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What awaits in Asshai ?


XIIIsnow

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2 minutes ago, cgrav said:

I don't think Drogo was actively looking for dragon eggs or anything, they were just offered as part of the deal. 

What this really brings up in my mind is the possibility that Illyrio and Varys are hedging their bets with three Targaryens. They were setting Viserys up to inherit Drogo's army, but also trying to get an army of sellswords for Aegon. I think the usual explanation is that they planned a double invasion, with Aegon's army of Westerosi "saving" the kingdom from the Dothraki horde. But then why put all the effort and expense of dragon eggs into the army that's intended to be slaughtered by Aegon? This leads me to believe that the eggs came cheap, or that Illyrio assumed they were fake. Could those be the eggs supposedly placed at Winterfell?

Or were they playing a long game- maybe actually hoping Viserys could actually take Westeros with his Horde and run it as well the little shite could be expected to and with savages as his soldiers- at which point Aegon appears as a savior who could actually be greeted enthusiastically as a liberator?

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1 hour ago, hiemal said:

1. It is possible that Illyrio is telling the truth here, but frankly I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him.

The world has become strange and sick and the Shadow is probably one of the points of infection. I would be very skeptical of any truths that come to us from Asshai.

Well, I am skeptical about everything, from the covers of the book to the index of names :) Yes, there is possibility that something went considerably wrong in Asshai, causing the world to go sick, as you said it. But, as someone who is professionally working with ancient texts, I cant shake the feeling that description of Asshai is so stereotypic, like Greeks describing hyperboreans or amazonians, or whatever else...I am just not sure, if Martin did it with purpose to leave it blury (it's better than to explain every little detail) or because it is extremely important for upcoming events :) nevertheless, knowing about Illyrios secret ambitions and intentions, it is not imposible that he is lying about the egg's origin deliberately. On the other hand, if he thaught them worthless (in manner of eventual hatching) he probably gave them as a gift to princess she thought she'd be futile as those very eggs :) I think that he could't dream that the 13  year old girl, who was just sold to Dothraki lord is going to hatch the eggs in the middle of nowhere. If he thought differently, I think (f)Aegon would receive that gift :)

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3 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Or were they playing a long game- maybe actually hoping Viserys could actually take Westeros with his Horde and run it as well the little shite could be expected to and with savages as his soldiers- at which point Aegon appears as a savior who could actually be greeted enthusiastically as a liberator?

yeah, that's more or less what I'm thinking. I don't see any other reason to have one army that's almost a mockery of the Targaryen dynasty and another that's the "real" Targaryen heir with an army of Westerosi.

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1 minute ago, XIIIsnow said:

Well, I am skeptical about everything, from the covers of the book to the index of names :) Yes, there is possibility that something went considerably wrong in Asshai, causing the world to go sick, as you said it. But, as someone who is professionally working with ancient texts, I cant shake the feeling that description of Asshai is so stereotypic, like Greeks describing hyperboreans or amazonians, or whatever else...I am just not sure, if Martin did it with purpose to leave it blury (it's better than to explain every little detail) or because it is extremely important for upcoming events :) nevertheless, knowing about Illyrios secret ambitions and intentions, it is not imposible that he is lying about the egg's origin deliberately. On the other hand, if he thaught them worthless (in manner of eventual hatching) he probably gave them as a gift to princess she thought she'd be futile as those very eggs :) I think that he could't dream that the 13  year old girl, who was just sold to Dothraki lord is going to hatch the eggs in the middle of nowhere. If he thought differently, I think (f)Aegon would receive that gift :)

Very true- and the line between myth and fact in GRRM's world is so much more blurry than between Herodotus' people with mouths in their stomachs or wars between pygmies and cranes that sometimes I'm tempted to assume that is ALL myth and sometimes that it is ALL true...

:)

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@Lady Blizzardborn "Truth", dragons,...That's Aegon!

Mance's son was in danger, so he was taken away by some woman acquainted to him, a Targaryen maester, a student, like the maester's "squire", and a singer. A short and assorted company.

It seems a hint that some years before, Rhaegar's son (a Targaryen) was in danger and he was taken away by a maester (Marwin), probably a woman (Quaite, o is she Ashara?), maybe some others. Tom O'Sevens and Lem could be in, a bard and a squire. I'm assuming Lem is Richard Lonmouth, I don't remember if he had been knighted. It could work without this couple, anyhow.

Grrm reminds us Asshai frequently, as to highlight its meaning. There must be something important there.

 

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7 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Very true- and the line between myth and fact in GRRM's world is so much more blurry than between Herodotus' people with mouths in their stomachs or wars between pygmies and cranes that sometimes I'm tempted to assume that is ALL myth and sometimes that it is ALL true...

:)

well, at the same time if we assume that Asshai is place unknown and far, we can assume that some of the facts we received from the mouth of westerosi are not true, but exaggerations and  wrong beliefs :)

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...and what really bothers me is that people who visited Asshai didn't tell us anything valid about it :( Euron is speaking about wonders and terrors, Mirri maz Dur said she had to pay the price for her knowledge, Melissandre didn't give us anything yet...

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4 minutes ago, XIIIsnow said:

well, at the same time if we assume that Asshai is place unknown and far, we can assume that some of the facts we received from the mouth of westerosi are not true, but exaggerations and  wrong beliefs :)

But how much is exaggerating the exotic and remote (in time if not space) and how much is deliberate misinformation by the Maesters (for example)?

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4 minutes ago, XIIIsnow said:

well, at the same time if we assume that Asshai is place unknown and far, we can assume that some of the facts we received from the mouth of westerosi are not true, but exaggerations and  wrong beliefs :)

But how much is exaggerating the exotic and remote (in time if not space) and how much is deliberate misinformation by the Maesters (for example)?

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10 minutes ago, hiemal said:

But how much is exaggerating the exotic and remote (in time if not space) and how much is deliberate misinformation by the Maesters (for example)?

The conspiracy of Maesters is legit, but I think we can glean information by proxy and from secondary sources. Moat Cailin, for example, has some oily black stone, poisonous water, and association with ancient magic, so I think it's meant to be a thematic echo of Asshai. That sort of thematic parallelism is the foundation of Ice and Fire's structure, and it's purpose is to reveal bigger mysteries to the reader by presenting smaller ones first. Based on that, I think the physical description of Asshai is accurate, but the doubt would be as to what the Maesters leave out.

There's also a scene when Dany arrives at Vaes Dothrak and sees the gargoyles: "Some of the statues were so lovely they took her breath away, others so misshapen and terrible that Dany could scarcely bear to look at them. Those, Ser Jorah said, had likely come from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai." That description corroborates what we already think of Asshai's appearance.

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3 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Go on...

Do we have any firm description of anything other than "shadow" to the east of Asshai? And the Westerosi are apparently completely terrified of traveling west, over the Sunset sea. 

From the perspective of watching the sun/rise and set in Asshai, everything beyond Asshai's eastern horizon would be a realm primordial darkness (not unlike ancient Egyptian myth). I'd be scared of that. And considering Westeros is home of the shadow-like Others, it's understandable that people who worship Light would consider Westeros a land of darkness.

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3 minutes ago, cgrav said:

The conspiracy of Maesters is legit, but I think we can glean information by proxy and from secondary sources. Moat Cailin, for example, has some oily black stone, poisonous water, and association with ancient magic, so I think it's meant to be a thematic echo of Asshai. That sort of thematic parallelism is the foundation of Ice and Fire's structure, and it's purpose is to reveal bigger mysteries to the reader by presenting smaller ones first. Based on that, I think the physical description of Asshai is accurate, but the doubt would be as to what the Maesters leave out.

There's also a scene when Dany arrives at Vaes Dothrak and sees the gargoyles: "Some of the statues were so lovely they took her breath away, others so misshapen and terrible that Dany could scarcely bear to look at them. Those, Ser Jorah said, had likely come from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai." That description corroborates what we already think of Asshai's appearance.

Yes. Yes! and YES!

To the point that I have been trying to link more and more sights on Westeros with Essosi counterparts and even wondering if the two continents (three? Sothoryos and Yeen seem unimportant, but...) don't represent the same continent from alternate timelines or something equally crazy. The caves around Qohor and those in the Rainwood leap immediately to mind, but I'm drawing a blank on the others I'd been pondering. I'll get back to you.

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4 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Do we have any firm description of anything other than "shadow" to the east of Asshai? And the Westerosi are apparently completely terrified of traveling west, over the Sunset sea. 

From the perspective of watching the sun/rise and set in Asshai, everything beyond Asshai's eastern horizon would be a realm primordial darkness (not unlike ancient Egyptian myth). I'd be scared of that. And considering Westeros is home of the shadow-like Others, it's understandable that people who worship Light would consider Westeros a land of darkness.

we do :)

On its way from the Mountains of the Morn to the sea, the Ash runs howling through a narrow cleft in the mountains, between towering cliffs so steep and close that the river is perpetually in shadow, save for a few moments at midday when the sun is at its zenith. In the caves that pockmark the cliffs, demons and dragons and worse make their lairs. The farther from the city one goes, the more hideous and twisted these creatures become...until at last one stands before the doors of the Stygai, the corpse city at the Shadow's heart, where even the shadowbinders fear to tread. Or so the stories say. (woiaf)

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3 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Do we have any firm description of anything other than "shadow" to the east of Asshai? And the Westerosi are apparently completely terrified of traveling west, over the Sunset sea. 

From the perspective of watching the sun/rise and set in Asshai, everything beyond Asshai's eastern horizon would be a realm primordial darkness (not unlike ancient Egyptian myth). I'd be scared of that. And considering Westeros is home of the shadow-like Others, it's understandable that people who worship Light would consider Westeros a land of darkness.

Ah- so could you, if you could make it through the poisoned lands of the Shadow eventually emerge into the Land of Always Winter and thus to Westeros? A literal instead of thematic connection. The presence of Ulthos on the map make that seem difficult but I'm down. It would simplify things, that's for sure.

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