Post your most hated POV's

[WSmith84]

10 hours ago, khal drogon said:

Good attempt at trolling here. But come up with real arguments otherwise arguing will become pointless.

See, this is a problem. Another poster disagrees with your point of view, they're trolling. I provide reasons for my opinion on something: those reasons are lame and I'm just repeating a popular opinion. You provide reasons for why you like something: it's a valid opinion and screw anyone else for disagreeing.

On 27/02/2017 at 0:58 PM, khal drogon said:

Who cares what you think of Meereen? Again lame reasons. It just shows your disinterest and you are using hyperboles to prove it is flat. While I think of Meereen I think of the oppressed classes, different mindsets of slavers, varying interests of nearby regions, economic impact of Slaver's bay in the world, religious uprisings. These things interests me. While I think of White Harbor I think of Manderly and a cold city in the North. See I could do that too. In fact I like Essos because it gives a contrast to the bickering lords of Westeros. From Essos chapters I could feel his whole world coming alive a feeling which I don't get from isolated Westeros. Essos contrasts Westeros and I like them both because they aren't equal.

Baseless argument again. I started liking Daenerys only after Astapor because of her anti slavery campaign which is not possible without Essos and if I have thought Essos is pointless I wouldn't have even liked her. I like Barristan, Tyrion and even Quentyn chapters too so your accusation has no basis.

We are talking about characters featuring in those chapters and not their races so they are relevant to the argument. Much of the story revolves around those characters not those ridiculous characters you mention. Even those villains you mention are not the focus of the story. The focus of the story is Dany dealing with a city and Tyrion's experience with Slavery and Barristan's conflicting morals with the city. I included Drogo because the dynamic between him and Dany led to one of the best character arc in the story though he may not have as much as depth but he has more depth than Ramsay Snow for sure. 

Anyway liking any character or chapter is one's own opinion. You don't like Character X then don't try to preach that their story-line is inferior.

For sure, my reasons for thinking Essos is poorly-written are just my opinions. Of course they are. We are literally discussing the quality of something that is entirely subjective. But it's difficult to have a civilized discussion when you accuse the other side of trolling and having no basis in their arguments. In my opinion, not everything George writes is pure gold. Essos is more of a polished turd, in my opinion.

You like Essos? Good for you. I happen to like Tyrion's chapters on the Shy Maid, even though it seems most people hate them. But I don't belittle the opinions of those people.

[aventador577]

Victarion

Catelyn

Sam

Sansa 

[Good Guy Garlan]

14 hours ago, khal drogon said:

Blame GRRM here because it isn't an excuse. He specifically wrote it that way as we could see obvious differences between the depiction of Slavers in ASOS and ADWD. Slaver's bay became a more real place in ADWD with different POVs and with Dany looking at its problems than in ASOS where she was looking to conquer unnamed slavers. In ASOS they were the nameless caricatured villains but in ADWD they are not. And that's entirely because of the POVs we had. Everywhere people here tales and in tales there are often caricatures like how the Dothraki caricature Westerosi as men riding wooden horses.

Right, that's why we have characters as fleshed out and decidedly non-cartoony in Slaver's Bay like the Pigeon, the Rabbit, the Girl General, the Yellow Whale, and the rest of Dany's formidable enemies. 

[Renly's Banana]

Anything with Jon beyond the Wall is a bore-fest to me. I swear the only thing I remember about his chapters in ACoK are various descriptions of ice and frost and Ygritte's teeth. His stuff in ADWD is not much better either. Samwell before leaving the north is also unbearable. 80% of Bran's traveling stuff, too.

So.. I dunno, I guess I don't like anything north of Winterfell. To me it's not so much the characters as it is their locations and plot.

[Therae]

Cersei. Even though it's mostly really interesting story going on in her POV, I just really, really dislike Cerseiworld.

[Connagh the wolf]

Theon Greyjoy and especially Reek, I cannot handle Theon's Arrogance but feel terrible for him when he becomes Reek, no body deserves that sort of treatment...

[khal drogon]

5 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

See, this is a problem. Another poster disagrees with your point of view, they're trolling. I provide reasons for my opinion on something: those reasons are lame and I'm just repeating a popular opinion. You provide reasons for why you like something: it's a valid opinion and screw anyone else for disagreeing. 

That post is not directed at you. You are not the one who never tried to back up your arguments and diss the posts of whom you are arguing with. That feels like trolling to me. I don't think you are a troll anyway. But I disagree with your arguments. 

Ok maybe lame is a harsh word and I take it back but still I disagree about how Essosi characters are inferior. The story doesn't revolve around the people you are trying to label as Essosi characters. Dany's arc is not setup as a traditional hero vs bad guys here. There is no relevance for a strong villain type character there. Slaver's bay is about a naive ruler learning about the hardships of ruling. The story unfolds how she sees the world and we too view the Slavers the same way. Then as the story moves we learn the details and so is she. She learns they aren't just nameless bunch of villains but nobles the same kind she is going to deal with in Westeros. The Slavers are antagonists but they aren't focused much here but what Dany thinks of them is focused. I know these kind of story doesn't attract to a lot of you. But this is what the structure of the story as Martin has written. It would have been more traditional X vs Y if Martin tried to focus on the both sides giving POVs for them resembling most of the Westerosi arcs and possibly could have made more people like here. But then Martin has to make them real moustache twirling villains like Ramsay. In fact I don't even think those slavers are "moustache twirling villains" except people like Kraznys. That term kinda cheapens the story Martin is trying to tell. He is trying to give a commentary on slavery and their over the topness is meant to give a contrast and to bring conflict in morals. I do agree he made certain aspects of them over the top but I understand that is for a reason. But he also had made some Westerosi antagonists over the top too like Ramsay and Sand snakes which I consider unnecessary.

5 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

For sure, my reasons for thinking Essos is poorly-written are just my opinions. Of course they are. We are literally discussing the quality of something that is entirely subjective. But it's difficult to have a civilized discussion when you accuse the other side of trolling and having no basis in their arguments. In my opinion, not everything George writes is pure gold. Essos is more of a polished turd, in my opinion.

Not everything in Essos is shit and everything in Westeros is gold either. 

5 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

You like Essos? Good for you. I happen to like Tyrion's chapters on the Shy Maid, even though it seems most people hate them. But I don't belittle the opinions of those people.

And you seem to be doing the same here. Even in this post all you did was accusing me of belittling and called what I am arguing for as polished turd. That is quite hypocritical. And who never bothered to say anything about the other points I raised? It's you. It's never going to be a civil discussion if all you could do was this. 

4 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Right, that's why we have characters as fleshed out and decidedly non-cartoony in Slaver's Bay like the Pigeon, the Rabbit, the Girl General, the Yellow Whale, and the rest of Dany's formidable enemies. 

But what roles those characters had in the story? Why a random slaver should be fleshed out. This is a limiting POV type of story and ADWD is about the protagonist's character development. Fleshing out the opponent is not going to add anything because all we want is what our POV character is turning into. If Martin had POVs for slavers then there will be complaints like why a POV for this character. I could understand why that type of story doesn't appeal to a lot but it is what it is.

[acwill07]

6 hours ago, aventador577 said:

Victarion

Catelyn

Sam

Sansa 

How could you not like Catelyn chapters?  Hers are among my favorites because hers are the only ones that give us a look inside Robb's campaign and inside Riverrun.  I love getting information on the Blackfish and how the northern Lords and Riverland Lords interact amongst themselves.  I love her chapters.

My least favorite chapters are:

Sansa

Arya

Dany

Aeron

Sansa just kills me with her stupidity, although I will allow that her POVs become much more interesting once she leaves KL.  As for Arya and Dany, I just don't find Essos as interesting as the events that are transpiring in Westeros.  I totally understand their relevance, but they are definitely my least favorite.  Aeron's chapters are just miserable.

[acwill07]

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If I had to pick one it's definitely Sansa.  Her chapters are the absolute worst.

[Good Guy Garlan]

1 hour ago, khal drogon said:

But what roles those characters had in the story? Why a random slaver should be fleshed out. This is a limiting POV type of story and ADWD is about the protagonist's character development. Fleshing out the opponent is not going to add anything because all we want is what our POV character is turning into. If Martin had POVs for slavers then there will be complaints like why a POV for this character. I could understand why that type of story doesn't appeal to a lot but it is what it is.

Well, you said there's a big change in how the slavers are depicted from Storm to Dance, but I frankly see the same one-dimensional cartoons. And I'm sorry, but that does cheapen the narrative. If the theme of Dany's arc is her learning the hardships of ruling, then all the more reason to have compelling opponents. For one thing there's the moral issue of "Should Dany be invading these people,  conquering and colonizing their way of life willy nilly, and in general being a proto White Savior?" But instead of pondering these questions, GRRM already gave us the answer when he made her antagonists cruel slavers who literally kill puppies. Of course Dany's always gonna be in the right for fighting these subhuman monsters. And it's not like slavers, as repellent at that practice is, can't have a few layers of their own (Just look at Thomas Jefferson!). Also, characters don't need POVs to be fleshed out, look at Stannis, Sandor, Jorah, Littlefinger, and a whole lot more. 

[Renly's Banana]

1 hour ago, acwill07 said:

If I had to pick one it's definitely Sansa.  Her chapters are the absolute worst.

Why though? I usually find her stuff to be super interesting. Her and Tyrion's chapters in King's Landing are like the highlight of the second and third books for me.

[acwill07]

On 3/2/2017 at 0:39 AM, Renly's Banana said:

Why though? I usually find her stuff to be super interesting. Her and Tyrion's chapters in King's Landing are like the highlight of the second and third books for me.

Her chapters simply bore me.  Part of it probably has to do with the fact that I hate her character and her stupidity.....I'd rather read 10 Dorne chapters than one Sansa chapter LOL.

 

[myhalfgroat]

Hotah, Arianne, Damphair

on re-reads/audiobooks I tend to skip over Cat and Dany, but I really liked them the first time through. I realize it's probably sacrilege but I just really don't care about Robb's/Cats storyline anymore. I didn't care for Sansa the first time but now that I know she wises up I can enjoy all of her chapters.

[khal drogon]

On 3/2/2017 at 10:49 AM, Good Guy Garlan said:

Well, you said there's a big change in how the slavers are depicted from Storm to Dance, but I frankly see the same one-dimensional cartoons. And I'm sorry, but that does cheapen the narrative. If the theme of Dany's arc is her learning the hardships of ruling, then all the more reason to have compelling opponents. For one thing there's the moral issue of "Should Dany be invading these people,  conquering and colonizing their way of life willy nilly, and in general being a proto White Savior?" But instead of pondering these questions, GRRM already gave us the answer when he made her antagonists cruel slavers who literally kill puppies. Of course Dany's always gonna be in the right for fighting these subhuman monsters. And it's not like slavers, as repellent at that practice is, can't have a few layers of their own (Just look at Thomas Jefferson!). Also, characters don't need POVs to be fleshed out, look at Stannis, Sandor, Jorah, Littlefinger, and a whole lot more. 

I can't defend puppy killing because Martin has a tendency to go overboard as evident from his depiction of Ramsay and the Mountain. I could get where you are coming from. But my argument is those cartoonish aspects are not focused much and is exaggerated by people. ADWD had focus on food shortage, failing economy, refugee crisis, plague and insurgency. These things are definitely a step up from Storm to Dance and I found those interesting. The story did flesh out relevant characters yet people forget them in their blanket hate. In fact GRRM did ponder way too much on those questions yet you focus on puppy killing and that's what make me think Meereen chapters are underrated.

[Joy Hill]

If prologue POVs are included, I'd have to say Varamyr. I find his chapter boring and tedious. I also feel that Chett's chapter drags on and on.

Among the other POVs, it's between Dany and Victarion. Dany, because she is often irritating and the world has an annoying tendency to bend over backwards for her (and I detest Slaver's bay). Victarion. . . I don't really care about him nor his quest, and the black humor in his chapters is not nearly as entertaining as in Cersei's chapters IMO.

However, there isn't a single POV that I truly hate. 

[Stubby]

[MOD]

Two things.

1. If you think someone is trolling, please use the report function.

2. On reflection, given that hate threads are not permitted, this one is now closed.

[/MOD]