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A Burning Brandon (Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire)


LmL

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33 minutes ago, LmL said:

Now, slightly different topic. I was just listening to the tale of craster and how he "flew down from the wall and stole a woman out of Whitetree village." That would be a black crow figure, going into the weirwood net, and stealing or impregnating a woman... and then leaving, seemingly returning to the ice Moon in some sense. This child turns out to be the Night's King, which is seemingly what craster represents. 

Stealing a woman out of the weirwood net? Or is this just an act of impregnating the weirwood net, the same pattern we've seen where the sun slips his dragon scene inside the weirwood, eventually producing a reborn Sun figure who is now dark, bearing a heavy curse as it were. 

Thoughts? 

It could be both all three honestly. She could have been stolen out of the weirwood net, impregnated and then sacrificed for her power. That would be a triple goddess, maiden, mother and then crone (the crone part especially if Lady Stoneheart is meant to represent that aspect of the crone). 

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33 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

It could be both all three honestly. She could have been stolen out of the weirwood net, impregnated and then sacrificed for her power. That would be a triple goddess, maiden, mother and then crone (the crone part especially if Lady Stoneheart is meant to represent that aspect of the crone). 

Lady Cat might have the best weirwood symbolism of any of the fiery moon maidens, I am finding. She has the Cat's paw scene, the Red Wedding, and her 2 appearances as Stoneheart, and they are all fabulous examples of NN becoming a weirwood or being a weirwood who has her face carved. The "stone heart" idea is also alludes to a meteor seed for the tree (pssst @ravenous reader). Obviously the drowned woman scene where she sees herself in Renly's armor - as a stag, ha ha - alludes to drowning in the see, which brings in all the mermaid goddess stuff. The way I am doing this on the podcast is that I am showing the whole Yggdrasil thing and the NN = weirwood thing and the link between the column of ash and the ash tree... and THEN I will unveil RR's sea / see pun, and be bale to quickly fly back through with the mermaid and drowning ideas reimagined, and this will essentially corroborate everything we have established before, but with a totally different line of symbolism (aquatic / see symbolism). So for example, I will end up showing all of the greenseer symbolism Dany has aside from the sea / see thing (which is quite extensive with her in the green Dothraki Sea and the Jade Sea and wearing green dresses while she begs for boats from people in wooden chairs... but I digress), and THEN busting out the see / sea and going back through the very same scenes and showing a whole new and parallel line of symbolism. This way, we don't overwhelm people with everything at once, and the see / sea thing will be instantly accepted because we will have paved the way for all the conclusions it generates. 

If I may say a word on my general strategy for the podcast... I'd like to say that on some topics, I have my own ideas developed pretty extensively, but on many others, I often feel like I am acting as a mouthpiece for the collaboration that goes on here and the deep analysis on the forums in general, trying to sort it out into an orderly fashion and present it in a way which is accessible to as many people as possible. My priority is always to represent the source material as best I can, so I will not hesitate to incorporate other people's ideas when they are appropriate and necessary for understanding. RR's see / sea thing is a great example - it's simply to indispensable to step around, and once someone gives me a good idea like that, I will inevitably start running into it everywhere, as much as I am always rereading the text. @Unchained just popped up into the forums and whipped out the smoky sleipnir in Drogo's pyre and many other amazing new insights on a topic (alchemical weddings) that I had thought about extensively already but had not noticed. There are many other smaller yet important ideas (the see / sea thing is one of the biggest breakthroughs anyone's ever had, imo, so almost everything is 'smaller,' but still important of course) which people have contributed to the podcast, and again I have chosen not to hesitate to use them and give out lots of hat tips. We've formed this ASOIAF think tank like entity, and it's just so much fun to be a part of. I hope I am doing an adequate job at representing people's ideas; I feel like there is sooooo much enjoyment to be had from ASOIAF by doing this deep analysis that everyone on the forums does, but most people simply either don't have the time or don't really know ASOIAF goes this deep. That's really become the mission of the podcast, to let people know shit goes mad deep. That's far more important that trying to get everything right or having personal glory (despite the altar I've just learned I stand in front of... can someone tell me, is it made of oily black stone by chance? =P ).  I know I speak for everyone here when I say that this shit is just so exciting to try to figure out, and sometimes even deeply meaningful in a personal way, because these mythical concepts are the oldest ideas of humanity, and are by their nature powerful and transformative.  Most people who watch or even read ASOIAF just don't even know that there are these other layers to the story, and it just feels like a natural thing to synthesize everything and try to present it to people. Again, I hope I am doing a good job at this. It's also been fun to branch out from my original astronomy based symbolism with the help of those of you who know more about various mythologies than I. 

When it comes to things as exciting as all this weirwoodnet stuff we've been collectively working and the under the see ideas... I mean I am just super excited to present this stuff to everyone, I cannot write and get these episodes out fast enough. I just love how mind-bendingly psychedelic this stuff gets under the see... anyway I just wanted to say thanks to everyone and that I am more inspired by everyone than ever.  So many of you have extensive knowledge of things I do not, and to be able to throw out a pattern or symbol that I notice and then be treated to something like @Pain killer Jane's insight on the Pennytree, and then to watch @Blue Tiger and RR and everyone else run with it... I mean I was just looking at the thing and knowing it had something to do with Dunk's tree and meteor symbol, but I could not for the life of me figure out what it meant.  Now it turns out to be super important, as it always seemed to be, only more so! This shit is just awesome, I love you all, that's all I wanted to say. Cheers everyone.  

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On 3/16/2017 at 3:46 PM, LmL said:

@Pain killer Jane's insight on the Pennytree

Found an interesting article on the superstitions attending the nailing of coins/nails into (or tying of rags on) trees, which might link 'pennytree' to 'penitentiary' (or penny-tentia-tree...?), :P in line with our recent discussions regarding the weirwood as prison for some 'fell' presence (life sentence without parole):

From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1988790/

'Rituals, ceremonies and customs related to sacred trees with a special reference to the Middle East'

Amots Dafni

J Ethnobiol Ethnomed. 2007; 3: 28.

Quote

Hammering nails into sacred trees

Hammering nails as well as hanging clothes are "tying" rituals, whereby the person seeks healing or a solution to problems by transferring his or her illness or problems to the tree, or to whatever object the clothes are hung on or nails hammered into. Such "tying" is one of the best known and commonest beliefs practised throughout the world among Christians, as well as among Muslims and their predecessors in the Middle East [[88]:213; [89]:262; [21]]. Hartland [[84]:459–460] has already identified the common background of hanging rags and putting nails on sacred trees as "generally the attainment of some wish, or granting of some prayer, as for the husband, or for recovery from sickness".

In several countries nails are hammered to a sacred tree to transfer the pain or illness into the tree [England and Germany [90]:493; Kurdistan, [88]:216; Europe, [84]:58; and Turkey [89]: 176,262; [91]:128].

In India the emetic nut tree (Strychnos nuxvomica) is considered the prison of all demons. Occasionally such trees can be seen with trunks full of nails as a precaution against demons. If a demon or bad spirit dares to attack a human, the exorcist forces it back into the tree with a nail. With each nail driven in the demon declares that it will not attack again. Nailing the demon into the tree trunk is the best way to give it a life sentence [[92]:97; [93]:183]. Sacred trees in the West Himalayan region are the object of a similar custom: travelers hammer nails into the trunk when passing by as a protective step against diseases, death, and any damage to their sheep, cattle, or crops. The explanation for this act, according to traditional belief, is that it dispels evil powers [[94]: xxi].

In Egypt, nails driven into tree trunks signify the prayers of the believers. People come to sheikhs' trees to be cured of headaches or other ailments. In asking the sheikh for help, they hammer nails into the trunk and wind some of their hair around the nails [[95]:56]. A ceremony of this kind was recorded at sacred graves in Turkey [[89]:80]. Some are of the opinion that this was a gypsy tradition introduced from India [[96]:147]. Our informants (8) mentioned that nail hammering is done against the evil eye as "A nail in the eye of Satan" (4).

A square in central Vienna is named Stock am Eisen, which means literally "iron on the stick". A glass case stands on one of the corners of the square containing a replica of a piece of wood into which some nails have been driven. A known tradition from the 16th century relates that any apprentice who completed his duties in the town would hammer a nail into a tree that grew in the square for good luck [[97]:21; [98]:99].

Some authors mentioned that nail hammering is done just to fix clothes/rags [Europe, [84]:453,454; Scotland; [99]:75; Yemen, [87]:213–214] or money to the tree [[98]: 75].

Leaving stones on/under the tree

Stones are put in certain places when people died as a token of honour to the deceased [Ireland, [100]:43; Morocco, [18]: II: 549; [101]:212, Israel (Bedouins: Negev) [102]:76], this custom is very common today in Europe as well as Israel (personal observation].

In the Muslim world it is common to put a stone on or under sacred tree "when a woman yearns for a child, when a peasant longs for rain, or when he yearns for the restoration to health or his horse or camel" [[88]:211]. According to Westermarck [[18]:1: 75–76] cairns are placed under sacred trees for curing just as they put rags or threads. Canaan [[19]: 75] mentioned that stones are placed in heaps at saints' shrines to show piety and as a visiting card. In India believers put stones under a sacred tree as part of a worship of a local deity that dwells in the tree [[103]:19] and in Korea as an offering [[60]:44]. Not one of our informants was able to explain why stones are left on or near sacred trees although stones on sacred trees are quite common (Table (Table22).

Leaving money on/under the tree

In Israel, people used to leave money under the tree as well as in saints' graves (5 informants, Leaving money in graves is a very common custom in the Muslim world [[18]: II: 502; [104]:159] as charity for the needy (6). Money is left on trees when a wish is made as an offering to the supernatural being to ensure the fulfillment of the personal request and for wishes and good luck [Scotland, [98]:75,76; Ireland, [105]:195; Europe in general [84]:passim; [106]:322].

 

On 3/16/2017 at 3:46 PM, LmL said:

I love you all, that's all I wanted to say. Cheers everyone.

:wub:

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1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Found an interesting article on the superstitions attending the nailing of coins/nails into (or tying of rags on) trees, which might link 'pennytree' to 'penitentiary' (or penny-tentia-tree...?), :P in line with our recent discussions regarding the weirwood as prison for some 'fell' presence (life sentence without parole):

From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1988790/

'Rituals, ceremonies and customs related to sacred trees with a special reference to the Middle East'

Amots Dafni

J Ethnobiol Ethnomed. 2007; 3: 28.

 

:wub:

There was a tree at a place I used to live, and if you met your spouse there you were supposed to nail your shoes to it for good luck.  I did meet my wife there, but after looking at it, neither of us wanted anything to do with it.  Turns out driving hundreds or thousands of nails into a tree is kinda bad for it.  It was dead and black with a pile of rotten shoes on and around it.  I could definitely see that thing having a demon in it.

 

There is a popular belief that driving copper nails into trees and carving strips into them is an effective way to kill them.  Someone carved faces into them and the First Men are strongly associated with Bronze, more evidence they are 'wight trees' and 'ghosts'.  

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9 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Found an interesting article on the superstitions attending the nailing of coins/nails into (or tying of rags on) trees, which might link 'pennytree' to 'penitentiary' (or penny-tentia-tree...?), :P in line with our recent discussions regarding the weirwood as prison for some 'fell' presence (life sentence without parole):

From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1988790/

'Rituals, ceremonies and customs related to sacred trees with a special reference to the Middle East'

Amots Dafni

J Ethnobiol Ethnomed. 2007; 3: 28.

 

:wub:

And keep in mind that those coins have faces of kings on them... And who's the most famous king nailed to a tree? Jesus Christ, and scholars often point out that symbolically this act merged them into one, with blood running down the wood. And what happens right after that? The earth darkens, Temple's courtain splits in two, earthquakes crack open the ground, rocks shake and shatter... And the dead rise... And after three hours Jesus dies and is pierced by spear, which was later called The Spear of Destiny or Holy Lance...

We see similar story in ASOIAF, at least if we agree with @LmL's  theory...

Bloodstone Emperor (and according to legends this stone was created when drops of Christ's blood fell on Mt Calvary's rocks)... Azor Ahai... The Grey King... But their (or his, should it turn put they're the same guy) versions of the story are reversed and twisted... They're not saving the world, they just want power and wisdom for themselves...

Spoiler

 

Jesus Delivered to Pilate

27 When morning came, all the chief priests and the elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death. And they bound him and led him away and delivered him over to Pilate the governor.

Judas Hangs Himself

Then when Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus[a] was condemned, he changed his mind and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.” And throwing down the pieces of silver into the temple, he departed, and he went and hanged himself. But the chief priests, taking the pieces of silver, said, “It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, since it is blood money.” So they took counsel and bought with them the potter's field as a burial place for strangers. Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day. Then was fulfilled what had been spoken by the prophet Jeremiah, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel, 10 and they gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord directed me.”

Jesus Before Pilate

11 Now Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, “Are you the King of the Jews?” Jesus said, “You have said so.” 12 But when he was accused by the chief priests and elders, he gave no answer.13 Then Pilate said to him, “Do you not hear how many things they testify against you?” 14 But he gave him no answer, not even to a single charge, so that the governor was greatly amazed.

The Crowd Chooses Barabbas

15 Now at the feast the governor was accustomed to release for the crowd any one prisoner whom they wanted. 16 And they had then a notorious prisoner called Barabbas. 17 So when they had gathered, Pilate said to them, “Whom do you want me to release for you: Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?” 18 For he knew that it was out of envy that they had delivered him up. 19 Besides, while he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent word to him, “Have nothing to do with that righteous man, for I have suffered much because of him today in a dream.” 20 Now the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus. 21 The governor again said to them, “Which of the two do you want me to release for you?” And they said, “Barabbas.” 22 Pilate said to them, “Then what shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?” They all said, “Let him be crucified!” 23 And he said, “Why? What evil has he done?” But they shouted all the more, “Let him be crucified!”

Pilate Delivers Jesus to Be Crucified

24 So when Pilate saw that he was gaining nothing, but rather that a riot was beginning, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, “I am innocent of this man's blood;[b] see to it yourselves.”25 And all the people answered, “His blood be on us and on our children!”26 Then he released for them Barabbas, and having scourged[c] Jesus, delivered him to be crucified.

Jesus Is Mocked

27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the governor's headquarters,[d] and they gathered the whole battalion[e] before him.28 And they stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, 29 and twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on his head and put a reed in his right hand. And kneeling before him, they mocked him, saying, “Hail, King of the Jews!” 30 And they spit on him and took the reed and struck him on the head. 31 And when they had mocked him, they stripped him of the robe and put his own clothes on him and led him away to crucify him.

The Crucifixion

32 As they went out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name. They compelled this man to carry his cross. 33 And when they came to a place called Golgotha (which means Place of a Skull), 34 they offered him wine to drink, mixed with gall, but when he tasted it, he would not drink it.35 And when they had crucified him, they divided his garments among them by casting lots. 36 Then they sat down and kept watch over him there. 37 And over his head they put the charge against him, which read, “This is Jesus, the King of the Jews.” 38 Then two robbers were crucified with him, one on the right and one on the left. 39 And those who passed by derided him, wagging their heads 40 and saying, “You who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross.” 41 So also the chief priests, with the scribes and elders, mocked him, saying, 42 “He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him. For he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”44 And the robbers who were crucified with him also reviled him in the same way.

The Death of Jesus

45 Now from the sixth hour[f] there was darkness over all the land[g] until the ninth hour.[h] 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” 47 And some of the bystanders, hearing it, said, “This man is calling Elijah.” 48 And one of them at once ran and took a sponge, filled it with sour wine, and put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink. 49 But the others said, “Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him.” 50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.

51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 54 When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, “Truly this was the Son[i] of God!”

55 There were also many women there, looking on from a distance, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him, 56 among whom were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.

Jesus Is Buried

57 When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who also was a disciple of Jesus. 58 He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate ordered it to be given to him. 59 And Joseph took the body and wrapped it in a clean linen shroud 60 and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had cut in the rock. And he rolled a great stone to the entrance of the tomb and went away. 61 Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were there, sitting opposite the tomb.

The Guard at the Tomb

62 The next day, that is, after the day of Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered before Pilate 63 and said, “Sir, we remember how that impostor said, while he was still alive, ‘After three days I will rise.’ 64 Therefore order the tomb to be made secure until the third day, lest his disciples go and steal him away and tell the people, ‘He has risen from the dead,’ and the last fraud will be worse than the first.” 65 Pilate said to them, “You have a guard[j] of soldiers. Go, make it as secure as you can.” 66 So they went and made the tomb secure by sealing the stone and setting a guard.

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15 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Found an interesting article on the superstitions attending the nailing of coins/nails into (or tying of rags on) trees, which might link 'pennytree' to 'penitentiary' (or penny-tentia-tree...?), :P in line with our recent discussions regarding the weirwood as prison for some 'fell' presence (life sentence without parole):

From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1988790/

'Rituals, ceremonies and customs related to sacred trees with a special reference to the Middle East'

Amots Dafni

J Ethnobiol Ethnomed. 2007; 3: 28.

 

:wub:

Thanks for the article. I like the rain making ceremonies taking place under the tree. It reminds me of this

Quote

"Renly's made his own Kingsguard," the onetime smuggler explained, "but these seven don't wear white. Each one has his own color. Loras Tyrell's their Lord Commander."

It was just the sort of notion that would appeal to Renly Baratheon; a splendid new order of knighthood, with gorgeous new raiment to proclaim it. Even as a boy, Renly had loved bright colors and rich fabrics, and he had loved his games as well. "Look at me!" he would shout as he ran laughing through the halls of Storm's End. "Look at me, I'm a dragon," or "Look at me, I'm a wizard," or "Look at me, look at me, I'm the rain god." 

The bold little boy with wild black hair and laughing eyes was a man grown now, one-and-twenty, and still he played his games. Look at me, I'm a king, Cressen thought sadly. Oh, Renly, Renly, dear sweet child, do you know what you are doing? 

 

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2 hours ago, LmL said:

When it comes to things as exciting as all this weirwoodnet stuff we've been collectively working and the under the see ideas... I mean I am just super excited to present this stuff to everyone, I cannot write and get these episodes out fast enough. I just love how mind-bendingly psychedelic this stuff gets under the see... anyway I just wanted to say thanks to everyone and that I am more inspired by everyone than ever.  So many of you have extensive knowledge of things I do not, and to be able to throw out a pattern or symbol that I notice and then be treated to something like @Pain killer Jane's insight on the Pennytree, and then to watch @Blue Tiger and RR and everyone else run with it... I mean I was just looking at the thing and knowing it had something to do with Dunk's tree and meteor symbol, but I could not for the life of me figure out what it meant.  Now it turns out to be super important, as it always seemed to be, only more so! This shit is just awesome, I love you all, that's all I wanted to say. Cheers everyone.  

:cheers: :wub:

I am excited for this piece. And thank you for tolerating my often fractured way of thinking about symbolism and being patient with me. Oh by the way something I wanted to point out to you about something I am working on concerning the copper disks.

Quote

Monks, there are these three things which are practiced in secret, not openly. What are they?

The ways of womenfolk are secret, not open. Brahmins practice their chants in secret, not openly. Those of perverse views [that’s philosophically rather than sexually perverse views] hold their views secretly, not openly. These are the three things…

Monks, there are these three things which shine forth for all to see, which are not hidden. Which three?

The disc of the moon shines for all to see; it is not hidden. The disc of the sun does likewise. The Dhamma-Discipline [dhamma-vinaya] of a Tathagata [Buddha] shines for all to see; it is not hidden. These are the three things.

-The Book of Threes, Book of Gradual Sayings Vol. 1, Buddha 

You may have heard it as "Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth."

 

2 hours ago, LmL said:
4 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

It could be both all three honestly. She could have been stolen out of the weirwood net, impregnated and then sacrificed for her power. That would be a triple goddess, maiden, mother and then crone (the crone part especially if Lady Stoneheart is meant to represent that aspect of the crone). 

Lady Cat might have the best weirwood symbolism of any of the fiery moon maidens, I am finding. She has the Cat's paw scene, the Red Wedding, and her 2 appearances as Stoneheart, and they are all fabulous examples of NN becoming a weirwood or being a weirwood who has her face carved

:agree: 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

And keep in mind that those coins have faces of kings on them... And who's the most famous king nailed to a tree? Jesus Christ, and scholars often point out that symbolically this act merged them into one, with blood running down the wood. And what happens right after that? The earth darkens, Temple's courtain splits in two, earthquakes crack open the ground, rocks shake and shatter... And the dead rise... And after three hours Jesus dies and is pierced by spear, which was later called The Spear of Destiny or Holy Lance...

We see similar story in ASOIAF, at least if we agree with @LmL's  theory...

Bloodstone Emperor (and according to legends this stone was created when drops of Christ's blood fell on Mt Calvary's rocks)... Azor Ahai... The Grey King... But their (or his, should it turn put they're the same guy) versions of the story are reversed and twisted... They're not saving the world, they just want power and wisdom for themselves...

  Hide contents

 

Jesus Delivered to Pilate

27 When morning came, all the chief priests and the elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death. And they bound him and led him away and delivered him over to Pilate the governor.

Judas Hangs Himself

Then when Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus[a] was condemned, he changed his mind and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.” And throwing down the pieces of silver into the temple, he departed, and he went and hanged himself. But the chief priests, taking the pieces of silver, said, “It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, since it is blood money.” So they took counsel and bought with them the potter's field as a burial place for strangers. Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day. Then was fulfilled what had been spoken by the prophet Jeremiah, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel, 10 and they gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord directed me.”

Jesus Before Pilate

11 Now Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, “Are you the King of the Jews?” Jesus said, “You have said so.” 12 But when he was accused by the chief priests and elders, he gave no answer.13 Then Pilate said to him, “Do you not hear how many things they testify against you?” 14 But he gave him no answer, not even to a single charge, so that the governor was greatly amazed.

The Crowd Chooses Barabbas

15 Now at the feast the governor was accustomed to release for the crowd any one prisoner whom they wanted. 16 And they had then a notorious prisoner called Barabbas. 17 So when they had gathered, Pilate said to them, “Whom do you want me to release for you: Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?” 18 For he knew that it was out of envy that they had delivered him up. 19 Besides, while he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent word to him, “Have nothing to do with that righteous man, for I have suffered much because of him today in a dream.” 20 Now the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus. 21 The governor again said to them, “Which of the two do you want me to release for you?” And they said, “Barabbas.” 22 Pilate said to them, “Then what shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?” They all said, “Let him be crucified!” 23 And he said, “Why? What evil has he done?” But they shouted all the more, “Let him be crucified!”

Pilate Delivers Jesus to Be Crucified

24 So when Pilate saw that he was gaining nothing, but rather that a riot was beginning, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, “I am innocent of this man's blood;[b] see to it yourselves.”25 And all the people answered, “His blood be on us and on our children!”26 Then he released for them Barabbas, and having scourged[c] Jesus, delivered him to be crucified.

Jesus Is Mocked

27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the governor's headquarters,[d] and they gathered the whole battalion[e] before him.28 And they stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, 29 and twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on his head and put a reed in his right hand. And kneeling before him, they mocked him, saying, “Hail, King of the Jews!” 30 And they spit on him and took the reed and struck him on the head. 31 And when they had mocked him, they stripped him of the robe and put his own clothes on him and led him away to crucify him.

The Crucifixion

32 As they went out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name. They compelled this man to carry his cross. 33 And when they came to a place called Golgotha (which means Place of a Skull), 34 they offered him wine to drink, mixed with gall, but when he tasted it, he would not drink it.35 And when they had crucified him, they divided his garments among them by casting lots. 36 Then they sat down and kept watch over him there. 37 And over his head they put the charge against him, which read, “This is Jesus, the King of the Jews.” 38 Then two robbers were crucified with him, one on the right and one on the left. 39 And those who passed by derided him, wagging their heads 40 and saying, “You who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross.” 41 So also the chief priests, with the scribes and elders, mocked him, saying, 42 “He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him. For he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”44 And the robbers who were crucified with him also reviled him in the same way.

The Death of Jesus

45 Now from the sixth hour[f] there was darkness over all the land[g] until the ninth hour.[h] 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” 47 And some of the bystanders, hearing it, said, “This man is calling Elijah.” 48 And one of them at once ran and took a sponge, filled it with sour wine, and put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink. 49 But the others said, “Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him.” 50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.

51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 54 When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, “Truly this was the Son[i] of God!”

55 There were also many women there, looking on from a distance, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him, 56 among whom were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.

Jesus Is Buried

57 When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who also was a disciple of Jesus. 58 He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate ordered it to be given to him. 59 And Joseph took the body and wrapped it in a clean linen shroud 60 and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had cut in the rock. And he rolled a great stone to the entrance of the tomb and went away. 61 Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were there, sitting opposite the tomb.

The Guard at the Tomb

62 The next day, that is, after the day of Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered before Pilate 63 and said, “Sir, we remember how that impostor said, while he was still alive, ‘After three days I will rise.’ 64 Therefore order the tomb to be made secure until the third day, lest his disciples go and steal him away and tell the people, ‘He has risen from the dead,’ and the last fraud will be worse than the first.” 65 Pilate said to them, “You have a guard[j] of soldiers. Go, make it as secure as you can.” 66 So they went and made the tomb secure by sealing the stone and setting a guard.

 

One of the first things done to victims of crucifixion was to break their legs with a club just like our hero who is merging with a tree.  The act was called crurifragium.  There were a ton of different wooden structures used over the years in different places including trees.    

 

It was also common to impale the victim's private parts.  This brings to mind a similar form of execution, that by impaling.  I wonder if we look at Vlad the Impaler if we will find anything useful. Some of the stories about him involve taking his meals amongst a forest of people imapled on wooden spikes like bloody trees.  Sounds promising in a sick ASoIaF sort of way.      

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Unchained said:

 

One of the first things done to victims of crucifixion was to break their legs with a club just like our hero who is merging with a tree.  The act was called crurifragium.  There were a ton of different wooden structures used over the years in different places including trees.    

 

It was also common to impale the victim's private parts.  This brings to mind a similar form of execution, that by impaling.  I wonder if we look at Vlad the Impaler if we will find anything useful. Some of the stories about him involve taking his meals amongst a forest of people imapled on wooden spikes like bloody trees.  Sounds promising in a sick ASoIaF sort of way.      

 

 

But it's noted that in Jesus' case it wasn't done. (Luke 23)

Spoiler

Jesus Before Herod

When Pilate heard this, he asked whether the man was a Galilean.And when he learned that he belonged to Herod's jurisdiction, he sent him over to Herod, who was himself in Jerusalem at that time. When Herod saw Jesus, he was very glad, for he had long desired to see him, because he had heard about him, and he was hoping to see some sign done by him. So he questioned him at some length, but he made no answer. 10 The chief priests and the scribes stood by, vehemently accusing him. 11 And Herod with his soldiers treated him with contempt and mocked him. Then, arraying him in splendid clothing, he sent him back to Pilate. 12 And Herod and Pilate became friends with each other that very day, for before this they had been at enmity with each other.

13 Pilate then called together the chief priests and the rulers and the people, 14 and said to them, “You brought me this man as one who was misleading the people. And after examining him before you, behold, I did not find this man guilty of any of your charges against him.15 Neither did Herod, for he sent him back to us. Look, nothing deserving death has been done by him. 16 I will therefore punish and release him.”[a]

Pilate Delivers Jesus to Be Crucified

18 But they all cried out together, “Away with this man, and release to us Barabbas”— 19 a man who had been thrown into prison for an insurrection started in the city and for murder. 20 Pilate addressed them once more, desiring to release Jesus, 21 but they kept shouting, “Crucify, crucify him!” 22 A third time he said to them, “Why? What evil has he done? I have found in him no guilt deserving death. I will therefore punish and release him.” 23 But they were urgent, demanding with loud cries that he should be crucified. And their voices prevailed. 24 So Pilate decided that their demand should be granted. 25 He released the man who had been thrown into prison for insurrection and murder, for whom they asked, but he delivered Jesus over to their will.

The Crucifixion

26 And as they led him away, they seized one Simon of Cyrene, who was coming in from the country, and laid on him the cross, to carry it behind Jesus. 27 And there followed him a great multitude of the people and of women who were mourning and lamenting for him. 28 But turning to them Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ 30 Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.’ 31 For if they do these things when the wood is green, what will happen when it is dry?”

32 Two others, who were criminals, were led away to be put to death with him. 33 And when they came to the place that is called The Skull, there they crucified him, and the criminals, one on his right and one on his left. 34 And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”[b] And they cast lots to divide his garments. 35 And the people stood by, watching, but the rulers scoffed at him, saying, “He saved others; let him save himself, if he is the Christ of God, his Chosen One!”36 The soldiers also mocked him, coming up and offering him sour wine37 and saying, “If you are the King of the Jews, save yourself!” 38 There was also an inscription over him,[c] “This is the King of the Jews.”

39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him,[d] saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

The Death of Jesus

44 It was now about the sixth hour,[e] and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour,[f] 45 while the sun's light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last. 47 Now when the centurion saw what had taken place, he praised God, saying, “Certainly this man was innocent!” 48 And all the crowds that had assembled for this spectacle, when they saw what had taken place, returned home beating their breasts. 49 And all his acquaintances and the women who had followed him from Galilee stood at a distance watching these things.

And: (John 19)

Spoiler

Jesus Delivered to Be Crucified

19 Then Pilate took Jesus and flogged him. And the soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head and arrayed him in a purple robe. They came up to him, saying, “Hail, King of the Jews!” and struck him with their hands. Pilate went out again and said to them, “See, I am bringing him out to you that you may know that I find no guilt in him.” So Jesus came out, wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe. Pilate said to them, “Behold the man!” When the chief priests and the officers saw him, they cried out, “Crucify him, crucify him!” Pilate said to them, “Take him yourselves and crucify him, for I find no guilt in him.” The Jews[a] answered him, “We have a law, and according to that law he ought to die because he has made himself the Son of God.” When Pilate heard this statement, he was even more afraid. He entered his headquarters again and said to Jesus, “Where are you from?” But Jesus gave him no answer. 10 So Pilate said to him, “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?” 11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.”

12 From then on Pilate sought to release him, but the Jews cried out, “If you release this man, you are not Caesar's friend. Everyone who makes himself a king opposes Caesar.” 13 So when Pilate heard these words, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judgment seat at a place called The Stone Pavement, and in Aramaic[b] Gabbatha. 14 Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover. It was about the sixth hour.[c] He said to the Jews, “Behold your King!” 15 They cried out, “Away with him, away with him, crucify him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.” 16 So he delivered him over to them to be crucified.

The Crucifixion

So they took Jesus, 17 and he went out, bearing his own cross, to the place called The Place of a Skull, which in Aramaic is called Golgotha.18 There they crucified him, and with him two others, one on either side, and Jesus between them. 19 Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It read, “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.” 20 Many of the Jews read this inscription, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and it was written in Aramaic, in Latin, and in Greek.21 So the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, “Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but rather, ‘This man said, I am King of the Jews.’” 22 Pilate answered, “What I have written I have written.”

23 When the soldiers had crucified Jesus, they took his garments and divided them into four parts, one part for each soldier; also his tunic.[d]But the tunic was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom,24 so they said to one another, “Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it to see whose it shall be.” This was to fulfill the Scripture which says,

“They divided my garments among them,
    and for my clothing they cast lots.”

So the soldiers did these things, 25 but standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

The Death of Jesus

28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the Scripture), “I thirst.” 29 A jar full of sour wine stood there, so they put a sponge full of the sour wine on a hyssop branch and held it to his mouth.30 When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Jesus' Side Is Pierced

31 Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. 32 So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him. 33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. 35 He who saw it has borne witness—his testimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truth—that you also may believe. 36 For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: Not one of his bones will be broken.” 37 And again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they have pierced.”

 

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@BlueTiger The exceptional thing in that passage is not just that they didn't break is his legs, but that he died willingly. Breaking the legs stops the person from holding themself up and makes asphyxiation inevitable, which Jesus didn't require. In terms of "going into the weirwood" or becoming undead or other such metaphors, I think that bible passage would indicate a willing confinement, at least to start. Of course the intactness of the bones is meaningful when it comes to interpreting Jesus' divinity (because how else could he walk out of the tomb?), but in ASOIAF, the character about to enter the weirnet is "broken", his legs in particular. And Bloodraven could use a trip to the gym. At the least, I guess we can surmise that weirwood inhabitors are not anyone's savior.



@LmL Unrelated to anything being discussed at the moment, but I found a great moon death/LB exposition unexpectedly while looking into something else: 

Quote

It was midday when the others returned. Woth reported a wooden bridge half a mile downstream, but someone had burned it up. Yoren peeled a sourleaf off the bale. "Might be we could swim the horses over, maybe the donkeys, but there's no way we'll get those wagons across. And there's smoke to the north and west, more fires, could be this side o' the river's the place we want to be." He picked up a long stick and drew a circle in the mud, a line trailing down from it. "That's Gods Eye, with the river flowing south. We're here." He poked a hole beside the line of the river, under the circle. "We can't go round west of the lake, like I thought. East takes us back to the kingsroad." He moved the stick up to where the line and circle met. "Near as I recall, there's a town here. The holdfast's stone, and there's a lordling got his seat there too, just a towerhouse, but he'll have a guard, might be a knight or two. We follow the river north, should be there before dark. They'll have boats, so I mean to sell all we got and hire us one." He drew the stick up through the circle of the lake, from bottom to top. "Gods be good, we'll find a wind and sail across the Gods Eye to Harrentown." He thrust the point down at the top of the circle. "We can buy new mounts there, or else take shelter at Harrenhal. That's Lady Whent's seat, and she's always been a friend o' the Watch."

A Clash of Kings - Arya IV

Yoren is basically charting out the sequence of events in the moon disaster. Telling that they call the lake God's Eye and not THE God's Eye. It's a pretty straightforward reference to the concept of a lunar god. And it's killed by a stick to the eye... like dragons. The merging of lunar and solar symbols confirms the premise of an eclipse at the time of impact.

I also think it may be significant that Yoren peels off that sourleaf. We know that the "red smile" is a consistent indicator that someone is going to die, and also that death/undeath/unlife represents a semi-omniscient realm, such as being in the weirnet, dreaming, being "under the sea", or "in the flames". Knowing that, it appears as if Yoren's bite of sourleaf*** also invokes this prophetic realm and serves as a hint to the reader that heavily metaphorical or prophetic stuff is about to be said. 

*** Interestingly, the bible passage quoted above notes that Jesus died right after taking a manner of communion with sourwine

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On 3/18/2017 at 8:13 PM, cgrav said:

@BlueTiger The exceptional thing in that passage is not just that they didn't break is his legs, but that he died willingly. Breaking the legs stops the person from holding themself up and makes asphyxiation inevitable, which Jesus didn't require. In terms of "going into the weirwood" or becoming undead or other such metaphors, I think that bible passage would indicate a willing confinement, at least to start. Of course the intactness of the bones is meaningful when it comes to interpreting Jesus' divinity (because how else could he walk out of the tomb?), but in ASOIAF, the character about to enter the weirnet is "broken", his legs in particular. And Bloodraven could use a trip to the gym. At the least, I guess we can surmise that weirwood inhabitors are not anyone's savior.
 

That's nice, I like, i think we have all found crucifixion and garden of eden ideas, so yeah, that makes sense.

On 3/18/2017 at 8:13 PM, cgrav said:



@LmL Unrelated to anything being discussed at the moment, but I found a great moon death/LB exposition unexpectedly while looking into something else: 

Yoren is basically charting out the sequence of events in the moon disaster. Telling that they call the lake God's Eye and not THE God's Eye. It's a pretty straightforward reference to the concept of a lunar god. And it's killed by a stick to the eye... like dragons. The merging of lunar and solar symbols confirms the premise of an eclipse at the time of impact.

I also think it may be significant that Yoren peels off that sourleaf. We know that the "red smile" is a consistent indicator that someone is going to die, and also that death/undeath/unlife represents a semi-omniscient realm, such as being in the weirnet, dreaming, being "under the sea", or "in the flames". Knowing that, it appears as if Yoren's bite of sourleaf*** also invokes this prophetic realm and serves as a hint to the reader that heavily metaphorical or prophetic stuff is about to be said. 

*** Interestingly, the bible passage quoted above notes that Jesus died right after taking a manner of communion with sourwine

Yeah, been saving that one for my God's Eye essay. George drew a diagram in the dirt... pretty nice. This actually parallels the myth of Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, which is kind of a lark. 

On 3/18/2017 at 1:00 PM, Unchained said:

One of the first things done to victims of crucifixion was to break their legs with a club just like our hero who is merging with a tree.  The act was called crurifragium.  There were a ton of different wooden structures used over the years in different places including trees.    

Word. Thanks for the penis thing... not. ;)

On 3/18/2017 at 10:17 AM, Pain killer Jane said:

:cheers: :wub:

I am excited for this piece. And thank you for tolerating my often fractured way of thinking about symbolism and being patient with me. Oh by the way something I wanted to point out to you about something I am working on concerning the copper disks.

I love kinky folk! heh heh. Kidding aside, you know how much I value you PKJ.  

 

On 3/18/2017 at 10:17 AM, Pain killer Jane said:

You may have heard it as "Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth."

There is a super deep esoteric concept from somewhere... I forget where... that involves the idea of the "night sun" being a spiritual source of light which was always visible, even at night. The physical sun is actually just a conduit for this real sun. I'll try to look it up.

On 3/17/2017 at 3:55 PM, ravenous reader said:

Found an interesting article on the superstitions attending the nailing of coins/nails into (or tying of rags on) trees, which might link 'pennytree' to 'penitentiary' (or penny-tentia-tree...?), :P in line with our recent discussions regarding the weirwood as prison for some 'fell' presence (life sentence without parole):

From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1988790/

'Rituals, ceremonies and customs related to sacred trees with a special reference to the Middle East'

Amots Dafni

J Ethnobiol Ethnomed. 2007; 3: 28.

That was super interesting - the nailing the demon in to the tree seems like a very suspicious tale indeed. I guess the qwuestion becomes, was AA trapped in the net by someone else to contain him, or did he force his way in? Or did he force his way in, only to br trapped?

We also have the idea of Bran's cauldron and someone entering it to destroy it from within.

On 3/17/2017 at 6:04 PM, Unchained said:

There was a tree at a place I used to live, and if you met your spouse there you were supposed to nail your shoes to it for good luck.  I did meet my wife there, but after looking at it, neither of us wanted anything to do with it.  Turns out driving hundreds or thousands of nails into a tree is kinda bad for it.  It was dead and black with a pile of rotten shoes on and around it.  I could definitely see that thing having a demon in it.

 

There is a popular belief that driving copper nails into trees and carving strips into them is an effective way to kill them.  Someone carved faces into them and the First Men are strongly associated with Bronze, more evidence they are 'wight trees' and 'ghosts'.

Yes, the tree and the greenseer merge - everything about this screams out that truth. They are both half dead. 

On 3/18/2017 at 1:45 AM, Blue Tiger said:

And keep in mind that those coins have faces of kings on them... And who's the most famous king nailed to a tree? Jesus Christ, and scholars often point out that symbolically this act merged them into one, with blood running down the wood. And what happens right after that? The earth darkens, Temple's courtain splits in two, earthquakes crack open the ground, rocks shake and shatter... And the dead rise... And after three hours Jesus dies and is pierced by spear, which was later called The Spear of Destiny or Holy Lance...

We see similar story in ASOIAF, at least if we agree with @LmL's  theory...

 

I heard a rumor I make people take loyalty oaths, but I think that's fake news

On 3/18/2017 at 1:45 AM, Blue Tiger said:

Bloodstone Emperor (and according to legends this stone was created when drops of Christ's blood fell on Mt Calvary's rocks)... Azor Ahai... The Grey King... But their (or his, should it turn put they're the same guy) versions of the story are reversed and twisted... They're not saving the world, they just want power and wisdom for themselves...

Exactly, it seems like the emphasis is no stealing, challenging the gods. Climbing too high. 

Sorry to be on hiatus y'all, I've been writing and recording. :)

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