Weddings, Lightbringer, Animal Familiars, and Character Arcs

[LmL]

9 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

That someone is yours truly!  Except I said the throne was the thorns (after Seams' thorn/throne pun) with the greenseer as the bloom on the briar.

got it. That's a nice one

[LmL]

2 hours ago, Unchained said:

There is one thing I wanted your thoughts on, the stuff at the end of my last post.  At the Tommen/Margaery wedding there is a pyromancer with a dozen archers.  That looks like last hero math and they are helping with the ceremony in question.  Are the last hero and his disciples the AA people on the Isle of faces watching over the pact in your opinion?  That makes some sense if they were behind the pact and/or long night ending that they would watch over it.  

I cannot find the post your are talking about for the life of me. Link? Sounds interesting.

[GloubieBoulga]

10 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

You think they were possessed by greenseers as a form of resuscitation?  I have been having an argument with Dorian over on @Cowboy Dan's thread on 'light warging' about such subtle forms of greenseer possession.  He contends it's impossible for someone to be possessed by a greenseer without realising it.

I think it depends of the circumstances : Brienne and Tyrion both have a moment where their soul is separated from the body :

- Tyrion XV, ACOK :

Quote

He dreamed of a cracked stone ceiling and the smells of blood and shit and burnt flesh. The air was full of acrid smoke.

That's the reality : he is with others corpses, as the maester says him further : "when we found you down in that cellar among the dead and dying"

But during the dream : 

Quote

He found himself outside the city, walking through a world without color. (...)  At first there was no sound in the world (yes, without being totally connected to his own corpse, he just can't normally hear), but after a time he began to hear the voices of the dead, soft and terrible (voices of the dead, not the living people : here we can wonder if a greenseer is yet in his body to help to keep it in life, and if the faculty of hearing "consciously" the dead come from the contact with the soul of the greenseer. Or if the soul is able to hear other souls when they passed from life to death - or very near). They wept and moaned, they begged for an end to pain, they cried for help and wanted their mothers. Tyrion had never known his mother. He wanted Shae, but she was not there. He walked alone amidst grey shadows, trying to remember  (god damned ! wher is my memory ? where is my body's memory ?. . . 

(...)

So many dead, so very many. Their corpses hung limply, their faces slack or stiff or swollen with gas, unrecognizable, hardly human. The garments the sisters took from them were decorated with black hearts, grey lions, dead flowers, and pale ghostly stags. Their armor was all dented and gashed, the chainmail riven, broken, slashed. Why did I kill them all? He had known once, but somehow he had forgotten.

He would have asked one of the silent sisters, but when he tried to speak he found he had no mouth (The same than to be unable to "hear"). Smooth seamless skin covered his teeth (hey, another teeth's story ^^). The discovery terrified him. How could he live without a mouth? He began to run. The city was not far. He would be safe inside the city, away from all these dead. He did not belong with the dead. He had no mouth, but he was still a living man. No, a lion, a lion, and alive. But when he reached the city walls, the gates were shut against him.

 Just after, he "wakes again" (those are the words = "he woke again"), but this time in his own body : he can see and feel the room and the bed where he lies. 

So, the hypothesis is that the possession by a greenseer was during this separating moment of the soul and the body : it wasn't a "rape" like Hodor or Thistle, and Tyrion was also too weak to feel that. The greenseer doesn't communicate with Tyrion's soul here, he is just present to keep him in life, and perhaps forces the soul to come back in the body at the end. I am tempted to link the final panic run with the end of Bran's coma, when the Crow is beating Bran, apparently trying to hurt him (and oppen the 3rd eye) because whithout conscious training, Bran's soul risks to never come back in Bran's body. 

- Brienne now : 

Quote

Biter's mouth tore free, full of blood and flesh. He spat, grinned, and sank his pointed teeth into her flesh again. This time he chewed and swallowed. He is eating me, she realized, but she had no strength left to fight him any longer. She felt as if she were floating above herself, watching the horror as if it were happening to some other woman, to some stupid girl who thought she was a knight. It will be finished soon, she told herself. Then it will not matter if he eats me. (Brienne VII AFFC)

By the way, just after, she seems to be back in her body and being able to see Biter's mouth like a whole, and the sword which kills him before being inconscious. I don't think to a greenseer possession at this moment, but I quoted it to show that Brienne's wounds are heavy and can cause her death (the soul is for an instant separated from the body). 

Now her "coma's" dream : 

 

Quote

 

Finally the doors opened, and her betrothed strode into her father's hall. She tried to greet him as she had been instructed, only to have blood come pouring from her mouth. She had bitten her tongue off as she waited. She spat it at the young knight's feet, and saw the disgust on his face. "Brienne the Beauty," he said in a mocking tone. "I have seen sows more beautiful than you." He tossed the rose in her face. As he walked away, the griffins on his cloak rippled and blurred and changed to lions. Jaime! she wanted to cry. Jaime, come back for me! But her tongue lay on the floor by the rose, drowned in blood.

Brienne woke suddenly, gasping.

 

 

Here, Brienne was weakened by her wounds and her fever, but it seems this dream is a "green" dream, I mean like was Jaime's dream in ASOS, when he slept on a weirwood's stock. The cut tongue seems for me a stranger element in the rest of the dream, and there is also the "mocking" tone : mocking is very coherent with Ronnet Connington, and also with Jaime who mocked the "wench" during all the escape from Riverrun : as the two characters are mixing each other in the dream, there could be no question. But the "mocking" is also a strong characteristic of the Crow, I think his cruel part as it appears with the mocking eye of Euron, or during the marriage between fake Arya and Ramsay at Winterfell (with also the weirwood who is laughing at the same time)

 

As I'm turned back to the wedding's theme : 

10 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

A secret wanted wedding, like perhaps Rhaegar and Lyanna -- or a public unwanted wedding, like Ramsay and FArya (Jeyne Poole) in which even the weirwood tree is presented using a 'rape trope':

I think both ^^

In fact, I think there was a wanted wedding between a maid and the "bastard" character, but the maid was officialy promised to a bear/summer king (half brother of the bastard), and after the death of the "bear", was married to the last brother : the wolf character (= the actuals Stark). 

I think also that the "crow character" (the second brother) had surprised the bastard and the maid secret, like Bran at the beginning sees Jaime and Cersei, or like this (with or without the symbol of the comet - very good to remind Tyrion surprising Shae-moon with the father-sun) : 

10 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I'm sure @LmL can dissect the mythical astronomy aspects of the scene better than I can.  I would have thought Tyrion played the role of 'naughty greenseer' starting out from his 'imprisonment' in the 'hollow hill' represented by the Red Keep dungeon, then, unchained, ascending to wreak havoc, punching a hole in the ceiling=celestial dome, as it were, via the secret trapdoor in the hearth; and then playing the role of 'comet' first bringing down a moon (Shae) which always explodes, undergoing a color change from fiery red to burnt-out black; and secondly proceeding to darkening a sun (Tywin).  Had Shae not been there (the moon wandering too close to the sun), it's possible Tyrion may not have been emotionally roused to kill Tywin.  The sun suffered by its conjunction with the moon (a bit like Rhaegar's conjunction with Lyanna, which led to the horned lord Robert killing him).  In the Tywin-Shae scenario, Tyrion is the horned lord with his greenseer imagery (the capering fool imagery is greenseer imagery...remember Patchface's 'clever bird, clever man, clever fool') as well as the fact that he has literally been cuckolded (i.e. 'given horns') by Tywin and Shae in their traitorous tryst.  The greenseer-controlled comet and the moon wrestle, culminating in the moon's death and unleashing the fired-up comet from the encounter, who goes on to poison the sun (who is not the 'son' but the father, ha ha...)

The interesting thing, here, is that Tyrion plays very more often the part of the "bastard" (I wonder if Daenerys won't play this part too, when she will reach Westeros, especially if Young Griff is already on the throne with Arianne, presenting himself as Aegon VI trueborn). As is there were an alternative scenario where the Maid was not secretly in love with the bastard but with the bear/summer king. Or perhaps this alternative scenario expresses the angry and the revenge of the "bastard's soul", feeling betrayed by the final wedding between the Maid and the Wolf-character (= the predator/hunter, like the lion also is)

 

10 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Later on, Tyrion significantly muses that some part of himself died in King's Landing, leaving only his vengeful 'revenant' -- a revenant is something or someone that returns, with ghostly connotations of 'haunting' someone, s

I had read "hunting" first, before seeing "haunting". What a so true wordplay !

@Seams : About haunting/hunting and the bells, I don't know if this is the case in the anglophone imagery, but in France, the Wild Hunt is accompagnied with huge noises : dogs, horses, horns, but almost bells ringing (the writer George Sand wrote about it and kept the memory of this oral culture which has now quite disappeared in France. Wild hunts aren't as popular are they are in english culture, but they were, once). The bell make me also thinking to Robert's belly. 

 

 

Edit : about the hypothetical story between a maid promised/married to another but having a love affair with a "bastard character", both surprised by a "bird character", I have forgotten to mention one of my hypothesis : Arthur Dayne with Ashara, surprised/spied by Varys and his little birds, adn Varys using it to play against Rhaegar. 

[LmL]

@ravenous reader your mythical astronomy breakdown of Tyrion, Shae, and Tywin is right on the money. The only wrinkle is that after Tyrion the comet kills the Moon, he then becomes the moon meteor born from the Moon and comet. The comet and the falling lightbringer meteors share all the same symbolism, and the meteors are kind of an extension of the comet, like smaller comet children.  Soterion collides with Shay, turns her face dark, and then represents the moon meteor which kills the sun. It doesn't do that by flying into the Sun, but rather by landing on the ground and throwing up the dust and smoke which blots out the face of the Sun. Tyrians rise from the underworld of the black cells represents two things, therefore period it represents the greenseer climbing the Jacob's Ladder of weirdrasil to have a hand on the heavenly bodies, and it can also be seen as the smoke which Rises to kill the Sun, the Fist of the First Men symbol which Storms End also expresses. This idea is also repeated when Tyrion goes back down the shaft to the bottom, only to punch Jamie in the face. You could see that as the moon meteor Landing and throwing up the smoke and Ash which kills the Sun, right and his fat shiny face. In the mountain vs. The Viper and the Hammer of the waters episode, which I don't think you've read, I talked about this symbol a lot, and showed how the Oberyn vs. The mountain fight demonstrates it clearly. Oberyn's oily black Sunspear pins Gregor the moon Mountain that rides to the ground, but the smoking fist of the fallen moon rises up to smash the face of the sun. You'll note the oily sun spear, an obvious Comet and meteor symbol, has the shaft of ash wood which is left sticking up from the mountains body after the killing blow. That also shows the rising column of ash, and expresses the idea of an ash tree growing from the spot of the meteor impact which you have started to hit upon.

[Unchained]

15 hours ago, LmL said:

I'm open to being sold on this! I do think the Wall will coming down via meteor, so we will have that to deal with. 

I have a little more to pitch.  I think the quarrels that 'sprout' from Robb makes him into a tree, then he is killed in a sacrificial sort of way via sword to the heart and becomes a 'Grey Wind'.  So that is the previous lord of Winterfell going from tree to wind.  I see this as foreshadowing for Bran being sacrificed to become a 'divine wind' that blows away the dust and brings the summer.  I think that may be what his sudden waking from a dream to name his wolf is showing us.  I used the exact words 'divine wind' because that is what 'kamikaze' translates to.  There was once a huge invading Mongolian fleet under Kublai Khan that was going to attack Japan but was destroyed by several massive typhoons.  The suicide pilots of WW2 got there name from those storms and hoped to stop the Allied fleets.  Bran is already a pilot of sorts and if he sacrifices himself he would be a kamikaze and therefore a 'divine wind' that protects.           

[LmL]

13 minutes ago, Unchained said:

I have a little more to pitch.  I think the quarrels that 'sprout' from Robb makes him into a tree, then he is killed in a sacrificial sort of way via sword to the heart and becomes a 'Grey Wind'.  So that is the previous lord of Winterfell going from tree to wind.  I see this as foreshadowing for Bran being sacrificed to become a 'divine wind' that blows away the dust and brings the summer.  I think that may be what his sudden waking from a dream to name his wolf is showing us.  I used the exact words 'divine wind' because that is what 'kamikaze' translates to.  There was once a huge invading Mongolian fleet under Kublai Khan that was going to attack Japan but was destroyed by several massive typhoons.  The suicide pilots of WW2 got there name from those storms and hoped to stop the Allied fleets.  Bran is already a pilot of sorts and if he sacrifices himself he would be a kamikaze and therefore a 'divine wind' that protects.           

OOOh, that's tasty. I bet @ravenous reader will like the sound of that. 

[ravenous reader]

On 3/5/2017 at 5:04 PM, LmL said:

On 3/5/2017 at 4:50 PM, Unchained said:

I have a little more to pitch.  I think the quarrels that 'sprout' from Robb makes him into a tree, then he is killed in a sacrificial sort of way via sword to the heart and becomes a 'Grey Wind'.  So that is the previous lord of Winterfell going from tree to wind.  I see this as foreshadowing for Bran being sacrificed to become a 'divine wind' that blows away the dust and brings the summer.  I think that may be what his sudden waking from a dream to name his wolf is showing us.  I used the exact words 'divine wind' because that is what 'kamikaze' translates to.  There was once a huge invading Mongolian fleet under Kublai Khan that was going to attack Japan but was destroyed by several massive typhoons.  The suicide pilots of WW2 got there name from those storms and hoped to stop the Allied fleets.  Bran is already a pilot of sorts and if he sacrifices himself he would be a kamikaze and therefore a 'divine wind' that protects.           

OOOh, that's tasty. I bet @ravenous reader will like the sound of that. 

There is a precedent for becoming a wind, found -- where else -- in @evita mgfs's classic thread:

and Varamyr's prologue:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

Abomination. Was that her, or him, or Haggon? He never knew. His old flesh fell back into the snowdrift as her fingers loosened. The spearwife twisted violently, shrieking. His shadowcat used to fight him wildly, and the snow bear had gone half-mad for a time, snapping at trees and rocks and empty air, but this was worse. "Get out, get out!" he heard her own mouth shouting. Her body staggered, fell, and rose again, her hands flailed, her legs jerked this way and that in some grotesque dance as his spirit and her own fought for the flesh. She sucked down a mouthful of the frigid air, and Varamyr had half a heartbeat to glory in the taste of it and the strength of this young body before her teeth snapped together and filled his mouth with blood. She raised her hands to his face. He tried to push them down again, but the hands would not obey, and she was clawing at his eyes. Abomination, he remembered, drowning in blood and pain and madness. When he tried to scream, she spat their tongue out.

The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes. Then both were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind. He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak. A horned owl flew silently between his trees, hunting a hare; Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything that's in it, he thought, exulting. A hundred ravens took to the air, cawing as they felt him pass. A great elk trumpeted, unsettling the children clinging to his back. A sleeping direwolf raised his head to snarl at empty air. Before their hearts could beat again he had passed on, searching for his own, for One Eye, Sly, and Stalker, for his pack. His wolves would save him, he told himself.

That was his last thought as a man.

@Wizz-The-Smith: this might dovetail with your ideas about the Sidhe actually being in the wind -- which raises the question of how the Starks are related to the Others, who seem to extinguish the wind at will?!

[Wizz-The-Smith]

11 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

@Wizz-The-Smith: this might dovetail with your ideas about the Sidhe actually being in the wind -- which raises the question of how the Starks are related to the Others, who seem to extinguish the wind at will?!

Thanks RR. 

Hi @Unchained, cool thread and I love the Robb-tree-Grey 'Wind' link, great work.  As RR mentioned I've recently stumbled upon some interesting information researching the hollow hills/Sidhe/wind connection.  The godlike Tuatha De Dannan/Sidhe in Celtic myth are very much like our human greenseers, they were humans with supernatural powers, seers, shape-shifters and lived extremely long lives dwelling in their hollow hills. 

It was also said the Sidhe could inhabit the wind and be seen by passers by in the rustling leaves, an inhabited godlike or divine wind.  In fact I think George is using the different meanings for the word Sidhe in Old Irish cleverly, all of which can be related to the old gods/CotF/greenseers and wind.  

I still have to research this further but here are some thoughts on the matter I posted in the Bran wind thread.     

Sidhe as hollow hills

Searching the mythology of hollow hills I found they are directly linked to Celtic myth in that they are another name for the Sidhe [or Sidhe mounds] that the Tuatha De Dannan retreated into after invasion by the Milesians.  We have only visited two hollow hills in the series, both associated with CotF and human greenseers, so I was pleased to note the other uses of the word Sidhe in connection to this...  

The Sidhe as CotF

The Sidhe are also often thought of as the ‘Faery folk of the mounds’, or small people dressed in green living in their hills etc.  There is obviously a connection to be made with the CotF here.  However, the small faery or Fey image a lot of people have of the Sidhe isn’t always the case in Irish lore.   

The Sidhe as human greenseers

The Sidhe of Irish myth [or the Tuatha De Dannan] were different in that they had gods living amongst them, human gods.  These human gods had supernatural powers, lived extremely long lives but could still be killed as mortals, and they too also lived in the hollow hills.  There are tales of these Sidhe being shapeshifters and seers as well.  Again it seems reasonable to make a connection with the human greenseers in asoiaf.    

So the word Sidhe seems to be associated with the hollow hills, and alludes to the CotF and human greenseers, but it doesn’t stop there.  In her awesome Brans powers thread  @evita mgfs noted very early on that the word ‘gust’ seemed like a clue for us readers to look out for a presence in the wind. 

Sidhe meaning wind or gust  

The word Sídhe can also be translated in Old Irish as ‘wind or gust’ and the godlike Sidhe have much to do with the wind.  They inhabit and journey in the whirling winds and when the country people see the leaves whirling on the road they bless themselves, because they believe the Sidhe to be passing by. 

Then of course there is George straight out comparing the Others to something like 'the Sidhe made of ice'. 

I shall return, it's late here.  Cheers Unchained. 

[LmL]

1 minute ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Thanks RR. 

Hi @Unchained, cool thread and I love the Robb-tree-Grey 'Wind' link, great work.  As RR mentioned I've recently stumbled upon some interesting information researching the hollow hills/Sidhe/wind connection.  The godlike Tuatha De Dannan/Sidhe in Celtic myth are very much like our human greenseers, they were humans with supernatural powers, seers, shape-shifters and lived extremely long lives dwelling in their hollow hills. 

It was also said the Sidhe could inhabit the wind and be seen by passers by in the rustling leaves, an inhabited godlike or divine wind.  In fact I think George is using the different meanings for the word Sidhe in Old Irish cleverly, all of which can be related to the old gods/CotF/greenseers and wind.  

I still have to research this further but here are some thoughts on the matter I posted in the Bran wind thread.     

Sidhe as hollow hills

Searching the mythology of hollow hills I found they are directly linked to Celtic myth in that they are another name for the Sidhe [or Sidhe mounds] that the Tuatha De Dannan retreated into after invasion by the Milesians.  We have only visited two hollow hills in the series, both associated with CotF and human greenseers, so I was pleased to note the other uses of the word Sidhe in connection to this...  

The Sidhe as CotF

The Sidhe are also often thought of as the ‘Faery folk of the mounds’, or small people dressed in green living in their hills etc.  There is obviously a connection to be made with the CotF here.  However, the small faery or Fey image a lot of people have of the Sidhe isn’t always the case in Irish lore.   

The Sidhe as human greenseers

The Sidhe of Irish myth [or the Tuatha De Dannan] were different in that they had gods living amongst them, human gods.  These human gods had supernatural powers, lived extremely long lives but could still be killed as mortals, and they too also lived in the hollow hills.  There are tales of these Sidhe being shapeshifters and seers as well.  Again it seems reasonable to make a connection with the human greenseers in asoiaf.    

So the word Sidhe seems to be associated with the hollow hills, and alludes to the CotF and human greenseers, but it doesn’t stop there.  In her awesome Brans powers thread  @evita mgfs noted very early on that the word ‘gust’ seemed like a clue for us readers to look out for a presence in the wind. 

Sidhe meaning wind or gust  

The word Sídhe can also be translated in Old Irish as ‘wind or gust’ and the godlike Sidhe have much to do with the wind.  They inhabit and journey in the whirling winds and when the country people see the leaves whirling on the road they bless themselves, because they believe the Sidhe to be passing by. 

Then of course there is George straight out comparing the Others to something like 'the Sidhe made of ice'. 

I shall return, it's late here.  Cheers Unchained. 

Wizz, you should take a look at @Crowfood's Daughter new thread about the Grey King and Garth, which expands upon the relationship between the greenseers and the powers attributed to the 'Storm God.' Lots of overlap with your standard ideas as well as your comment above. She's even found a new hollow hill for you! 

I have to say I love all this wind research, because wind is in fact that only way to get rid of the real cause of the Long Night, according to the mythical astronomy theory: smoke and ash from a meteor impact which clouds the sky. I think I have made a very strong case for the Hammer of the Waters being a moon meteor called down by naughty greenseers, so if the wind powers are what we need to fix the Long Night, that means the greenseers hold the cause and the cure, which makes a ton of sense. FWIW, I think the naughty greenseers ceased to be greenseers as we think of them when they broke the moon - every indication is that there is some kind of fiery death and resurrection type of transformation that comes from possessing the fire of the gods, as you know. So it may be the original, non-defiled greenseers who have to clean up the mess of the naughty ones, something like that. 

[Unchained]

@LmL and @ravenous reader,

 

I expect if any of the 'Bran is a kamikaze pilot' stuff is correct we will be given a clue about it.  The Mongols are dead ringers for Dothraki in a lot of ways, (Khals vs. Khans) and if Dany manages to recruit any of them, as she has done in the tv show, to sail on the poison water we will be set up for an event similar to the first kamikaze typhoon event.  There may just be a storm, but I think it will come in the form of another person with potential kamikaze pilot symbolism who speaks of flying and may already have a degree of control over the wind, Euron.  I think he will attack them possibly during a storm and recreate the typhoon sinking the Mongols,

 

There is also the scene in the crypts I love where Shaggydog attacks maester Luwin.  I think Shaggydog represents the dark shadow cloud and Summer is Bran.  The torch falls at the feet of Brandon the statue and then Summer and Shaggy fight as giant shadows on the wall cast by the torch.  I believe that is Bran being set on fire to become a wind that can combat the dark cloud.  I really think that that scene will make sense as very important foreshadowing when we know the ending and I took my screen-name from the fact that Shaggy was supposed to be on a chain.              

[ravenous reader]

6 minutes ago, Unchained said:

@LmL and @ravenous reader,

 

I expect if any of the 'Bran is a kamikaze pilot' stuff is correct we will be given a clue about it.  The Mongols are dead ringers for Dothraki in a lot of ways, (Khals vs. Khans) and if Dany manages to recruit any of them, as she has done in the tv show, to sail on the poison water we will be set up for an event similar to the first kamikaze typhoon event.  There may just be a storm, but I think it will come in the form of another person with potential kamikaze pilot symbolism who speaks of flying and may already have a degree of control over the wind, Euron.  I think he will attack them         

Hi Unchained.  I guess I still like the idea of Bran crossing the ultimate 'poison water' sea -- of space -- to discharge his 'kamikaze mission', but I can see your scenario working out in the 'mundane' realm.  After all, Euron is a kind of 'Anti-Bran' as many have noted!

[Unchained]

On 3/5/2017 at 9:34 PM, ravenous reader said:

Hi Unchained.  I guess I still like the idea of Bran crossing the ultimate 'poison water' sea -- of space -- to discharge his 'kamikaze mission', but I can see your scenario working out in the 'mundane' realm.  After all, Euron is a kind of 'Anti-Bran' as many have noted!

Even if everything I just said happens exactly the way I said it would, I still don't think that will be the whole story.  After being in Grey Wind, Robb either symbolically or perhaps actually becomes Lady Stoneheart.  Varamyr is on a cold wind, but lands in a wolf.  Drogo's smoky stallion  mirrors the one he gives Dany after which the thinks him for 'the wind', however the result is dragons and Drogo's becoming the comet.  The smoke of the burning wooden gods on Dragonstone  (first line of the chapter) produce Stannis' Lightbringer.  I think these windy middlemen are important, but they are middlemen still.  If Bran is a wind at any point it will serve as his transportation to something more according to the way I see it.  

 

What I am trying to say is I think we are in agreement.  

[ravenous reader]

On 3/8/2017 at 8:21 AM, Unchained said:

Even if everything I just said happens exactly the way I said it would, I still don't think that will be the whole story.  After being in Grey Wind, Robb either symbolically or perhaps actually becomes Lady Stoneheart.  Varamyr is on a cold wind, but lands in a wolf.  Drogo's smoky stallion  mirrors the one he gives Dany after which the thinks him for 'the wind', however the result is dragons and Drogo's becoming the comet.  The smoke of the burning wooden gods on Dragonstone  (first line of the chapter) produce Stannis' Lightbringer.  I think these windy middlemen are important, but they are middlemen still.  If Bran is a wind at any point it will serve as his transportation to something more according to the way I see it.  

 

What I am trying to say is I think we are in agreement.  

Indeed we are in agreement; and your ideas have added to and enriched the discussion!  Specifically, whereas we've identified the presence of plenty of greenseers in the wind previously -- e.g. on Evita's thread which I quoted for you above -- what makes your idea novel is combining the wind with the burning and the smoke symbolism-- i.e. Lightbringer/Azor Ahai born in smoke as greenseer...

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

The Cinnamon Wind was a swan ship out of Tall Trees Town on the Summer Isles, where men were black, women were wanton, and even the gods were strange. She had no septon aboard her to lead them in the prayers of passing, so the task fell to Samwell Tarly, somewhere off the sun-scorched southern coast of Dorne.

Sam donned his blacks to say the words, though the afternoon was warm and muggy, with nary a breath of wind. "He was a good man," he began . . . but as soon as he had said the words he knew that they were wrong. "No. He was a great man. A maester of the Citadel, chained and sworn, and Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch, ever faithful. When he was born they named him for a hero who had died too young, but though he lived a long long time, his own life was no less heroic. No man was wiser, or gentler, or kinder. At the Wall, a dozen lords commander came and went during his years of service, but he was always there to counsel them. He counseled kings as well. He could have been a king himself, but when they offered him the crown he told them they should give it to his younger brother. How many men would do that?" Sam felt the tears welling in his eyes, and knew he could not go on much longer. "He was the blood of the dragon, but now his fire has gone out. He was Aemon Targaryen. And now his watch is ended."

Note that ones fire going out is synonymous with death.  Also, although they are on board a 'swan ship' called the 'Cinnamon Wind,' on the day of Maester Aemon's death there is 'nary a breath of wind,' as if the wind died with him.  Thus, the fire, the wind, and the breath -- LIFE -- are linked.  So, in order to produce these 'windy middlemen' you've suggested are indispensable in the pursuit of immortality -- which in your equation may be fulfilled by smoke -- it's important to keep the fire burning, which produces smoke.  Accordingly, in a lot of these Lightbringer-forging scenes there is often a lot of wind- or breath- action fanning the fire, e.g. the word 'bellowing' conjuring a smith's bellows (e.g. Joffrey's death, Sam ascending the well in the Nightfort).  Significantly, the characters will often take huge gasps of air, as if coming up from under water, having fought through a near-drowning (my metaphor for greenseeing) episode (e.g. in Varamyr's prologue which I'll be discussing below, he takes a huge breath of air just after entering Thistle; or in Bran's would-be assassination attempt, which I'd also like to attempt to unpack, Catelyn takes a deep breath after almost being killed).

With these symbolic connections in mind, therefore, in Varamyr's Prologue when he panics at the thought of his fire going out, there is a double meaning at work.  He's really terrified of dying without such a middleman or medium he can use as a vehicle to transport him into his next life, hence his relief when Thistle returns.  She is to be the wood which he intends burning in order to fuel his journey. Notice his 'hoarse' voice cracking or 'croaking' as if he's running out of air, like a fire which also requires oxygen in order to sustain itself by burning.  Indeed, his own breath proves insufficient to fan the flames, and the 'smoke ceases to rise,' in spite of his attempts to blow upon the embers.  Someone else's breath will be required.  The sacrifice of another.

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A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

That was when he noticed that his fire had gone out.

Only a grey-and-black tangle of charred wood remained, with a few embers glowing in the ashes. There's still smoke, it just needs wood. Gritting his teeth against the pain, Varamyr crept to the pile of broken branches Thistle had gathered before she went off hunting, and tossed a few sticks onto the ashes. "Catch," he croaked. "Burn." He blew upon the embers and said a wordless prayer to the nameless gods of wood and hill and field.

The gods gave no answer. After a while, the smoke ceased to rise as well. Already the little hut was growing colder. Varamyr had no flint, no tinder, no dry kindling. He would never get the fire burning again, not by himself. "Thistle," he called out, his voice hoarse and edged with pain. "Thistle!"

Her chin was pointed and her nose flat, and she had a mole on one cheek with four dark hairs growing from it. An ugly face, and hard, yet he would have given much to glimpse it in the door of the hut. I should have taken her before she left. How long had she been gone? Two days? Three?

Varamyr was uncertain. It was dark inside the hut, and he had been drifting in and out of sleep, never quite sure if it was day or night outside. "Wait,"she'd said. "I will be back with food." So like a fool he'd waited, dreaming of Haggon and Bump and all the wrongs he had done in his long life, but days and nights had passed and Thistle had not returned. She won' t be coming back. Varamyr wondered if he had given himself away. Could she tell what he was thinking just from looking at him, or had he muttered in his fever dream?

Abomination, he heard Haggon saying. It was almost as if he were here, in this very room. "She is just some ugly spearwife," Varamyr told him. "I am a great man. I am Varamyr, the warg, the skinchanger, it is not right that she should live and I should die." No one answered. There was no one there.

Interestingly, after Thistle has done her 'grotesque song and dance' which frequently catalyses these greenseeing transactions (especially the more abominable Lightbringer forgings) and Varamyr is forcibly evicted from her body, he lands in a weirwood for a moment, before also being ejected from there -- and from the tree he enters the cold wind.

Note that the 'grotesque song and dance' Thistle does in order to fuel his rise into the elements resembles someone being burnt alive.  For example, Mance's scene in which he is being burnt in the cage includes the same gruesome 'song-and-dance' motif.  Both Thistle and Mance are 'fiery dancers'!  In keeping with the occasion being a symbolic wedding, there's also a prominent sexual trope (in this case 'rape' or some other illicit sexuality, e.g. the affair with the 'Dornishman's wife' which ends with someone losing their life).

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A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

He summoned all the strength still in him, leapt out of his own skin, and forced himself inside her.

Thistle arched her back and screamed.

Abomination. Was that her, or him, or Haggon? He never knew. His old flesh fell back into the snowdrift as her fingers loosened. The spearwife twisted violently, shrieking. His shadowcat used to fight him wildly, and the snow bear had gone half-mad for a time, snapping at trees and rocks and empty air, but this was worse. "Get out, get out!" he heard her own mouth shouting. Her body staggered, fell, and rose again, her hands flailed, her legs jerked this way and that in some grotesque dance as his spirit and her own fought for the flesh. She sucked down a mouthful of the frigid air, and Varamyr had half a heartbeat to glory in the taste of it and the strength of this young body before her teeth snapped together and filled his mouth with blood. She raised her hands to his face. He tried to push them down again, but the hands would not obey, and she was clawing at his eyes. Abomination, he remembered, drowning in blood and pain and madness. When he tried to scream, she spat their tongue out.

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

Jon watched unblinking. He dare not appear squeamish before his brothers. He had ordered out two hundred men, more than half the garrison of Castle Black. Mounted in solemn sable ranks with tall spears in hand, they had drawn up their hoods to shadow their faces … and hide the fact that so many were greybeards and green boys. The free folk feared the Watch. Jon wanted them to take that fear with them to their new homes south of the Wall.

The horn crashed amongst the logs and leaves and kindling. Within three heartbeats the whole pit was aflame. Clutching the bars of his cage with bound hands, Mance sobbed and begged. When the fire reached him he did a little dance. His screams became one long, wordless shriek of fear and pain. Within his cage, he fluttered like a burning leaf, a moth caught in a candle flame.

Jon found himself remembering a song.

Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done,

the Dornishman's taken my life,

But what does it matter, for all men must die,

and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!"

What do you think of the assassination attempt on Bran in which there is the dramatic burning of the library tower with all the fire and smoke?  Could this crucial scene be another candidate for a symbolic lightbringer forging/wedding?  As I've said before (particularly in that quote I provided you of Roose burning the book from which the spirits emerge turning the pages in the flames, as if reading and absorbing all the information with accelerated hunger), burning a book is akin to burning a tree (since books are made of paper from trees; and GRRM's trees like books 'remember,' thereby representing a cultural repository or library of sorts in which the greenseers are the archivists, librarians, readers and above all writers and singers -- so burning an old library is like burning a godswood).  

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A Clash of Kings - Arya X

Roose Bolton was seated by the hearth reading from a thick leatherbound book when she entered. "Light some candles," he commanded her as he turned a page. "It grows gloomy in here."

She placed the food at his elbow and did as he bid her, filling the room with flickering light and the scent of cloves. Bolton turned a few more pages with his finger, then closed the book and placed it carefully in the fire. He watched the flames consume it, pale eyes shining with reflected light. The old dry leather went up with a whoosh, and the yellow pages stirred as they burned, as if some ghost were reading them. "I will have no further need of you tonight," he said, never looking at her.

She should have gone, silent as a mouse, but something had hold of her. "My lord," she asked, "will you take me with you when you leave Harrenhal?"

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"Some books. I like the fighting stories. My sister Sansa likes the kissing stories, but those are stupid."

"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies," said Jojen. "The man who never reads lives only one. The singers of the forest had no books. No ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood."

Bran's eyes widened. "They're going to kill me?"

Assuming Bran is Lightbringer, then perhaps Catelyn struggling with the would-be assassin is engaged in a 'grotesque song and dance'?  Summer then also joins the 'dance' to bring proceedings to a close, with the spray of fresh red blood anointing Catelyn. It reminds me of the execution of the deserter in which the spray of blood 'like summerwine' sprayed across the snows, after which the direwolves were found -- death as the price for life.  Whose life?  Both Bran and Catelyn are the emergent survivors of the fray -- so one of them and/or both is the AA reborn.

Since there's no obvious wedding, the 'wedding' element must be more symbolic.  Together with Evita, we identified this scene as a holy Communion -- which is a wedding of sorts as the worshipper joins with the host, together with others who form a religious community.  Reflecting this wedding symbology, girls presenting themselves for the rite of their first communion wear a pristine-white wedding-type dress, symbolizing their 'marriage' to Jesus and the Church.   By partaking with Summer in the flesh of the attacker (analogous to the Communion wafer / body of god) and the blood (analogous to the Communion wine /blood of god), Catelyn enjoys communion with the wolf and becomes more wolfish.  After it's over, she's invigorated with renewed psychic and physical purpose and energy.  Perhaps Catelyn is the Lightbringer here?

In mythic astronomy terms, I suppose one might interpret the dagger-wielding assassin who was responsible for setting the fire as the ragged stranger, thief or red wanderer, comet-figure (just as Dany in the 'alchemical wedding' scene plays the comet role when she ignites the fire and in rather masculine phallic fashion 'thrusts' the burning brand into the wood of the pyre, basically another tower like the library).  At first Catelyn is relieved when she sees the fire is far away, thinking Bran will be safe.  However, by subsequently pitching up in Bran's bedchamber with the sharp point of a Valyrian steel dagger, the ragged stranger (i.e. comet) has in a figurative sense brought the fire to Bran (N.B. Vayrian steel is a form of 'frozen fire' the forging of which by all accounts is catalysed by blood sacrifice; the dragonbone hilt underscores the fire analogy).  The stranger keeps reiterating 'you weren't supposed to be here' to Catelyn -- which in mythic astronomy terms would equate to the unexpected positioning of the moon who wasn't supposed to wander so close to the sun (in the unexpected occurrence of the eclipse). As @Isobel Harper has suggested -- which spurred my renewed interest in this passage -- by putting herself between the assassin and Bran, Catelyn acted as the moon with Bran in the position of the sun.   This would also imply that the real target of the greenseers might have been the sun, not moon!

Catelyn takes a bite out of the assassin's hand, while he reciprocally injures hers in the struggle (the dagger bites into her hand just as she bites into his).  Since Catelyn actually ingests the man's flesh and blood, this corresponds to the moon ingesting the comet material somehow.  Catelyn is the fire moon and the comet in this case is not red but white, going by the symbolism of the man's 'gaunt' face 'pale eyes' and 'limp blond hair.'  ( @LmL -- what do you think?  You've been looking for some pale white sword symbolism...here we have a black-sword-wielding pale stranger, so if the Valyrian steel-dragonbone weapon is black, that makes the white component the pommel...the original comet as white pommel /  black sword...).  While the black sword penetrates her, the material ingested is the white pommel.  By the end of the violent encounter, the 'pommel' has been destroyed -- indeed, Summer all but decapitates him with the wound which takes out 'half his neck' -- with the 'sword' itself remaining.  Since the core of a comet is a ball of ice -- the 'head' of a comet corresponding with a sword's pommel -- with the tail of gas corresponding to the sword itself, that corresponds to the fire moon ingesting ice (symmetrical to the ice moon ingesting fire)?

If the stranger and Catelyn are engaged in the 'grotesque song and dance,' or 'perverted wedding', then what to make of Summer?  I would posit that Summer represents Bran and therefore the energy of the sun in the scene -- we've just been shown in the scene with Robb just before this one that Bran's heart is connected to the song of the wolves.  When Summer enters the chamber, the outside wolf becomes the inside wolf.  He enters the bedchamber just as he's able to enter the chambers of Bran's heart!  Perhaps he sensed Bran was in trouble?  The direwolves were the only creatures who stopped howling when the fire started, almost as if they were paying close attention to something else -- the real threat.  So Summer acts as the grey, smoky-silver psychopomp, wind element in the scene.  Besides being psychopomps, the direwolves can be thought of both as smiths and midwives in the Lightbringer creation, when conceived as sword forging and a baby's delivery respectively.  That's why the climax of the scene is accompanied by the dramatic shower of blood (meteor shower or blood accompanying the delivery of a baby).  Thus, Summer leaps out from nowhere like a solar wind, solar flare, or other solar eruption!  A solar wind is known for buffetting a comet's tail in a direction away from the sun (which might translate, admittedly with a bit of a stretch of the imagination, to the wolf averting the attack on Bran by directing the pointy end of the comet (i.e. the tail) away from the sun=Bran.  (Bran is the inverted solar figure here, the sun eclipsed by his mother the moon casting a shadow over him, as well as the shadow cast by the coma and comet, by which he can be seen as 'half-dead' already).  Harry Potter may be 'the boy who lived'; Bran is the boy who should be dead.

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys II

And last of all, Khal Drogo brought forth his own bride gift to her. An expectant hush rippled out from the center of the camp as he left her side, growing until it had swallowed the whole khalasar. When he returned, the dense press of Dothraki gift-givers parted before him, and he led the horse to her.

She was a young filly, spirited and splendid. Dany knew just enough about horses to know that this was no ordinary animal. There was something about her that took the breath away. She was grey as the winter sea, with a mane like silver smoke.

Hesitantly she reached out and stroked the horse's neck, ran her fingers through the silver of her mane. Khal Drogo said something in Dothraki and Magister Illyrio translated. "Silver for the silver of your hair, the khal says."

She's beautiful," Dany murmured.

"She is the pride of the khalasar," Illyrio said. "Custom decrees that the khaleesi must ride a mount worthy of her place by the side of the khal."

Drogo stepped forward and put his hands on her waist. He lifted her up as easily as if she were a child and set her on the thin Dothraki saddle, so much smaller than the ones she was used to. Dany sat there uncertain for a moment. No one had told her about this part. "What should I do?" she asked Illyrio.

It was Ser Jorah Mormont who answered. "Take the reins and ride. You need not go far."

Nervously Dany gathered the reins in her hands and slid her feet into the short stirrups. She was only a fair rider; she had spent far more time traveling by ship and wagon and palanquin than by horseback. Praying that she would not fall off and disgrace herself, she gave the filly the lightest and most timid touch with her knees.

Nervously Dany gathered the reins in her hands and slid her feet into the short stirrups. She was only a fair rider; she had spent far more time traveling by ship and wagon and palanquin than by horseback. Praying that she would not fall off and disgrace herself, she gave the filly the lightest and most timid touch with her knees.

And for the first time in hours, she forgot to be afraid. Or perhaps it was for the first time ever.

The silver-grey filly moved with a smooth and silken gait, and the crowd parted for her, every eye upon them. Dany found herself moving faster than she had intended, yet somehow it was exciting rather than terrifying. The horse broke into a trot, and she smiled. Dothraki scrambled to clear a path. The slightest pressure with her legs, the lightest touch on the reins, and the filly responded. She sent it into a gallop, and now the Dothraki were hooting and laughing and shouting at her as they jumped out of her way. As she turned to ride back, a firepit loomed ahead, directly in her path. They were hemmed in on either side, with no room to stop. A daring she had never known filled Daenerys then, and she gave the filly her head.

The silver horse leapt the flames as if she had wings.

When she pulled up before Magister Illyrio, she said, "Tell Khal Drogo that he has given me the wind." The fat Pentoshi stroked his yellow beard as he repeated her words in Dothraki, and Dany saw her new husband smile for the first time.

Compare to a description of Summer, in which many similar elements may be identified.  The horse is Dany's first mount; the direwolf is Bran's first mount.  

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A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

In the yard below, Rickon ran with the wolves.

Bran watched from his window seat. Wherever the boy went, Grey Wind was there first, loping ahead to cut him off, until Rickon saw him, screamed in delight, and went pelting off in another direction. Shaggydog ran at his heels, spinning and snapping if the other wolves came too close. His fur had darkened until he was all black, and his eyes were green fire. Bran's Summer came last. He was silver and smoke, with eyes of yellow gold that saw all there was to see. Smaller than Grey Wind, and more wary. Bran thought he was the smartest of the litter. He could hear his brother's breathless laughter as Rickon dashed across the hard-packed earth on little baby legs.

 

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn III

Fire, she thought, and then, Bran! "Help me," she said urgently, sitting up. "Help me with Bran."

Robb did not seem to hear her. "The library tower's on fire," he said.

Catelyn could see the flickering reddish light through the open window now. She sagged with relief. Bran was safe. The library was across the bailey, there was no way the fire would reach them here. "Thank the gods," she whispered.

Robb looked at her as if she'd gone mad. "Mother, stay here. I'll come back as soon as the fire's out." He ran then. She heard him shout to the guards outside the room, heard them descending together in a wild rush, taking the stairs two and three at a time.

Outside, there were shouts of "Fire!" in the yard, screams, running footsteps, the whinny of frightened horses, and the frantic barking of the castle dogs. The howling was gone, she realized as she listened to the cacophony. The direwolves had fallen silent.

Catelyn said a silent prayer of thanks to the seven faces of god as she went to the window. Across the bailey, long tongues of flame shot from the windows of the library. She watched the smoke rise into the sky and thought sadly of all the books the Starks had gathered over the centuries. Then she closed the shutters.

When she turned away from the window, the man was in the room with her.

"You weren't s'posed to be here," he muttered sourly. "No one was s'posed to be here."

He was a small, dirty man in filthy brown clothing, and he stank of horses. Catelyn knew all the men who worked in their stables, and he was none of them. He was gaunt, with limp blond hair and pale eyes deep-sunk in a bony face, and there was a dagger in his hand.

Catelyn looked at the knife, then at Bran. "No," she said. The word stuck in her throat, the merest whisper.

He must have heard her. "It's a mercy," he said. "He's dead already."

"No," Catelyn said, louder now as she found her voice again. "No, you can't." She spun back toward the window to scream for help, but the man moved faster than she would have believed. One hand clamped down over her mouth and yanked back her head, the other brought the dagger up to her windpipe. The stench of him was overwhelming.

She reached up with both hands and grabbed the blade with all her strength, pulling it away from her throat. She heard him cursing into her ear. Her fingers were slippery with blood, but she would not let go of the dagger. The hand over her mouth clenched more tightly, shutting off her air. Catelyn twisted her head to the side and managed to get a piece of his flesh between her teeth. She bit down hard into his palm. The man grunted in pain. She ground her teeth together and tore at him, and all of a sudden he let go. The taste of his blood filled her mouth. She sucked in air and screamed, and he grabbed her hair and pulled her away from him, and she stumbled and went down, and then he was standing over her, breathing hard, shaking. The dagger was still clutched tightly in his right hand, slick with blood. "You weren't s'posed to be here," he repeated stupidly.

Catelyn saw the shadow slip through the open door behind him. There was a low rumble, less than a snarl, the merest whisper of a threat, but he must have heard something, because he started to turn just as the wolf made its leap. They went down together, half sprawled over Catelyn where she'd fallen. The wolf had him under the jaw. The man's shriek lasted less than a second before the beast wrenched back its head, taking out half his throat.

So that's the sun by proxy (solar wind/flare, etc.) tangling with the comet, resulting in a broken sword.

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His blood felt like warm rain as it sprayed across her face.

Meteor shower!

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The wolf was looking at her. Its jaws were red and wet and its eyes glowed golden in the dark room. It was Bran's wolf, she realized. Of course it was. "Thank you," Catelyn whispered, her voice faint and tiny. She lifted her hand, trembling. The wolf padded closer, sniffed at her fingers, then licked at the blood with a wet rough tongue. When it had cleaned all the blood off her hand, it turned away silently and jumped up on Bran's bed and lay down beside him. Catelyn began to laugh hysterically.

@GloubieBoulga's laugher/slaughter pun in action!  (the sun thanking and comforting the moon for her part in saving him..?)

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That was the way they found them, when Robb and Maester Luwin and Ser Rodrik burst in with half the guards in Winterfell. When the laughter finally died in her throat, they wrapped her in warm blankets and led her back to the Great Keep, to her own chambers. Old Nan undressed her and helped her into a scalding hot bath and washed the blood off her with a soft cloth.

Afterward Maester Luwin arrived to dress her wounds. The cuts in her fingers went deep, almost to the bone, and her scalp was raw and bleeding where he'd pulled out a handful of hair. The maester told her the pain was just starting now, and gave her milk of the poppy to help her sleep.

Finally she closed her eyes.

When she opened them again, they told her that she had slept four days. Catelyn nodded and sat up in bed. It all seemed like a nightmare to her now, everything since Bran's fall, a terrible dream of blood and grief, but she had the pain in her hands to remind her that it was real. She felt weak and light-headed, yet strangely resolute, as if a great weight had lifted from her.

"Bring me some bread and honey," she told her servants, "and take word to Maester Luwin that my bandages want changing." They looked at her in surprise and ran to do her bidding.

Catelyn remembered the way she had been before, and she was ashamed. She had let them all down, her children, her husband, her House. It would not happen again. She would show these northerners how strong a Tully of Riverrun could be.

Robb arrived before her food. Rodrik Cassel came with him, and her husband's ward Theon Greyjoy, and lastly Hallis Mollen, a muscular guardsman with a square brown beard. He was the new captain of the guard, Robb said. Her son was dressed in boiled leather and ringmail, she saw, and a sword hung at his waist.

"Who was he?" Catelyn asked them.

"No one knows his name," Hallis Mollen told her. "He was no man of Winterfell, m'lady, but some says they seen him here and about the castle these past few weeks."

"One of the king's men, then," she said, "or one of the Lannisters'. He could have waited behind when the others left."

"Maybe," Hal said. "With all these strangers filling up Winterfell of late, there's no way of saying who he belonged to."

"He'd been hiding in your stables," Greyjoy said. "You could smell it on him."

"And how could he go unnoticed?" she said sharply.

Hallis Mollen looked abashed. "Between the horses Lord Eddard took south and them we sent north to the Night's Watch, the stalls were half-empty. It were no great trick to hide from the stableboys. Could be Hodor saw him, the talk is that boy's been acting queer, but simple as he is . . . " Hal shook his head.

"We found where he'd been sleeping," Robb put in. "He had ninety silver stags in a leather bag buried beneath the straw."

"It's good to know my son's life was not sold cheaply," Catelyn said bitterly.

Hallis Mollen looked at her, confused. "Begging your grace, m'lady, you saying he was out to kill your boy?"

Greyjoy was doubtful. "That's madness."

"He came for Bran," Catelyn said. "He kept muttering how I wasn't supposed to be there. He set the library fire thinking I would rush to put it out, taking any guards with me. If I hadn't been half-mad with grief, it would have worked."

"Why would anyone want to kill Bran?" Robb said. "Gods, he's only a little boy, helpless, sleeping . . . "

Catelyn gave her firstborn a challenging look. "If you are to rule in the north, you must think these things through, Robb. Answer your own question. Why would anyone want to kill a sleeping child?"

Before he could answer, the servants returned with a plate of food fresh from the kitchen. There was much more than she'd asked for: hot bread, butter and honey and blackberry preserves, a rasher of bacon and a soft-boiled egg, a wedge of cheese, a pot of mint tea. And with it came Maester Luwin.

"How is my son, Maester?" Catelyn looked at all the food and found she had no appetite.

Maester Luwin lowered his eyes. "Unchanged, my lady."

It was the reply she had expected, no more and no less. Her hands throbbed with pain, as if the blade were still in her, cutting deep. She sent the servants away and looked back to Robb. "Do you have the answer yet?"

 

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"Someone is afraid Bran might wake up," Robb said, "afraid of what he might say or do, afraid of something he knows."

Catelyn was proud of him. "Very good." She turned to the new captain of the guard. "We must keep Bran safe. If there was one killer, there could be others."

"How many guards do you want, rn'lady?" Hal asked.

"So long as Lord Eddard is away, my son is the master of Winterfell," she told him.

Robb stood a little taller. "Put one man in the sickroom, night and day, one outside the door, two at the bottom of the stairs. No one sees Bran without my warrant or my mother's."

"As you say, m'lord."

"Do it now," Catelyn suggested.

"And let his wolf stay in the room with him," Robb added.

"Yes," Catelyn said. And then again: "Yes."

Hallis Mollen bowed and left the room.

"Lady Stark," Ser Rodrik said when the guardsman had gone, "did you chance to notice the dagger the killer used?"

"The circumstances did not allow me to examine it closely, but I can vouch for its edge," Catelyn replied with a dry smile. "Why do you ask?"

"We found the knife still in the villain's grasp. It seemed to me that it was altogether too fine a weapon for such a man, so I looked at it long and hard. The blade is Valyrian steel, the hilt dragonbone. A weapon like that has no business being in the hands of such as him. Someone gave it to him."

Catelyn nodded, thoughtful. "Robb, close the door."

He looked at her strangely, but did as she told him.

"What I am about to tell you must not leave this room," she told them. "I want your oaths on that. If even part of what I suspect is true, Ned and my girls have ridden into deadly danger, and a word in the wrong ears could mean their lives."

"Lord Eddard is a second father to me," said Theon Greyjoy. "I do so swear."

"You have my oath," Maester Luwin said.

"And mine, my lady," echoed Ser Rodrik.

She looked at her son. "And you, Robb?"

He nodded his consent.

"My sister Lysa believes the Lannisters murdered her husband, Lord Arryn, the Hand of the King," Catelyn told them. "It comes to me that Jaime Lannister did not join the hunt the day Bran fell. He remained here in the castle." The room was deathly quiet. "I do not think Bran fell from that tower," she said into the stillness. "I think he was thrown."

The shock was plain on their faces. "My lady, that is a monstrous suggestion," said Rodrik Cassel. "Even the Kingslayer would flinch at the murder of an innocent child."

"Oh, would he?" Theon Greyjoy asked. "I wonder."

"There is no limit to Lannister pride or Lannister ambition," Catelyn said.

"The boy had always been surehanded in the past," Maester Luwin said thoughtfully. "He knew every stone in Winterfell."

"Gods," Robb swore, his young face dark with anger. "If this is true, he will pay for it." He drew his sword and waved it in the air. "I'll kill him myself!"

Ser Rodrik bristled at him. "Put that away! The Lannisters are a hundred leagues away. Never draw your sword unless you mean to use it. How many times must I tell you, foolish boy?"

Abashed, Robb sheathed his sword, suddenly a child again. Catelyn said to Ser Rodrik, "I see my son is wearing steel now."

The old master-at-arms said, "I thought it was time."

Robb was looking at her anxiously. "Past time," she said. "Winterfell may have need of all its swords soon, and they had best not be made of wood."

LOL 

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Theon Greyjoy put a hand on the hilt of his blade and said, "My lady, if it comes to that, my House owes yours a great debt."

Maester Luwin pulled at his chain collar where it chafed against his neck. "All we have is conjecture. This is the queen's beloved brother we mean to accuse. She will not take it kindly. We must have proof, or forever keep silent."

"Your proof is in the dagger," Ser Rodrik said. "A fine blade like that will not have gone unnoticed."

There was only one place to find the truth of it, Catelyn realized. "Someone must go to King's Landing."

"I'll go," Robb said.

"No," she told him. "Your place is here. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell." She looked at Ser Rodrik with his great white whiskers, at Maester Luwin in his grey robes, at young Greyjoy, lean and dark and impetuous. Who to send? Who would be believed? Then she knew. Catelyn struggled to push back the blankets, her bandaged fingers as stiff and unyielding as stone. She climbed out of bed. "I must go myself."

Foreshadowing of Lady Stoneheart?  Was this Catelyn's Lightbringer forging?  She now plans to go to King's Landing and ends up wreaking havoc.

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"My lady," said Maester Luwin, "is that wise? Surely the Lannisters would greet your arrival with suspicion."

"What about Bran?" Robb asked. The poor boy looked utterly confused now. "You can't mean to leave him."

"I have done everything I can for Bran," she said, laying a wounded hand on his arm. "His life is in the hands of the gods and Maester Luwin. As you reminded me yourself, Robb, I have other children to think of now."

"You will need a strong escort, my lady," Theon said.

"I'll send Hal with a squad of guardsmen," Robb said.

"No," Catelyn said. "A large party attracts unwelcome attention. I would not have the Lannisters know I am coming."

Ser Rodrik protested. "My lady, let me accompany you at least. The kingsroad can be perilous for a woman alone."

"I will not be taking the kingsroad," Catelyn replied. She thought for a moment, then nodded her consent. "Two riders can move as fast as one, and a good deal faster than a long column burdened by wagons and wheelhouses. I will welcome your company, Ser Rodrik. We will follow the White Knife down to the sea, and hire a ship at WhiteHarbor. Strong horses and brisk winds should bring us to King's Landing well ahead of Ned and the Lannisters." And then, she thought, we shall see what we shall see.

I would be interested in what others have to say about the symbolism of this passage.

Another idea for you to trace is the idea of magic as a 'wisp', particularly a 'wisp of smoke' indicating a possible ember or coal that has the potential to erupt into a blaze.

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A Clash of Kings - Bran IV

"There are men who call themselves mages and warlocks," Maester Luwin said. "I had a friend at the Citadel who could pull a rose out of your ear, but he was no more magical than I was. Oh, to be sure, there is much we do not understand. The years pass in their hundreds and their thousands, and what does any man see of life but a few summers, a few winters? We look at mountains and call them eternal, and so they seem . . . but in the course of time, mountains rise and fall, rivers change their courses, stars fall from the sky, and great cities sink beneath the sea. Even gods die, we think. Everything changes.

"Perhaps magic was once a mighty force in the world, but no longer. What little remains is no more than the wisp of smoke that lingers in the air after a great fire has burned out, and even that is fading. Valyria was the last ember, and Valyria is gone. The dragons are no more, the giants are dead, the children of the forest forgotten with all their lore.

 

[GloubieBoulga]

@ravenous reader, you have the manner to put together some quote and show the links which are making very much sense ! 

Now the scene of the burning library and the failed murder of Bran seems to me luminous ! I always considered there was a bloodmagic ritual (unconsciently realized) here, with the blood, the fire, the smoke, the salt and the dagger, but I was hesitant about what to do with. 

First, the link between the weirwood and the library (why the hell I didn't see it before  ?) : in fact, you have a weirwood burning, and a cripple boy "dreaming" who can't move, and who will be killed with a dagger (in valyrian steel, and dragonbones; I don't know for you, but it makes me think to dragonglass daggers that Jon made) as a "gift of mercy". But it seems it is too soon, and a mother intervenes to save his son. All this scene sounds for me like a foreshadowing of what will arrive to Bran at the end (but this time, the "gift of mercy" will be effective to spare him from the suffering of the fire)

Second, the mother's part : here Catelyn has her fingers cut = I do here the hypothesis of a "curse" (or a "shadow of the past", just to make a metaphor), where Catelyn play the part of the woman with white hair of Bran's visions in the weirwood, the woman who was cutting the throat of a prisoner at the feet of the weirwood (the parallelism is even clearer when she slays Jinglebells at the red Wedding). In Bran's room, the murderer is dying the throat "cut" by Bran's direwolf (he has no name at this moment), and after, the direwolf licks Catelyn's fingers : could we see here the direwolf symbolizing a dagger/sword ? Could be this scene the first forging of the "dagger" who will slay the "heart of winter" ? 

You asked me for my "scenario of the origins" (of the Starks), here he is, and I think I have found some place for the women part (it was not the case some weeks ago) : all the situations are situations we can find in the saga, in the present, always repeating themselves but with little variations. Of course, all of this is hypothesis/speculation :  

- at the beginning, there is an old king, in the (far) north of Westeros, and I place his castle at the Fist. This old king has a wife and 4 sons. 3 sons are from his legitime wife (I call them the "bear" or the "stag"/ the bird/ the wolf), and the 4th is reputed a bastard (it is the "ram" or the "goat"). 

Here, I had recently the idea that the 3 sons weren't trueborn and that the wife had given horns to the old king. In that way, the only trueborn was the reputed bastard. I don't know if I'm true, but it permits to imagine the "woman with white hair" from Bran's weirwood vision as a mix of Catelyn and Cersei. That also gives another sense to the fact that Bran sees the incest between Cersei and Jaime : he sees that the king's children aren't trueborn but bastards, and that happens at Winterfell, in the oldest part of the castle, as if he was surprising an old Stark story. I must confess, this idea came when you asked me about the dirty secret of the Stark  : it wouldn't be only a kingslaying and a kinslaying, but also the fact that they are not trueborn... but finaly and ironicaly, the true blood could have come back in the lineage, let's look at what is following : 

- the old king dies (naturaly ? killed by his wife ? or a son ?). There is a scission in the family and the clan because the bastard is the eldest and has some followers. But the old queen want the crown for her sons, and the crown pass to the "bear" son. A war begins. Perhaps also because of a maid disputed between the bastard and the bear son. Perhaps it is a mix of both. I'm not fixed about that but that don't change the scenario. I suspect that the maid is also desired by the second son (the bird), a weak but very intelligent person, probably jalous. This one surprises the secret of the maid and the bastard. For one reason, he kills his bear brother during a hunt (perhaps this one was an awfull king, or perhaps he was hawfull only for the maid who was looking for revenge or salvation, or perhaps it was an accident and he disappeared totally desperated and became a greenseer after that, looking for a way to resurrect his brother or hide the crime, or..., or...). The bastard was accused for this murder.

And then, there was really the war between bastard's followers and the 3rd son (the wolf) followers. At the beginning, the bastard won and took the Fist. The wolf and his mother (and some followers) had to flee to the south. Was there a peace and a trapp (like red wedding; I like the idea that it could be a guest right failure, mirroring the present, with Robb Stark - first son of Catelyn - playing the part of the one that the old queen wanted to kill) to capture the bastard ? or was the bastard captured in a final battle he lost (like Jaime in the Whispering Woods)? The result is that at the end, the bastard was sacrified by the old queen to the young weirwood of Winterfell, the wolf received definitly the crown... and married the maid. But the maid could have been (secretly) pregnant from the bastard and her children became officials heirs of the wolf. A kind of revenge. I'm hesitant with this last point, because I think it is not entirely necessary : the blood of the "bastard" is already in the weirwood, so he "naturaly" influences all the Starks who are born and who lives, and who are burried at Winterfell after they are dead : the same way that all the watcher at the Wall have their blood influenced by the Wall (or the same way that one can bind his/her blood to a dragon with a dragonbinder, and after that transmit the gift to his/her children, I suppose). 

[Unchained]

22 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

What do you think of the assassination attempt on Bran in which there is the dramatic burning of the library tower with all the fire and smoke?  Could this crucial scene be another candidate for a symbolic lightbringer forging/wedding?  As I've said before (particularly in that quote I provided you of Roose burning the book from which the spirits emerge turning the pages in the flames, as if reading and absorbing all the information with accelerated hunger), burning a book is akin to burning a tree (since books are made of paper from trees; and GRRM's trees like books 'remember,' thereby representing a cultural repository or library of sorts in which the greenseers are the archivists, librarians, readers and above all writers and singers -- so burning an old library is like burning a godswood).

@ravenous reader, You have found a ton of great stuff here.  I can only add to some of it, but I will try.  

 

I think burning weirwood is a severely underappreciated aspect of these rituals, remember my tinfoily dragon from tree stuff when I first started posting.  Yes, there are several aspects of that make this scene a candidate, however they mythical astronomy part seems off in some way.  @LmL seems to be taking a hiatus like he has a life outside of this place, which is great we can figure this out  I am going to attempt to go through the chapter.  This post may be of ravenous proportions in terms of length, though not nearly so intelligent nor eloquent.  

 

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"My son lies here broken and dying, Luwin, and you wish to discuss a new master of horse? Do you think I care what happens in the stables? Do you think it matters to me one whit? I would gladly butcher every horse in Winterfell with my own hands if it would open Bran's eyes, do you understand that? Do you!"

Another LOL opportunity

 

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"He needs to hear them sing," Robb said. Somewhere out in Winterfell, a second wolf began to howl in chorus with the first. Then a third, closer. "Shaggydog and Grey Wind," Robb said as their voices rose and fell together. "You can tell them apart if you listen close."

Catelyn was shaking. It was the grief, the cold, the howling of the direwolves. Night after night, the howling and the cold wind and the grey empty castle, on and on they went, never changing, and her boy lying there broken, the sweetest of her children, the gentlest, Bran who loved to laugh and climb and dreamt of knighthood, all gone now, she would never hear him laugh again. Sobbing, she pulled her hand free of his and covered her ears against those terrible howls. "Make them stop!" she cried. "I can't stand it, make them stop, make them stop, kill them all if you must, just make them stop!"

 

 

Bran needs to hear them sing.  He is being brought back by their magic singing, making this somewhat about his transformational ritual.  I cannot for the life of me figure out why Catelyn hates the singing so much.  Because she is not a wolf(moonsinger) until after the end of this chapter perhaps?  Either way wolves are moonsingners and fill the role Mirri the moonsinger fills at the dragon hatching of what I have been referring to as 'master of ceremonies'.  Later the wolves sing together in a chorus, they are not fiery dancers, but they are the singing equivalent.      

 

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She didn't remember falling to the floor, but there she was, and Robb was lifting her, holding her in strong arms. "Don't be afraid, Mother. They would never hurt him." He helped her to her narrow bed in the corner of the sickroom. "Close your eyes," he said gently. "Rest. Maester Luwin tells me you've hardly slept since Bran's fall."

Moons falling are always bad.     

 

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Fire, she thought, and then, Bran! "Help me," she said urgently, sitting up. "Help me with Bran."

Hmmm, what ever could cause someone to think of fire and have their mind go to Bran....

 

This where we first hear that the library is on fire.  Its a burning weirwood tree.  No wonder she thought of Bran. 

 

 

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"You weren't s'posed to be here," he muttered sourly. "No one was s'posed to be here."

He was a small, dirty man in filthy brown clothing, and he stank of horses. Catelyn knew all the men who worked in their stables, and he was none of them. He was gaunt, with limp blond hair and pale eyes deep-sunk in a bony face, and there was a dagger in his hand.

Catelyn looked at the knife, then at Bran. "No," she said. The word stuck in her throat, the merest whisper.

 

OK, now it is getting interesting.  Right after this Catelyn says "No" three times to the killer reflecting Dany a few chapters earlier in a very moon destruction heavy moment I will talk about again, her and Drogo's marriage consummation (lots of No's there followed by a "yes").  

 

"You weren't s'posed to be here", now that is very interesting.  It really does sound like the moon was not meant to be where it was.  Forgive the lack of quotes @ravenous reader posted them right before.  Also, "no one" was supposed to be there.  Anyway, I have a slightly different interpretation of the mythic astronomy stuff here.  It is an unusual case though.  First, Catelyn gets her air cut off by the assassin's hand.  That seems like one of your drowning references.  Next, she bit down on his flesh getting a taste of blood, which is a psychedelic drug in this universe.  Next, she sucked in air furthering the drowning motif you have been pushing.  I still do not feel I have a great handle of hand injuries.  Solar character like Jaime get them, but so do 'hand of the King' types like Davos and the Halfhand, who I see as lunar characters (that does not mean they are).  I understand that the fiery hand of the solar King animates and wields the stony hand of the moon.  Both are injured.  The next thing that happens is that the would-be killer throws Catelyn down by the hair (heir??).  Either way that is the fire moon being thrown down to earth.  Also, he says again she was not supposed to be there.  So, after the fire moon goes down, the next thing that happens is a rising plume of smoke blocks out the sun.  Joffery gets his face darkened by poison, Oberyn gets his eyes put out, really his whole face, what else symbolizes the sun's face being defeated.  Well, next the rising plume of smoke shows up in the form of Summer.  Grey Wind is smoky per the OP, so other wolves especially grey ones should be too.  As Catelyn, the moon, falls the wolf jumps(rises), and it decapitates (partially) the sun assassin just like the dust from the moon/earth collision throws up dust that blocks the sun.  Bran is a solar figure, I agree.  However, he is the underground night sun.  The sun after is burrows through the horizon and becomes what the world book calls the Lion of the Night.  There is also a rough theme of different characters having different elements.  Dany = fire, Jon = Ice, Bran = Earth, Sansa = Air, Arya = water.  I do not know much about his, but it seems real.  It is another reason Bran can be the earth.  A third reason would be that in the way dark ages people thought, the universe revolved around the earth.  If the assassin/Catelyn fight is a zoomed way out to the mythical astronomy level scene then anything not moving, like Bran, must be the earth.  So, the next question is how the hell the assassin is a solar king if he is a dirty little nobody.  If Joffery did indeed send him, then maybe Joff is the sun and the assassin is just the comet, but his head being removed seems like a case of lunar revenge.  After, Summer licks Catelyn's bloody hand.  Blood seems to carry the soul in life just like wolves to for wargs before and after death.  When someone gets their throat cut, their blood flows into the weirwood roots below going into the tree.  Then, when the tree is burned, smoke sometimes symbolized by wolves carries it on.  Here, the grey wolf licks up Catelyn's blood and jumps up to Bran in his bed.  If Bran is a weirwood tree here, it carries him a sacrifice.  If he is the sun in the sky, it carries the soul up to the sky like smoke does.  If he is an underground sun I have no idea what is going on.  Catelyn laughing is indeed slaughtering.  When the moon is falls, there is a lot of death on earth.  It is indeed at least Catelyn's rebirth.  Next, she has a new resolve.  When Robb says to put his wolf in his room, Catelyn says "yes" twice.  It sounds a lot like Dany's wedding a few chapeters before where Drogo says "No" several times before Dany says "yes".  No idea if it matters or what it means.  

 

On a side note, if it turns out the moon did jump in front of the comet like a secret service member (kingsguard, ice moon) there is no chance it was an accident.  GRRM hates natural events, people caused the long night and the Doom.  Here we may have a fire moon in Catelyn protecting earth or whatever Bran is.  

 

Moving on, I answered my own question form the OP.  I figured out (probably not for the first time by anyone) what Drogo's and the fool's bells mean.  At Dany's marriage consumation, she removed his hair bells and unbraids his hair in a river of darkness.  The bells are the stars in the sky.  When the moon gets destroyed, they are covered by a river of darkness of sorts in the form of the rising plume of smoke which is the same thing as Drogo's grey stallion in the fire and the grey wolves.

 

 

 

            

 

 

 

 

 

 

     

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, Unchained said:

This post may be of ravenous proportions in terms of length, though not nearly so intelligent nor eloquent.  

You are too modest.  What could be more ravenous than an unchained wolf..?  

1 hour ago, Unchained said:

mythical astronomy part seems off in some way

I agree.  I make no pretentions; as I've said before: meteors are not my metier!

1 hour ago, Unchained said:

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"My son lies here broken and dying, Luwin, and you wish to discuss a new master of horse? Do you think I care what happens in the stables? Do you think it matters to me one whit? I would gladly butcher every horse in Winterfell with my own hands if it would open Bran's eyes, do you understand that? Do you!"

Another LOL opportunity

Sorry, I missed the significance you're insinuating.  The stables -- relation to Sleipnir, is that it?  'Butchering the horses' in order to open the third eye...What do you think that means?

1 hour ago, Unchained said:

wolves are moonsingners and fill the role Mirri the moonsinger fills at the dragon hatching of what I have been referring to as 'master of ceremonies'.  Later the wolves sing together in a chorus, they are not fiery dancers, but they are the singing equivalent.  

Agreed.  And they're associated with the wind.  @Wizz-The-Smith has previously associated winds, wolves and wood (to which I've added winter).

1 hour ago, Unchained said:

Hmmm, what ever could cause someone to think of fire and have their mind go to Bran....

 

This where we first hear that the library is on fire.  Its a burning weirwood tree.  No wonder she thought of Bran. 

Burning a library is associated with a loss of knowledge; but also symbolically with an 'ignition of understanding,' as I've referred to it!

1 hour ago, Unchained said:

OK, now it is getting interesting.  Right after this Catelyn says "No" three times to the killer reflecting Dany a few chapters earlier in a very moon destruction heavy moment I will talk about again, her and Drogo's marriage consummation (lots of No's there followed by a "yes").  

What do you think that means?  Apart from the number of utterances, the 'no's' followed by the 'yes' might reflect the failed, dud forgings followed by the one great success of Lightbringer.

1 hour ago, Unchained said:

The next thing that happens is that the would-be killer throws Catelyn down by the hair (heir??).  Either way that is the fire moon being thrown down to earth.

That sounds about right.  @LmL has previously compared Ygritte's and Sansa's 'kissed by fire' hair to a river of fire (i.e. the meteor shower).  And Catelyn has the same hair.

1 hour ago, Unchained said:

after the fire moon goes down, the next thing that happens is a rising plume of smoke blocks out the sun.  Joffery gets his face darkened by poison, Oberyn gets his eyes put out, really his whole face, what else symbolizes the sun's face being defeated.  Well, next the rising plume of smoke shows up in the form of Summer.  Grey Wind is smoky per the OP, so other wolves especially grey ones should be too. 

That's good.  I prefer that to my 'solar wind' idea.  Summer is explicitly compared to 'silver grey smoke.'  He's described in this scene as a 'shadow' so that would accord with the rising cloud of smoke overshadowing or blocking the sun.  He's definitely also associated with the falling moon meteor (in addition to the rising ash cloud) at the Night Fort when he leaps down from the hole in the dome (i.e. the firmament) and lands in a pool of moonlight.

1 hour ago, Unchained said:

As Catelyn, the moon, falls the wolf jumps(rises), and it decapitates (partially) the sun assassin just like the dust from the moon/earth collision throws up dust that blocks the sun.  Bran is a solar figure, I agree.  However, he is the underground night sun.  The sun after is burrows through the horizon and becomes what the world book calls the Lion of the Night.  

How can the assassin and Bran both be the sun?  I think the assassin is the white comet.  

1 hour ago, Unchained said:

If the assassin/Catelyn fight is a zoomed way out to the mythical astronomy level scene then anything not moving, like Bran, must be the earth.  So, the next question is how the hell the assassin is a solar king if he is a dirty little nobody.

Bran as the earth might work.  But with all the climbing and dreaming and 'flying' and head in the sky, I see him as a celestial being; his feet are not really on terra firma, neither literally nor figuratively.  I'm not really on board with the sun attacking the moon.  The one who was not supposed to be there was actually the Stranger -- the Red Wanderer -- the Thief who set a fire, intruded on the sun and moon, and wreaked havoc.

'Dirty little nobody' is a comet -- they are collections of ice and cosmic 'dirt' ('gravel').  Pale and potentially deadly creatures carrying a load of 'frozen fire'.  

1 hour ago, Unchained said:

his head being removed seems like a case of lunar revenge.

That might be the broken sword imagery.  The comet was broken in the exchange (the blade parted from the hilt?).

1 hour ago, Unchained said:

Here, the grey wolf licks up Catelyn's blood and jumps up to Bran in his bed.  If Bran is a weirwood tree here, it carries him a sacrifice.  If he is the sun in the sky, it carries the soul up to the sky like smoke does.  If he is an underground sun I have no idea what is going on

Maybe the sun not moon was the original target of the greenseers -- radical I know!  Then, the grey cloud rising to block out the sun from view might serve as Summer does as a protective bodyguard for the 'sun/son' of Winterfell, until he is well enough to wake again and scale the walls of Winterfell.

1 hour ago, Unchained said:

Catelyn laughing is indeed slaughtering.  When the moon is falls, there is a lot of death on earth.

Indeed.  Don't you love @GloubieBoulga's pun?!  Catelyn also does a lot of hysterical laughing just before her own throat is cut at the Red Wedding.  What do you think it means that she recalls Bran and the events with the assassin just before she slaughters Jinglebell?

The laughter puts me in mind of 'the devil's bluster' (the devil's laugh -- the 'ho ho ho' announcing his arrival on the stage during Medieval 'mystery plays') echoed by Patchface's ominous 'oh oh oh.'

1 hour ago, Unchained said:

On a side note, if it turns out the moon did jump in front of the comet like a secret service member (kingsguard, ice moon) there is no chance it was an accident.  GRRM hates natural events, people caused the long night and the Doom.  Here we may have a fire moon in Catelyn protecting earth or whatever Bran is.  

Bran is the sun.  If he does not survive, Summer will not come again.  That's why, when he wakes up from his coma, he names his wolf 'Summer.'

1 hour ago, Unchained said:

 I figured out (probably not for the first time by anyone) what Drogo's and the fool's bells mean.  At Dany's marriage consumation, she removed his hair bells and unbraids his hair in a river of darkness.  The bells are the stars in the sky.  When the moon gets destroyed, they are covered by a river of darkness of sorts in the form of the rising plume of smoke which is the same thing as Drogo's grey stallion in the fire and the grey wolves.

I like that!  To the best of my knowledge, you are the first.  So the bells ringing or tolling are the meteors falling to earth.

What's the significance of the grey stallion and wolves silencing the bells?

 

On 3/9/2017 at 6:56 AM, GloubieBoulga said:

@ravenous reader, you have the manner to put together some quote and show the links which are making very much sense ! 

Hi Gloubie    I'm glad to be making 'very much sense'!

I think your double-crossing 'trueborn' vs. 'bastard' star-crossed lover scenario is very interesting.  Maybe you should put your ideas together with a few substantiating quotes from the text, to make the case a bit tighter, in a thread of your own?  Sometimes I don't always know where you're getting these indications from, although your posts are always thought-provoking and entertaining!

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Now the scene of the burning library and the failed murder of Bran seems to me luminous ! I always considered there was a bloodmagic ritual (unconsciently realized) here, with the blood, the fire, the smoke, the salt and the dagger, but I was hesitant about what to do with. 

The 'salt'?  I don't recall salt being involved...although blood always contains salt and GRRM highlights its salty metallic (iron and copper) taste.

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First, the link between the weirwood and the library (why the hell I didn't see it before  ?) :

There are many such libraries, both literal and figurative -- any repository of knowledge can be considered a library -- and in keeping with @Wizz-The-Smith's greenseer concept, they are mostly found in or near hollow hills:  e.g. the House of Black and White is a library of faces, which like the trees 'remember' their past lives, from which the eyes have been gouged out in order to enable the wearer i.e. 'faceless man' to 'see', paralleling the way the faces are carved into the trunks of trees to activate the greensight, allowing communion with the 'faceless gods'and the complex is moreover accessed via a weirwood door; then another important library at Castle Black off the wormways in which the bookworm Samwell can be found devouring his way through the 'folios' (i.e. like the foliage on a tree; another name for pages is 'leaves') in order to solve the mystery behind the Others (the affiliated weirwood providing access to the mysteries would be the 'Black Gate'); the Tower of the Hand which Cersei stuffed with the greater part of Tyrion's worldly belongings (i.e. books) before burning it; the Book Tower in which Rodrik the Reader sits reading; the library at Oldtown; the Isle of Ravens...if ravens bring dark words on their dark wings, and moreover used to transmit the message directly by speaking, then we can say that a raven is a book!  Bear in mind that books are often 'leather-bound' tomes, so getting stuck in to their contents between the covers is akin to skinchanging.

(P.S.  That reminds me of Lewis Carroll's famous 'Mad Hatter's riddle' to Alice:

'Why is a raven like a writing desk?')

Another thing to consider is that libraries are crypts, in which the dead are entombed in vaults, stacked away in rows like dusty rows of bookshelves.  Not only are these archives often located underground, but the symbolism of books is related to death (and rebirth).  Books are made from dead trees.  Once inside the library, they continue to decay (having enjoyed a rebirth in their 'second life' one might say...'the man who reads lives a thousand lives [the man who doesn't read but one]', etc).

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

It was a relief when Dolorous Edd Tollett opened the door to tell him that Gilly was without. Jon set Maester Aemon's letter aside. "I will see her." He dreaded this. "Find Sam for me. I will want to speak with him next."

"He'll be down with the books. My old septon used to say that books are dead men talking. Dead men should keep quiet, is what I say. No one wants to hear a dead man's yabber." Dolorous Edd went off muttering of worms and spiders.

‘Dead men sing no songs…’

 

A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

"The younger four all being sons, brothers, or bastards of the King in the North. Tell me something useful. Tell me of our enemy."

"The Others." Sam licked his lips. "They are mentioned in the annals, though not as often as I would have thought. The annals I've found and looked at, that is. There's more I haven't found, I know. Some of the older books are falling to pieces. The pages crumble when I try and turn them. And the really old books . . . either they have crumbled all away or they are buried somewhere that I haven't looked yet or . . . well, it could be that there are no such books, and never were.

 

A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

"It was as much his idea as mine." Jon opened the door for him. "No farewells. The fewer folk who know of this, the better. An hour before first light, by the lichyard."

Sam did not recall leaving the armory. The next thing he knew he was stumbling through mud and patches of old snow, toward Maester Aemon's chambers. I could hide, he told himself. I could hide in the vaults amongst the books. I could live down there with the mouse and sneak up at night to steal food. Crazed thoughts, he knew, as futile as they were desperate. The vaults were the first place they would look for him. The last place they would look for him was beyond the Wall, but that was even madder. 

 

A Clash of Kings - Jon I

Sam?" Jon called softly.

The air smelled of paper and dust and years. Before him, tall wooden shelves rose up into dimness, crammed with leatherbound books and bins of ancient scrolls. A faint yellow glow filtered through the stacks from some hidden lamp. Jon blew out the taper he carried, preferring not to risk an open flame amidst so much old dry paper. Instead he followed the light, wending his way down the narrow aisles beneath barrel-vaulted ceilings. All in black, he was a shadow among shadows, dark of hair, long of face, grey of eye. Black moleskin gloves covered his hands; the right because it was burned, the left because a man felt half a fool wearing only one glove.

Samwell Tarly sat hunched over a table in a niche carved into the stone of the wall. The glow came from the lamp hung over his head. He looked up at the sound of Jon's steps.

Books record the thoughts and lives of the dead.  Potentially containing forbidden, coveted, dangerous knowledge, they collectively represent the tree of knowledge and stolen fire of the gods.  As such, books are often inflammatory objects for which people are willing to kill -- and reciprocally for which people are killed.  We have already received intimations of a number of such deadly books:

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IV

Later, when Young Griff went up on deck to help Yandry with the sails and poles, Haldon set up his cyvasse table for their game. Tyrion watched with mismatched eyes, and said, "The boy is bright. You have done well by him. Half the lords in Westeros are not so learned, sad to say. Languages, history, songs, sums … a heady stew for some sellsword's son."

"A book can be as dangerous as a sword in the right hands," said Haldon. "Try to give me a better battle this time, Yollo. You play cyvasse as badly as you tumble."

This is an echo of Littlefinger's line 'a harp can be as dangerous as a sword in the right hands' or Tywin's method of winning wars 'with quills and ravens' -- all basically variations of Seams' word/sword pun.

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard V

"What can you tell me of his final illness?"

The Grand Maester spread his hands in a gesture of helpless sorrow. "He came to me one day asking after a certain book, as hale and healthy as ever, though it did seem to me that something was troubling him deeply. The next morning he was twisted over in pain, too sick to rise from bed. Maester Colemon thought it was a chill on the stomach. The weather had been hot, and the Hand often iced his wine, which can upset the digestion. When Lord Jon continued to weaken, I went to him myself, but the gods did not grant me the power to save him."

 

A Feast for Crows - Prologue

"The key?" the alchemist inquired politely.

Something made Pate hesitate. "Is it some book you want?" Some of the old Valyrian scrolls down in the locked vaults were said to be the only surviving copies in the world.

"What I want is none of your concern."

 

A Feast for Crows - Cersei VIII

"Good. You may go." As he turned toward the door, though, she called him back. "One more thing. What does the Citadel teach concerning prophecy? Can our morrows be foretold?"

The old man hesitated. One wrinkled hand groped blindly at his chest, as if to stroke the beard that was not there. "Can our morrows be foretold?" he repeated slowly. "Mayhaps. There are certain spells in the old books . . . but Your Grace might ask instead, 'Should our morrows be foretold?' And to that I should answer, 'No.' Some doors are best left closed."

"See that you close mine as you leave." She should have known that he would give her an answer as useless as he was.

Reading a book is like opening a door.  Opening a book's cover is like swinging open a door; a book's spine like a door's hinges.  Reading a prophecy.  Books can burn the reader. 

A ‘book’ meant death for Melara.

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in fact, you have a weirwood burning, and a cripple boy "dreaming" who can't move, and who will be killed with a dagger (in valyrian steel, and dragonbones; I don't know for you, but it makes me think to dragonglass daggers that Jon made) as a "gift of mercy". But it seems it is too soon, and a mother intervenes to save his son. All this scene sounds for me like a foreshadowing of what will arrive to Bran at the end (but this time, the "gift of mercy" will be effective to spare him from the suffering of the fire)

The gift of mercy to save a greenseer the suffering of burning.  That's the only circumstance in which it would make sense for Jon to kill Bran.

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Second, the mother's part : here Catelyn has her fingers cut = I do here the hypothesis of a "curse" (or a "shadow of the past", just to make a metaphor), where Catelyn play the part of the woman with white hair of Bran's visions in the weirwood, the woman who was cutting the throat of a prisoner at the feet of the weirwood (the parallelism is even clearer when she slays Jinglebells at the red Wedding). In Bran's room, the murderer is dying the throat "cut" by Bran's direwolf (he has no name at this moment), and after, the direwolf licks Catelyn's fingers : could we see here the direwolf symbolizing a dagger/sword ? Could be this scene the first forging of the "dagger" who will slay the "heart of winter" ? 

@Unchained, what do you think of this?  Maybe Summer is the Lightbringer being forged?

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You asked me for my "scenario of the origins" (of the Starks), here he is, and I think I have found some place for the women part (it was not the case some weeks ago) : all the situations are situations we can find in the saga, in the present, always repeating themselves but with little variations. Of course, all of this is hypothesis/speculation :  

- at the beginning, there is an old king, in the (far) north of Westeros, and I place his castle at the Fist. This old king has a wife and 4 sons. 3 sons are from his legitime wife (I call them the "bear" or the "stag"/ the bird/ the wolf), and the 4th is reputed a bastard (it is the "ram" or the "goat"). 

Here, I had recently the idea that the 3 sons weren't trueborn and that the wife had given horns to the old king. In that way, the only trueborn was the reputed bastard. I don't know if I'm true, but it permits to imagine the "woman with white hair" from Bran's weirwood vision as a mix of Catelyn and Cersei. That also gives another sense to the fact that Bran sees the incest between Cersei and Jaime : he sees that the king's children aren't trueborn but bastards, and that happens at Winterfell, in the oldest part of the castle, as if he was surprising an old Stark story.

I really like that.  So in that scenario, Bran plays the role of the Stranger/Red Wanderer/Thief -- the one who wasn't supposed to be there.

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I must confess, this idea came when you asked me about the dirty secret of the Stark  : it wouldn't be only a kingslaying and a kinslaying, but also the fact that they are not trueborn... but finaly and ironicaly, the true blood could have come back in the lineage, let's look at what is following : 

- the old king dies (naturaly ? killed by his wife ? or a son ?). There is a scission in the family and the clan because the bastard is the eldest and has some followers. But the old queen want the crown for her sons, and the crown pass to the "bear" son. A war begins. Perhaps also because of a maid disputed between the bastard and the bear son. Perhaps it is a mix of both. I'm not fixed about that but that don't change the scenario. I suspect that the maid is also desired by the second son (the bird), a weak but very intelligent person, probably jalous. This one surprises the secret of the maid and the bastard. For one reason, he kills his bear brother during a hunt (perhaps this one was an awfull king, or perhaps he was hawfull only for the maid who was looking for revenge or salvation, or perhaps it was an accident and he disappeared totally desperated and became a greenseer after that, looking for a way to resurrect his brother or hide the crime, or..., or...). The bastard was accused for this murder.

This may be why Catelyn makes that strange statement to Jon, 'It should've been you' when Bran is lying in a coma.  In the past, someone else took the fall for the bird.  This time around, the bird took the fall instead of his brother (remember the chess analogy with the rook making the 'castling' move to save the king).

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And then, there was really the war between bastard's followers and the 3rd son (the wolf) followers. At the beginning, the bastard won and took the Fist. The wolf and his mother (and some followers) had to flee to the south. Was there a peace and a trapp (like red wedding; I like the idea that it could be a guest right failure, mirroring the present, with Robb Stark - first son of Catelyn - playing the part of the one that the old queen wanted to kill) to capture the bastard ? or was the bastard captured in a final battle he lost (like Jaime in the Whispering Woods)? The result is that at the end, the bastard was sacrified by the old queen to the young weirwood of Winterfell, the wolf received definitly the crown... and married the maid. But the maid could have been (secretly) pregnant from the bastard and her children became officials heirs of the wolf. A kind of revenge.

So how do you interpret Bran's greenseeing vision when he sees the pregnant woman emerging from the black pool at the heart tree, praying that her son may mete out vengeance?

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I'm hesitant with this last point, because I think it is not entirely necessary : the blood of the "bastard" is already in the weirwood, so he "naturaly" influences all the Starks who are born and who lives, and who are burried at Winterfell after they are dead : the same way that all the watcher at the Wall have their blood influenced by the Wall (or the same way that one can bind his/her blood to a dragon with a dragonbinder, and after that transmit the gift to his/her children, I suppose). 

Can you explain further what you mean by the Night's Watchmen's blood being influenced by the Wall?  Sounds fascinating!

[LmL]

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Bran as the earth might work.  But with all the climbing and dreaming and 'flying' and head in the sky, I see him as a celestial being; his feet are not really on terra firma, neither literally nor figuratively.  I'm not really on board with the sun attacking the moon.  

Azor Ahai is the sun, and he stabs Nissa Nissa, the moon - that's pretty fundamental. Drogo impregnates Dany, sun --> moon... am I missing the context of your statement? The sun killing the moon is the first thing that happens. 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

The one who was not supposed to be there was actually the Stranger -- the Red Wanderer -- the Thief who set a fire, intruded on the sun and moon, and wreaked havoc.

Bingo

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

'Dirty little nobody' is a comet -- they are collections of ice and cosmic 'dirt' ('gravel').  Pale and potentially deadly creatures carrying a load of 'frozen fire'.  

Double bingo - this is a black stone core and a white comet, exactly how natural comets are. The Valyrian steel dagger (with a dragonbone hilt to make it a real dragonclaw) is the black core, and pale nobody is the white comet, perfect. I mean, he's the "cat's paw" - the sun's claw. The rest of the royal party that left WF would be the other half of the comet - it's like the whole part split off a extra comet which came and struck Catelyn.

Cat is NN, as @Unchained surmised. She becomes a great weirwood here, with the bloody hands and all. She coats the blade with her blood.  After this, she leaves for white harbor, an ice moon symbol. That might be your fire moon meteor ---> ice moon.

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

3 hours ago, Unchained said:

his head being removed seems like a case of lunar revenge.

That might be the broken sword imagery.  The comet was broken in the exchange (the blade parted from the hilt?).

Yes. The comet is destroyed when it collides with the fire moon - at least, the white half is. That's the dead assassin. Arys Oakheart does the same routine - he's a white comet that turns red before getting his head chopped off, with the "green blood swallowing the red." AA goes into the net. 

 

[GloubieBoulga]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

So how do you interpret Bran's greenseeing vision when he sees the pregnant woman emerging from the black pool at the heart tree, praying that her son may mete out vengeance?

I interprete this scene as a possible echo of an old situation : if we follow the logic of Bran's visions (who are going even deeper in the past), the pregnant woman can't be the "maid" of my hypothesis (and perhaps she has a totally different story and live a situation where Starks men are all dead because of their ennemies, and she is asking for a mal heir to avenge her husband, her brothers, aso...), but in relation with the others visions, she tells a part of the story. Same thing with the tall knight kissing a maid : they are not the characters of the "deep past", but their scene put together with the others tells us a little part of a past and forgotten story. 

As Tom is saying about the old ser Lichester (Arya IV, ASOS) : 

 

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The next morning, as they crossed the little stone bridge behind the keep, Gendry wondered if this was the bridge the old man had fought over. No one knew. "Most like it is," said Jack-Be-Lucky. "Don't see no other bridges."

"You'd know for certain if there was a song," said Tom Sevenstrings. "One good song, and we'd know who Ser Maynard used to be and why he wanted to cross this bridge so bad. Poor old Lychester might be as far famed as the Dragonknight if he'd only had sense enough to keep a singer."

 

 

Here, you have the song as "memory's keepers". Note that it can be false memories and lies, as we have during Joffrey's wedding : those are the songs of the winners, they can arrange the story how they want ! I think there is a link (almost symbollic) with the fact that ravens and crows have lost their speaking ability; and another with Ghost, the bastard's wolf, who seems to be mute (I don't think he is, because in Jon's dream in the Frostfangs, we can here him howling, once) = Stark's ghost are deprived of their speech. 

 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Can you explain further what you mean by the Night's Watchmen's blood being influenced by the Wall?  Sounds fascinating!

Yes ! I'm taking the "brothehood" of the Watchmen in a litteral sense (I think I have already explained it in the "Heresy Wall" thread) : the Black Gate show us that their is a greenseer connected to a weirwood, and this weirwood is inside (and grows outside, with time) the Wall. The blood of this greenseer is passed in all the Wall (if I can use a metaphor, the Wall is like his/her child, and he transmitted his/her blood - I dont choose between his or her, because I can't say if the greenseer was a woman or a man). The Watchmen - when they pronounce their vows - are symbolically marrying with this greenseer, and the fact to pass their live constantly very near the Wall and in contact with it (they touch the ice when they repare, when they are ascending at the top, when they eat the food coming from the caves, aso... ) makes that their blood receives a part of the greenseer's blood : this part makes them literaly brothers.

Or, there is another possibility : the greenseer is wed with the Wall, and the Watchmen are their child. In that case, the vows aren't a wedding but more a baptism. As Stonesnake says to Jon about the mountain, when they are in the Frostfangs (Jon IV, ACOK) : 

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"The mountain is your mother," Stonesnake had told him during an easier climb a few days past. "Cling to her, press your face up against her teats, and she won't drop you." Jon had made a joke of it, saying how he'd always wondered who his mother was, but never thought to find her in the Frostfangs. 

Note, that Jon and Wildlings do the same when they climb the Wall (and the Wall rejects some of them... like Catelyn was rejecting Jon)

(That also suddenly reminds me Stephen King's "It", when the girl Beverly must bed with all the boys of her group to keep the link between them and save them from the cave of the It). 

If the greenseer was a Stark, the Watchmen have all Stark's blood after a certain time ^^. 

 

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I really like that.  So in that scenario, Bran plays the role of the Stranger/Red Wanderer/Thief -- the one who wasn't supposed to be there.

Yes, at that moment he is playing this part (I think the Bran greenseer is also the One god of the 7, so he can/will alternatively incarnate all the differents parts of the 7, and also attribute them to some people the Bran boy loved, and perhaps also some people he can pardon : for example Sansa is the Maid, Arya is the Stranger, I have also the idea of Theon as a possible transformation into a Crone figure, and Davos as the Mother, and Sandor as the Father, and Brienne the Warrior, but it is not the subject of the thread)

 

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

This may be why Catelyn makes that strange statement to Jon, 'It should've been you' when Bran is lying in a coma.  In the past, someone else took the fall for the bird.  This time around, the bird took the fall instead of his brother (remember the chess analogy with the rook making the 'castling' move to save the king).

Yes, I think so. But I also think that Catelyn (and after her LSH) has (will) end differently = accepting Jon as a legitime heir, even if he doesn't become king (it doesn't matter here, the important thing is that Catelyn in the present makes the end of the story different from the story of the past and won't kill the bastard for revenge) and punishing the true guilties (that's also why the perspective to punish the Frey is very interesting, especially if in the past a queen mother had played the same part than the old lord Walder at the red wedding)

The feast scene makes me think to the feast scene that Daenerys sees in the House of the Undying.

 

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I think your double-crossing 'trueborn' vs. 'bastard' star-crossed lover scenario is very interesting.  Maybe you should put your ideas together with a few substantiating quotes from the text, to make the case a bit tighter, in a thread of your own?  Sometimes I don't always know where you're getting these indications from, although your posts are always thought-provoking and entertaining!

I must put it in french first ! But thanks for encouragements ^^

[GloubieBoulga]

10 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

The gift of mercy to save a greenseer the suffering of burning.  That's the only circumstance in which it would make sense for Jon to kill Bran.

I think the same and Daenerys with dragonfire and Jon with a dagger could act together (ice+fire) in that manner. I just can't imagine Jon killing Bran if Bran doesn't beg for it himself. It can't be an act of revenge precisely because the "first sacrifice" at Winterfell was probably a revenge act.

 

Sorry for the double-posting, I have pushed a bit the reflexion : if the "queen mother" of the origins was a kind of Cersei and had no trueborn children from the old Stark king, it significates that the sons haven't the "wolf's blood", so the 3rd son can't be the "wolf". I had speculated about the bastard representing the "ram" character, but I think now that we must reverse : the 3rd son (the one who became at the end the "heir" of the wolf) was the ram :

We have the example of Ramsay, who is a hunter and wants desperatly to be a trueborn and a wolf. There is a lot of parallelism with Jon Snow, also. At the end of ADWD, Ramsay is "trueborn lord of Winterfell". I wonder if the weirwood who is laughing during the wedding with the fake Arya is Bran : Theon don't recognize him, but he recognize his face and his voice later. What if it were the soul of the first bastard (but trueborn wolf) who were laughing, seeing the same story he saw in the past, with the Stark paying an old debt ? And a new victim of the curse/the trap ?

Ok, that significate also that the "blood wolf" doesn't come originaly from the ancestors of the Stark, but from the "first sacrificied". Ironicaly, when Jon at the beginning of AGOT in Winterfell explains that the bastard don't mix with the trueborn, the true "bastards" weren't only Cersei's children, but also all the Starks. 

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"Most times," Jon answered in a flat voice. "But tonight Lady Stark thought it might give insult to the royal family to seat a bastard among them." (Jon I, AGOT)

Interesting that the segregation is attributed to "Lady Stark". 

The "bastard stuff" is indeed with all Stark children : Arya who asks herself if she is trueborn, Sansa becoming Alayne Stone, Bran teached by the great bastard BR (who also hated one brother and loved another one, and killed a third but never hide this kin(g)slaying). Will we see something like that with Rickon at Skagos (the horned goats island) ? It is more subtile with Robb, but I think this is suggested with the fact he goes to the south, with his rivality with Joffrey (he places himself on the same plan, in a way), or with the fact that he can't bear his crown and perhaps the wedding with Jeyne Westerling 

 

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"Let me give you some counsel, bastard," Lannister said. "Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you." (Tyrion to Jon, in AGOT, Jon I)

What if the Stark have precisely hidden and forget their bastard origin ? (or have never known it, like Joffrey)

Edit : is it possible that Robb died because he didn't really experiment the "bastard life" ? And that the Stark children who will experiment this (true) identity have a chance to survive ?