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A Burning Brandon (Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire)


LmL

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13 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I tend to think that there is perhaps a third split with the symbolism of the sparrows, brown brothers, Daemon II Blackfyre as the brown dragon, and Sam getting mud on the colored picture of Balerion. 

On my last thread we were discussing all the mudman clay manmyths in regards to brown dragons, meteors landing in the Neck, Quentyn the frog dragon whose hair and personality are mud and who is burned while trying to ride the green dragon.  What does this equate to in terms of representation? We have Others and fiery NW brothers, where are the mudmen? Is that simply the race of mankind?

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1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

That's fascinating!  So it's like a kind of voodoo black-magic doll with which one curses ones enemies.  And made of wood -- so tree as weapon!

If I remember correctly, vodoo dolls are often pierced in the eye as well.

 

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

In most nkondi figures the eyes and medicine pack covers were reflective glass or mirrors, used for divination. The reflective surface enabled the nkisi to see in the spirit world in order to spy out its prey. Some nkondi figures were adorned with feathers. This goes along with the concept of the figures as being "of the above", and associates them with birds of prey.

 

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

The idea of activating the nkisi effigies by hammering something in and/or coaxing a passage for something to come out is reminiscent of all those scenes in which people have their 'third-eye' capacity awakened, e.g. Bran in which the three-eyed crow hammers away at his forehead (the beak variously a hammer, hoe, or sewing needle) or my favorite example of Jaime whose head is said twice by GRRM to be 'pounding' after his so-called 'weirwood stump-dream', as if the stump, like a hammer had hammered in a message into that thick skull of his -- whereafter he did a 180 degree turn in his life, literally manifested by his injunction to turn the horses around for Harrenhal -- and for Brienne

Nice on Jaime. I would also like to add The Mountain to that as well.  

The image of the Nkondi with the nails and its association as a bird of prey would put it in the realm of the World Tree archetype as we see in the series. Remember that according to the Maya the World Tree is a spiky Ceiba Tree and also conceived to be a upside down caiman, its scientific name is alligatorid crocodilian; a crocodile type of alligator. This may be loose interpretation but House Reed's sigil animal is a lizard-lion. The Wiki for Lizard-lion speculates that since there are alligators in Sothorys than Lizard-lions would be crocodiles. 

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19 minutes ago, LmL said:

What I have enevr heard anyone say, including voice, is that the auroroa borealis literally means "Dawn Lights."

In fact, "aurora borealis" means exactly "dawn of the north" or "pink light of the north", borealis in latin is an adjective for the north, forged after the greek name of a god of the north "Boreas". The origin of this name is actually unknown. 

Aurora just means dawn and has the same root than "east", because the sun come from the east ^^. 

 

(I take time to read all your compendia, I had only read the compendium about lightbringer and the bloodstone Emperor, and I'm with the burning Brandon ^^)

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I was reading GOT prologue... And it's full of greenseer clues... LML, your friend from Echoes of Ice and Fire was 100% right when he said:

Quote
 

 

From the very first line of the novels, through the mouth of Night's Watch ranger, Gared; George tells us “We should start back”.
We are being told straight away that the novels you are about to read, should be read again; twice, three times, even more. There is so much to miss on your first read, future storylines and the fate of characters revealed but disguised by intense plot; there is a whole new angle on a re-read.

 

That's the very first time we hear word 'tree' in ASOIAF:

Quote
Will shared his unease. He had been four years on the Wall. The first time he had been sent beyond, all the old stories had come rushing back, and his bowels had turned to water. He had laughed about it afterward. He was a veteran of a hundred rangings by now, and the endless dark wilderness that the southron called the haunted forest had no more terrors for him.
Until tonight. Something was different tonight. There was an edge to this darkness that made his hackles rise. Nine days they had been riding, north and northwest and then north again, farther and farther from the Wall, hard on the track of a band of Wildling raiders. Each day had been worse than the day that had come before it. Today was the worst of all. A cold wind was blowing out of the north, and it made the trees rustle like living things. All day, Will had felt as though something were watching him, something cold and implacable that loved him not. Gared had felt it too. Will wanted nothing so much as to ride hellbent for the safety of the Wall, but that was not a feeling to share with your commander.
(...)
Royce paused a moment, staring off into the distance, his face reflective. A cold wind whispered through the trees. His great sable cloak stirred behind like something half-alive.
(...)
Will could feel it. Four years in the Night's Watch, and he had never been so afraid. What was it?
"Wind. Trees rustling. A wolf. (Note no 'or' between them)
Which sound is it that unmans you so, Gared?"
This is about mutilation of Garth the fertility god when he comes north, right?
When Gared did not answer, Royce slid gracefully from his saddle. He tied the destrier securely to a low-hanging limb, well away from the other horses, and drew his longsword from its sheath. Jewels glittered in its hilt, and the moonlight ran down the shining steel. It was a splendid weapon, castle-forged, and new-made from the look of it. Will doubted it had ever been swung in anger.
(...)
Ser Waymar looked him over with open disapproval. "I am not going back to Castle Black a failure on my first ranging. We will find these men." He glanced around. "Up the tree. Be quick about it. Look for a fire."
(...)
He stayed in the tree, scarce daring to breathe, while the moon crept slowly across the black sky. Finally, his muscles cramping and his fingers numb with cold, he climbed down.
(...)
He found what was left of the sword a few feet away, the end splintered and twisted like a tree struck by lightning. Will knelt, looked around warily, and snatched it up. The broken sword would be his proof. Gared would know what to make of it, and if not him, then surely that old bear Mormont or Maester Aemon. Would Gared still be waiting with the horses? He had to hurry.
And later in Bran I:
"Can't you hear it?"
Bran could hear the wind in the trees, the clatter of their hooves on the ironwood planks, the whimpering of his hungry pup, but Jon was listening to something else.
"There," Jon said. He swung his horse around and galloped back across the bridge. They watched him dismount where the direwolf lay dead in the snow, watched him kneel. A moment later he was riding back to them, smiling.
 
Jon hears direwolf, but Bran hears wind in the trees... Wolves = greenseers. Amd both are moon-snatchers. And this makes sense. Hati and Skoll come from Iron Wood.
"Fallen," Will insisted. "There's one woman up an ironwood, half-hid in the branches. A far-eyes." He smiled thinly. "I took care she never saw me. When I got closer, I saw that she wasn't moving neither." Despite himself, he shivered.
A far-eyes indeed.
And then:
Somewhere off in the wood a wolf howled.
Will pulled his garron over beneath an ancient gnarled ironwood and dismounted.
And later:
There were questions asked and answers given there in the chill of morning, but afterward Bran could not recall much of what had been said. Finally his lord father gave a command, and two of his guardsmen dragged the ragged man to the ironwood stump in the center of the square. They forced his head down onto the hard black wood. Lord Eddard Stark dismounted and his ward Theon Greyjoy brought forth the sword. "Ice," that sword was called. It was as wide across as a man's hand, and taller even than Robb. The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
so they go to the place with ironwood stump... And what they find? Wolves of course. I mean, these clues in first chapters tell us so much.... Nearly everything
 
 
 

 

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3 minutes ago, LmL said:

On my last thread we were discussing all the mudman clay manmyths in regards to brown dragons, meteors landing in the Neck, Quentyn the frog dragon whose hair and personality are mud and who is burned while trying to ride the green dragon.  What does this equate to in terms of representation? We have Others and fiery NW brothers, where are the mudmen? Is that simply the race of mankind?

I think it is supposed to the race of mankind but the representation of fighting for control with the Others and Fiery NW brothers is embodied in the election of the High Sparrow to High Septon. While the Warrior's Sons are supposed to be symbolic of the Others, I think the Poor Fellows are different and separate especially since many of the Sparrows/Begging Brothers became Poor Fellows.  In the sparrows becoming Poor Fellows, we are seeing a type of people energized to take command. 

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10 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

In fact, "aurora borealis" means exactly "dawn of the north" or "pink light of the north", borealis in latin is an adjective for the north, forged after the greek name of a god of the north "Boreas". The origin of this name is actually unknown. 

Aurora just means dawn and has the same root than "east", because the sun come from the east ^^. 

 

(I take time to read all your compendia, I had only read the compendium about lightbringer and the bloodstone Emperor, and I'm with the burning Brandon ^^)

And in Norse Mythology, Aurora was viewed as Valkyries riding across the sky.

http://m.historiavivens.eu/2/the_ride_of_the_valkyries_aurora_borealis_in_norway_1077588.html

 

I've started writing Introduction to Norse Mythology in ASOIAF, but so far I'm stuck in sections:

Introduction to The Amber Compendium

Evidence that GRRM knows Norse Mythology very well.

And what is Norse Myth anyway?

History of Norse Mythology and basic terms.

Examples of nods to Norse Mythology in ASOIAF.

I want this essay to be kind of  Norse Myth 101, to set up the basics before moving to deeper stuff. But well... This whole thing is harder than I thought.

Btw, first time sea is mentioned in ASOIAF, it's sea of milk. But I don't think it means anything.

Quote

"It was the cold," Gared said with iron certainty. "I saw men freeze last winter, and the one before, when I was half a boy. Everyone talks about snows forty foot deep, and how the ice wind comes howling out of the north, but the real enemy is the cold. It steals up on you quieter than Will, and at first you shiver and your teeth chatter and you stamp your feet and dream of mulled wine and nice hot fires. It burns, it does. Nothing burns like the cold. But only for a while. Then it gets inside you and starts to fill you up, and after a while you don't have the strength to fight it. It's easier just to sit down or go to sleep. They say you don't feel any pain toward the end. First you go weak and drowsy, and everything starts to fade, and then it's like sinking into a sea of warm milk. Peaceful, like."

This stuff about cold burning people... @ravenous reader , so you you say that fire is essential to all forms of magic? But if cold = fire... Ahh.... Nevermind. I've had enough vague symbolism for one evening.

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8 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

And in Norse Mythology, Aurora was viewed as Valkyries riding across the sky.

http://m.historiavivens.eu/2/the_ride_of_the_valkyries_aurora_borealis_in_norway_1077588.html

 

I've started writing Introduction to Norse Mythology in ASOIAF, but so far I'm stuck in sections:

Introduction to The Amber Compendium

Evidence that GRRM knows Norse Mythology very well.

And what is Norse Myth anyway?

History of Norse Mythology and basic terms.

Examples of nods to Norse Mythology in ASOIAF.

I want this essay to be kind of  Norse Myth 101, to set up the basics before moving to deeper stuff. But well... This whole thing is harder than I thought.

 

 

That's why I like to explain the bkg mtyh as i go, as opposed to starting my essay with 20 minutes about Mithras. You can do what you want, but I recommend doling out the explanations mixed in with the ASOIAF material, or people will lose interest. If you are trying to write such an into and its running long, that is all the more reason to take my advice. 

In regards to the prologue, that's another one I have been saving. I agree, the entire "the Others come from the trees" can be deduced from the prologue. It ends with great mythical astronomy. Yes, it's all there. I got to run or I would say more, but we are on the same page with that no doubt. 

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3 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

And in Norse Mythology, Aurora was viewed as Valkyries riding across the sky.

http://m.historiavivens.eu/2/the_ride_of_the_valkyries_aurora_borealis_in_norway_1077588.html

 

Yes, as the goddess Aurora (Eôs in greek) is the sister of the sun Helios and precedes him on her own chariot (in greek myhtology, she is also the mother of Boreas)

But, "aurora borealis" as "pink light of the north" doesn't contradict this :

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North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. (AGOT, Bran III)

 Litteraly, the "curtain of light" in the north is an "aurora borealis" ^^

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1 minute ago, LmL said:

That's why I like to explain the bkg mtyh as i go, as opposed to starting my essay with 20 minutes about Mithras. You can do what you want, but I recommend doling out the explanations mixed in with the ASOIAF material, or people will lose interest. If you are trying to write such an into and its running long, that is all the more reason to take my advice. 

That's why I started with that Yggdrasil stuff - it's easy and most people accept that weirwoods are connected to it.

But I felt that some kind of introduction is needed. To explain some things like what exactely is Norse Mythology, to explain my views on theories that simply conclude ASOIAF = Ragnarok, to explain some terms like Valhalla, kenning, edda, saga, Yggdrasil, Asgard, warg, daugr, Ragnarok etc. Things like that.

Hmmm... I think it's just my passion for history shared by so few that got the better of me and halted progress. But still I think that at least basic understanding of Scandinavian history is needed. 

 Your idea is very good - maybe I'll just show and mention ASOIAF related things every section - like weirwoods when talking about Yggdrasil, House Kennig of Kayce, Hel, Wargs and greenseers, Cersei and Sif, Ironborn and their similarities and differences to/from Vikings etc.

I wanted to keep it below 10 000 words... But now it seems impossible. More like 30 000... But I'll search for a way to make it shorter and more interesting.

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2 hours ago, LmL said:

I had noticed Pennytree being in between the teats a long time ago, and I figured out that two moons = two teats a long time ago as well, but I could not figure out what was the symbolism of the pennytree that ties to weirwoods and LB. I think we've got that now, thanks to PKJ and others with the copper ideas, plus the idea of copper stars. And then you think of the 3EC pecking in between Bran's eyes like an axe, and tree peopel wildlings planting an axe between Samwell's eyes, and we can see LB is indeed planted in the earth somehow. 

I pointed out this quote of Brienne in aFfC

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There were pine and linden shields to be had for pennies, but Brienne rode past them. She meant to keep the heavy oaken shield Jaime had given her, the one he'd borne himself from Harrenhal to King's Landing. A pine shield had its advantages. It was lighter, and therefore easier to bear, and the soft wood was more like to trap a foeman's axe or sword. But oak gave more protection, if you were strong enough to bear its weight.

We have seen that pines are sentinel trees and @hiemal pointed out that penny tree was a cent-tree (sentry). And there are several examples of the pines being covered with snow and I would take that to mean weirwoods. 

I have never heard of linden. So I looked it up it is described thusly:

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a deciduous tree with heart-shaped leaves and fragrant yellowish blossoms, native to north temperate regions. The pale soft timber is used for carving and furniture.

So linden trees are like Pines that can be craved up and have hearts for leaves. 

Brienne goes on to say that a pine shield is a trap for an ax or a sword which is another association that the weirwoods are traps like you and @ravenous reader pointed out. But according to Brienne, oak gives more protection if you are strong enough which I think in the context of Pennytree being an oak should be amended to 'you'll be struck by lightning but you'll only come out of it a little charred'.  In the context of broken, lightning struck symbolism, I would say it is juxtaposing Syrio's lesson on the difference between Westerosi Iron dancing vs Braavosi Water dancing. And wouldn't you know it that on one side of Pennytree is a blacksmith and on the other is a duck pond. 

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2 hours ago, LmL said:
7 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

ha ha ha...This is what makes you so lovable, dear dragon, and keeps me forgiving you time and again when you huff and puff and threaten to blow my nennymansion to the ground / sea bed-- your honesty and willingness to admit when you don't understand something and/or suspect the emperor may be wearing no clothes in the swamp too swampy for common decency!

If it makes you feel any better -- I often feel dizzy when PK starts swinging gargoyle-to-gargoyle: it's like a million-billion haikus being fused fast-forward into one brilliant hydrogen bomb!

Well that's the idea, to express my frustration in a way that isn't directed at people. I can't help the way I am. I sometimes get overwhelmed by too many ideas flying around at once. But I want to be clear to say that just because I am not getting it doesn't mean it's wrong. Then I would be a jerk. And yeah, keeping up with PKJ is like trying to follow a Mentat's in real time

You should see how I think about the scientific parts of these allusions. Starting with the Serpentine Steps alluding to DNA.

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Targaryen loyalists were still dying on the serpentine steps and in the armory, Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch were scaling the walls of Maegor's Holdfast, and Ned Stark was leading his northmen through the King's Gate even then, but Crakehall could not have known that. He had not seemed surprised to find Aerys slain; Jaime had been Lord Tywin's son long before he had been named to the Kingsguard.

 

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19 hours ago, LmL said:

This is really good, and we also have the red grass in that song about the last of Derry's ten, where the red sword is thirsty still.  Bloody grass and bloody glass may be the same thing. Blood frozen red and hard, daggers in the dark. Ice, she sees. That's black ice, a dagger in the dark, a sword of frozen waves of moon blood. The sort of sword for a man like Beric born in a grove of Ash on some bloody grass, after being hanged and having his eye put out. 

Love the broken sword part of the Dondarrion backstory, I had forgotten about that. Such a sweet combination... he's fighting for the Storm King, so that's like AA possessing the fire of the Storm God's thunderbolt along with a broken sword. I know LB is the broken sword... but how and when? Was it reforged, or used broken? "A broken sword can be reforged, a broken sword can still kill."

Penny Jenny / redgrass Jenny sounds like a weirwood fire woman, for sure. She gives birth to Fireball, of course. That's a lark. Love it. The rest of your Dondarrion etymology seems a bit reaching to me, that's the kind of thing I have trouble with. Call me skeptical or whatever, but it just seems to tenuous a connection. But then I don't know Dorian Gray or Don Quixote, so maybe that's why I am not seeing it. Don't worry about it though, we don't need to go round and round until I agree with everything. We have too much to talk about on this thread already, egads! Sometimes you are like one of the Mentats from Dune PKJ, it's hard to keep up! 

Hey so I was thinking about Penny Jenny and symbolically I think she is an inverse echo of Tyrion's wife Tysha. Penny Jenny had Fireball first and then the hundred men at the red grass field. While yes you can consider Tyrion to be first with Tysha, she was forced to sleep with the guards, receiving silver stags and then made to sleep with Tyrion and got a gold dragon. 

Now in hand and hand with this Penny Jenny and Tysha, Tyrion's wife connection, I realized I forgot to add a piece to the association of Mel with her 'lot in life' with the Melony Lot 7, and coins, luck and gambling.

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Now to go back to the luck, lot, gambling. Mel is a red headed person that was Melony Lot Seven, since we assume that this was a slave auction, this groups her into the sacrificed girls category. Edit: Mel was sold to the temple. The act of becoming a temple priestess is called being married to the god of that temple in many cases. In our real world, nuns are referred to as Brides of Christ and in universe the Silent Sisters are called the Stranger's wives, Fireball's wife was sent to the Silent Sisters in preparation for his position in the Kingsguard. This is usually by choice- we do exceptions like my example of Fireball, which the exception is more typical of several mythologies and fairy tales that are abound with woman being forcibly married to gods. Cupid and Psyche are prime examples of this. The part that gets left out is that at times, being married to a god goes hand in hand with being sacrificed to that god. "Moon is woman wife of Sun, it is known." Nissa Nissa giving her life to birth a sword for her Lord Husband.

 

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30 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Yeah -- way ahead of me in terms of arrogance, for sure.

Oooh, testy this morning I see! Where's your sense of humor gone too? I feel like it's a bit unfair to edit my quote like that, here's what I actually said:

19 hours ago, LmL said:
19 hours ago, LmL said:
On 2/23/2017 at 8:31 AM, ravenous reader said:

Good catch by you and PK on the pennytree/startree symbolism (how long have I been telling you like Carl Sagan that the weirwood is a startree..?!)  

Certainly not before I realized that's what it was myself, which is something I figured loooong before I met you buddy. Let's not play up this "RR leads LML to water" narrative overmuch, ha ha ha.The only thing I ever resisted from you was the Nennymoan thing. I took to the green see right away, and yeah, I am way ahead of you on the star tree thing. Nice try. :devil:

I was playfully pointing out that the star-tree was an idea I had a long time before I had the privilege of meeting you. That's fair to point out, because it is true. I do not hesitate to heap praise on you for your many brilliant discoveries - I probably thank you more than any other person of late. What's with the pissy response? 
Did you have nothing to say about all the other comments I left for you? Did you not appreciate the very next paragraph, where I said:

20 hours ago, LmL said:

Did you just make a more poetic version of the AA myth? I like it! Figures, coming from you, poetess!

Not sure why our typical banter riled you up this morning - did you take my daily irascible pill when I wasn't looking? ;)

I really would be interested to hear your thoughts on the icy tree sword quotes I left for you, and how we should try to sort out the whole tree-sword / star-sword dichotomy surrounding Dawn and AA's sword. 

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19 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:
19 hours ago, LmL said:

On my last thread we were discussing all the mudman clay manmyths in regards to brown dragons, meteors landing in the Neck, Quentyn the frog dragon whose hair and personality are mud and who is burned while trying to ride the green dragon.  What does this equate to in terms of representation? We have Others and fiery NW brothers, where are the mudmen? Is that simply the race of mankind?

I think it is supposed to the race of mankind but the representation of fighting for control with the Others and Fiery NW brothers is embodied in the election of the High Sparrow to High Septon. While the Warrior's Sons are supposed to be symbolic of the Others, I think the Poor Fellows are different and separate especially since many of the Sparrows/Begging Brothers became Poor Fellows.  In the sparrows becoming Poor Fellows, we are seeing a type of people energized to take command. 

This is what I mean about a third split in the branch. 

Quote

 "Did Ser Quentyn die upon the Redgrass Field?"

"Before, ser," Egg replied. "An archer put an arrow through his throat as he dismounted by a stream to have a drink. Just some common man, no one knows who."

"Those common men can be dangerous when they get it in their heads to start slaying lords and heroes.

- The Mystery Knight

Sparrows are often considered symbolic of something common and mundane. And we have the persona of this in Anguy, the archer and member of the Brotherhood without Banners. His name is literally 'A Guy'.

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48 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

This is what I mean about a third split in the branch. 

Sparrows are often considered symbolic of something common and mundane. And we have the persona of this in Anguy, the archer and member of the Brotherhood without Banners. His name is literally 'A Guy'.

What I am wondering is whether this hypothetical offspring of meteors and mud should be thought of as 'men,' or earth-assocated being, or as water associated beings like crannogmen and squishers. Honestly I am not too sure this is similar to what we are talking about with the bifurcation of ice and fire. That has to do with splitting elements of the weirwood, I am thinking, as both the fiery sorcerers and Others seem to come from trees. The Others are also tied to lightning.  But these mud-man scenes seem to involve meteors sticking their lightbringer into the mud, with no tree involved. 

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19 hours ago, LmL said:
On 2/23/2017 at 2:38 AM, Pain killer Jane said:

Edit: 

So I ran across another one of my associations with pennies. 

Quote

"Ser Glendon has hero's blood," Dunk blurted out.

"Oh, I do hope so. Hero's blood should be good for two to one. Whore's blood draws poorer odds. Ser Glendon speaks about his purported sire at every opportunity, but have you noticed that he never makes mention of his mother? For good reason. He was born of a camp follower. Jenny, her name was. Penny Jenny, they called her, until the Redgrass Field. The night before the battle, she fucked so many men that thereafter she was known as Redgrass Jenny. Fireball had her before that, I don't doubt, but so did a hundred other men. Our friend Glendon presumes quite a lot, it seems to me. He does not even have red hair." Hero's blood, thought Dunk. "He says he is a knight."

"Oh, that much is true. The boy and his sister grew up in a brothel, called the Pussywillows. After Penny Jenny died, the other whores took care of them and fed the lad the tale his mother had concocted, about him being Fireball's seed. An old squire who lived nearby gave the boy his training, such that it was, in trade for ale and cunt, but being but a squire he could not knight the little bastard. Half a year ago, however, a party of knights chanced upon the brothel and a certain Ser Morgan Dunstable took a drunken fancy to Ser Glendon's sister. As it happens, the sister was still a virgin and Dunstable did not have the price of her maidenhead. So a bargain was struck. Ser Morgan clubbed her brother a knight, right there in the Pussywillows in front of twenty witnesses, and afterwards little sister took him upstairs and let him pluck her flower. 

-

Ser Glendon born from Penny Jenny from the seed of Ser Quentyn "Fireball" Ball. Hero's blood here should be interpreted as Kingsblood and Holy Blood. The qualification of whore's blood drawing poorer odds, speaks of the offering of a sacrifice in order to get favorable luck. 

Her name changing to Redgrass Jenny in association with sacrifice can then be interpreted as grass watered with blood. So now that we have that image in our heads take a look at this quote by Berric 

Quote

"Can I dwell on what I scarce remember? I held a castle on the Marches once, and there was a woman I was pledged to marry, but I could not find that castle today, nor tell you the color of that woman's hair. Who knighted me, old friend? What were my favorite foods? It all fades. Sometimes I think I was born on the bloody grass in that grove of ash, with the taste of fire in my mouth and a hole in my chest. Are you my mother, Thoros?"

-aSoS, Arya VII

 

This is really good, and we also have the red grass in that song about the last of Derry's ten, where the red sword is thirsty still.  Bloody grass and bloody glass may be the same thing. Blood frozen red and hard, daggers in the dark. Ice, she sees. That's black ice, a dagger in the dark, a sword of frozen waves of moon blood. The sort of sword for a man like Beric born in a grove of Ash on some bloody grass, after being hanged and having his eye put out. 

Love the broken sword part of the Dondarrion backstory, I had forgotten about that. Such a sweet combination... he's fighting for the Storm King, so that's like AA possessing the fire of the Storm God's thunderbolt along with a broken sword. I know LB is the broken sword... but how and when? Was it reforged, or used broken? "A broken sword can be reforged, a broken sword can still kill."

Penny Jenny / redgrass Jenny sounds like a weirwood fire woman, for sure. She gives birth to Fireball, of course. That's a lark. Love it. The rest of your Dondarrion etymology seems a bit reaching to me, that's the kind of thing I have trouble with. Call me skeptical or whatever, but it just seems to tenuous a connection. But then I don't know Dorian Gray or Don Quixote, so maybe that's why I am not seeing it. Don't worry about it though, we don't need to go round and round until I agree with everything. We have too much to talk about on this thread already, egads! Sometimes you are like one of the Mentats from Dune PKJ, it's hard to keep up! 

And this scene with Penny Jenny, Ser Glendon Flowers, Fireball as mentioned can be connected to Tyrion's wife Tysha. The connection while at best is connected superficial is more deeply connected via a third scene. 

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Arya ran up her well-scrubbed steps. No one paid her any mind when she entered. Chiswyck was seated by the fire with a horn of ale to hand, telling one of his funny stories. She dared not interrupt, unless she wanted a bloody lip.

"After the Hand's tourney, it were, before the war come," Chiswyck was saying. "We were on our ways back west, seven of us with Ser Gregor. Raff was with me, and young Joss Stilwood, he'd squired for Ser in the lists. Well, we come on this pisswater river, running high on account there'd been rains. No way to ford, but there's an alehouse near, so there we repair. [a party of knights chanced upon the brothel] Ser rousts the brewer and tells him to keep our horns full till the waters fall, and you should see the man's pig eyes shine at the sight o' silver. So he's fetching us ale, him and his daughter, and poor thin stuff it is, no more'n brown piss, which don't make me any happier, nor Ser neither. And all the time this brewer's saying how glad he is to have us, custom being slow on account o' them rains. The fool won't shut his yap, not him, though Ser is saying not a word, just brooding on the Knight o' Pansies ["Ser Glendon has hero's blood,"......the little bastard. Ser Glendon was known by three names, Ser Glendon Flowers because he was a bastard, he referred to himself Ser Glendon Ball and was jokingly called Knight of the Pussywillows ]and that bugger's trick he played. You can see how tight his mouth sits, so me and the other lads we know better'n to say a squeak to him, but this brewer he's got to talk, he even asks how m'lord fared in the jousting. Ser just gave him this look." Chiswyck cackled, quaffed his ale, and wiped the foam away with the back of his hand. "Meanwhile, this daughter of his has been fetching and pouring, a fat little thing, eighteen or so—"

"Thirteen [the hero number in this context is very sinister, which correlates since Ser Glendon has hero's blood and Penny Jenny was a whore] , more like," Raff the Sweetling drawled.

"Well, be that as it may, she's not much to look at, but Eggon's [this is a reference to Aegon V] been drinking and gets to touching her, and might be I did a little touching meself, and Raff's telling young Stilwood that he ought t' drag the girl upstairs and make hisself a man, giving the lad courage as it were. Finally Joss reaches up under her skirt, and she shrieks and drops her flagon and goes running off to the kitchen. Well, it would have ended right there, only what does the old fool do but he goes to Ser and asks him to make us leave the girl alone, him being an anointed knight and all such.

"Ser Gregor, he wasn't paying no mind to none of our fun, but now he looks, you know how he does, and he commands that the girl be brought before him. Now the old man has to drag her out of the kitchen, and no one to blame but hisself. Ser looks her over and says, 'So this is the whore you're so concerned for,' and this besotted old fool says, 'My Layna's no whore, ser,' right to Gregor's face. Ser, he never blinks, just says, 'She is now,' tosses the old man another silver, rips the dress off the wench, and takes her right there on the table in front of her da, her flopping and wiggling like a rabbit and making these noises. [afterwards little sister took him upstairs and let him pluck her flower....... The night before the battle, she fucked so many men that thereafter she was known as Redgrass Jenny...........Lord Tywin brought my wife in and gave her to his guards. They paid her fair enough. A silver for each man, how many whores command that high a price? He sat me down in the corner of the barracks and bade me watch, and at the end she had so many silvers the coins were slipping through her fingers and rolling on the floor,.....]

The look on the old man's face, I laughed so hard ale was coming out me nose.Then this boy hears the noise, the son I figure, and comes rushing up from the cellar, so Raff has to stick a dirk in his belly. [Your man Timett slew a wineseller's son this evening, at a gambling den on the Street of Silver.]

By then Ser's done, so he goes back to his drinking and we all have a turn. Tobbot, you know how he is, he flops her over and goes in the back way. The girl was done fighting by the time I had her, maybe she'd decided she liked it after all, though to tell the truth I wouldn't have minded a little wiggling. And now here's the best bit . . . when it's all done, Ser tells the old man that he wants his change. The girl wasn't worth a silver, he says . . . and damned if that old man didn't fetch a fistful of coppers, beg m'lord's pardon, and thank him for the custom!"

-Arya VII, aCoK 

Now to continue on my theme of coppers, pennies and wishing wells. 

We have these two connected scenes. Which also connects to the scene above with the brutal rape of the brewer's daughter and the brutal rape of Tysha which the two are connected via Penny Jenny/Redgrass Jenny.

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In the city, the only things to run down were rats and cats and scrawny dogs. The pot-shops would give you a fistful of coppers for a litter of pups, she'd heard, but she didn't like to think about that.

-Arya V, aGoT

And we know that a pot shop disappeared the body of Symon Silver-tongue which adds the cannibalism overtones of the Dolorous Edd's comment about boiled eggs and drinking wine flavored with the dead of body of a brother. And up in the scene above, Raff kills the brewer's son just like Timett killed the wineseller's son. 

The next scene that is connect takes the image of the pups bought by a fistful of coppers and links them with throwing them like eggs down the well.

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When the westermen came through they raped the Huntsman's wife and sister, put his crops to the torch, ate half his sheep, and killed the other half for spite. Killed six dogs too, and threw the carcasses down his well

-Arya V, aSoS

And like I mentioned in Pateron, the deliberate lack of a comma in describing wife and sister can be that she was the wife and the sister of the Mad Huntsman. And then the six dogs are thrown down the well like a falling star into the sea, these dogs would be dogstars. 

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1 hour ago, Pain killer Jane said:

This is what I mean about a third split in the branch. 

Sparrows are often considered symbolic of something common and mundane. And we have the persona of this in Anguy, the archer and member of the Brotherhood without Banners. His name is literally 'A Guy'.

And perhaps also a reference to Guy Fawkes, someone else who had taken a notion to try and kill a bunch of Lords.

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21 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

And perhaps also a reference to Guy Fawkes, someone else who had taken a notion to try and kill a bunch of Lords.

Oh, I bet that it is that indeed. Great catch!

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