Let's speculate wildly about Lady Dustin

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Why? What suggestion is there in the text that she is the mother of Heke, aka Reek? 

For real? 

Can you please point to anything in the text that suggests Eddard dislike the most recent Lord of Barrow Hall? 

Does she truly hate maesters? Or does she suspect their motives? 

Or is she just doing a number on Theon?

 

1 hour ago, acwill07 said:

As for #13, Ned clearly says that his "friends" rode with him to the TOJ.  He clearly liked her husband.

The Dowager Duchess of Grantham might disagree.

[Luddagain]

Lady Blizzard

 

Yes quite right - but I was thinking of Barb's teats

 

The twin thing is just speculation because the names are so similar - Bethany and Barbrey - so for sure it is not a certain thing -  pretty irrelevant anyway.

 

Lost M

I have not got the details but i am sure that at one point Theon notices her laugh (or smile) is just like Ramsay

No particular reason re Reek the boy/young  man. I sort of assume he was a Ramsay son or part of the family, given he had access to Roose's wife's bedroom.

The whole Bolton family is a bit of a mystery.

My No 12 was a question not a statement.  i think there is a parallel between blackfish and Lady Dustin, but I am not sure why.   Blackfish's refusal to marry seems odd - unless he is already married, sworn to some sort of brotherhood, or so rampantly gay that he could not marry.  Ditto Lady Dustin. 15 years of mourning seems a bit too long.

In my 13  I am noting that Ned describes all the other friends generally with warmth, eg gentle Ryswell, little Crannogman, proud Martin.  it certainly is not much to go on, but I just have a sense that Dustin in not as close to Ned as some of the others.

Does she not call the maesters grey rats. not exctly endearing.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

29 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

Lady Blizzard

 

Yes quite right - but I was thinking of Barb's teats

 

The twin thing is just speculation because the names are so similar - Bethany and Barbrey - so for sure it is not a certain thing -  pretty irrelevant anyway.

 

Lost M

I have not got the details but i am sure that at one point Theon notices her laugh (or smile) is just like Ramsay

No particular reason re Reek the boy/young  man. I sort of assume he was a Ramsay son or part of the family, given he had access to Roose's wife's bedroom.

The whole Bolton family is a bit of a mystery.

My No 12 was a question not a statement.  i think there is a parallel between blackfish and Lady Dustin, but I am not sure why.   Blackfish's refusal to marry seems odd - unless he is already married, sworn to some sort of brotherhood, or so rampantly gay that he could not marry.  Ditto Lady Dustin. 15 years of mourning seems a bit too long.

In my 13  I am noting that Ned describes all the other friends generally with warmth, eg gentle Ryswell, little Crannogman, proud Martin.  it certainly is not much to go on, but I just have a sense that Dustin in not as close to Ned as some of the others.

Does she not call the maesters grey rats. not exctly endearing.

 

Please let me know when you have got the details and have a particular reason. 

[Luddagain]

Lady B

It will take some time as I do not intend doing a paper search. i am sure there are many others who recall the comment re lady Dustin being like Ramsay (smile or laugh). It was probably in the crypt scene but not sure.

In any case no need to get huffy, since I think Dustin is a mystery and I am not sure what her story is. I was just noting things that need explaining.

[Lord Wraith]

Mel has a vision about Barrowtown with no Bolton banners. I will post it when I can find it.

Mel's vision:

Quote

The red priestess slid closer to the king. "I saw a town with wooden walls and wooden streets, filled with men. Banners flew above its walls: a moose, a battle-axe, three pine trees, longaxes crossed beneath a crown, a horse's head with fiery eyes."

"Hornwood, Cerwyn, Tallhart, Ryswell, and Dustin," supplied Ser Clayton Suggs. "Traitors, all. Lapdogs of the Lannisters."

VS what Reek/Theon sees when coming to Barrowtown.

Quote

Their short journey reached its end at the wooden walls of Barrow Hall. Banners flew from its square towers, flapping in the wind: the flayed man of the Dreadfort, the battle-axe of Cerwyn, Tallhart's pines, the merman of Manderly, old Lord Locke's crossed keys, the Umber giant and the stony hand of Flint, the Hornwood moose. For the Stouts, chevrony russet and gold, for Slate, a grey field within a double tressure white. Four horseheads proclaimed the four Ryswells of the Rills—one grey, one black, one gold, one brown. The jape was that the Ryswells could not even agree upon the color of their arms. Above them streamed the stag-and-lion of the boy who sat upon the Iron Throne a thousand leagues away.

Makes me wonder if Barbrey Dustin is thinking of a  possible Dustin/Ryswell restoration of the Barrow Kings of the North.  Or just keeping her options opens?

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 2/23/2017 at 3:04 AM, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

snip

Brandon probably gave her herpes. That's the real reason why she hates the Starks 

[Lord Wraith]

24 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Brandon probably gave her herpes. That's the real reason why she hates the Starks 

Har!

[Lost Melnibonean]

6 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Mel has a vision about Barrowtown with no Bolton banners. I will post it when I can find it.

Mel's vision:

VS what Reek/Theon sees when coming to Barrowtown.

Makes me wonder if Barbrey Dustin is thinking of a  possible Dustin/Ryswell restoration of the Barrow Kings of the North.  Or just keeping her options opens?

You omitted the preceding sentence...

Quote

"Have other lords declared for Bolton too?" 

It would have been silly if Melisandre had said Lord Bolton had declared for Bolton. 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

18 hours ago, Luddagain said:

...the sad boy Reek who smelled always of fish (this is a real condition if rare)

Must... resist... temptation... to make... inappropriate... joke...

Must... maintain... decorum... uergh!!! Phew, that was a close one.

[Lord Wraith]

15 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

You omitted the preceding sentence...

It would have been silly if Melisandre had said Lord Bolton had declared for Bolton. 

That's what I get for using the search of ice and fire. Missed the most important point derp.

I still considering it an interesting if not really likely possibility.

[Good Guy Garlan]

3 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

That's what I get for using the search of ice and fire. Missed the most important point derp.

I still considering it an interesting if not really likely possibility.

Oh, something's up with Barrowtown alright. I'm too lazy to look for the quotes but:

- In aGoT, Robert makes a big fuss about the barrows and says there are kings hiding under the snow or something like that. Wink wink, nudge nudge. 

- Also in aGoT, Umber says Stannis doesn't know anything about the Wall, the wolfswood, and the Barrows. Well, Stannis saved the Wall and crossed the wolfswood in the snow, in that order. All he's missing is a visit to the barrows. 

- In aDwD, Ramsay straight up threatens to burn Barrowtown to the ground. 

- There's also Mel's vision you quoted, which makes me wonder if she's seeing Barrowtown in the flames because it's gonna be important later on. 

My wild speculation:

Lady Dustin stabs Roose in the back and basically hands Winterfell to Stannis. Ramsay flees with his men and burns Barrowtown for her treason. Stannis feels compelled to ride there to finish Ramsay once and for all. Ramsay kills him there. Jon shows up. The Bastardbowl takes place there. 

[Seams]

10 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Oh, something's up with Barrowtown alright. I'm too lazy to look for the quotes but:

- In aGoT, Robert makes a big fuss about the barrows and says there are kings hiding under the snow or something like that. Wink wink, nudge nudge. 

- Also in aGoT, Umber says Stannis doesn't know anything about the Wall, the wolfswood, and the Barrows. Well, Stannis saved the Wall and crossed the wolfswood in the snow, in that order. All he's missing is a visit to the barrows. 

- In aDwD, Ramsay straight up threatens to burn Barrowtown to the ground. 

- There's also Mel's vision you quoted, which makes me wonder if she's seeing Barrowtown in the flames because it's gonna be important later on. 

My wild speculation:

Lady Dustin stabs Roose in the back and basically hands Winterfell to Stannis. Ramsay flees with his men and burns Barrowtown for her treason. Stannis feels compelled to ride there to finish Ramsay once and for all. Ramsay kills him there. Jon shows up. The Bastardbowl takes place there. 

I love all of this. Nice use of details to reach a logical conclusion. And there's something appropriate about a big battle taking place at the burial chambers of the First Men, especially if it involves a major character who has been dead.

I suspect that Barroq, the wildling skinchanger with the board, is a symbolic version of post-death Rob Stark. The story is that Barroq likes to hang out in the lichyard at Castle Black, which is a sign to me that he is another post-death character.

I can't help wondering whether Barrowtown and Moles Town are thematically linked, with barrows being burial chambers and Moles Town being mostly underground. If so, that might imply that there is buried treasure at Barrowtown. Maybe a sword? Maybe some lost women?

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 6:04 AM, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

@M_Tootles raised a good point on reddit: the childless widow Hornwood is expected to get married again, and quickly, and it's made plain that it's ultimately her liege lord's prerogative to choose the suitor. Nobody considers this arrangement to be particularly unusual in the Hornwood case, and yet when a similar situation occurred some 15 odd years previously, Lady Dustin was allowed to remain single.

Plainly, Ned never pressed the issue. The question is, why?

And let's consider some more interesting possibilities than "because Ned was nice", or "because Dustin and her brothers vetoed it". Ned may be nice, but he always places his duty first, and, if push comes to shove, the Ryswells and the Dustin smallfolk aren't going to rebel against Winterfell.

The Dustin lands appear to border, or at least sit near to, the lands of the Ryswells, the Tallharts, the Flints of Flint's Finger, and even the Manderlys and perhaps the Cerwyns. Lady Dustin is a Ryswell by birth and her only living relatives at the time of her husband's death were her brothers, and her sister, who was at one point married to Roose Bolton: their son served Lady Dustin for four years as a page. So we can see potential claims from the Ryswells and the Boltons, both of whom would be pleased to expand their demesnes; but just as in the Hornwood case, none of the other houses would be happy about their rivals growing so strong, and it might lead to war.

Perhaps Ned thought that the issue could be put off, since Lady Dustin was so young. But he's just seen half his family die over the course of a couple of years; if anybody should realise that things can change in the blink of an eye, it's Ned. (Contradicting this point is the fact that he let the only other adult Stark join the Night's Watch before his own sons had even survived their early, dangerous years.)

So what gives? Any fucking suggestions?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And while we're at it, let's put two and two together and see if we can't come up with five. Put on your tinfoil hats and 3D glasses, please, and let's check out some Lady Dustin quotes:

• ...if I so choose, I could be an inconvenience. Of course, Roose sees that too, so he takes care to keep me sweet.
• Lord Bolton aspires to more than mere lordship. Why not King of the North?
• If I were queen...

Queen, eh? Perhaps that's how he's going to keep her sweet. I mean, come on, there's certainly something interesting going on between those two.

And they do seem to have something in common. Here's Lady Dustin again:

If I were queen, the first thing I would do would be to kill all those grey rats.

Yes, Lady Dustin hates the maesters. But how does Roose feel about them?

• My old maester insisted it was a sign of sickness, yet the boy was otherwise as strong as a young bull.
• The maesters will tell you that King Jaehaerys abolished the lord's right to the first night to appease his shrewish queen, but where the old gods rule, old customs linger.
• A sickness of the bowels, Maester Uthor says, but I say poison.

The word "disdainful" springs to mind. And let's not forget that Roose made fast friends with Qyburn, a defrocked maester whose disdain for his old masters isn't a matter of conjecture.

Of course, Roose also makes use of the maesters as healers, and even Lady Dustin concedes that they do good medical work. But beyond that, perhaps there's a mutual antipathy towards this southron order interfering in the North.

And if Roose does aim to be king, then he'll need a queen - and having the Barrowlands and the Rills onside wouldn't hurt, either.

Edit: I actually quite want this to happen now. All hail King Roose and Queen Barbrey, the rightful rulers of winter!

Perhaps Eddard empathize with Barbery Dustin . Way too many people has jumped to the conclusion that , it wasn't Ned but Brandon who hook up with Ashara Dayne . What if it was Ned who was in love with Ashara and she him . Barbery loved Brandon ,but had ti settle with Willem Dustin ; just as Eddard loved Ashara , but had to settle with Catelyn .

[Lord Wraith]

On 2/28/2017 at 11:32 PM, Good Guy Garlan said:

Oh, something's up with Barrowtown alright. I'm too lazy to look for the quotes but:

- In aGoT, Robert makes a big fuss about the barrows and says there are kings hiding under the snow or something like that. Wink wink, nudge nudge. 

- Also in aGoT, Umber says Stannis doesn't know anything about the Wall, the wolfswood, and the Barrows. Well, Stannis saved the Wall and crossed the wolfswood in the snow, in that order. All he's missing is a visit to the barrows. 

- In aDwD, Ramsay straight up threatens to burn Barrowtown to the ground. 

- There's also Mel's vision you quoted, which makes me wonder if she's seeing Barrowtown in the flames because it's gonna be important later on. 

My wild speculation:

Lady Dustin stabs Roose in the back and basically hands Winterfell to Stannis. Ramsay flees with his men and burns Barrowtown for her treason. Stannis feels compelled to ride there to finish Ramsay once and for all. Ramsay kills him there. Jon shows up. The Bastardbowl takes place there. 

Interesting, I remember reading a theory that Stannis will use the ships they got a Deepwood Motte and have s a small group attack Barrowtown and burn it. This forces out the Dustin and Ryswell troops out of Winterfell.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

4 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Interesting, I remember reading a theory that Stannis will use the ships they got a Deepwood Motte and have s a small group attack Barrowtown and burn it. This forces out the Dustin and Ryswell troops out of Winterfell.

Someone's gotta burn it. You don't make a town out of wood unless you're getting to set it afire.

[Free Northman Reborn]

5 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Interesting, I remember reading a theory that Stannis will use the ships they got a Deepwood Motte and have s a small group attack Barrowtown and burn it. This forces out the Dustin and Ryswell troops out of Winterfell.

A bit of a pointless exercise. Theon says Ramsay has 6000-7000 troops at Winterfell.

Roose brought 4000 Northmen and 1500 Freys with him. That gives you 5500 already. Ramsay brought 600 more Bolton men from the Dreadfort, and Hother added another 400 Umbers, bringing the total to 6500 men. Manderly brought 300 soldiers, taking them to 6800. Add the various honor guards of the Lockes, Cerwyns, Slates and other assorted lords, and you probably get well above 7000 already.

Clearly the Dustins and Ryswells brought an absolutely minimal number of troops to Winterfell. Basically honor guards for their personal protection only. Going to all the effort of sneaking up and attacking a strongly defended Barrowton, only to divert a few hundred Dustin/Ryswell men at best from Ramsay's army is indeed a pointless effort.

[M_Tootles]

Oh shit, this is serendipitous. I came here to post a thing that relates to just this topic that I threw up on reddit today, look at my notifications, and find this. What I wanna know is, when did I say something about this previously on reddit? In a comment or something? I don't remember. Obviously I've thought about it for a while!

Anyway, there's some great shit in this thread. I have much more to say about this topic but keeping mum for now.

As I appended in the comments on reddit, here's my full analysis (with some spoilers for my tinfoil cut off at the beginning and end) of the parallel.

 

*************************

 

Might Barbrey Dustin in fact know that Willam is alive?

I think she might, simply because Barbrey doesn't remarry in 17 years. GRRM knows that modern sensibilities and ingrained belief in romantic clichés will let this slip past most readers' radars, but this is plainly abnormal accordingly to the actual text we have, especially given that Barbrey is a very young woman at the time. It "just so happens" we have the perfect test case demonstrating the aberrance of Lady Dustin's abiding situation: Donella Hornwood-née-Manderly, whose husband Lorn Hornwood dies in GOT leaving no direct heirs. There's even a coy reference to Barbrey hidden in her story. Lady Hornwood complains to Bran, Luwin and Ser Rodrik:

 

Quote

 

"[N]ow that my lord husband and my sweet son have gone to the gods, the Bastard looks at my lands hungrily."

…Ser Rodrik only said, "He may look, but should he do more I promise you there will be dire retribution. You will be safe enough, my lady … though perhaps in time, when your grief is passed, you may find it prudent to wed again."

"I am past my childbearing years, what beauty I had long fled," she replied with a tired half smile, "yet men come sniffing after me as they never did when I was a maid."

"You do not look favorably on these suitors?" asked Luwin.

"I shall wed again if His Grace commands it," Lady Hornwood replied, "but Mors Crowfood is a drunken brute, and older than my father. As for my noble cousin of Manderly, my lord's bed is not large enough to hold one of his majesty, and I am surely too small and frail to lie beneath him."

Bran knew that men slept on top of women when they shared a bed. Sleeping under Lord Manderly would be like sleeping under a fallen horse, he imagined. (COK B II)

 

 

Because that's a normal image everyone thinks of when picturing a fat person: "a fallen horse". No it's not. It's weird, and I think it's a signpost linking her situation with that of the horse-gifting Barbrey Dustin-née-Ryswell (of the Horse sigil). Continuing:

 

Quote

 

Ser Rodrik gave the widow a sympathetic nod. "You will have other suitors, my lady. We shall try and find you a prospect more to your taste."

"Perhaps you need not look very far, ser."

 

 

Rodrik gets embarrassed and the Lady leaves. Note: she is clearly, unequivocally attracted to him. Bran comments she looks sad, and Rodrik puts on a bow on the analogy to Barbrey:

 

Quote

 

Ser Rodrik nodded. "Sad and gentle, and not at all uncomely for a woman of her years, for all her modesty. Yet a danger to the peace of your brother's realm nonetheless."

"Her?" Bran said, astonished.

Maester Luwin answered. "With no direct heir, there are sure to be many claimants contending for the Hornwood lands. The Tallharts, Flints, and Karstarks all have ties to House Hornwood through the female line, and the Glovers are fostering Lord Harys's bastard at Deepwood Motte. The Dreadfort has no claim that I know, but the lands adjoin, and Roose Bolton is not one to overlook such a chance."

Ser Rodrik tugged at his whiskers. "In such cases, her liege lord must find her a suitable match." (COK BII)

 

 

If that's so, why hasn't Ned ordered Barbrey Dustin to remarry? Conventional explanations rest on squishy, anachronistic sentimentality: "He's guilty about her husband"; "She mourns her husband too much to remarry." Could Lord Paramount Eddard Stark seriously afford to let his guilt (over an ordinary event of war) and/or his empathy (for a widow's supposedly unwavering devotion to a husband she barely knew) keep him from ensuring there is peace and stability after Barbrey dies? Not according to Luwin and Ser Rodrik, who debate not whether but which Lord the widow Hornwood will be ordered to marry:

 

Quote

"It may come down to practicalities," said Maester Luwin. "Which lord he most needs to court. The riverlands are part of his realm, he may wish to cement the alliance by wedding Lady Hornwood to one of the lords of the Trident. A Blackwood, perhaps, or a Frey—"

 

Sure, one can rationalize that in the case of Barrowton Ned made a special exception and ruled that Lady Dustin need not remarry and that one of her Ryswell brothers or some Dustin cousin or House Stout will inherit Barrowton upon her death, but the very presence of all those options shows that the situation is analogously muddy and perilous and that, barring explanation, the discrepancy in how the situations are handled is glaring, particularly when Bran's odd reference to a sleeping horse suggests there is "something to see here".

The utter irrelevance of Lady Hornwood's expressed attraction to Rodrik only drives home the fact that such matters are serious business of a sort Ned's advisers can't imagine allowing to lie fallow and in which sentiment cannot rule:

 

Quote

 

"Why can't you marry her?" Bran asked. "You said she was comely, and Beth would have a mother."

The old knight put a hand on Bran's arm. "A kindly thought, my prince, but I am only a knight, and besides too old. I might hold her lands for a few years, but as soon as I died Lady Hornwood would find herself back in the same mire, and Beth's prospects might be perilous as well."

 

 

Do we perhaps get to the nut of Barbrey's true grievance with Ned—if indeed she has one—here?

 

Quote

 

"Then let Lord Hornwood's bastard be the heir," Bran said, thinking of his half brother Jon.

Ser Rodrik said, "That would please the Glovers, and perhaps Lord Hornwood's shade as well, but I do not think Lady Hornwood would love us. The boy is not of her blood."

"Still," said Maester Luwin, "it must be considered. Lady Donella is past her fertile years, as she said herself. If not the bastard, who?"

 

 

**************************

Obviously I go on to speculate that Willam has a bastard that Barbrey Dustin's aware of.

 

Hope you've been well, @Illyrio Mo'Parties

[Seams]

2 hours ago, M_Tootles said:

Anyway, there's some great shit in this thread. I have much more to say about this topic but keeping mum for now.

As I appended in the comments on reddit, here's my full analysis (with some spoilers for my tinfoil cut off at the beginning and end) of the parallel.

Come on! We want tinfoil!

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Thanks bud

Keep slayin' them dragons

[Lord Wraith]

On 3/14/2017 at 3:35 AM, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Someone's gotta burn it. You don't make a town out of wood unless you're getting to set it afire.

Indeed.