Others, who have been with us from book one.

Aegon's been set up since Ned's memory of the smashed baby head that was unrecognizable. Then there's Varys referring to Elia and her babe--singular. Then Aegon shows up. That fits with the three-fold strategy that one of GRRM's editors said he uses.

Aegon is not going to be a major character. He'll probably die before the end of TWOW. He exists more for the other characters' reactions to him than for anything else. He's a catalyst. And for that we don't need an elaborate setup.

1 hour ago, PCK said:

No. His character has plenty of context and fits the narrative and history of Westeros, Blackfyre or, Rhaegar's son.

Agreed.

[Lord Lannister]

2 hours ago, Makk said:

 

I think it did have a pretty big effect. You don't see too many Baretheons who are strongly loyal to Tommen. The Stormlords originally pledged their loyalty to either Renly or Stannis which created the events in a Clash of Kings. If Joffery had appeared to be a 14 year old Robert I don't believe that would have happened.

Given the Stormlords pledged themselves to Renly before Stannis ever sent out the letters, that can't be attributed to the incest accusation. None of Joffrey's retainers abandoned him after Stannis started spreading the word. In fact many of those Storm lords and lords of the Reach pledged themselves to Joffrey after the letter.

[Lost Melnibonean]

41 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Who are the ones who really care? If you mean Varys and Illyrio it is assumed that they are on the Blackfyre side. The GC does not care anymore.

He's not going to turn the game on its head. The only ones who can do that are the Others, who have been with us from book one.

Aegon's been set up since Ned's memory of the smashed baby head that was unrecognizable. Then there's Varys referring to Elia and her babe--singular. Then Aegon shows up. That fits with the three-fold strategy that one of GRRM's editors said he uses.

Aegon is not going to be a major character. He'll probably die before the end of TWOW. He exists more for the other characters' reactions to him than for anything else. He's a catalyst. And for that we don't need an elaborate setup.

Agreed.

I disagree wholeheartedly. But then, you knew that, eh? 

Reading the transcription of Arianne II, Winds, it occurs to me that Lysono Maar is a descendant of Daemon Blackfyre. The lilac eyes and the white gold hair are more common features in Lys, but still, those are Targaryen features.

The one thing that gives me pause is that he was not known to Jon Connington, who rode with Golden Company for five years. But that was what, 14 years ago? Assuming Lysono is under 30, he would have been still a boy when Jon was in the company.

Assuming Lysono is a Blackfyre helps to make sense of this statement coming from the effeminate spy master rather than one of his more martial comrades...

Quote

"Sack Meereen, aye, why not? I would have done the same in her place. The slaver cities reek of gold, and conquest requires coin."

Notice that Lysono argues most adamantly against retrieving Daenerys. In fact, after Franklyn Flowers endorsed Aegon's proposal to sail west instead, Lysono advised that the Volantenes would be eager to lend them ships to sail to Westeros. Then, when Harry Strickland reminded them that they wanted, even needed Daenerys's dragons, it was Lysono who said...

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"The first Aegon took Westeros without eunuchs,” said Lysono Maar. “Why shouldn’t the sixth Aegon do the same?"

In Arianne II, Winds, we see that in

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Weeping Town, the storyteller takes time to tell us that the corpse of Daeron I remained there for some time after he was killed in Dorne. Is the author focusing our attention on a dead Targaryen for a reason? Rhaegar's heir was also killed, with his corpse displayed for the realm to see.

Arianne's party departs Weeping Town with the rising sun (a symbol of Dorne), through green (the color associated with Aegon's side against the the queen in the Dance of the Dragons) fields, and into the blackest (the color of the Blackfyre dragon) pitch under the canopy of the Rainwood at night. 

We are reminded of what Catelyn told Robb about House Mudd--that the line of Tristifer Mudd ended after his heir failed him. But of course, we meet a Mudd in the Golden Company. So, even though the line was supposedly exinguished, and John Mudd maybe a shoot from a lower branch on the tree, we see that old names thought to be extinguished (like Blackfyre) can resurface. 

Chains's proudest boast is that his great grandfather fought with Blackfyre and followed Bittersteel. Even though, he was bastard born in Essos three generations later, he was raised as a Westerosi, speaking the Common Tongue. 

Then Arianne meets Lysono Maar, and she notes that he speaks the Common Tongue very well, like Chains, no? 

As they talk about the beauty of Targaryen men, Lysono says he has only met one Targaryen man. Well, Arianne and the casual reader would assume he is referring to Aegon. But didn't Daenerys tell us that Viserys feasted the captains of the Golden Company? And shouldn't we assume that Lysono was among those captains who laughed at Viserys? If so, then Lysono has met Aegon and Viserys, but he says he has only met one Targaryen man. 

Lysono claims Aegon is the son of Rhaegar and Elia, but if Aegon is The Blackfyre, Lysono has to lie to effect the ruse, and something about Lysono makes Arianne's skin crawl. This is a signal that the Dornish princess is not so much offended by his effeminate appearance, but that we should mistrust what he says. 

And note that Lysono Maar, just "a sellsword late of the Free City of Lys," is offended by the term sellswords, asserting that the Golden Company is a "free brotherhood of exiles," still persistent even after several failures.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

7 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I disagree wholeheartedly. But then, you knew that, eh? 

Reading the transcription of Arianne II, Winds, it occurs to me that Lysono Maar is a descendant of Daemon Blackfyre. The lilac eyes and the white gold hair are more common features in Lys, but still, those are Targaryen features.

The one thing that gives me pause is that he was not known to Jon Connington, who rode with Golden Company for five years. But that was what, 14 years ago? Assuming Lysono is under 30, he would have been still a boy when Jon was in the company.

Assuming Lysono is a Blackfyre helps to make sense of this statement coming from the effeminate spy master rather than one of his more martial comrades...

Notice that Lysono argues most adamantly against retrieving Daenerys. In fact, after Franklyn Flowers endorsed Aegon's proposal to sail west instead, Lysono advised that the Volantenes would be eager to lend them ships to sail to Westeros. Then, when Harry Strickland reminded them that they wanted, even needed Daenerys's dragons, it was Lysono who said...

 

I've noticed that about Lysono myself. I shared the idea with a fellow member of Forumos and got blasted. But that person didn't really like any of my ideas so it could be we just think very differently. Lysono's a definitely possibility for a monkey wrench in the works if nothing else. But he could also be a Brightflame descendant. Aerion made people's skin crawl too, didn't he? 

Lysono is one man, not the entire GC. If he's got his own agenda he's probably keeping it to himself, not telling the leadership everything. He's a GC counterpart to Varys, which has interesting implications in and of itself.

Spoiler

 

It's also possible that he's not counting Viserys, in the same way that Dany said he wasn't a dragon because fire cannot kill a dragon.

And if Lysono is a Blackfyre why would he want to put Aegon on the throne when he could potentially claim it himself. How many Blackfyres do we need? Perhaps three to balance against the three heads of the true dragon?

 

While Illyrio is not necessarily the best source of info, he has a very good point when he tells Tyrion that Dany can do for the GC what the Blackfyres never accomplished...taking them home. Granted that's before his plans blow up and Aegon takes the GC to Westeros ahead of schedule. Still he has a point. The men who actually fought for the Blackfyre cause are all dead and gone. The ones left just want to go home. Except perhaps for Lysono. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I've noticed that about Lysono myself. I shared the idea with a fellow member of Forumos and got blasted. But that person didn't really like any of my ideas so it could be we just think very differently. Lysono's a definitely possibility for a monkey wrench in the works if nothing else. But he could also be a Brightflame descendant. Aerion made people's skin crawl too, didn't he? 

Lysono is one man, not the entire GC. If he's got his own agenda he's probably keeping it to himself, not telling the leadership everything. He's a GC counterpart to Varys, which has interesting implications in and of itself.

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It's also possible that he's not counting Viserys, in the same way that Dany said he wasn't a dragon because fire cannot kill a dragon.

And if Lysono is a Blackfyre why would he want to put Aegon on the throne when he could potentially claim it himself. How many Blackfyres do we need? Perhaps three to balance against the three heads of the true dragon?

 

While Illyrio is not necessarily the best source of info, he has a very good point when he tells Tyrion that Dany can do for the GC what the Blackfyres never accomplished...taking them home. Granted that's before his plans blow up and Aegon takes the GC to Westeros ahead of schedule. Still he has a point. The men who actually fought for the Blackfyre cause are all dead and gone. The ones left just want to go home. Except perhaps for Lysono. 

Lysono isn't the only one. Take another look at what I said about Chain's proudest boast. And perhaps Lysono wouldn't usurp his cousin's throne (assuming they are Blackfyre descendants) for the same reason most families tend to support the leader of their houses. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

2 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Lysono isn't the only one. Take another look at what I said about Chain's proudest boast. And perhaps Lysono wouldn't usurp his cousin's throne (assuming they are Blackfyre descendants) for the same reason most families tend to support the leader of their houses. 

Good points.