Arya will become Queen

[a black swan]

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

A lot of characters dreamed of flying, like Tyrion (who desperately wanted to ride a dragon, a much closer Targ connection) and Sansa, who wished that she had wings so that she could fly away. It doesn't make either of them Alysanne 2.0, and nor does it bring Arya any closer to Alysanne.

This one point doesn't make anyone a 2.0. Like I said earlier, you isolate little things without looking at the big picture. Arya wants to both fly AND has a fascination for dragons. A stronger correlation than Sansa in this area, yet you fail to give it any merit for Arya? Again, you have zero desire to see any valid point in this argument, which you make even more evident in your later comments. 

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Yeah, except that beast is a wolf, not a dragon, and there are actual dragonrider Targs in this story...i.e. Dany.

That doesn't discount the fact that both girls (Arya/Alysanne) have a deep bond with the mythical animal of their House sigil. Which was my point. Coupled with the fact that Arya has already experienced a connection with dead dragons, and has harboured a long desire to see a living one. 

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She also wanted to be the High Septon. And while Alysanne performed her role admirably, we don't know whether it was something she ever particularly wanted for herself.

Why does that matter? She was a King's Counsellor and she was her King's most valued adviser. Whether she wanted it for herself or not - it still happened. And right now, Arya is learning skills that would make her a great King's Counsellor. Ned told Arya she would maybe give birth to a High Septon. Did you read that part of my post? Alysanne has a connection to the faith through her children as well. One becoming a Septa and the other running off across the narrow sea (something Arya ended up doing). 

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Not like Margaery, who has engaged in charitable endeavours which made her extremely popular with the smallfolk, or Dany, who chose policies designed to benefit the smallfolk. Thus my point that Alysanne doesn't neatly map on to any single ASOIAF character: if anyone, she's a mishmash of Dany, Margaery, and Sansa.

Marg may have this similarity, but how does that discount Arya's connection to the smallfolk? Why can't both be valid? That's the problem with your analysis: You give ZERO credit to Arya in any of these areas for very obvious reasons. You don't deny Arya's connection with the smallfolk yet you pretend like that isn't a commonality with Alysanne. 

 

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The problem with your argument is that you're speculating that Arya will do something once she's in Alysanne's position that will make her more like Alysanne than any other female ASOIAF character. Now, she may, and she may not, but she's never been in Alysanne's position to date, and she's using her current freedom to learn how to murder people more effectively, so...

Her current "freedom".  Sure. An 11 year old girl who has no home to got to, is living a continent away, orphaned and without any support beyond the organisation she has chosen to learn from. 

Yes. Killing people is all she is learning how to do. ... what? I can't. 

 

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More importantly, you're forgetting or ignoring that there are actual characters in ASOIAF who are currently doing the same things Alysanne did in a way that resembles Alysanne, or resemble Alysanne physically more than Arya ever will.

That's exactly what you're doing with Arya. Ignoring her connections, using binary examples that don't even discount Arya's parallels. I don't see what point you're making? That's not even mentioning all the points you chose to ignore and not comment on.  I noticed. 

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The fact that you are speculating on what Arya may do in the future and taking that as a given rather than looking at what other characters are currently doing reinforces my point: Alysanne is a mishmash of other characters who doesn't map on to any single character neatly, and nothing about her screams "Arya" to me.

You don't even deny that if in a position of power, would it make sense to think Arya would champion the cause of the smallfolks? Or move women's rights in a more positive direction? These are views and experiences Arya has already demonstrated at this young age. After everything she has been through - assuming she takes on a position as Queen, as we have been discussing in this thread, why wouldn't she be similar (NOT EXACTLY LIKE) to Alysanne? You won't entertain that thought. It doesn't fit your agenda. 

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Right now, she's devoting herself to learning how to be an assassin and values that the most, so I think it's a stretch to assume that her values and priorities will magically align with Alysanne's in the future.

Sure. Because that's the end to her story, right? What she is doing right now is all she will amount to. I'm sure that's what you hope will happen. LOL

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Isn't that what you're doing? Ignoring Sansa, Dany and Margaery's parallels with Alysanne and engaging instead in flights of fancy about how Arya will be the most amazing queen of all at some point in the far future because she told her dad she wanted to build castles when she was nine?

No. What you did was dig up singular parallels here or there to make your point and ignore everything about Arya. That doesn't discount the many details I have listed (some of which you chose to not respond to) that correlate with Arya.

So making the connection to Alysanne, suddenly means Arya will be the most amazing Queen ever? Who the heck said that besides you? Uh. Your true colors are showing. 

Alysanne became Queen at 12 years old. Far far in the future indeed! "because she wanted to build castles..." Yup. Great Job Newstar. That's exactly what I argued. 

 

"So GRRM himself describes Elaena in her youth as an Arya clone"

Oh Gawd.

It shows you don't really know Arya's character at all. Would SHY be a way of describing Arya's personality? You apparently think so. Arya is said to look like her aunt Lyanna so the idea that Arya would grow up to be beautiful is expected and already evident as she grows older. Her legs "growing longer by the day ... A water dancer needs good legs." - her pretty face and the growing looks and stares...etc. Arya grows more graceful both in mind and behaviour as her story progresses. Her training isn't complete and she has yet to flower. It would be very interesting to see how she is viewed in Westeros once she returns. 

Elaena's crowning beauty was her hair. Arya's was described a bird's nest, matted, shredded to the scalp until she bled, and currently in Braavos her hair is gone, shaved off every morning. Elaena was also a follower and unlike her sister who, "escaped her confinements thrice, disguised as either a servant or one of the smallfolk" Elaena never even tried. Arya is more like Daena. 

And so on....

 

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There are ASOIAF characters whose arcs are about politics and learning how to rule, but Arya isn't one of them. Assuming those characters out of existence or erasing them to draw tenuous connections between Arya and a past Targ queen is unfair to them.

This is exactly what you're doing.... but to Arya. 

 

[a black swan]

2 hours ago, Arya-Jon said:

Doubt she will go openly to Bravos as queen. Going openly does have advantages,with knights protecting you and all that. But it also paints a target on your head (Due to her killing/deserting faceless men/ westeros-iron bank conflict if it happens at that time or any other reason) If she is smart, she would use faces and go to Bravos, when she is queen.

I think Arya would make an unconventional Queen. Like Aegon trusted Rhaeyns to travel alone - who was also very independent and adventurous - I could see an equally indulgent King give Arya similar leeway and freedom.  

Lets assume she leaves the FM/Braavos on amicable terms (like the show suggests, and George would more effectively write) - would she need to fear the FM if she were to return? If they wanted her dead, they would go to her and finish the job. This suggests they didn't. 

I agree with you, she could return using a face for whatever important reason that drew her there. 

Didn't...

Spoiler

say something about Arya only taking "a part" in the story? Suggesting she won't be the center of it. 

I'm just happy Arya lives. That stupid second life in a wolf theory is sooo annoying. lol

 

[Arya-Jon]

1 hour ago, DutchArya said:

I think Arya would make an unconventional Queen. Like Aegon trusted Rhaeyns to travel alone - who was also very independent and adventurous - I could see an equally indulgent King give Arya similar leeway and freedom.  

Lets assume she leaves the FM/Braavos on amicable terms (like the show suggests, and George would more effectively write) - would she need to fear the FM if she were to return? If they wanted her dead, they would go to her and finish the job. This suggests they didn't. 

I agree with you, she could return using a face for whatever important reason that drew her there. 

Didn't...

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say something about Arya only taking "a part" in the story? Suggesting she won't be the center of it. 

I'm just happy Arya lives. That stupid second life in a wolf theory is sooo annoying. lol

 

I dont think any good king would want to risk the life of any member of the royal family including himself.  Rhaenys had a dragon! So it is different. There the king seeks to intimidate the enemy ruler by using the dragons for which he needs a rider. Targs then did not like to share their dragons with non Targs. So few available options. With respect to fighting , a wise king fights because by fighting,he is giving his troops motivation. He is showing them that he can fight for them, so they should fight for him. Moreover he has usually recieved the best military training. But in general the wise move is to avoid risks

If he is sending Arya on missions to Bravos, I feel he is being rash. Yes Arya can take good care of herself. But there are so many enemies to the throne. There is no ransom as precious as a queen. The queen is the king's honor. Why risk it. Why even let the 1% chance of death be risked? Val is expendable to Jon. So is Davos and others. Arya is not the same. Now the danger is not only faceless men . But anyone who want to make quick bucks by ransoming you. Failure to protect the queen is also humiliating to the king/kingdom.

If Jon or whoever is the king is rash it is a different matter. But normally it would be Arya who would be the instigator. She would put on a faceless mask and go and destroy the threat, if it is in Bravos. I doubt she would try to even take permission. She would just run off. And after giving some sleepless nights to the king, she would return. And the king's BP would get back to normal.

Spoiler

I think most who are familiar with George and his work know that Arya is the centre of the story and not just a part. There are many quotes from him and Benioff which indicate that. 

 

[shardofNarsil]

On 3/2/2017 at 8:13 PM, Orphalesion said:

Personally I find Sandor pretty pathetic, he played Joffrey's bloodhound, killing children for the little psychopath and only stopped because he wanted into Sansa's small clothes.

Sandor is attracted to Sansa not  beacause of any sexual desire but rather her naivety and innocence ,Sandor himself has never known love and is driven by his hate towards his brother and he deals with it by hating everyone around him but then he finds Sansa and sees her innocence, a part of him wants to preserve this innocence but another part wants to shatter her delusions for her own sake.

In Sansa he sees the innocence he lost the day Gregor burned him and then saw him get knighted by Rhaegar himself.He put on the hound's mask to show the world that he doesn't care,that he doesn't have a heart  but then he sees Sansa and is reminded of his childhood ,how he had wanted to play with the toy knight and the aftermath under Gregor's shadow. Somewhere in his heart he wants Sansa's world to be true .

He sees how Sansa and Arya cared for their family ,their friends something he never experienced in his whole life and something he admires somewhere inside.Sansa and Arya reminds him of his childhood dreams,dreams that were crushed in an instant by Gregor's malice.But Sansa's compassion put a dent in the hound's armor and put him on this new path ,after all everyone needs some love even the hound.

[The Exiled Septa]

All right .......i dont want to be rude really but i dont get it why any fan will support this theory and i dont know why you complicate things so much!

Its is so obvious in the books that Arya loves Jon as a brother and Jon loves Arya as a sister there is absolutely nothing that hits on the contary.....Okey there are evidences about Arya ending up as a lords wife( i wont say queen becouse this is another huge topic that i strongly believe will never happen)but nothing  really links between a Jon and Arya romance.For me the person who is the most likely candinate for that role is Gedry but even if he is not i believe that the chances of Arya and Jon marriege are -100%!

Sorry if im being agressive but i find very appaling this theory and im sorry for the bad english too 

[Arya-Jon]

43 minutes ago, Valedina said:

nothing  really links between a Jon and Arya romance.

 Marriage does not need to be initiated by romance. For instance Jon may not want that Catelyn's grandchildren are robbed of their inheritance rights by his own children. So he may chose to marry Catelyn's daughter to avoid inheritance conflict. Direwolf mating is not impossible considering not many are left. This direwolf mating can lead to weird feeling of sexual arousal in Arya who is a warg (which would be disturbing and gross) But ultimately there are many ways it can go. And yeah its just a theory based on what we think is foreshadowing and we are just discussing it with the full knowledge that it may not happen. 

So chill

[Newstar]

4 hours ago, DutchArya said:

This  one point doesn't make anyone a 2.0. Like I said earlier, you isolate little things without looking at the big picture. Arya wants to both fly AND has a fascination for dragons.

My point is that the items you try to use for comparison between Arya and Alysanne are so "generic"--using your words--that they are shared by any number of characters, and the specific characters who more closely match Alysanne are not Arya.

Lots of ASOIAF characters have mythical bonds with beasts, even the "mythical animal of their House sigil," although only one in the current story has a mythical bond with a dragon.

Lots of ASOIAF characters think dragons are cool, although only one living character actually has the dragon blood to back it up.

Lots of ASOIAF characters wish they could fly, although only one rides a dragon.

Lots of ASOIAF female characters dislike the fate of women in ASOIAF society, although only a tiny handful do anything about it (Dany by halting the mass rape policy of the khalasar, e.g., which is very close to what Alysanne did with the first night policy.)

Lots of ASOIAF female characters are tall, blue-eyed, or high-cheekboned, although only two are all three (Sansa and Catelyn, possibly Val if GRRM has permanently decided that her eyes are blue and not grey).

Lots of ASOIAF female characters are independent and high-spirited: Arianne, Alys Karstark, Val, Ygritte, Margaery, Olenna, Mya Stone, the Sand Snakes, etc.

You dismissed my Sansa/Alysanne comparison--both are tall, are slender, have blue eyes, and have high cheekbones--by claiming that these descriptors are "generic," meaning anyone in ASOIAF could have them. 

First, you are 100% wrong about that, because in a cast of hundreds of female characters no one does have that particular combination of features outside Sansa and Cat (Val's close, but GRRM can't decide whether her eyes are grey or not), so those descriptors are not "generic."

Second, and more importantly, you fail to acknowledge that your attempts at comparison--mythical bond beast, desire for independence, political consciousness, etc.--are far more generic, since they are traits shared by multiple ASOIAF characters as I have said. There is absolutely nothing significant that you have mentioned about Alysanne's personality, appearance or values which is specific to Arya and to no other ASOIAF character, and the biographic similarities you have tried to draw--Ned tells Arya her son could be the High Septon, and Alysanne had a septa daughter--are so generic as to be nonexistent.

If Arya resembles Alysanne for these reasons, then so do multiple other characters, male and female, because the comparison points are so generic. Dany, Margaery and Sansa are much closer matches, which makes a good deal of sense, since they actually are queens (or would-be queens, in Sansa's case).

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Marg may have this similarity, but how does that discount Arya's connection to the smallfolk?

Because multiple characters share that "connection." She doesn't have the monopoly on caring about the smallfolk, and unlike Dany and Margaery, whose connection to the smallfolk is much more like Alysanne's (beloved for charitable endeavours and attempts at improving their lives through policies that promote their welfare), she's never been in a position to do anything about it. 

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You don't even deny that if in a position of power, would it make sense to think Arya would champion the cause of the smallfolks?

Because as I said, you're making assumptions on the basis that something that hasn't happened in the books, and which may never happen--Arya would be beloved by the smallfolk, just like Alysanne! Arya would put in policies to promote the smallfolk's welfare, just like Alysanne! Arya would love dragons, just like Alysanne!--to argue that Arya is the most like Alysanne. And to do that, you're ignoring the actual ASOIAF female characters who are doing what Alysanne did in a way where there do appear to be clear parallels established, such as Dany abolishing the mass rape practices of Drogo's khalasar. 

If your argument were correct, then Arya would resemble Alysanne in a way that was unmistakably and identifiably Arya, not Dany or Margaery or Sansa. Alysanne doesn't have any of that. You know who does? Elaena, whose physical description and personality matches Arya's far more closely than Alysanne's. Over and over again, Arya is described as skinny, all sharp knees and elbows, like Elaena ("angular"), and of course her inferior looks when compared to Sansa are revisited several times, much as Elaena is never as great a beauty as her sisters (Brienne in AFFC thinks that even Catelyn said that Arya lacked Sansa's beauty).

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"So GRRM himself describes Elaena in her youth as an Arya clone"

Yes, he uses the same language to describe them both, skinny and angular and outshone by their prettier sisters. Your point?

GRRM wrote the character description, and if you're correct that GRRM invokes historical parallels between ASOIAF POV characters and pre-ASOIAF Targs, Elaena's a much better fit than Alysanne, with whom Arya has nothing in common.

More generally, Arya seems to fall into a specific character type/look in the Planetos world: the small, sharp, angular, precocious, skinny, and fierce (usually dark-haired) girl...think Alys Karstark, Gwyneth Yronwood ("small, scrawny girl...clever though"), Nettles and Elaena, none of whom are or were queens. Nor, in general, are they great beauties. Alysanne doesn't fit any of that, and she never did as far as we know. 

On a side note, I tend to doubt the whole historical Targ comparison business, unless the comparisons are very explicit in the text (Robb=Daeron the Young Dragon, e.g.). Alysanne isn't even mentioned once in Arya's chapters, although she does link herself with Wenda the White Fawn. If there are subtextual parallels, it's to other "good queen" types like Dany and Margaery, not to Arya.

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 Would SHY be a way of describing Arya's personality?

Go back to the quote. "Shy and charming by turns." That means she's shy some of the time, and charming some of the time. Arya has shy moments--she's described as shy with Jon--and she has charming moments (running up to Ned with a handful of flowers).

2 hours ago, Arya-Jon said:

 Marriage does not need to be initiated by romance. For instance Jon may not want that Catelyn's grandchildren are robbed of their inheritance rights by his own children. So he may chose to marry Catelyn's daughter to avoid inheritance conflict.

If he were really that concerned about it, he would name his heir accordingly, not marry someone he didn't otherwise wish to marry. 

[Arya-Jon]

7 hours ago, Newstar said:

 

If he were really that concerned about it, he would name his heir accordingly, not marry someone he didn't otherwise wish to marry. 

Ultimately it is Grrm's story and not mine. So the question is whether his endgame is Arya and Jon marrying or not. Whether the foreshadowing mentioned by the OP is Grrm's intended foreshadowing is debatable. But if true, Jon Arya marrying is certainly among the many possiblities. (I think the foreshadowing is on point, but that's just my opinion)

So the question is how will Grrm get them to marry without romance.. And the answer is there are multiple ways he could do that

If it goes the way I think, with his possible love Dany dead, I think he would feel unfortunate in matters of love and would be more sullen then ever  after the joy of victory washes away. So he probably wont have a great motivation to seek out some other girl. He would just want to do what is best for the Starks and inheritance may be a small consideration. Arya herself may demand stuff like becoming the kingsguard or some crazy(for Sam not someone else) demand like staying unmarried for life. The way I visualize it , it is Samwell Tarly who plays matchmaker in this case and makes them realize that being together and married is best for them.  To Arya he may explain how becoming queen enables her to protect her brother/cousin the way Visenya could and she does not really need to become the kingsguard or stay unmarried.  To Jon he may explain that he sees him happiest when he is with his sister who now turns out to be his cousin. Sam as he wants Jon to be happy would urge him to make it permanent (I dont think he even needs to mention that cousin marriage is permitted as that is already understood and mentioning it would spoil the whole scene). I dont know whether Sam would connect this whole marriage thing to the song of ice and fire but he may ,being  the nerd he is.

I can imagine multiple ways in which the author can get Jon and Arya to marry without romance being a initiator and at the same time the story remains interesting. The idea I am mentioning about Samwell may not look so good to you guys as I am the one mentioning it and I am not a Grrm level writer. But if he writes  it, he can write it in a beautiful way. 

P.S I dont know whether this is relevant to the current discussion but Arya had saved Samwell's life in Bravos. I dont know whether marriage will or will not be a thing in which Samwell plays a role. But I am pretty sure Samwell and Arya will have some really important scenes together even if this marriage thing I mentioned does not happen.

[winter daughter]

9 hours ago, Arya-Jon said:

or instance Jon may not want that Catelyn's grandchildren are robbed of their inheritance rights by his own children. So he may chose to marry Catelyn's daughter to avoid inheritance conflict.

What about Bran? you never mention him. He is Ned Stark's son(unlike Jon) and the true heir to Winterfell. the only reason Robb decided to legitimize Jon was because he thought his true born brothers(and sister) were dead. We know he was wrong. Rickon is a minor character but Bran is one of the main characters and he is not going to remain in that tree forever.

what do you think Jon is going to do if he finds out he is not Ned Stark's son and that his son, Bran is alive?

[Arya-Jon]

10 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

 

what do you think Jon is going to do if he finds out he is not Ned Stark's son and that his son, Bran is alive?

My personal view is he would be lord of winterfell when Jon would be king of Westeros. I want him to end up with Meera Reed and it is possible that he may have kids despite his disability. We cannot rule that out. But- there is a chance he may not have kids. Ned had thought that he may never hold a son. Maybe Ned's thought is true (though it can be false). Also Ned told Arya that your children will be lords and princes and yes maybe a high septon. So it is possible that Arya and Jon's child may inherit Winterfell.  But that kid of Jon and Arya would not stay with Jon and Arya but with Bran and Meera Reed. They would raise him just like Ned raised Jon. Or Jon Arryn raised Ned Maybe with even more love. Unlike Catelyn , Meera Reed may actually love that kid. It would not necessarily be equal to a son of their own, but for all practical purposes it is. 

I dont think Jon would give give up kingship of the north to Bran as for plot purpose it is essential he(Jon) is king in the north when he meets Dany.

 

[a black swan]

6 hours ago, Newstar said:

Lots of ASOIAF characters have mythical bonds with beasts, even the "mythical animal of their House sigil," although only one in the current story has a mythical bond with a dragon.

Lots of ASOIAF characters think dragons are cool, although only one living character actually has the dragon blood to back it up.

Lots of ASOIAF characters wish they could fly, although only one rides a dragon.

Lots of ASOIAF female characters dislike the fate of women in ASOIAF society, although only a tiny handful do anything about it (Dany by halting the mass rape policy of the khalasar, e.g., which is very close to what Alysanne did with the first night policy.)

Lots of ASOIAF female characters are independent and high-spirited: Arianne, Alys Karstark, Val, Ygritte, Margaery, Olenna, Mya Stone, the Sand Snakes, etc.

Collectively ALL these things apply to Arya in the current cast of female characters. Which can't be said about any single person you pointed out individually. Don't you get that? Yet you claim Arya is *nothing* like Alysanne. I mean lol.

You're not even consistent in your analysis which just shows your true intentions are obvious. The comparisons to Elaena are not accurate to Arya. The description of skinny is generic as Arya is not the only one described as such. Dany, Asha, Gilly, and Alys are as well. And please be serious. Elaena's personality is not similar to Arya at all. You are reaching.

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More generally, Arya seems to fall into a specific character type/look in the Planetos world: the small, sharp, angular, precocious, skinny, and fierce (usually dark-haired) girl...think Alys Karstark, Gwyneth Yronwood ("small, scrawny girl...clever though"), Nettles and Elaena, none of whom are or were queens. Nor, in general, are they great beauties. Alysanne doesn't fit any of that, and she never did as far as we know. 

And nowhere in there do you include Arya's closest match in Lyanna Stark. The idea that Arya grows out of her awkward stage is alien to you. That Lyanna was described as a "child-woman" suggesting a similar fast maturing stage for Arya despite her young age. That this little girl grew up hearing everyone say Lyanna was beautiful - just doesn't matter to you? 

You keep coming back to physical appearance like Elaena looks anything like Arya - she doesn't - yet you have no problem ignoring that fact, yet the same can't be said about Alysanne? You really harp on about that point like it matters. 

Elaena's personality was described as either shy or charming. That's it? That's not Arya. Elaena was a follower like I said earlier. Arya was not. Elaena's crowning beauty was her hair. You're not even going to mention that point? In relation to Arya? Why would you. While her older sister escaped the Maidenvault 3 times disguised as a boy, what was Elaena doing? Nothing. Passive. Shy little thing. Yeah, that just screams Arya! 

I maintain the narrative and personal qualities that relate to Alysanne and Arya are far stronger than you're willing to admit. 

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Alysanne was described generally as a beautiful woman, and likely displayed this beauty at the time of her marriage to Jaehaerys.  Yet she was no delicate woman; Alysanne was a dragonrider who loved to fly, as well as a keen archer and hunter, someone who enjoyed physical activity; Intellectually as well, Alysanne could be a good match for Jaehaerys; Yandel calls her “keenly intelligent”. 

"The queen stayed there for a night.” Old Nan had told him the story, but Maester Luwin had confirmed most of it. “Alysanne, the wife of King Jaehaerys the Conciliator … The king had matters to discuss with his Warden of the North, and Alysanne grew bored, so she mounted her dragon Silverwing and flew north to see the Wall.” (“Jon V”, A Storm of Swords)

 

Her views on women are inline with Arya's expressed disillusionment and value of women. Interestingly, both Jon & Arya share an exchange in this area. 

Alyssane saw no reason why a man should be favored over a woman… (The World of Ice and Fire)

-

“The Lannisters are proud,” Jon observed. “You’d think the royal sigil would be sufficient, but no. He makes his mother’s House equal in honor to the king’s.”

“The woman is important too!” Arya protested. (Arya, A Game of Thrones)

 

Alysanne was stubborn and opinionated and held strong convictions. She was also beautiful, brave, free-spirited, charming and keenly intelligent. 

The thought of Arya resembling these qualities must really irk you.  

[Tralalala]

You should put crackpottery in the title,two lines,one in self-pity that he was the second son,and another trying to calm his child and you make it like a it's already done and about.

[winter daughter]

32 minutes ago, Arya-Jon said:

My personal view is he would be lord of winterfell when Jon would be king of Westeros.

So you think he will be the king of Westeros.Then why would he marry Arya?

Catelyn's children have no claim on the Iron Throne. so there is not going to be inheritance conflict between his children and Catelyn's.

 

32 minutes ago, Arya-Jon said:

I dont think Jon would give give up kingship of the north to Bran as for plot purpose it is essential he(Jon) is king in the north when he meets Dany.

But what about after the war? if he decides to keep the kingship of the north when Bran is present then he is a usurper.

 

[Arya-Jon]

2 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

.

 

But what about after the war? if he decides to keep the kingship of the north when Bran is present then he is a usurper.

 

 In the books he has not  reached the stage of being king in the north. I think the will will play an important role in the books. Otherwise whats the point of mentioning it? It will surely lead to something. If he is seeing/ hearing that Robb wants him to lead and has legitimized him, he will take it very seriously. I dont think the thought of being a usurper will bother him initially. When/if he realizes he is not really Ned's son it is a different story. 

We dont know how the system of legitimization works. Is a legitimized bastard ahead of a true born son if he is elder or not? Fans have disagreement here. But ultimately if the lords have chosen him to be king, there is no question of being a usurper. Its like calling Aegon the Unlikely a usurper because the kings council chose him ahead of people ahead of him in the succession.

Ultimately who is usurper comes from a frame of reference. For a targaryen loyalist Baratheon is a usurper. For someone on the Baratheon side, he is a conqueror not a usurper. So the question is whether the lords in the north would see Jon as a usurper. I dont think most of them would. While they do care about sucession a lot , they would feel they have completed their revenge by putting a legitimized Stark on the throne.

For them they need to have a leader who they can rally behind. With Jon being a famous swordsman and a seemingly perfect northener/man of honor(Hi littlefinger!), they would feel more comfortable rallying behind him, then a young child or a girl.

[Arya-Jon]

1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

 

 

1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

So you think he will be the king of Westeros.Then why would he marry Arya?

Catelyn's children have no claim on the Iron Throne. so there is not going to be inheritance conflict between his children and Catelyn's.

 

But what about after the war? if he decides to keep the kingship of the north when Bran is present then he is a usurper.

 

If Grrm wants Arya to be queen of westeros, there are multiple ways he can do it. I think Arya deserves to be queen simply because I think it will be she who will save the Starks/Jon and ensure the conquest of Westeros through tunnels and what not.

 As she has the major role in the conquest , she does have a right to be ruler, the same way Eddard Stark had a right (as much as Robert Baratheon . He used being a cousin of Targaryen as a means. But honestly he is king through conquest, not because of being a Targaryen descendant. There are multiple other Targaryen descendants like Viserys, Dany so claim does not flow from Targs)

Getting her to marry Jon is one option. Possible because of their direwolf connection. Jon wanting to put conflict on inheritance to rest. Samwell intervention. So many ways. If you think inheritance is not a valid reason, that is fine. There are other ways it can be done. Wrt inheritance it depends on how the author makes Jon think , which you or I have no control over. Going from king in the north to king of westeros is a unique situation that has never happened before. Having a sister/cousin who is so wild (in   a good way) is unique. Her wild ways will certainly scare of Edric Dayne. She is certainly not for the faint hearted. Having a brother whose reproductive status is unknown is also a unique situation.

(Jon 's is also unkown to be fair, but if he has had sex with dany and made her pregnant then not really.   )

So unique arrangements can happen to solve it.

Also Arya(or any other Stark) , Jon and Dany are a perfect balance of ice and fire.A song of ice and fire balance. Arya (pure ice), Dany (fire), Jon(ice and fire). So fits with the title.

Yeah after the war, I think he will be king of westeros. Hence he would be king of Andals,north etc etc . Bran as lord of winterfell.

 

[Arya-Jon]

Anyways will be off the forum for quite some time now. Back to work. Had fun with you all

[winter daughter]

1 hour ago, Arya-Jon said:

If he is seeing/ hearing that Robb wants him to lead and has legitimized him, he will take it very seriously. I dont think the thought of being a usurper will bother him initially.

Right now he thinks he is Ned's son and that his true born brothers are dead. so I'm sure he will accept it and takes it seriously. I asked about his decision after the big revelation.

 

1 hour ago, Arya-Jon said:

For them they need to have a leader who they can rally behind. With Jon being a famous swordsman and a seemingly perfect northener/man of honor(Hi littlefinger!), they would feel more comfortable rallying behind him, then a young child or a girl.

I agree .I think Jon(as KITN) and Dany will lead the army against the others.

But we are talking about post war events. right?

 

1 hour ago, Arya-Jon said:

If Grrm wants Arya to be queen of westeros, there are multiple ways he can do it.

Of course he can. but the ways you suggest are not convincing to me.

 

1 hour ago, Arya-Jon said:

Yeah after the war, I think he will be king of westeros. Hence he would be king of Andals,north etc etc . Bran as lord of winterfell.

It's quite possible. but as I said before, Stark children have no claim on the Iron Throne so there will be no inheritance conflict in the future.

 

[Arya-Jon]

10 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

 

It's quite possible. but as I said before, Stark children have no claim on the Iron Throne so there will be no inheritance conflict in the future.

 

Yeah, you are right that I am not being convincing with respect to the inheritance thing. So I will try again. If Sansa is dead (a big if). If Bran has reproduction issues( a big if) and if Arya and Jon are the only possible people who can continue the line of Winterfell, ie have some claim (with Arya having a bigger claim of course). 

So if Arya is unwilling to move away from Jon and does not want to marry any random lord who only wants her for her claim, than marrying her cousin Jon and continuing the line of Winterfell is an option. Unlike other suitors Jon does not care about her inheritance, but only about her (at least in Arya's eyes).Marriage is just an excuse. The main aim for Arya is to stay away from the throng of unworthy suitors.

Of course it is also possible in that case that Jon will allow Arya to stay unmarried and not care about providing a heir for Bran (who is the lord of winterfell but with the inability to produce a heir). But I feel it is unlikely. Eddard Stark's line would then die out and I dont think that will happen. So rather than inheritance conflict the correct word is inheritance issue.

I will be off forum so dont think I will reply soon.  

 

[a black swan]

3 hours ago, Tralalala said:

You should put crackpottery in the title,two lines,one in self-pity that he was the second son,and another trying to calm his child and you make it like a it's already done and about.

It's way more than that. 

How do you "calm" a girl like Arya by telling her she will marry the King and have lots of children? 

[a black swan]

48 minutes ago, Arya-Jon said:

Yeah, you are right that I am not being convincing with respect to the inheritance thing. So I will try again. If Sansa is dead (a big if). If Bran has reproduction issues( a big if) and if Arya and Jon are the only possible people who can continue the line of Winterfell, ie have some claim (with Arya having a bigger claim of course). 

 

Wouldn't Robb's Will play a factor as well?