Does fAegon annoy anyone else?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Just now, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Most pictures are just fanart and not embraced by george. This for example is official http://m1.paperblog.com/i/302/3027561/brynden-rios-lord-cuervo-sangre-4-L-bFyUik.jpeg

I am not the order of the green hand but i do support their theories and i think they are great.

Give it a shot bro <3<3

The Targ pictures on the wiki are not just fan art and are embraced by George. He gave detailed descriptions for artists. Funny official picture there. Could be Sheira on that horse.

I will support any theory that makes sense and doesn't require Cirque du Soleil level stretching of the text. I'll even support some that do require stretching, provided those creating the theory admit the possibility of being wrong. 

[Coolbeard the Exile]

3 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The Targ pictures on the wiki are not just fan art and are embraced by George. He gave detailed descriptions for artists. Funny official picture there. Could be Sheira on that horse.

I will support any theory that makes sense and doesn't require Cirque du Soleil level stretching of the text. I'll even support some that do require stretching, provided those creating the theory admit the possibility of being wrong. 

Watch the videos dude they are so well made.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 minute ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Watch the videos dude they are so well made.

I am watching. Just not impressed yet. I have to say I can definitely appreciate your enthusiasm. I don't get that worked up about my own theories. Of course mine are mostly for fun and not all that game-changing.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

I think there's a good chance of a Men vs Others battle near Storm's End. 

What is your thinking there? :)

[cgrav]

50 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

No you got it wrong. The fact that they made the well thought out guess that Jon was R+L=J proved to George that they were dedicated and he wanted that his babies were to be translated to tv by guys that were fans of his books. It is a good guess. The actual answer is incredibly complex and only a few people know about it. George RR Martins knows that R+L=J is a good answer though not correct.

R+L=J is not proved it is not a fact i dont believe it to be true.

Lyanna gave birth to Young Griff Aegon

The things that trouble Eddard is the fact that Ashara couldnt be with her baby and some other things that went down.

This is Catelyn: However, when she finally had gathered enough courage to ask her husband about the Dornishwoman, Eddard demanded to learn where the rumor had come from. Ashara's name was never mentioned in Winterfell again, and Catelyn remembers the night as "the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her".

You should watch The Order Of The Green Hand

 

1) If GRRM quotes are required on top of the textual, thematic, and symbolic evidence to conclude that R+L=J, then shouldn't A+N=J require the same?

2) Young Griff being Lyanna's brings other characters into play, namely Varys and the whole Targ restoration crew. That's a logistical nightmare, and "Little birds" can't be the answer to every Varys-related question. Young Griff being Rhaegar's would also dash the Blackfyre conspiracy's head against the wall.

3) Ned doesn't think about having guilt or misgivings, he thinks the word "lies". If Jon is actually Ned's, then what are the lies?

There's also the logistical issue of just when Ned impregnated Ashara. They'd have to have absconded at Harrenhall, unless some other encounter is posited that has never even been hinted at. 

And then what about Dany's HoTU vision in which she sees Rhaegar talking about Aegon with Elia? That conversation had to have happened prior to his running off with Lyanna. And GRRM has confirmed that the conversation is indeed about baby Aegon.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

1 minute ago, cgrav said:

1) If GRRM quotes are required on top of the textual, thematic, and symbolic evidence to conclude that R+L=J, then shouldn't A+N=J require the same?

2) Young Griff being Lyanna's brings other characters into play, namely Varys and the whole Targ restoration crew. That's a logistical nightmare, and "Little birds" can't be the answer to every Varys-related question. Young Griff being Rhaegar's would also dash the Blackfyre conspiracy's head against the wall.

3) Ned doesn't think about having guilt or misgivings, he thinks the word "lies". If Jon is actually Ned's, then what are the lies?

There's also the logistical issue of just when Ned impregnated Ashara. They'd have to have absconded at Harrenhall, unless some other encounter is posited that has never even been hinted at. 

And then what about Dany's HoTU vision in which she sees Rhaegar talking about Aegon with Elia? That conversation had to have happened prior to his running off with Lyanna. And GRRM has confirmed that the conversation is indeed about baby Aegon.

1) Im not saying 100% it must be that way but i find it more likely. None of the theories have been proven 100% and my theory also requires the same before i can say 100% it is this way. Im just saying that i find it more likely.

2) It would be

3) I don't remember

They banged in Dorne

That was a diffrent Aegon.

[sweetsunray]

31 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

They banged in Dorne

When?

[cgrav]

46 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

1) Im not saying 100% it must be that way but i find it more likely. None of the theories have been proven 100% and my theory also requires the same before i can say 100% it is this way. Im just saying that i find it more likely.

2) It would be

3) I don't remember

They banged in Dorne

That was a diffrent Aegon.

This is what I mean by raising more questions than it answers

2) Unclear what part of that you're responding to. My point was that pilfering R/L's child from the Tower of Joy would require more characters than are present, and brings up a really difficult timing issue because Lyanna had just given birth when Ned found her. Did one of Varys and Illyrio's lackeys jump out the window with the child just as Ned was walking up the stairs? And did they have a wet nurse in tow? Are we saying Howland Reed is part of the plot? Or was the ToJ child Lyanna's second, and if so, what happened to it?

3) There is a text search of all Ice and Fire material at asearchoficeandfire.com. Here's the quote: "Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night." Fourteen years is Jon's age at that time. The lies are that Jon is a bastard, that his mother is Wylla, and that Robert had a legitimate claim to the throne. (yes, this means that Ned treasoned twice, morally right as his actions were).

4) Dorne is a place, not a time, and the timeline doesn't really accommodate doing any kind of nasty in Dorne. Ned was away for about a year, and we know that a great deal of that time was spent at war. If this was supposed to have happened at Starfall, then Ned's journey would have been months longer at the least. 

Now I'm going to watch this video, or at least some of it, and see how it stacks up, but I mean, there is just so much RLJ evidence on every layer. I feel like a lot of the go-nowhere theories are based solely on logistical possibility, as if characters can teleport anywhere and do things without consequence any time they are off page. There's only some misdirection at the very start of the story, with the likely purpose of keeping the reader looking away when otherwise obvious clues are dropped, such as those mentioned in point 3, as well as an intensifying association with fire. And in terms of narrative, N/D is too hidden to be an effectively told story. The Daynes don't really have big themes or symbols built up around them the way the Starks, Targaryens, and Lannisters do as POV and otherwise everpresent characters. There is ultimately the question of thematic significance, which I don't see in NAJ.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

5 minutes ago, cgrav said:

This is what I mean by raising more questions than it answers

2) Unclear what part of that you're responding to. My point was that pilfering R/L's child from the Tower of Joy would require more characters than are present, and brings up a really difficult timing issue because Lyanna had just given birth when Ned found her. Did one of Varys and Illyrio's lackeys jump out the window with the child just as Ned was walking up the stairs? And did they have a wet nurse in tow? Are we saying Howland Reed is part of the plot? Or was the ToJ child Lyanna's second, and if so, what happened to it?

3) There is a text search of all Ice and Fire material at asearchoficeandfire.com. Here's the quote: "Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night." Fourteen years is Jon's age at that time. The lies are that Jon is a bastard, that his mother is Wylla, and that Robert had a legitimate claim to the throne. (yes, this means that Ned treasoned twice, morally right as his actions were).

4) Dorne is a place, not a time, and the timeline doesn't really accommodate doing any kind of nasty in Dorne. Ned was away for about a year, and we know that a great deal of that time was spent at war. If this was supposed to have happened at Starfall, then Ned's journey would have been months longer at the least. 

Now I'm going to watch this video, or at least some of it, and see how it stacks up, but I mean, there is just so much RLJ evidence on every layer. I feel like a lot of the go-nowhere theories are based solely on logistical possibility, as if characters can teleport anywhere and do things without consequence any time they are off page. And in terms of narrative, N/D is too hidden to be an effectively told story. There's only some misdirection at the very start of the story, with the likely purpose of keeping the reader looking away when otherwise obvious clues are dropped, such as those mentioned in point 3, as well as an intensifying association with fire.

1) Wut

2) Am i talking to me?

3) Young Griff would be around that age aswell.

4) I regret my answer there i dont know

Please watch the wars to come series Order of the GReen hand is by far the greatest asoiaf videos i have ever seen and i subscribe to alot.

[cgrav]

It occurs to me just now that maybe "Slayer of Lies" refers to Ned's lies. Calling it now: Dany will reveal Jon's parentage. 

[Coolbeard the Exile]

2 minutes ago, cgrav said:

It occurs to me just now that maybe "Slayer of Lies" refers to Ned's lies. Calling it now: Dany will reveal Jon's parentage. 

Good catch

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

Yes, OP, yes. Gods, yes. Aegon is the woooorst. I mean, I don't necessarily dislike the idea of a second Dance seeing as how I thoroughly HATED the first one as portrayed in the godawful the Princess and the Queen. I also like the idea of Blackfyre revenge. In fact there's a lot to like about this, at least on paper: Varys' long con, the parallels to real life pretenders, etc.

But the execution has been absolutely HORRID. First off, there's been virtually no foreshadowing to what's probably going to be one of the most influential characters in the story, none at all. And no, two throwaway ambiguous lines here and there don't cut it. Overall, there's this sense of lateness to the character, like GRRM chose to include him at the last minute out of the blue. 

And then, the way he's introduced is just tragic. Like compared to Mance's first appearance or Stannis', it just sucks. Like, here's this random kid named Young Griff. Right, I'm still not sure why I gotta care about Griff senior, let alone his annoying kid. Oh, but wait, he's not actually named Young Griff (awww shucks!). Turns out, Tyrion figured out he really is Aegon Targaryen, the artist formerly known as Baby Squished Brains. Let me emphasize this point: the reveal that one of the series' most influential characters was alive came about during an OFF-PAGE GAME OF NOT!CHESS. How exciting! That's not underwhelming or anticlimactic at all! And then a fucking turtle shows up because fuck it. 

But then, this kid who's already changed names once, is most likely going to do it again because he's possibly a (say it with me kids!) a FAKE TARG! Jesus H. Christ, what a convoluted mess, and I didn't even bring up the telenovela literal baby-swapping yet. The cherry on top of the shit sundae is that GRRM chose one of the most boring POV narrators to be the exciting voice to this brand new storyline with brand new characters.

I just can't. GRRM is a good writer. Surely there had to be a way to bring Aegon into the fore in a less terrible way, there had to be. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Aegon is not the only Blackfyre contender. In fact he makes a lovely smokescreen.

GRRM has said that the second Dance doesn't necessarily have to be Dany's invasion of Westeros. 

16 minutes ago, Lyin' Ned said:

Yes, OP, yes. Gods, yes. Aegon is the woooorst. I mean, I don't necessarily dislike the idea of a second Dance seeing as how I thoroughly HATED the first one as portrayed in the godawful the Princess and the Queen. I also like the idea of Blackfyre revenge. In fact there's a lot to like about this, at least on paper: Varys' long con, the parallels to real life pretenders, etc.

But the execution has been absolutely HORRID. First off, there's been virtually no foreshadowing to what's probably going to be one of the most influential characters in the story, none at all. And no, two throwaway ambiguous lines here and there don't cut it. Overall, there's this sense of lateness to the character, like GRRM chose to include him at the last minute out of the blue. 

And then, the way he's introduced is just tragic. Like compared to Mance's first appearance or Stannis', it just sucks. Like, here's this random kid named Young Griff. Right, I'm still not sure why I gotta care about Griff senior, let alone his annoying kid. Oh, but wait, he's not actually named Young Griff (awww shucks!). Turns out, Tyrion figured out he really is Aegon Targaryen, the artist formerly known as Baby Squished Brains. Let me emphasize this point: the reveal that one of the series' most influential characters was alive came about during an OFF-PAGE GAME OF NOT!CHESS. How exciting! That's not underwhelming or anticlimactic at all! And then a fucking turtle shows up because fuck it. 

But then, this kid who's already changed names once, is most likely going to do it again because he's possibly a (say it with me kids!) a FAKE TARG! Jesus H. Christ, what a convoluted mess, and I didn't even bring up the telenovela literal baby-swapping yet. The cherry on top of the shit sundae is that GRRM chose one of the most boring POV narrators to be the exciting voice to this brand new storyline with brand new characters.

I just can't. GRRM is a good writer. Surely there had to be a way to bring Aegon into the fore in a less terrible way, there had to be. 

You have such a way with words, Lyin' Ned. 

The setup was in AGoT when Baby Squished Brains was first mentioned. I'm one of maybe five people on earth who saw that as the giant flashing neon sign that it was.  And there's no reason to assume he's going to be important to the story in any way other than as a catalyst for other characters.

Hey, I like that turtle.

He has an equal chance of being a real one. 

A matter of opinion, ser. If you mean JonCon I have yet to find him riveting but he is not the most boring POV. That distinction belongs to the Greyjoy with the constantly wet hair. 

Yeah, but it would have been boring and people would have complained about it.

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

8 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Aegon is not the only Blackfyre contender. In fact he makes a lovely smokescreen.

GRRM has said that the second Dance doesn't necessarily have to be Dany's invasion of Westeros. 

You have such a way with words, Lyin' Ned. 

The setup was in AGoT when Baby Squished Brains was first mentioned. I'm one of maybe five people on earth who saw that as the giant flashing neon sign that it was.  And there's no reason to assume he's going to be important to the story in any way other than as a catalyst for other characters.

Hey, I like that turtle.

He has an equal chance of being a real one. 

A matter of opinion, ser. If you mean JonCon I have yet to find him riveting but he is not the most boring POV. That distinction belongs to the Greyjoy with the constantly wet hair. 

Yeah, but it would have been boring and people would have complained about it.

I don't know, I don't think saying a dead character's body was unrecognizable counts as the most...elegant or skillful foreshadowing, to be honest. That's like Ugly Betty levels of subtlety. I also think regardless of what he does accomplish, Aegon being alive is a pretty big deal and definitely needed way more set up. 

Like, I'm not even sure how to explain it but to me the whole Aegon thing feels off and awkward, like it happens so weird, like in media res in the middle of the book, I don't know. To me Aegon showing up is something you reveal in like an epilogue or something. 

And Dampy is now leaps and bounds better than JonCon after that new chapter of his. Oh, the advantages of physical and mental torture, they do wonders for those Greyjoys!

I liked the turtle too. I imagine it showed up to call bullsh*t on the Aegon reveal as well

[cgrav]

I suspect that Aegon really did die, and that the repetition of phrasing is significant for reasons of LmL-type symbolism (that is, what does it mean that a dragon's head keeps hitting a Wall?). The idea of a Targ dying at a wall is also good foreshadowing in an unexpected place. 

Or maybe the Pisswater Prince was the real Edric Dayne or something. Because why not. Supposed age difference aside, that actually makes a little sense, now that I think about it. Ashara thus killed herself because she knew her own child had died. And it still establishes the baby swap that Jon orders later on. And double bonus, it explains how Wylla could have been the wet nurse for both "Edric" and Jon. I'm sure something proves this wrong.

[Roswell]

10 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

We get the whole "not dead jk" thing, but also the fact that we will have to sit through a new Dance of Dragons where one side has no dragons yet will be given some kind of plot armour to be seen as a viable threat. And sorry, but that's not as interesting as the White Walker conflict, which has always been meant as the ultimate showdown. The southern politics will just drag on to make fAegon's stay worthwhile and leave much less time for the Battle for the dawn.

Admittedly, this comes from what GRRM originally planned when it was mean to be a shorter series, but it worries me that seven might not be enough to finish the series. And yes I love these books but I'd hope that closure is somewhere on the horizon.

I don't expect another dance of the dragons.  I expect to see a conflict between fire and ice.  I want to see Tyrion and fAegon join Dany's cause and ride the remaining two dragons against the Starks, the Nightsking, and their direwolves.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

9 hours ago, cgrav said:

This is what I mean by raising more questions than it answers

2) Unclear what part of that you're responding to. My point was that pilfering R/L's child from the Tower of Joy would require more characters than are present, and brings up a really difficult timing issue because Lyanna had just given birth when Ned found her. Did one of Varys and Illyrio's lackeys jump out the window with the child just as Ned was walking up the stairs? And did they have a wet nurse in tow? Are we saying Howland Reed is part of the plot? Or was the ToJ child Lyanna's second, and if so, what happened to it?

3) There is a text search of all Ice and Fire material at asearchoficeandfire.com. Here's the quote: "Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night." Fourteen years is Jon's age at that time. The lies are that Jon is a bastard, that his mother is Wylla, and that Robert had a legitimate claim to the throne. (yes, this means that Ned treasoned twice, morally right as his actions were).

4) Dorne is a place, not a time, and the timeline doesn't really accommodate doing any kind of nasty in Dorne. Ned was away for about a year, and we know that a great deal of that time was spent at war. If this was supposed to have happened at Starfall, then Ned's journey would have been months longer at the least. 

Now I'm going to watch this video, or at least some of it, and see how it stacks up, but I mean, there is just so much RLJ evidence on every layer. I feel like a lot of the go-nowhere theories are based solely on logistical possibility, as if characters can teleport anywhere and do things without consequence any time they are off page. There's only some misdirection at the very start of the story, with the likely purpose of keeping the reader looking away when otherwise obvious clues are dropped, such as those mentioned in point 3, as well as an intensifying association with fire. And in terms of narrative, N/D is too hidden to be an effectively told story. The Daynes don't really have big themes or symbols built up around them the way the Starks, Targaryens, and Lannisters do as POV and otherwise everpresent characters. There is ultimately the question of thematic significance, which I don't see in NAJ.

Here is a question for you. Why did Eddard get angry when Robert called Jon's mother a rare wench unless he loved that person?

 Why did Eddard get so angry that he scared Catelyn when she asked about Ashara Dayne?

Do you know that George has said that the fight at the tower of joy we see in Eddard's pov is a fever dream that should not be intrperted as a completely true? 

Why is it always repeated that Jon is much more like his dad than any other children? He is a mini Edd!

Did you know it seems pretty well known that Ashara was into Eddard?Barristan says so!

99.9% of all asoiaf fans are all on the r+l=j train but George has said that only a few have figured it out!

 

 

[Amris]

To just answer the OP: the more often I re-read ADwD the more I come to like Aegon.

Most of all I like his role in the story: shaking things up in Westeros and finally having that invasion we have been waiting for so long.

Also he seems to be a nice kid.

And that his background is shady and offers all kinds of plot possibilities also is cool.

[Adam Yozza]

I quite like Aegon actually and in an ideal world I'd like him to win and take the Throne. After the death of Robb, him and Stannis are probably the only potential rulers I'd consider supporting if I personally was a character in the series. Unfortunately, while Aegon has a strong chance of defeating the Lannister's and becoming King, perhaps even a good one, but he won't hold it for long. When Dany arrives, his ground forces would annihilate Dany's. Golden Company vs Dothraki, IMO, goes to the GC every time, plus the Tyrell forces, Martell forces and whatever else Aegon gets will give him the power to actually be a threat to Dany. In the end though, odds are dragons will decide the outcome and Dany will defeat/kill Aegon and take the Throne.

While there are half a dozen possibilities for Aegon's parentage, the two most likely are that he's descended from one of Daemon Blackfyre's daughters (perhaps even Bittersteel himself) or that he is who he claims to be. With the way I see the Second Dance playing out, I hope he actually is a Targaryen and that Daenerys kills him anyway so as to claim the Throne herself (I don't dislike Dany. Morally I like her, and her character is interesting more often than not, but I don't see her as a good ruler and would she ever really believe Aegon's claim?) 

[Sigella]

20 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

We get the whole "not dead jk" thing, but also the fact that we will have to sit through a new Dance of Dragons where one side has no dragons yet will be given some kind of plot armour to be seen as a viable threat. And sorry, but that's not as interesting as the White Walker conflict, which has always been meant as the ultimate showdown. The southern politics will just drag on to make fAegon's stay worthwhile and leave much less time for the Battle for the dawn.

Admittedly, this comes from what GRRM originally planned when it was mean to be a shorter series, but it worries me that seven might not be enough to finish the series. And yes I love these books but I'd hope that closure is somewhere on the horizon.

Not alone, I'm annoyed af at his reaction towards Tyrion in their cevasse game, and his "I'm the only dragon you need" said full knowing that there exists three actual dragons... ( I totally get Aerion-vibes on these two  )

 

I'm not annoyed at his existence though. To me its kind of fun not to know if he is real, and I sort of hope we'll never know if he is fake or not. 

My annoyance is with the character's morality.