Jump to content

Why is the Winterfell Heart Tree pond so cold?


Bonkers

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Bonkers said:

lol....why yes. yes it is...but so are the vast number of hot springs around it.

Exactly that! The pertinent question here is about the hot springs, not why the heart tree pool is cold. The heart tree pool being cold is just as it should be, Now, the hot springs are interesting, and maybe even the reason why Winterfell was built where it was, far from the ocean or rivers, in the middle of nowhere. :)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Exactly that! The pertinent question here is about the hot springs, not why the heart tree pool is cold. The heart tree pool being cold is just as it should be, Now, the hot springs are interesting, and maybe even the reason why Winterfell was built where it was, far from the ocean or rivers, in the middle of nowhere. :)

 

I agree.  That's I think why it has been bugging me.  Clearly the water should be just like the pond is, but the vast number of hot water is puzzling, seeing as there is only one pool that is cold, and the location of that cold pond. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Exactly that! The pertinent question here is about the hot springs, not why the heart tree pool is cold. The heart tree pool being cold is just as it should be, Now, the hot springs are interesting, and maybe even the reason why Winterfell was built where it was, far from the ocean or rivers, in the middle of nowhere. :)

 

Well, it is clear that Winterfell was built on the hot springs, as explained very well in GoT, Catelynn II:

Of all the rooms in Winterfell's Great Keep, Catelyn's bedchambers were the hottest. She seldom had to light a fire. The castle had been built over natural hot springs, and the scalding waters rushed through its walls and chambers like blood through a man's body, driving the chill from the stone halls, filling the glass gardens with a moist warmth, keeping the earth from freezing. Open pools smoked day and night in a dozen small courtyards. That was a little thing, in summer; in winter, it was the difference between life and death.

So we know why all the water is warm (or perhaps sometimes even hot), because of the hot springs, that are used to keep the castle warm in winter, and thus keeping its inhabitants alive. So the warm water is as it should be. The Starks built Winterfell there on purpose, to help survive the winter.
The hot springs can be caused by a lot of things, but hot springs we know of in our world, are created by geothermic activity. This means that the water is heated by the earth itself. If we assume that the hot springs in Westeros are also caused by geothermic activity, then we can conclude that the hot springs are the 'natural' state of the water. Some minor temperature differences can occur, but not much. That means that the pond at the heart tree is different from the 'natural' state and thus not explained by logic.

A very deep pond (even if it is in the shadow of a forest), will have more contact with the geothermal source, and should thus be warmer, not colder than other bodies of water in the area. From a geothermal point of view, there should be no reason that water is cold. Even rainwater being collected there, should be heated by the geothermal activity.
There must be a reason why the pond is so cold, is it the tree, is it the Others magic, is it the spot where an ice dragon had died (gods I hope not), is it the spot where the battle for the dawn part 1 was won?
We simply don't know. Perhaps it will be explained in the books (I hope so), perhaps not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Ser Walter of AShwood said:

Well, it is clear that Winterfell was built on the hot springs, as explained very well in GoT, Catelynn II:

 

So we know why all the water is warm (or perhaps sometimes even hot), because of the hot springs, that are used to keep the castle warm in winter, and thus keeping its inhabitants alive. So the warm water is as it should be. The Starks built Winterfell there on purpose, to help survive the winter.
The hot springs can be caused by a lot of things, but hot springs we know of in our world, are created by geothermic activity. This means that the water is heated by the earth itself. If we assume that the hot springs in Westeros are also caused by geothermic activity, then we can conclude that the hot springs are the 'natural' state of the water. Some minor temperature differences can occur, but not much. That means that the pond at the heart tree is different from the 'natural' state and thus not explained by logic.

A very deep pond (even if it is in the shadow of a forest), will have more contact with the geothermal source, and should thus be warmer, not colder than other bodies of water in the area. From a geothermal point of view, there should be no reason that water is cold. Even rainwater being collected there, should be heated by the geothermal activity.
There must be a reason why the pond is so cold, is it the tree, is it the Others magic, is it the spot where an ice dragon had died (gods I hope not), is it the spot where the battle for the dawn part 1 was won?
We simply don't know. Perhaps it will be explained in the books (I hope so), perhaps not.

Well put, and true about the natural state of the water in that area being hotter than the pool.  I like your thinking regarding the water heated by the geothermal activity. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At some point I think we need to factor in that GRRM is an author, not a geologist. 

The geothermal activity in various places around Westeros is primarily symbolic and tells us about the characters in those places, with the practical issues of geology/topography being secondary, if consequential at all. 

To me, the cold, deep black pool represents the starless sky of the Long Night - that is, the realm of death and unlife - being ruled over by a greenseer. In other scenes, we see the sky symbolism corroborated with pregnant women round as full moons going in or out of the water. We even see Ned stick his bloody sword into it, establishing a procreative theme from the outset, and on a more literal level foreshadowing the red comet.

There is thematic significance aplenty, so I don't see much need for self-contained physical explanation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The pool is cold because it is deep, shaded from the sun, exposed to the elements, and because it's in the North.

The Winterfell walls and springs are warm because of geothermal heating.

It is perfectly possible for the pool to be separate from the spring, and the two do not preclude the other from existing in the same area.

 

8 hours ago, Bonkers said:

lol....why yes. yes it is...but so are the vast number of hot springs around it.

Yes, but those hot springs are heated geothermally. The godswood pool is not. End of.

8 hours ago, Bonkers said:

I agree.  That's I think why it has been bugging me.  Clearly the water should be just like the pond is, but the vast number of hot water is puzzling, seeing as there is only one pool that is cold, and the location of that cold pond. 

How do we know this? For all we know there are other smaller ponds in the area that aren't mentioned.

7 hours ago, Ser Walter of AShwood said:

Well, it is clear that Winterfell was built on the hot springs, as explained very well in GoT, Catelynn II:

 

So we know why all the water is warm (or perhaps sometimes even hot), because of the hot springs, that are used to keep the castle warm in winter, and thus keeping its inhabitants alive. So the warm water is as it should be. The Starks built Winterfell there on purpose, to help survive the winter.
The hot springs can be caused by a lot of things, but hot springs we know of in our world, are created by geothermic activity. This means that the water is heated by the earth itself. If we assume that the hot springs in Westeros are also caused by geothermic activity, then we can conclude that the hot springs are the 'natural' state of the water. Some minor temperature differences can occur, but not much. That means that the pond at the heart tree is different from the 'natural' state and thus not explained by logic.

A very deep pond (even if it is in the shadow of a forest), will have more contact with the geothermal source, and should thus be warmer, not colder than other bodies of water in the area. From a geothermal point of view, there should be no reason that water is cold. Even rainwater being collected there, should be heated by the geothermal activity.
There must be a reason why the pond is so cold, is it the tree, is it the Others magic, is it the spot where an ice dragon had died (gods I hope not), is it the spot where the battle for the dawn part 1 was won?
We simply don't know. Perhaps it will be explained in the books (I hope so), perhaps not.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with your conclusion here. Just because an area has a lot of hot springs does not mean that every body of water in the area has to be warmer than otherwise.

The pond may not come into contact with a geothermal heat system at all. Also bear in mind that 'deep' in this context just means beyond the ability of anyone to swim the the bottom of: it doesn't mean bottomless or miles deep or anything. Given that it's a freezing pond in a society with medieval technology, that could be as little as 20m or so (I'm not an expert on free diving or anything mind).

I see absolutely no reason to suggest the pool is anything other than mundane and natural.

 

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

At some point I think we need to factor in that GRRM is an author, not a geologist. 

The geothermal activity in various places around Westeros is primarily symbolic and tells us about the characters in those places, with the practical issues of geology/topography being secondary, if consequential at all.

Actually, GRRM is famous for carrying out extensive research on his topics, and he is a literal genius after all. Given the depth of detail he's laid out for volcanoes, tectonic plates, and geothermal heating in the books (which I can go into further if you're doubtful) it's more than clear that he knows his stuff.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not surprised that he does a lot of research and goes for as much consistency as possible, my only point is that excessive focus on these physical explanations puts the focus on areas in which some inconsistency id perfectly acceptable if not necessary to keep the story up. I think the question of "Why is the pool Cold?" is very different from "What makes the pool cold?". 

Stated otherwise, I try not to let minor inconsistencies in physical descriptions lead or override my interpretation of thematic elements.

5 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

The weirwoods are death trees

Depends if you consider zombies properly dead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

At some point I think we need to factor in that GRRM is an author, not a geologist. 

The geothermal activity in various places around Westeros is primarily symbolic and tells us about the characters in those places, with the practical issues of geology/topography being secondary, if consequential at all. 

To me, the cold, deep black pool represents the starless sky of the Long Night - that is, the realm of death and unlife - being ruled over by a greenseer. In other scenes, we see the sky symbolism corroborated with pregnant women round as full moons going in or out of the water. We even see Ned stick his bloody sword into it, establishing a procreative theme from the outset, and on a more literal level foreshadowing the red comet.

There is thematic significance aplenty, so I don't see much need for self-contained physical explanation.

Yes. I agree 100%.

I'm sure he knew about or researched geothermal activity, but the reason he included the cold pool among the surrounding hot pools was literary, not to give us an interesting detour into geology while we were enjoying the novel.

There is also a literary difference between flowing water and still water in the books. The hot water flows through the walls at Winterfell; the cold water magically freezes (but also weeps) in the Wall patrolled by the Night's Watch. The Alyssa's Tears waterfall at the Eyrie both flows and freezes.

As I explore some of GRRM's word choices, I think I've got a match between dark places and dark pools with cups or barrels of red wine. I think that would fit in with the other imagery you cite - red wine suggests blood, and that goes with pregnancy and sex as well as death - I think the author doesn't want us to be certain whether it was the pie (a pregnancy symbol) or the wine that killed Joffrey. People are often making mulled or spice wine, which seems like an effort to take the edge off the ambient cold temperatures.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

I'm not surprised that he does a lot of research and goes for as much consistency as possible, my only point is that excessive focus on these physical explanations puts the focus on areas in which some inconsistency id perfectly acceptable if not necessary to keep the story up. I think the question of "Why is the pool Cold?" is very different from "What makes the pool cold?". 

Stated otherwise, I try not to let minor inconsistencies in physical descriptions lead or override my interpretation of thematic elements.

Depends if you consider zombies properly dead.

The weirwood trees sucks all the life out of everything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:
1 hour ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

The weirwood trees sucks all the life out of everything.

Sure. That's why all the heart trees we see are in barren and desolate areas. 

That's not quite true. For example:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon IV

Closer at hand, it was the trees that ruled. To south and east the wood went on as far as Jon could see, a vast tangle of root and limb painted in a thousand shades of green, with here and there a patch of red where a weirwood shouldered through the pines and sentinels, or a blush of yellow where some broadleafs had begun to turn. When the wind blew, he could hear the creak and groan of branches older than he was. A thousand leaves fluttered, and for a moment the forest seemed a deep green sea, storm-tossed and heaving, eternal and unknowabl

That seems quite a lush profusion of life to me!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, cgrav said:

I'm not surprised that he does a lot of research and goes for as much consistency as possible, my only point is that excessive focus on these physical explanations puts the focus on areas in which some inconsistency id perfectly acceptable if not necessary to keep the story up. I think the question of "Why is the pool Cold?" is very different from "What makes the pool cold?". 

Stated otherwise, I try not to let minor inconsistencies in physical descriptions lead or override my interpretation of thematic elements.

Depends if you consider zombies properly dead.

Technically zombies are undead. So that would make the weirwoods undead trees, or undeath trees. 

Question for all: is it possible that the hot pools are sucking all the heat out of the ground from around the cold pool and that's why it's cold? I mean scientifically that would make no sense, but you know...magic.

Bigger and more important question: does the cold pond ever freeze?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Technically zombies are undead. So that would make the weirwoods undead trees, or undeath trees. 

Question for all: is it possible that the hot pools are sucking all the heat out of the ground from around the cold pool and that's why it's cold? I mean scientifically that would make no sense, but you know...magic.

I suppose anything is possible at this point... However, I don't think this is a very likely explanation. Some sort of underground volcanic activity (obsidian!) - I don't even know if such a thing is possible, but maybe someone who knows something (anything) about this will chime in and help. But what I'm trying to say is, I think it's more likely that it's something underground that heats the springs. And this "something" will definitely be crucial at a very important moment. :dunno:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Makk said:

You can have hot pools in close proximity to unheated fresh water. I just went swimming in some that feed into a major river a few days ago. It is quite pleasant, you can move a few meters to get a hot to cold effect.

Sounds wonderful! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...