Arya will become Queen

[Winter's Cold]

12 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

So Jaime, who attempted to kill a child because that child saw him f***ing his sister, who attacks Ned in the streets and kills his men as petty revenge, and commits treason on a regular basis is on a redemption arc, despite never showing a hint of regret for these actions.  Sandor, who killed a boy accused of assaulting the Crown Prince, shows regret at later dates, and really does nothing else all series but be a whole lot of bark but very little bite, is not on a redemption arc, even as he continues to show that regret well after parting from Sansa?

Indeed. Sandor starts of as Joffrey's goon but he ends up protecting both Sansa and Arya and he ultimately becomes a better person. Jaime starts off by committing treason and attempting to murder a child to cover up his crime. As recently as AFFC, he threatens to throw Edmure Tully's newborn child into Riverrun with a trebuchet.

[The Fresh PtwP]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Oh wow. It may be dozen times, it may be half a dozen times. It comes up pretty much every chapter throughout aCoK.

It is out of the norm. The way it's phrased, means familiarity. It means she watches him far more than anybody else. It's as out of the norm as it is noticing he smells of fresh soap while she's observing gold cloaks. Arya fears for her life and that of others. One would expect all her focus to be on the gold cloaks, not on how soapy Gendry smells on top of it. That she is perceptive does not negate that she is extremely perceptive of Gendry more than anyone else around her. This extreme perceptiveness is typical though when someone's attracted and drawn to someone. It's part of the bonding process, a type of imprinting. And it's why she becomes so familiar with him that she can finish his sentences. What he thinks, what he does, how he looks, what he says has weight with her, even when he annoys her.

Ok let me see this dozen of times she scrutinizes his facial expressions, I'll wait.

I did a quick search and found two "that" look moments and one borderline.

I'm not denying that she is attracted to him, she is. It's not just a crush it's written as more than that, but it isn't this head-over heels thing you suggest either. She has definite affection for him but does not fawn over everything he does, and clearly isn't in love with him (...yet). Is it a possibility? Yeah! Are they at that stage yet? Sorry but no.

It isn't out of the norm, she mentions his facial expressions two solid times (one iffy time) a whopping one more time than Dayne or Anguy for that matter.

What is out of the norm is her straight up creeping on him at Harrenhal. She likes him but I think you're reaching a bit to make this love angle work.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 28/2/2017 at 5:48 AM, kissdbyfire said:

This x 1,000,000,000.

They grew up believing they are siblings. And that won't change magically at some point just b/c they'll learn they're first cousins.

YES! What people think? That the moment they will learn about their DNA they will be "Great! Let's get married!"?

[kissdbyfire]

42 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

YES! What people think? That the moment they will learn about their DNA they will be "Great! Let's get married!"?

Seems that way, and imo that's really, really odd. 

Also, a lot of the Jonrya stuff is linked to that outline, and that's also very odd if you ask me. The story we are reading is so very different from that outline! And of course cousins who grow up as siblings should and would continue to feel like siblings, even after learning they're first cousins - which is also gross anyway. Martin doesn't paint incest as somethIng good, just look at the most fucked up relationship in the books, Jaime and Cersei. My impression is that Martin, instead of having a tragic love story between cousins who think hey are siblings and then learn they are cousins - and one a secret prince!  - which is so troppish and boring and has been done a zillion times, like that outline, decided to give the incestuous relationship to the Lannister twins, and made that relationship so fucked up and toxic it's not even funny. 

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

Ok let me see this dozen of times she scrutinizes his facial expressions, I'll wait.

I did a quick search and found two "that" look moments and one borderline.

Quotes:

Quote

He blinked at her, startled. Strands of thick black hair, still wet from the bathhouse, fell across his deep blue eyes. "I'd hurt you."

"Gold cloaks." His face closed up tight.

The Bull scowled at her. "Why should she want you? You're nothing but a little gutter rat!" (aCoK, Arya II)

These seem like simple facial descriptions an author would use to describe character interaction. Except, regardless of Arya's reminder to see with her eyes, we very rarely see those facial descriptions being uses on other characters, in that same chapter. Aside from the Bull, we get some referenes about Yoren's angry face. We don't get it for Hot Pie or Lommy or the Gold Cloaks. George leaves the reader free to imagine what a face might look like or have as an expression via dialogue, not by description much. Gendry stands out to this manner of description via Arya's POV from the start.

Quote

Arya would watch him polish the metal with an oilcloth, shining it so bright you could see the flames of the cookfire reflected in the steel. Yet he never actually put it on his head.

Arya was given a whole leg, since it was her rabbit. She shared it with Gendry.

"Yoren said wait." Gendry's voice sounded hollow. When Arya turned to look, she saw that he was wearing his helm, all shiny steel and great curving horns. (aCoK, Arya III)

Whatever the original rational cause is, Arya's paying particular attention to Gendry. She shares half her self caught rabbit leg with him. She instantly notices a difference in the sound of his voice and is compelled to look. She doesn't do this with other characters. Not even Yoren who saved her and got her out of KL. She might remark on Hot Pie's attitude now that he has a sword, but she's not "watching him".

Quote

When the food was ready, Arya ate a chicken leg and a bit of onion. No one talked much, not even Lommy. Gendry went off by himself afterward, polishing his helm with a look on his face like he wasn't even there. The crying girl whimpered and wept, but when Hot Pie offered her a bit of goose she gobbled it down and looked for more.

"I don't think they care, Arry," Gendry whispered back.

And she looked at Ser Amory's face, the way Syrio had taught her to look, and she saw that he was right.

 

Arya grabbed Gendry by the arm. "He said go," she shouted, "the barn, the way out." Through the slits of his helm, the Bull's eyes shone with reflected fire. He nodded. (aCoK, Arya IV)

A new facial expression of Gendry. He's the sole on in that paragraph whose face she consciously notes. Lommy, Weasel and Hot Pie? Nothing. We only get to read what they do or don't do. 

Then we learn that with Ser Amory she first has to remind herself to look at Ser Amory the way Syrio taught her, and she notes indeed that Ser Amory's face has an expression of calousness.

In the same chapter, aside from Ser Amory's facial expression and Gendry's, we are notified of Yoren scowling once and frowning once and Hot Pie widening his eyes. Again Gendry's facial expression is lingered on more elaborate than that.
 

Quote

 

Gendry frowned. "Knights and lordlings, they take each other captive and pay ransoms, but they don't care if the likes of you yield or not."

Gendry looked fierce when he scowled. His beard had grown in thick and black as briar. "I said, no fires."

Gendry was in no mood to hear it. "Quiet, both of you, I need to think what to do." He always looked pained when he tried to think, like it hurt him something fierce.

"No, I'll go," Arya said. "You're too noisy."

Gendry got that look on his face. "We'll both go."

Without waiting for an answer, Gendry donned his steel helm and walked off.

Arya had to scamper to keep up. Gendry was five years older and a foot taller than she was, and long of leg as well. For a while he said nothing, just plowed on through the trees with an angry look on his face, making too much noise. But finally he stopped and said, "I think Lommy's going to die."

 

She darted away, bare feet silent in the grass. When she glanced back over her shoulder, he was watching her with that pained look on his face that meant he was thinking. He's probably thinking that he shouldn't be letting m'lady go stealing food. Arya just knew he was going to be stupid now. (aCok, Arya V)

 

In this chapter aside from the above we are once told that Lommy make a disgusted face when Arya proposes to eat worms and that Hot Pie looks pale when captured. In contrast we have 6 facial descriptions for Gendry, one that reveals Arya is immensely familiar with certain expressions that she can say think "always", then there's a "that look" but we're not told what look exactly, but the situation suggests it would be a protective look. Note also how not even his helm can mask his facial expressions for her, even though we were told his helm has a 'slit' for his eyes. She can read his facial expression even behind the helm, through just a slit of his eyes - know when's angry, know he makes a pained look. There is no one else she observes so much as him in order to be able to do that.

Next chapter skips on Gendry. We get Hot Pie making big eyes like moons when she's forced to squat and reveal she's a girl. And we have Weese and his "gimlet eye". Chapter after that Gendry isn't featured. She does linger on Tywin's face - a lord's face, like Cat would tell Ned to don his lord's face, and there's Jaquen's perfume (who we know she considers handsome).

Quote

When she spied Gendry, his bare chest was slick with sweat, but the blue eyes under the heavy black hair had the stubborn look she remembered. (aCoK, Arya VIII)

We see him only shortly and once for the first time in 3 chapters, and immediately George reminds us that Arya knows a different set of typical "looks" of Gendry. Other than that we have a frowning Weese once, and her wondering whether Rorge looks afraid when she mentions Jaquen's name.

 

Quote

 

As she passed the armory, Arya heard the ring of a hammer. A deep orange glow shone through the high windows. She climbed to the roof and peeked down. Gendry was beating out a breastplate. When he worked, nothing existed for him but metal, bellows, fire. The hammer was like part of his arm. She watched the play of muscles in his chest and listened to the steel music he made. He's strong, she thought. As he took up the long-handled tongs to dip the breastplate into the quenching trough, Arya slithered through the window and leapt down to the floor beside him.

He did not seem surprised to see her. "You should be abed, girl." (aCoK, Arya IX)

 

 

Not about faces that Gendry makes, but the passage makes clear that she has watched him work often since the previous chapter, otherwise she wouldn't know that nothing else exists for him, and she has done this often enough for him not to be surprised to look at him and come down through the window at odd hours when he's working.

For the 9th chapter, Arya notices Ser Amory frowning and thinks he doesn't look pleased. She also makes several references and interpretations on the faces Jaquen makes and looks he gives her. None for Hot Pie, though she hangs around there often to pick food.

In the last chapter she can feel Rorge's eyes crawling over her. That Elmar's eyes get big as boiled eggs when she mentions leeches. She knows they scare him and she mentions a scornful look (likely in reference to his arrogant attitude around her whenever she has to work closely with him). She studies Roose's face, the man she must serve. We have a mention of a Gendry frown and him not having been asleep deeply when he opens his eyes. Again nothing for Hot Pie.

So, when it comes to facial expressions this is the order of mentioning, from most to least familiarity, mentioning and variation

1. Gendry
2. Yoren
3. Jaquen
4. Roose
5. Ser Amory
6. Elmar / Hot Pie / Rorge / Weese / Tywin
7. Lommy

Almost all the others are people with a power over her: people she has to please or stay out of trouble with, and that includes Yoren. Alternatively a second group are people who are helping her or can help her, such as Jaquen and Yoren. The last group are children, people she could seek empathy with or identify herself with, and of these Gendry stands out and she knows and studies his face far more than anybody else.

 

[a black swan]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Seems that way, and imo that's really, really odd. 

Also, a lot of the Jonrya stuff is linked to that outline, and that's also very odd if you ask me. The story we are reading is so very different from that outline! And of course cousins who grow up as siblings should and would continue to feel like siblings, even after learning they're first cousins - which is also gross anyway. Martin doesn't paint incest as somethIng good, just look at the most fucked up relationship in the books, Jaime and Cersei. My impression is that Martin, instead of having a tragic love story between cousins who think hey are siblings and then learn they are cousins - and one a secret prince!  - which is so troppish and boring and has been done a zillion times, like that outline, decided to give the incestuous relationship to the Lannister twins, and made that relationship so fucked up and toxic it's not even funny. 

It's not based on the Outline. But whatever.

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

It's not based on the Outline. But whatever.

That's why I said, "a lot of the Jonrya stuff is linked to that outline", and not "everything Jonrya comes from that outline". There's a big difference there.

And "whatever" is not really an argument. 

 

[Winter's Cold]

The clues for a potential relationship between Jon and Arya were present in the books before the outline leaked. Here's a thread about a potential Jonrya relationship from before the outline leaked. 

 

[The Fresh PtwP]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Quotes:

These seem like simple facial descriptions an author would use to describe character interaction. Except, regardless of Arya's reminder to see with her eyes, we very rarely see those facial descriptions being uses on other characters, in that same chapter. Aside from the Bull, we get some referenes about Yoren's angry face. We don't get it for Hot Pie or Lommy or the Gold Cloaks. George leaves the reader free to imagine what a face might look like or have as an expression via dialogue, not by description much. Gendry stands out to this manner of description via Arya's POV from the start.

Whatever the original rational cause is, Arya's paying particular attention to Gendry. She shares half her self caught rabbit leg with him. She instantly notices a difference in the sound of his voice and is compelled to look. She doesn't do this with other characters. Not even Yoren who saved her and got her out of KL. She might remark on Hot Pie's attitude now that he has a sword, but she's not "watching him".

A new facial expression of Gendry. He's the sole on in that paragraph whose face she consciously notes. Lommy, Weasel and Hot Pie? Nothing. We only get to read what they do or don't do. 

Then we learn that with Ser Amory she first has to remind herself to look at Ser Amory the way Syrio taught her, and she notes indeed that Ser Amory's face has an expression of calousness.

In the same chapter, aside from Ser Amory's facial expression and Gendry's, we are notified of Yoren scowling once and frowning once and Hot Pie widening his eyes. Again Gendry's facial expression is lingered on more elaborate than that.
 

In this chapter aside from the above we are once told that Lommy make a disgusted face when Arya proposes to eat worms and that Hot Pie looks pale when captured. In contrast we have 6 facial descriptions for Gendry, one that reveals Arya is immensely familiar with certain expressions that she can say think "always", then there's a "that look" but we're not told what look exactly, but the situation suggests it would be a protective look. Note also how not even his helm can mask his facial expressions for her, even though we were told his helm has a 'slit' for his eyes. She can read his facial expression even behind the helm, through just a slit of his eyes - know when's angry, know he makes a pained look. There is no one else she observes so much as him in order to be able to do that.

Next chapter skips on Gendry. We get Hot Pie making big eyes like moons when she's forced to squat and reveal she's a girl. And we have Weese and his "gimlet eye". Chapter after that Gendry isn't featured. She does linger on Tywin's face - a lord's face, like Cat would tell Ned to don his lord's face, and there's Jaquen's perfume (who we know she considers handsome).

We see him only shortly and once for the first time in 3 chapters, and immediately George reminds us that Arya knows a different set of typical "looks" of Gendry. Other than that we have a frowning Weese once, and her wondering whether Rorge looks afraid when she mentions Jaquen's name.

 

 

Not about faces that Gendry makes, but the passage makes clear that she has watched him work often since the previous chapter, otherwise she wouldn't know that nothing else exists for him, and she has done this often enough for him not to be surprised to look at him and come down through the window at odd hours when he's working.

For the 9th chapter, Arya notices Ser Amory frowning and thinks he doesn't look pleased. She also makes several references and interpretations on the faces Jaquen makes and looks he gives her. None for Hot Pie, though she hangs around there often to pick food.

In the last chapter she can feel Rorge's eyes crawling over her. That Elmar's eyes get big as boiled eggs when she mentions leeches. She knows they scare him and she mentions a scornful look (likely in reference to his arrogant attitude around her whenever she has to work closely with him). She studies Roose's face, the man she must serve. We have a mention of a Gendry frown and him not having been asleep deeply when he opens his eyes. Again nothing for Hot Pie.

So, when it comes to facial expressions this is the order of mentioning, from most to least familiarity, mentioning and variation

1. Gendry
2. Yoren
3. Jaquen
4. Roose
5. Ser Amory
6. Elmar / Hot Pie / Rorge / Weese / Tywin
7. Lommy

Almost all the others are people with a power over her: people she has to please or stay out of trouble with, and that includes Yoren. Alternatively a second group are people who are helping her or can help her, such as Jaquen and Yoren. The last group are children, people she could seek empathy with or identify herself with, and of these Gendry stands out and she knows and studies his face far more than anybody else.

 

You have a much looser opinion on familiar facial expressions than I do, most of these are just "looks" like a scowl or a frown (I didn't count those) but OK. You mention that in your first line so I'm not going to harp on it, except to say that (the bolded) is my general opinion on the "looks" you presented. I don't think it means as much as you do, but hey different readers different interpretations. I'm not convinced but you have some quotes that I overlooked...so kudos.

[sweetsunray]

7 minutes ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

You have a much looser opinion on familiar facial expressions than I do, most of these are just "looks" like a scowl or a frown (I didn't count those) but OK. You mention that in your first line so I'm not going to harp on it, except to say that (the bolded) is my general opinion on the "looks" you presented. I don't think it means as much as you do, but hey different readers different interpretations. I'm not convinced but you have some quotes that I overlooked...so kudos.

This is not just in Arya's POV but in many POVs. But George knows what he writes and when to write it, when it comes to descriptions. The food descriptions are kept mostly for Tyrion's chapters. Hair and beard descriptions are mostly kept and get greater focus in Cat's chapters. Dress in Sansa's. Elaborate and poetic reading of eyes in Jaime's. He does not elaborate on all of it for each POV all the time. In Arya's case he writes a lot of non-interpretive dialogue and what characters are doing, and preserves what the faces are doing for a limited number of characters.

[The Prince who was not pro]

If it happens, it has to be jon the king in the end, gendry is a very secondary character.

[GhostNymeria]

12 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

YES! What people think? That the moment they will learn about their DNA they will be "Great! Let's get married!"?

Where have anyone here suggested it would happen that way? Or that any potential non-platonic feelings for each other would be an easy and happy process for them? Of course they would be grossed out by their own feelings and try to suppress and ignore it, even if they know they are only cousins. No one is saying Arya and Jon falling in love going to be some great romance. It would be uncomfortable for both the characters and the readers.

[Orphalesion]

On 03/03/2017 at 8:34 AM, JonSnow4President said:

So Jaime, who attempted to kill a child because that child saw him f***ing his sister, who attacks Ned in the streets and kills his men as petty revenge, and commits treason on a regular basis is on a redemption arc, despite never showing a hint of regret for these actions.  Sandor, who killed a boy accused of assaulting the Crown Prince, shows regret at later dates, and really does nothing else all series but be a whole lot of bark but very little bite, is not on a redemption arc, even as he continues to show that regret well after parting from Sansa? 

She doesn't execute him for f***ing a whore.  She executes him for desertion of the Night's Watch, which is a capital offense. It's a desire to see justice done, which has been a fundamental aspect of her character since the death of Mycah.  You may not agree with the pseudo-medieval justice being employed, but she is no different than any other vigilante hero with regards to Daeron. 

1) Wasn't saying that it wasn't a sort of redemption arc, just that I found his character pretty pathetic.

2)That's what I was saying. He broke the batshit vow to stay on the Wall, by leaving, didn't he? "I will live and die at this most awful place in all of Westeros blablabla"

She has no business dealing what she believes is "justice" and it's hypocritical of her to enforce what she thinks is the proper way of living on others, when she herself (at least at this point) plans on living outside of what society expects of her. The guy wasn't in Westeros, the guy didn't harm anybody, she wasn't a judge or a lady with invested with juridical power.

And what makes you think calling her a vigilante makes the whole thing better in my eyes.

Plus you could argue whether a vow you are forced to take should even be binding.

It is not worse than what many other characters in the series do, but some of the others, who might have done worse things are more entertaining to read for me and/or we aren't supposed to see it as a good thing.

[sweetsunray]

6 hours ago, The Prince who was not pro said:

If it happens, it has to be jon the king in the end, gendry is a very secondary character.

Where does it say that POV characters can only end up together? Where does it say that only POV characters will be some type of ruler?

[Philokles]

37 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

"I will live and die at this most awful place in all of Westeros blablabla"

Hardly. He was sent south to spend his days singing to the nobility. Pretty much his life before he was sent to the wall, with the added cachet of being there on official business. 

 

37 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

The guy wasn't in Westeros,

Never an issue for anyone when doing something outside of Westeros. Even Ned doesn't think/mention it as a reason why Dany should not be assassinated.

 

37 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

the guy didn't harm anybody,

Other than Lord Rowan's daughter, Sam, Gilly, the baby, Aemon, the Night's Watch for not sending them more desperately needed recruits and the entire world for not caring enough about the impending disaster to warn everyone.

 

37 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

she wasn't a judge or a lady with invested with juridical power.

Pretty much all the nobility and even their bastards are. Walder Rivers was sent to judge cases. If he has the right to, then there is no reason why the daughter/sister of Lord Stark (and as far as she knows, rightful owner of Winterfell) should not.

 

37 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Plus you could argue whether a vow you are forced to take should even be binding.

He was not forced into it. He could have been castrated instead. Whether the decision to send him to the wall was fair, we don't know, but if not then it is Mathis Rowan's fault not Arya's.

[GhostNymeria]

7 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Plus you could argue whether a vow you are forced to take should even be binding.

You could argue a lot of points about morality in Asoiaf, but it all comes down to our personal opinions and biases of what actions are more right or wrong than the others. 

18 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

It is not worse than what many other characters in the series do, but some of the others, who might have done worse things are more entertaining to read for me and/or we aren't supposed to see it as a good thing.

I don't think we are supposed to see Arya's actions as a "good thing", nor do I believe anyone suggested that here. Arya, as well as all the other caracters, is a grey character in a series where the author has made a focus of problematizing the complexity of morality and good vs. bad.

Also, now you're basically saying you single out Arya's actions as more unforgivable than actions you consider as "worse things" made by other characters, because you find her more boring to read about. By doing this you made all your previous arguments in this thread insignificant, since your whole point in your arguments was about disliking her because of her moral choices. Why even argue about morality when you find worse actions less condemnable because the characters are more entertaining? It really just comes down to you disliking her mainly because you think she's more boring than other characters, which is fine. 

[a black swan]

11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

That's why I said, "a lot of the Jonrya stuff is linked to that outline", and not "everything Jonrya comes from that outline". There's a big difference there.

And "whatever" is not really an argument. 

 

Hardly none of it is based on the Outline. There were people seeing this connection before the Outline was ever leaked. "Whatever" is just an infliction of knowing this argument will go nowhere. It's been done to death I guess. lol 

Like all the jokes about Jon never seeing Arya as his cousin but his sibling. Like Jon hasn't blurred that idea with his unusual reaction to Longspear. Apparently, technicalities matter to him. Like @GhostNymeria explained it won't be as simple to transition if that's where George takes the story. 

 

 

[a black swan]

13 minutes ago, GhostNymeria said:

You could argue a lot of points about morality in Asoiaf, but it all comes down to our personal opinions and biases of what actions are more right or wrong than the others. 

I don't think we are supposed to see Arya's actions as a "good thing", nor do I believe anyone suggested that here. Arya, as well as all the other caracters, is a grey character in a series where the author has made a focus of problematizing the complexity of morality and good vs. bad.

Also, now you're basically saying you single out Arya's actions as more unforgivable than actions you consider as "worse things" made by other characters, because you find her more boring to read about. By doing this you made all your previous arguments in this thread insignificant, since your whole point in your arguments was about disliking her because of her moral choices. Why even argue about morality when you find worse actions less condemnable because the characters are more entertaining? It really just comes down to you disliking her mainly because you think she's more boring than other characters, which is fine. 

Very nice! The definition of double standards. 

[PCK]

If the plan for Jon is to be the story's final occupant of the throne, he's going to need a marriage with a strong army who can back his claim. This would be coming off the heels of someone else claiming the throne by being Rhaegar's son. Politically, Arya would give Jon nothing he wasn't already going to get from Bran or Rickon. He's a Stark and they'd follow him most likely.

[The Fattest Leech]

2 minutes ago, PCK said:

If the plan for Jon is to be the story's final occupant of the throne, he's going to need a marriage with a strong army who can back his claim. This would be coming off the heels of someone else claiming the throne by being Rhaegar's son. Politically, Arya would give Jon nothing he wasn't already going to get from Bran or Rickon. He's a Stark and they'd follow him most likely.

And Robb already wrote Jon in to his will, which should be on its way to its final destination soon.

To strengthen the clan, you "steal" from afar, not your own village.