Old Places / Pale Cold

[Seams]

A re-reading of Jon IV in ACoK, where Jon finds the cache of dragonglass on the Fist of the First Men, took me on a detour to find each location identified as an "old place" in the books. There are some definites and a few probables. In order of appearance in the books:

• Winterfell godswood
• an inn on Eel Alley in King's Landing
• the Fist of the First Men
• Storm's End
• Pycelle's usual seat at the small council in King's Landing (Pycelle is mentioned a second time in AFfC, Cersei I)
• the Hollow Hill of the Brotherhood Without Banners
• the Nightfort
• the job of maester on Dragonstone, as fulfilled by Maester Cressen and Maester Pylos
• Maester Aemon's job at Castle Black
• Sea Dragon Point (possibly)
• Hardhome
• Pennytree

I suspect that these places are "doorways" between life and death or between the regular world and the underworld where the gods live. I'm not entirely sure what that means in the larger scheme of ASOIAF, but it might be something like the ancient Celtic notions of the underworld or otherworld. Communication with the dead might be easier there, or selected people might have the ability to do magical things, be safe from harm or perform feats of strength or heroism. (Sorry if this has all been laid out already in the Hollow Hills thread - I didn't keep up with that all the way to the end.)

Here are the quotes that directly link "old" and "place," or where the words are so closely linked that I thought GRRM's intent was fairly clear. There may be other places - High Heart and Harrenhal come close to being described as old places, but I didn't think the descriptions were quite clear enough. The Fist of the FIrst Men is described six times as being strong, and twice as being old. Harrenhal is a dark, strong and cursed place. So they are both strong, but one is also old and the other is also cursed.

She had been born a Tully, at Riverrun far to the south, on the Red Fork of the Trident. The godswood there was a garden, bright and airy, where tall redwoods spread dappled shadows across tinkling streams, birds sang from hidden nests, and the air was spicy with the scent of flowers.

The gods of Winterfell kept a different sort of wood. It was a dark, primal place, three acres of old forest untouched for ten thousand years as the gloomy castle rose around it. It smelled of moist earth and decay.

(Catelyn I, AGoT)

Just to be sure, Catelyn paid the oarmen herself, a stag to each man, and a copper to the two men who carried their chests halfway up Visenya's hill to the inn that Moreo had suggested. It was a rambling old place on Eel Alley.

(Catelyn IV, AGoT)

It was said that the Fist had been a ringfort of the First Men in the Dawn Age. "An old place, and strong," Thoren Smallwood said.

"Old," Mormont's raven screamed as it flapped in noisy circles about their heads. "Old, old, old."

(ACoK, Jon IV)

Had Ghost uncovered some ancient cache of the children of the forest, buried here for thousands of years? The Fist of the First Men was an old place, only . . .

(ACoK, Jon IV)

"...this Storm's End is an old place. There are spells woven into the stones. Dark walls that no shadow can pass—ancient, forgotten, yet still in place."

"Shadow?" Davos felt his flesh prickling. "A shadow is a thing of darkness."

(ACoK, Davos II - Melisandre is speaking.)

Tyrion had claimed Pycelle's old place at the foot, propped up by cushions so he could gaze down the length of the table.

(ASoS, Tyrion III)

Lem unhooded Gendry. "What is this place?" he asked.

"An old place, deep and secret. A refuge where neither wolves nor lions come prowling."

Neither wolves nor lions. Arya's skin prickled. She remembered the dream she'd had, and the taste of blood when she tore the man's arm from his shoulder.

(ASoS, Arya VI)

"This seems an old place," Jojen said as they walked down a gallery where the sunlight fell in dusty shafts through empty windows.

"Twice as old as Castle Black," Bran said, remembering. "It was the first castle on the Wall, and the largest."

(ASoS, Bran IV)

Davos had been uncertain of Pylos. Perhaps he resented him for taking old Cressen's place. But now he could only admire the man's courage. This could mean his life as well.

(ASoS, Davos VI)

His face was vaguely familiar, though Cersei could not place him. Old, but not so old as Pycelle. This one has some strength in him still. He was tall, though slightly stooped, with crinkles around his bold blue eyes. His throat is naked. "You wear no maester's chain."

(AFfC, Cersei I)

 

 

"I cannot wear a chain."

"You can. You will. Maester Aemon is old and blind. His strength is leaving him. Who will take his place when he dies?

(AFfC, Samwell I)

Sam put a hand to his throat. "My lord, the Citadel … they make you cut up corpses there. I cannot wear a chain."

"You can. You will. Maester Aemon is old and blind. His strength is leaving him. Who will take his place when he dies?

(ADwD, Jon II)

Sea Dragon Point had not always been as thinly peopled as it was now. Old ruins could still be found amongst its hills and bogs, the remains of ancient strongholds of the First Men. In the high places, there were weirwood circles left by the children of the forest.

(ADwD, The Wayward Bride)

"I know where the slaves came from. They were wildlings from Westeros, from a place called Hardhome. An old ruined place, accursed." Old Nan had told her tales of Hardhome, back at Winterfell when she had still been Arya Stark.

(ADwD, The Blind Girl)

Between a duck pond and a blacksmith's forge, he came upon the tree that gave the place its name, an oak ancient and tall. Its gnarled roots twisted in and out of the earth like a nest of slow brown serpents, and hundreds of old copper pennies had been nailed to its huge trunk.

(ADwD, Jaime I)

Once you start looking, you can spot other patterns with types of "places": dark places, places of honor; strong, high (often "high" and "honor" are paired), lonely, holy, haunted, bleak, dismal, bitter, grim, vast, queer and strange places. The great hall at Riverrun, The Whispers and The Eyrie are described as lonely places in relatively quick succession in ADwD.

There are also a number of references to hiding places and places to hide - perhaps wordplay on skinchanging, which involves inhabiting a creature's hide.

When Jaime has his dream that seems to take place beneath Casterly Rock (but it's not quite right to be Casterly Rock), he is told that it is his place. And it is a dark place. Bran also seems to have found "his" place in a dark place.

Jon Snow is often told in dreams that the Winterfell crypt is not his place, and Mormont seems to encourage him to find his place, wherever it might be. Finding "my" place seems to be a theme common to most of the main characters.

I'm on search overload right now, but I realized pretty quickly that "old place" and "pale cold" are probably a wordplay pair. (Sansa even feels that the high hall at the Eyrie as a pale, cold place after Lysa's death, and the same description is applied to Queen Selyse.) So I may add a comment to this thread with some thoughts about "pale cold." The two adjectives are often associated with the Others.

[GloubieBoulga]

Despite the fact it is not named an "old place", can Oldstones enter in your list ? 

Concerning Lysa, the Eyrie and Sansa, that's true : in chapter Sansa VII ASOS (Lysa's death and snowed Winterfell), the hall where Lysa "presides" Sansa's trial is described as the haunted forest invaded by the cold mists, with the sentinels and pine soldiers (the pillars), no torchlight, the cold winds and the whispering of a singer (Marillion), and the weirwood (the seat beside the throne) and the Moon Gate as a mouth. Lysa's face is "painted" and "red" (as a weirwood's face, in fact), her other colors are white (cream) and blue sapphire (the sapphire blue is the color of the eyes of the deads, as noted by Jon in AGOT). At the end, Lysa is finally expulsed from the scene, and Sansa survives to the "god trial" as Alayne Stone.

On 20/02/2017 at 2:31 AM, Seams said:

Jon Snow is often told in dreams that the Winterfell crypt is not his place, and Mormont seems to encourage him to find his place, wherever it might be. Finding "my" place seems to be a theme common to most of the main characters.

And I wonder if that can be reliated to "finding" the true name, the true identity (is Theon Stark, or Greyjoy, or Reek, for example ?). When Sansa has built her snowed Winterfell, she reproach to LF that he promised to bring her back home and that he did not. But is Winterfell really the true place of the Starks ? 

[Seams]

8 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

Despite the fact it is not named an "old place", can Oldstones enter in your list ? 

Concerning Lysa, the Eyrie and Sansa, that's true : in chapter Sansa VII ASOS (Lysa's death and snowed Winterfell), the hall where Lysa "presides" Sansa's trial is described as the haunted forest invaded by the cold mists, with the sentinels and pine soldiers (the pillars), no torchlight, the cold winds and the whispering of a singer (Marillion), and the weirwood (the seat beside the throne) and the Moon Gate as a mouth. Lysa's face is "painted" and "red" (as a weirwood's face, in fact), her other colors are white (cream) and blue sapphire (the sapphire blue is the color of the eyes of the deads, as noted by Jon in AGOT). At the end, Lysa is finally expulsed from the scene, and Sansa survives to the "god trial" as Alayne Stone.

And I wonder if that can be reliated to "finding" the true name, the true identity (is Theon Stark, or Greyjoy, or Reek, for example ?). When Sansa has built her snowed Winterfell, she reproach to LF that he promised to bring her back home and that he did not. But is Winterfell really the true place of the Starks ? 

Oldstones seems like the kind of location that should be described as an "old place," but the author never uses those words to describe it. Like several of the places that are on the "old place" list, it's a ruin. I just re-read the ASoS, Catelyn V chapter as well as the ASoS epilogue where Oldstones is featured. The author refers to it as a castle, but not a place.

With that Catelyn chapter and the epilogue fresh in my mind, though, it is striking the number of similarities between the setting of "Sansa's trial," as you describe it, and the execution of Ser Merrett Frey:

• The Eyrie is described as a haunted forest; Oldstones is overgrown and the hanging takes place in the godswood.
• The singer Marillion is singing at the Eyrie; Tom of Sevenstreams is singing at Oldstones.
• The Moon Gate is an important doorway at the Eyrie; the Oldstones gatehouse is mentioned in both the Catelyn chapter and the epilogue.
• The weirwood "throne" is present at the Eyrie; the sepulcher of King Tristifer is all that is left at Oldstones. ("Get off there," Merrett said. "You're sitting on a King.")
• Lysa dies at the Eyrie; her sister, Catelyn, comes back to life (for the reader) at Oldstones.
• Lysa "flies" when she falls through the Moon Door; Merrett Frey goes, "Up into the air . . . up and up and up."

So I wish I knew why one of these locations is described by the author as an "old place" but the other is not. I'm sure there is a method to his madness, but I haven't figured it out yet.

I would say that finding one's place and finding one's self are definitely related. Arya and Tyrion's series of names indicate that they are becoming new people, and so many other people change their names or acquire nicknames or titles or married names or aliases. I bet you are right that places and names - and the search for them - are related.

As for your final question, about whether Winterfell is the true place of the Starks - that is so interesting! They have been there for centuries, but do they really "belong" there? I found it really suspicious that one of Robb's demands to the Lannisters was that his father's sword should be returned to him (Robb) at Riverrun. It seemed inappropriate that Ice should be sent to Riverrun although, obviously, that's just where Robb happened to be based at that time. I have the feeling that Arya is going to end up at Harranhal. ("If Winterfell is truly gone, is this my home now?") Your question raises an original idea, and one worth considering.

[GloubieBoulga]

6 hours ago, Seams said:

I would say that finding one's place and finding one's self are definitely related. Arya and Tyrion's series of names indicate that they are becoming new people, and so many other people change their names or acquire nicknames or titles or married names or aliases. I bet you are right that places and names - and the search for them - are related.

That was on the sight and I didn't see it before ! Salty, Cat of the Canals, Hugor Hill, the "hill", "stone", "sand", "flower", "snow", "water" and "rivers" : men belong to a place and to the earth, in a kind of way.

;

[GloubieBoulga]

On 18/03/2017 at 3:29 AM, Seams said:

As for your final question, about whether Winterfell is the true place of the Starks - that is so interesting! They have been there for centuries, but do they really "belong" there? I found it really suspicious that one of Robb's demands to the Lannisters was that his father's sword should be returned to him (Robb) at Riverrun. It seemed inappropriate that Ice should be sent to Riverrun although, obviously, that's just where Robb happened to be based at that time. I have the feeling that Arya is going to end up at Harranhal. ("If Winterfell is truly gone, is this my home now?") Your question raises an original idea, and one worth considering.

Coming back to the location, the name and Arya, I come back with an interesting quote from ACOK : Arya is at Harrenhal, a little desperated after she has learnt that Winterfell was token and burnt, and her young brothers killed, and she heards the voice of her father wispering throw the leaves in the godswood (in the same chapter where she ask herself where is her home) :

 

Quote

 

For a long moment there was no sound but the wind and the water and the creak of leaf and limb. And then, far far off, beyond the godswood and the haunted towers and the immense stone walls of Harrenhal, from somewhere out in the world, came the long lonely howl of a wolf. Gooseprickles rose on Arya's skin, and for an instant she felt dizzy. Then, so faintly, it seemed as if she heard her father's voice. "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives," he said.

"But there is no pack," she whispered to the weirwood. Bran and Rickon were dead, the Lannisters had Sansa, Jon had gone to the Wall. "I'm not even me now, I'm Nan."

"You are Arya of Winterfell, daughter of the north. You told me you could be strong. You have the wolf blood in you."

"The wolf blood." Arya remembered now. "I'll be as strong as Robb. I said I would." She took a deep breath, then lifted the broomstick in both hands and brought it down across her knee. It broke with a loud crack, and she threw the pieces aside. I am a direwolf, and done with wooden teeth. (Arya X, ACOK)

 

What I find interesting and that I had not seen before, is that she IS NOT Arya STARK of Winterfell, but only "Arya of Winterfell". And she also "has the wolf blood in her". It sounds like Ned's ghost actually free (and free from Winterfell, because his bones are not arrived at Winterfell) is now able to suggest some true things : the name of Stark isn't associated to Winterfell. But if Arya (and the other Stark) belong to Winterfell, it implicates that the name of Stark isn't truly their name. And also that the wolf blood doesn't come from the lineage but from Winterfell. 

Perhaps it isn't truly the voice of Eddard (it could be BR, after all), but the omission of the name Stark seems to me very significative here : Arya's survival seems to require also that she gives up the name Stark : at the end of her prayer, she think that she is "a direwolf" (even the name Arya has disappeared) and she breaks her broomstick, as if she was breaking the links with the Stark (and Winterfell as an old place for the Stark too, perhaps ?)

 

 

[Seams]

1 hour ago, GloubieBoulga said:

Coming back to the location, the name and Arya, I come back with an interesting quote from ACOK : Arya is at Harrenhal, a little desperated after she has learnt that Winterfell was token and burnt, and her young brothers killed, and she heards the voice of her father wispering throw the leaves in the godswood (in the same chapter where she ask herself where is her home) :

 

What I find interesting and that I had not seen before, is that she IS NOT Arya STARK of Winterfell, but only "Arya of Winterfell". And she also "has the wolf blood in her". It sounds like Ned's ghost actually free (and free from Winterfell, because his bones are not arrived at Winterfell) is now able to suggest some true things : the name of Stark isn't associated to Winterfell. But if Arya (and the other Stark) belong to Winterfell, it implicates that the name of Stark isn't truly their name. And also that the wolf blood doesn't come from the lineage but from Winterfell. 

Perhaps it isn't truly the voice of Eddard (it could be BR, after all), but the omission of the name Stark seems to me very significative here : Arya's survival seems to require also that she gives up the name Stark : at the end of her prayer, she think that she is "a direwolf" (even the name Arya has disappeared) and she breaks her broomstick, as if she was breaking the links with the Stark (and Winterfell as an old place for the Stark too, perhaps ?)

Nice catch. Very interesting details.

The excerpt you cited where Arya hears Ned's voice seems linked to an earlier passage, where the living Ned told Arya about her future:

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."

The prediction about a High Septon among Arya's future children would indicate that Ned has southron ambitions for her (which seems odd for a guy who really didn't want to leave Winterfell to become the King's Hand). But it might reinforce this notion that Arya's "place" is somewhere other than Winterfell; she is "of" Winterfell, but perhaps she no longer belongs there.

The line she speaks, "I'm not even me now, I'm Nan," strikes me as very significant. There is another active thread now that began with the idea that Old Nan is Walder Frey's sister, who was married to Lord Butterwell in one of the Dunk & Egg novellas. I think an additional place to look for clues about Old Nan is in Arya's story. When she uses the name Nan, and tells someone it is short for Nymeria (which is the name of a queen), the author may be giving us a big hint that Arya's future will be similar to that of Old Nan.

Speaking of the High Septon, for the Puns and Wordplay thread, I recently looked at the words "step" and "sept." There are many references to Ned's death on the steps of the sept, and @sweetsunray had an interesting theory that Ned's bones might be among the bones piled around the statue of Baelor the Blessed back at the same place where he died. If Ned's bones end up entombed in the Great Sept of Baelor, maybe that will turn out to be the place where Arya (or her sons) find that they now "belong."

But there's another clue in the excerpt you cite: strong. The word "strong" is used six times to describe the Fist of the First Men, while the word "old" is used only a couple of times. I found that the word "hard" was used to describe north men in the old times, which is what made me suspect that Hard Home might be a place of origin for the Stark family line. But I like the theory you shared with me that the Fist of the First Men might be their original home. And since there is also a House Strong connection for Harrenhal, this "strong" motif could tie Arya and some of the family places together. This could lead us right back to Stark, though, because the German word for "strong" is . . . stark.

[GloubieBoulga]

10 hours ago, Seams said:

But it might reinforce this notion that Arya's "place" is somewhere other than Winterfell; she is "of" Winterfell, but perhaps she no longer belongs there.

I didn't notice the pun of/off, but now it's done !

 

10 hours ago, Seams said:

The prediction about a High Septon among Arya's future children would indicate that Ned has southron ambitions for her (which seems odd for a guy who really didn't want to leave Winterfell to become the King's Hand).

I used to understand here the acceptance of Catelyn's southron culture : Robb is the eldest and will rule Winterfell and the North one day, so the Stark can continue as before, so Ned can accept something different for his other children (especially the girls) as he has introduced the Seven at Winterfell to please his Lady wife. 

Or perhaps, the fact that he passes long time near the weirwood of Winterfell makes him unconsciently feeling that the link with Winterfell must be cut. Ned seems to have very confuse links with the place and his name : it is in the same time a heavy duty to bear and a place he loves. Perhaps because his unexpected lordship made him prisonner, as Robert felt trapped and imprisoned by the Iron Throne and dreamt about being sellsword. 

 

10 hours ago, Seams said:

Speaking of the High Septon, for the Puns and Wordplay thread, I recently looked at the words "step" and "sept." There are many references to Ned's death on the steps of the sept, and @sweetsunray had an interesting theory that Ned's bones might be among the bones piled around the statue of Baelor the Blessed back at the same place where he died. If Ned's bones end up entombed in the Great Sept of Baelor, maybe that will turn out to be the place where Arya (or her sons) find that they now "belong."

I had read this theory and I found it very convincing and plausible, even if I prefer imagine that Ned's bones are in the Neck and that Howland Reed could use them to "evocate" Ned's ghost in some battle, like "Renly's ghost" "came back" for the Blackwater battle (there is also the same with the corpse of king Cleon from Astapor); perhaps, there could be a real magic with the bones, where Melisandre uses glamour and the bones of the Lord of Bones to create an illusion. I mean that Ned's ghost could be a true ghost, not an illusion. An Other-like ? 

By the way, I doubt Ned's bones will one day return at Winterfell to be buried.

To link the "old place" with the cold and not going to far of the pitch, there is the cold hell that Ned imagines for the Stark, after their death : 

Quote

Sansa cried herself to sleep, Arya brooded silently all day long, and Eddard Stark dreamed of a frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell. (Eddard IV, AGOT)

(At my first read, I had seen a little "funny" reference to the heart of the Dante's Inferno (the 9th cycle), which isn't hot with fire and flames as the popular imagery makes the Inferno, but extremely cold and frozen. At the very heart, Lucifer produces frozen winds with his wings and has 3 heads (one white, one red, one black). Later, I realized that in this heart of the Inferno, there are only traitors/murderers : Cain (the kinslayer), Ptolemeos XIII (Cleopatra's brother who invited Pompeus to his court and killed him to offered his head to Julius Cesar = traitor to guests rights), and many others; in the 3 Lucifer's mouth, there were Brutus/Cassius/Judas (kingslayer, bonus kinslayer for Brutus and all false friends). So, I started to ask myself if Stark didn't have an horrible crime to hide ^^)

Just after this quote, Eddard is joining the Tower of the Hand at KL, where he just arrived, and he is stoped by LF who says "you're going the wrong way, Stark. Come with me". LF conducts Ned to a brothel (in the thread "Heresy/the Wall", we have recently established a strong textual link between whores, crows, and slaves, but not deeply studied) where Ned find Catelyn. And speaking of Cat (and looking for keeping the pitch) you quoted : 

On 20/02/2017 at 2:31 AM, Seams said:

Just to be sure, Catelyn paid the oarmen herself, a stag to each man, and a copper to the two men who carried their chests halfway up Visenya's hill to the inn that Moreo had suggested. It was a rambling old place on Eel Alley. (Catelyn IV, AGOT)

the "rambling" could be applied to Winterfell, a very rambling place, but also to the caves of the COTF. "ramble" is employed also for maester Aemon when his mind become's "incoherent", during the travel to Oldtown. The rambling matches well with the name "Eel Alley", and indeed, the eel are white worms under the sea. White worms, weirwoods roots, in a kind of way, nor Ned, nor Catelyn can escape to the weirwood of Winterfell. By the way, this inn isn't the location where Cat will secretly meet Ned. 

Perhaps, this is an eel that Dunk sees at the end of the fight against ser Lucas (in TSS), when he is drowning : 

Quote

 Dunk shoved away and floated. His chest was on fire. A fish flashed past his face, long and white and slender. What's that? he wondered. What's that? What's that?

The fishes in the caves of the COTF are also white and blind (again, we find the old and blind Aemon)

These images are truly echoing, but I can yet determine if all is absolutely conscient from GRRM. I'm inclined to think that some of them aren't calculated and just prove that he is really "possessed" by his theme/song when he is writing. So, some images could also be no more than echoes (seven hells ! where is the spring of these echoes ???)