Let's speculate wildly about Lady Dustin

[Lord Wraith]

16 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Barbrey's father might have signaled that he would not tolerate anybody moving in on his daughter's seat. Manderly might have done something similar, but Ramsay challenged him. And maybe she has a designated heir that has not been disclosed for the reader yet. Oh, politics were much more stable when Eddard sat in Winterfell and Robert sat on the Iron Throne. 

Makes sense, the old Lord Ryswell seemed very ambitions.

21 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

@M_Tootles raised a good point on reddit: the childless widow Hornwood is expected to get married again, and quickly, and it's made plain that it's ultimately her liege lord's prerogative to choose the suitor. Nobody considers this arrangement to be particularly unusual in the Hornwood case, and yet when a similar situation occurred some 15 odd years previously, Lady Dustin was allowed to remain single.

Plainly, Ned never pressed the issue. The question is, why?

And let's consider some more interesting possibilities than "because Ned was nice", or "because Dustin and her brothers vetoed it". Ned may be nice, but he always places his duty first, and, if push comes to shove, the Ryswells and the Dustin smallfolk aren't going to rebel against Winterfell.

The Dustin lands appear to border, or at least sit near to, the lands of the Ryswells, the Tallharts, the Flints of Flint's Finger, and even the Manderlys and perhaps the Cerwyns. Lady Dustin is a Ryswell by birth and her only living relatives at the time of her husband's death were her brothers, and her sister, who was at one point married to Roose Bolton: their son served Lady Dustin for four years as a page. So we can see potential claims from the Ryswells and the Boltons, both of whom would be pleased to expand their demesnes; but just as in the Hornwood case, none of the other houses would be happy about their rivals growing so strong, and it might lead to war.

Perhaps Ned thought that the issue could be put off, since Lady Dustin was so young. But he's just seen half his family die over the course of a couple of years; if anybody should realise that things can change in the blink of an eye, it's Ned. (Contradicting this point is the fact that he let the only other adult Stark join the Night's Watch before his own sons had even survived their early, dangerous years.)

So what gives? Any fucking suggestions?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And while we're at it, let's put two and two together and see if we can't come up with five. Put on your tinfoil hats and 3D glasses, please, and let's check out some Lady Dustin quotes:

• ...if I so choose, I could be an inconvenience. Of course, Roose sees that too, so he takes care to keep me sweet.
• Lord Bolton aspires to more than mere lordship. Why not King of the North?
• If I were queen...

Queen, eh? Perhaps that's how he's going to keep her sweet. I mean, come on, there's certainly something interesting going on between those two.

And they do seem to have something in common. Here's Lady Dustin again:

If I were queen, the first thing I would do would be to kill all those grey rats.

Yes, Lady Dustin hates the maesters. But how does Roose feel about them?

• My old maester insisted it was a sign of sickness, yet the boy was otherwise as strong as a young bull.
• The maesters will tell you that King Jaehaerys abolished the lord's right to the first night to appease his shrewish queen, but where the old gods rule, old customs linger.
• A sickness of the bowels, Maester Uthor says, but I say poison.

The word "disdainful" springs to mind. And let's not forget that Roose made fast friends with Qyburn, a defrocked maester whose disdain for his old masters isn't a matter of conjecture.

Of course, Roose also makes use of the maesters as healers, and even Lady Dustin concedes that they do good medical work. But beyond that, perhaps there's a mutual antipathy towards this southron order interfering in the North.

And if Roose does aim to be king, then he'll need a queen - and having the Barrowlands and the Rills onside wouldn't hurt, either.

Edit: I actually quite want this to happen now. All hail King Roose and Queen Barbrey, the rightful rulers of winter!

Certainly plausible. The Frey's are a sinking ship and nothing but trouble to Roose. Ramsay as well.

[Daena the Defiant]

On 2/23/2017 at 6:23 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

My speculation is that a daughter of a previous Lord Dustin married a Lord Ryswell - perhaps Lady Dustin's father or grandfather. Note that we don't know who Lord Rodrik Ryswell's wife is. If she - or Rodrik's mother - happens to be a Dustin, then after the death of the last Lord Dustin, the Ryswells would become the heirs to Barrowton in any case. In that case, Lady Dustin is just holding the seat until her death, after which one of her brothers will likely become the Lord of Barrowton. Possibly, this would even mean that the oldest Ryswell brother would eventually become the Lord of the Rills AND the Lord of Barrowton.

In that case, one can understand why she was allowed to remain as Lady of Barrowton after her Lord husband's death.

I like this! It make sense. Lady Dustin has Barrowton by virtue of being allowed to maintain control in her dowager capacity, has the backing of the her own Ryswell family for the remainder of her lifetime, and has the backing (or lack of challenge) from what remains of House Dustin because she has a strong Dustin claim in her own right. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

4 hours ago, Daena the Defiant said:

I like this! It make sense. Lady Dustin has Barrowton by virtue of being allowed to maintain control in her dowager capacity, has the backing of the her own Ryswell family for the remainder of her lifetime, and has the backing (or lack of challenge) from what remains of House Dustin because she has a strong Dustin claim in her own right. 

Well, something similar turned out to be the answer as to which House Ned's mother was from. George answered long ago that she was simply "Lady Stark". Everyone took that as a somewhat snide remark, or an attempt to conceal her identity before she married Rickard Stark. As it turned out, she was from House Stark herself.

So it could well turn out that Lady Dustin's mother was a Dustin too. Or if not her mother, then perhaps her grandmother. Solving the mystery quite neatly.

[The Commentator]

On 2/23/2017 at 6:04 AM, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

@M_Tootles raised a good point on reddit: the childless widow Hornwood is expected to get married again, and quickly, and it's made plain that it's ultimately her liege lord's prerogative to choose the suitor. Nobody considers this arrangement to be particularly unusual in the Hornwood case, and yet when a similar situation occurred some 15 odd years previously, Lady Dustin was allowed to remain single.

Plainly, Ned never pressed the issue. The question is, why?

And let's consider some more interesting possibilities than "because Ned was nice", or "because Dustin and her brothers vetoed it". Ned may be nice, but he always places his duty first, and, if push comes to shove, the Ryswells and the Dustin smallfolk aren't going to rebel against Winterfell.

The Dustin lands appear to border, or at least sit near to, the lands of the Ryswells, the Tallharts, the Flints of Flint's Finger, and even the Manderlys and perhaps the Cerwyns. Lady Dustin is a Ryswell by birth and her only living relatives at the time of her husband's death were her brothers, and her sister, who was at one point married to Roose Bolton: their son served Lady Dustin for four years as a page. So we can see potential claims from the Ryswells and the Boltons, both of whom would be pleased to expand their demesnes; but just as in the Hornwood case, none of the other houses would be happy about their rivals growing so strong, and it might lead to war.

Perhaps Ned thought that the issue could be put off, since Lady Dustin was so young. But he's just seen half his family die over the course of a couple of years; if anybody should realise that things can change in the blink of an eye, it's Ned. (Contradicting this point is the fact that he let the only other adult Stark join the Night's Watch before his own sons had even survived their early, dangerous years.)

So what gives? Any fucking suggestions?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And while we're at it, let's put two and two together and see if we can't come up with five. Put on your tinfoil hats and 3D glasses, please, and let's check out some Lady Dustin quotes:

• ...if I so choose, I could be an inconvenience. Of course, Roose sees that too, so he takes care to keep me sweet.
• Lord Bolton aspires to more than mere lordship. Why not King of the North?
• If I were queen...

Queen, eh? Perhaps that's how he's going to keep her sweet. I mean, come on, there's certainly something interesting going on between those two.

And they do seem to have something in common. Here's Lady Dustin again:

If I were queen, the first thing I would do would be to kill all those grey rats.

Yes, Lady Dustin hates the maesters. But how does Roose feel about them?

• My old maester insisted it was a sign of sickness, yet the boy was otherwise as strong as a young bull.
• The maesters will tell you that King Jaehaerys abolished the lord's right to the first night to appease his shrewish queen, but where the old gods rule, old customs linger.
• A sickness of the bowels, Maester Uthor says, but I say poison.

The word "disdainful" springs to mind. And let's not forget that Roose made fast friends with Qyburn, a defrocked maester whose disdain for his old masters isn't a matter of conjecture.

Of course, Roose also makes use of the maesters as healers, and even Lady Dustin concedes that they do good medical work. But beyond that, perhaps there's a mutual antipathy towards this southron order interfering in the North.

And if Roose does aim to be king, then he'll need a queen - and having the Barrowlands and the Rills onside wouldn't hurt, either.

Edit: I actually quite want this to happen now. All hail King Roose and Queen Barbrey, the rightful rulers of winter!

For that matter, why was it that Winterfell never pressured Roose Bolton to remarry and produce an heir?  

The Starks are not the honorable good samaritans that many readers believe them to be. The Starks could have wanted the Bolton family line to end.  It's not beyond comprehension to believe they may want Lady Dustin's lands to become available to pass on to a future potential bannerman that they liked.  Having Bolton and Dustin lands available to give to a future loyal family could be valuable to the Starks.  Ned didn't particularly like Roose and their houses were ancient enemies.  Lady Dustin was unhappy with the Starks and maybe they knew.  The Starks were content to let those families die out so they can assign their lands to someone they like.  

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

For that matter, why was it that Winterfell never pressured Roose Bolton to remarry and produce an heir?  

The Starks are not the honorable good samaritans that many readers believe them to be. The Starks could have wanted the Bolton family line to end.  It's not beyond comprehension to believe they may want Lady Dustin's lands to become available to pass on to a future potential bannerman that they liked.  Having Bolton and Dustin lands available to give to a future loyal family could be valuable to the Starks.  Ned didn't particularly like Roose and their houses were ancient enemies.  Lady Dustin was unhappy with the Starks and maybe they knew.  The Starks were content to let those families die out so they can assign their lands to someone they like.  

Maybe that's what Eddard had in mind when he told Bran,

Quote

"One day, Bran, you will be Robb's bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you."

Bran I, Game 1

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

On 24/2/2017 at 0:58 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Lady Dustin is actually Rhaegar

Finally someone's talking sense

 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

On 24/2/2017 at 2:00 AM, Seams said:

If we're speculating wildly, I would say that Ned never pushed her to remarry because her husband didn't really die.

[...]

The husband's name is/was Willem Dustin, which may put him in the group of Will-related characters who play critical roles but remain offstage: Wylla the wet nurse, Wyllis the historian of Hardhome who vanished, Willas Tyrell who walks with a cane but really seems a bit too reclusive if that's his only disability. I realize that there are some Will characters who are not hidden, but there does seem to be a cluster of mysterious lost Wills.

Willem Darry?

As for the idea that Lady Dustin is sort of a Dustin by birth anyway, that certainly does work, although it runs into this problem: would the Starks permit two of the bigger houses in the North, especially two whose lands adjoin, to consolidate their power like that? It seems like preventing any of their vassals from getting too powerful, either to threaten the Starks or to worry the other vassals, is a priority in the Hornwood situation. And long-term, keeping your vassals from getting too powerful is a great way to hold onto power, and the Starks have been holding on to power for a ludicrously long time.

[Lord Wraith]

On 2/23/2017 at 1:00 PM, Seams said:

If we're speculating wildly, I would say that Ned never pushed her to remarry because her husband didn't really die.

She and Ned could have cooked up the I-hate-Ned-because-he-never-returned-my-husband's-bones cover story together. If people thought Lady Dustin hated Ned, they might believe that he refrains from pushing her into a new marriage because he realizes that she loathes him and he doesn't want to alienate her altogether.

Or maybe she doesn't know her husband is still alive: he stays away because she was a shrew from day one in their marriage, called him "Brandon" in bed on their wedding night, or because he's gay and doesn't feel comfortable admitting it, or he's on a secret mission to Volantis or something.

The husband's name is/was Willem Dustin, which may put him in the group of Will-related characters who play critical roles but remain offstage: Wylla the wet nurse, Wyllis the historian of Hardhome who vanished, Willas Tyrell who walks with a cane but really seems a bit too reclusive if that's his only disability. I realize that there are some Will characters who are not hidden, but there does seem to be a cluster of mysterious lost Wills.

Seams you might enjoy this.

http://thelasthearth.com/thread/144/wild-wacky-willem-darry-2

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Willem Darry?

As for the idea that Lady Dustin is sort of a Dustin by birth anyway, that certainly does work, although it runs into this problem: would the Starks permit two of the bigger houses in the North, especially two whose lands adjoin, to consolidate their power like that? It seems like preventing any of their vassals from getting too powerful, either to threaten the Starks or to worry the other vassals, is a priority in the Hornwood situation. And long-term, keeping your vassals from getting too powerful is a great way to hold onto power, and the Starks have been holding on to power for a ludicrously long time.

All this speculation about the Starks' Machiavellian machinations to keep their bannermen from growing too powerful is utterly unfounded. Frankly, I find it suspicious as hell that we don't see far more consolidation of power across Westeros. Given the high death rate among nobles in just the last war, one would think that intermarriage between noble Houses would have resulted in many instances where the surviving heir of one House is also the only surviving heir of another House.

Much like if Edmure and his son dies, Bran will be the heir to both Winterfell and Riverrun, followed by Rickon, if Bran dies, followed by Sansa and Arya if both boys die.

This should be happening all over the place. I think it is just conveniently ignored by George.

[St Daga]

20 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The Starks are not the honorable good samaritans that many readers believe them to be. The Starks could have wanted the Bolton family line to end.  It's not beyond comprehension to believe they may want Lady Dustin's lands to become available to pass on to a future potential bannerman that they liked.  Having Bolton and Dustin lands available to give to a future loyal family could be valuable to the Starks.  Ned didn't particularly like Roose and their houses were ancient enemies.  Lady Dustin was unhappy with the Starks and maybe they knew.  The Starks were content to let those families die out so they can assign their lands to someone they like.  

This would not mean the Starks were not honorable or good samaritians, it would just make them smart.

I don't see it as much with the Dustin/Ryswell houses, but the Boltons could easily disappear from Planetos. But I don't think that Roose's heir Domeric died much before our story starts, maybe a year or two, at most. There was no need for Roose to have a new heir until recently. And Domeric seems like a much more decent person than Roose, so maybe Ned didn't mind Domeric taking over House Bolton.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

1 minute ago, St Daga said:

This would not mean the Starks were not honorable or good samaritians, it would just make them smart.

I don't see it as much with the Dustin/Ryswell houses, but the Boltons could easily disappear from Planetos. But I don't think that Roose's heir Domeric died much before our story starts, maybe a year or two, at most. There was no need for Roose to have a new heir until recently. And Domeric seems like a much more decent person than Roose, so maybe Ned didn't mind Domeric taking over House Bolton.

Correctimundo, Domeric only died a couple of years previous, and Roose ain't that old either. Lady Hornwood is.

Plus it's Westeros: a lady who married into a house has less claim to those lands that the direct male descendant. So the Hornwood situation is more precarious than the Bolton one.

[Seams]

4 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Seams you might enjoy this.

http://thelasthearth.com/thread/144/wild-wacky-willem-darry-2

Thanks! Fascinating. I love mysteries like this, with attention to detail all documented.

So that's either another "offstage but important" Will for the collection, or possibly Willem Dustin's undercover decoy mission about which I was speculating. Willem Darry's connection to House Darry is one of those conveniently vague and unknown relationships. I suspect that you don't have to join the Second Sons to take a new name and create a false identity for yourself.

Aside from the crackpot notion that Willem Dustin didn't die at TOJ, I also think that Ser Mandon Moore may be an undead member of the TOJ kingsguard, restored to his old line of work by Ned and Jon Arryn (who provided the fake i.d. by saying the guy was from an old, minor noble house in the Vale). Darry is a Riverlands House, so some Tully participation might have been necessary to create that identity (if that is what happened). Or maybe Willem Darry's name is real, but he joined an anti-Aerys / pro-Targ-heir alliance after hearing and seeing the Mad King inflicting torture on loyal members of the small council as well as his own wife.

With Jon Arryn running the show for Robert, a strong Arryn-Tully-Stark alliance might have had a lot of hidden agents behind the scenes, carrying out an agenda of which the reader has not been made fully aware. Maybe it's time for a role call of northern, Vale and riverlands bannermen, to see who is unaccounted for.

[Curled Finger]

To the question of why did Ned allow Lady D to remain the head of House Dustin...I say GUILT.   Ned had remorse for not returning Willem's bones after Barbery laid bloody hell into him.  For bringing a damned horse back instead of Willem himself.   

Now then, with tin foil firmly affixed to my pointy head try this on...It seems to be a popular idea that Benjen Stark was in on the Rhaegar + Lyanna affair.  What if it was actually Brandon who came to learn or was in fact complicit in Lyanna's er plans with Rhaegar?  What if he mentioned this during pillow talk after sword fighting with Barbery?   Guilt may not motivate so well as blackmail, after all.   

I don't recall Brandon ever having been fostered out.   Could be everyone but Ned knew about Lyanna's plan. 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Now then, with tin foil firmly affixed to my pointy head try this on...It seems to be a popular idea that Benjen Stark was in on the Rhaegar + Lyanna affair.  What if it was actually Brandon who came to learn or was in fact complicit in Lyanna's er plans with Rhaegar?  What if he mentioned this during pillow talk after sword fighting with Barbery?   Guilt may not motivate so well as blackmail, after all.   

I don't recall Brandon ever having been fostered out.   Could be everyone but Ned knew about Lyanna's plan. 

Now that's more like it!

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Eddard + Barbery = Jon

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Now that's more like it!

I love an invitation to suppose, Man.  We can do so much better than the truth, right? 

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 2/25/2017 at 1:04 AM, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Willem Darry?

As for the idea that Lady Dustin is sort of a Dustin by birth anyway, that certainly does work, although it runs into this problem: would the Starks permit two of the bigger houses in the North, especially two whose lands adjoin, to consolidate their power like that? It seems like preventing any of their vassals from getting too powerful, either to threaten the Starks or to worry the other vassals, is a priority in the Hornwood situation. And long-term, keeping your vassals from getting too powerful is a great way to hold onto power, and the Starks have been holding on to power for a ludicrously long time.

Hornwood land and Manderly land abuts and those two families had marriages in this generation. There might be some other examples but I don't think the Starks would have much of an issue with it unless one or more of the parties had been actively disloyal

[Lady Blizzardborn]

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

To the question of why did Ned allow Lady D to remain the head of House Dustin...I say GUILT.   Ned had remorse for not returning Willem's bones after Barbery laid bloody hell into him.  For bringing a damned horse back instead of Willem himself.   

Now then, with tin foil firmly affixed to my pointy head try this on...It seems to be a popular idea that Benjen Stark was in on the Rhaegar + Lyanna affair.  What if it was actually Brandon who came to learn or was in fact complicit in Lyanna's er plans with Rhaegar?  What if he mentioned this during pillow talk after sword fighting with Barbery?   Guilt may not motivate so well as blackmail, after all.   

I don't recall Brandon ever having been fostered out.   Could be everyone but Ned knew about Lyanna's plan. 

Then it was really stupid of him to ad lib going to KL screaming for Rhaegar's head just to cover his tracks.

If you mean Brandon, brother of Ned, yes he was. He was fostered with Lord Ryswell. That's how he and Barbrey came to be so "close."

[Curled Finger]

27 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Then it was really stupid of him to ad lib going to KL screaming for Rhaegar's head just to cover his tracks.

If you mean Brandon, brother of Ned, yes he was. He was fostered with Lord Ryswell. That's how he and Barbrey came to be so "close."

Not necessarily.   If Brandon brother of Ned was in on it he could have gone to collect his hush prize or save face in front of Robert Baratheon at Kings Landing.  I'm still working on how to spin the fostering!   

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Not necessarily.   If Brandon brother of Ned was in on it he could have gone to collect his hush prize or save face in front of Robert Baratheon at Kings Landing.  I'm still working on how to spin the fostering!   

Collecting a hush prize doesn't require committing treason in the home of a king known to be insane. Nor does saving face in front of Robert. Brandon was acting on his own there and being a total dumbass. Hot-headed, impulsive, wolf-blooded.