Arya will become Queen

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

That could be true!

There are lots of possibilities that we all like for all sorts of different characters, but that does not mean they will happen. Actually, George has said that he plans of killing some main pov's by story end (no, I am not saying Arya). And aren't we all here because we are all trying to figure out what is most likely?

So, you don't follow the idea that she is somehow inspired by naming her wold Nymeria and what that means? I know others here don't follow that idea as they said. I guess I am not sure if you do or not?

I do follow that idea.  Given that Nymeria was a great leader and queen, I am definitely of the idea that Arya could become one as well.  I assume that is what you meant.  I have always felt that she has leadership potential and have said so repeatedly.  I also am of the belief that the idea that she will become an assassin, or even that her primary purpose in the story is to kill people is an inaccurate one.  

Yes, we all have our desires.  If we're lucky, some may even come true.  My problem isn't so much in making suggestions based on their own wishes, it's flatly rejecting ideas that don't align with those wishes.

[The Fattest Leech]

14 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I do follow that idea.  Given that Nymeria was a great leader

She was amazing.

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and queen,

Well, she was never an actual queen and she rejected that idea. That is why she went by princess instead.

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I am definitely of the idea that Arya could become one as well.  I assume that is what you meant.  I have always felt that she has leadership potential and have said so repeatedly.  I also am of the belief that the idea that she will become an assassin, or even that her primary purpose in the story is to kill people is an inaccurate one.  

I agree. The pack survives.

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Yes, we all have our desires.  If we're lucky, some may even come true.  My problem isn't so much in making suggestions based on their own wishes, it's flatly rejecting ideas that don't align with those wishes.

That is why I used qualifiers such as "I think," and not something like, "I know." And also giving some alternatives for some others that don't think Arya will amount to much. You know, keeping an open mind and all.

[Nevets]

25 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Well, she was never an actual queen and she rejected that idea. That is why she went by princess instead.

At this point in the story, everybody seems to refer to her as a queen, which is why I did.  "A rose by any other name...".

26 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

That is why I used qualifiers such as "I think," and not something like, "I know." And also giving some alternatives for some others that don't think Arya will amount to much. You know, keeping an open mind and all.

I just about always use "I think", and try to keep an open mind.  The only times I exhibit certainty is when I think an idea is ridiculous and unsupported on its face.  I'm reasonably sure nothing  you've said makes it to that level.

As for not amounting to much, one thing I am convinced of is that she will not go quietly and simply fade away.  The kid's got way too fiery a personality for that to happen!

[Philokles]

I don't think that there is any guarantee whatsoever that Arya will become a Queen. There is character build up and possible foreshadowing that indicates it is a good possibility, however. What is evident is that she will play an important role. I think that these sorts of threads are largely in reaction to the all to prevalent misinterpretation that Arya is some barely human creature incapable of living in society or truly 'no one' - which simply isn't supported by the text. Also the uncertain nature of her future arc lends itself to speculation. Unlike say Jon or Dany, there are no obvious next steps for her character that fits with what we know of her and the role of other protagonists. That makes me suspect that she will come fully into her own at the very end of the series or in the epilogue.

[a black swan]

6 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Actually...

One reason I don't enjoy Arya's chapters (besides finding her character rather dull) is that I'm neither interested in watching her wander around war torn Westeros endlessly nor tin her raining with the most depressive death assassin cult in fantasy history. I'd actually be fairly happy if she did something  that isn't connected to the Faceless Men, chasing cats or creepy revenge fantasies. But right now that's all there is. What am I supposed to enjoy here?

And still I don't see her becoming Jon's Queen. Truth be told I don't even have a theory where either of the Stark Girls will end up. I know I want them to meet up again, so anything that would bring Arya back to Westeros would already be positive.

I just don't agree with the idea that every little detail or offhand remark is foreshadowing (or ridiculous stretches of credibility that Arya is based on Arwen...seriously whut?)

However, right now she's a child and since GRRM scrapped the timeskip she's gonna be a child by the end of the series. So unless we get a "distant finale" she won't be queen of anything or anybody's wife by the last page.

 

Well you're in luck then? She is coming home. The discussion on this forum had to change with most (not all) thinking she would lose her identity and become a FM. So where is her story heading now? Most would admit.... her future feels like a mystery. 

I'm not sure if you're aware, but there have been other Queens younger than Arya will be by the end of asoiaf. George has already said scraping the 5-year gap won't change what these characters need to do. The 5 year gap most affected Arya and Dany the most... I wonder what they could be doing that really needed an older version of themselves? 

 

 

[Makk]

I sincerely hope she doesn't end up with Jon as a romantic partner. I don't think she will, and I don't think that outline really means much. I was completely unaware they were supposed to have any sort of romantic attachment at all until I saw a few people here mentioning it. What is wrong with having a very strong sibling bond that doesn't involve incest?

It's very difficult to predict the end result of her story arc, I've really got nothing in regards to that and have never read anything that I really agree with. In the short term however, based on her character personality, I think it is likely that she will return to Westeros to avenge Jon (assuming he is dead for a little while). She will hear the news in Bravos and the bond between the two is strong enough that she will be unprepared to do nothing about it. She now has the training and confidence to act on that and her adherence to the faceless men is not strong enough to stop her.

[Gertrude]

12 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

What is evident is that she will play an important role. I think that these sorts of threads are largely in reaction to the all to prevalent misinterpretation that Arya is some barely human creature incapable of living in society or truly 'no one' - which simply isn't supported by the text

I think this is an interesting thing to think about. I agree that there is no textual evidence to think Arya is truly no one, but I do think there is evidence that she is incapable of living in society. The one thing about Arya that always sticks out to me and makes my heart break is an interaction she has with a woman who is buying her horse in the Saltpans. Arya thinks to herself that there are too many people around to kill the woman. This is a viable alternative to her when dealing with people and things aren't going her way. There are so many other examples of people Arya killed that can be justified in some way - vengeance, survival, honor, etc. - but this one is entirely problematic and disturbing.

I absolutely believe that Arya can overcome this, but not by herself. I don't really care where Arya ends up except that I hope where ever it is, she has found someone who can ground her and pull her back into a functional role in society. Maybe it's family, maybe it's Gendry in the Riverlands, but she needs someone who loves and supports her enough to help her reclaim her identity fully. Like I said, I don't think her being an anti-social killer is her final form, but it's going to leave a mark and honestly, I think she's going to have some pretty heavy dysfunction to deal with for a long, long time. I'm not ruling out the Queen path entirely, but it seems unlikely to me given her circumstances.

[a black swan]

2 hours ago, Gertrude said:

You're technically correct, but that's not how most people think about her. I still think Nymeria can be highly symbolic and reflective of Arya without Arya becoming a queen.

I also think it's a bit rude to dismiss other people opinions because you think you know their motives. I've never doubted Arya would return to Westeros so it's not an inconvenience I have to shoehorn into my thinking. I love Arya, but I don't know what role she is going to play, I just don't feel that Queen sits right with me for her.

Her direwolf is doing what the historic ruler in Nymeria did. She is leading and uniting and ruling over her super pack. These characteristics are intrinsically linked to Arya - as much as some people  (not you) want to diminish that and play down its significance. 

It doesn't matter what people "think". The importance of what actually is true is more relevant if we want to garner more meaning. And like you said before, there is a collective narrative that should matter more. Looking at things in isolation and picking them apart is beyond reductive (I'm not saying you're doing that). 

You look at her direwolf acting like a Queen in her leadership role + all the other textual links @TyrionTLannisterpointed out - this future being a possibility is at the very least a possibility. 

Previously, you said something about her skills being more suited for being a Hand to a King or something. Sure that's an option. But I explained how learning to surpress her identity (something she was able to do before leaving KL in book 1) this helps her become something she would otherwise never wish to be. 

She has been telegraphing from the beginning that she will never be a Lady. But then there is always Duty. Her bittersweet ending may be to live a version of Arya Stark the world always wanted - a Lady not a warrior - the kind of irony we can expect from George. In her heart she will always be Arya Stark no matter how sad, broken or weak she is on the outside. Could Arya accept being Queen or a Lady? There are certain things Arya needs to overcome, personal growths and realizations she has yet to experience.  I think Winds will be very transformative and we'll be in a better place to judge where her future is going.  

[Sea Dragon]

On 2/26/2017 at 1:04 PM, Gertrude said:

I think it's very hard to tell at this point in the story since it isn't finished. Essentially, for me to call something foreshadowing right now, it has to be something that might not catch your attention at first, but once an idea takes hold you can go back and see all the hints pointing towards it and it's hard to see how it could be something else. R+L=J is one of those for me. Aegon being an imposter is another. It's not about predicting the details of the story, but rather how it all fits together as a narrative and the shape of it. Sansa is being groomed for a role, but I don't know exactly what it will be. Her arc speaks of being a powerful and successful lady, but her exact position I couldn't say. Arya as queen doesn't make as much sense as these other things, so I find it hard to call it foreshadowing at this point.

I agree with a later poster that Arya's training fits more with her being a valuable operative for some Lord or Lady, but not the Lady herself. Her training is not aimed towards leading.

I guess my problem with taking specific lines and singling them out is that some of it may just be an artistic choice. An example used earlier was Ned saying 'father of queens'. Well, ok, he said queens, but that is more elegant and artistic than just saying 'the father of a queen'. I'm sure some of what people are seeing is foreshadowing (not just this theory, many others too), but I'm also equally sure that some of it is not. I'm more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to something being foreshadowing if it fits the overall narrative as I understand it. I just don't understand how Arya's arc culminates in her becoming a queen, and specifically Jon's queen.

We shall see indeed. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

I agree the story is not finished yet, but it still seems too dark for her for her to come back from all of the way and still be normal. Lots of trauma that happens to children will affect them the rest of their lives.

I like the way you described foreshadowing. That seems right.

On 2/26/2017 at 3:03 PM, sweetsunray said:

I can see Arya as a queen, but only in one particular situation: an exodus queen, leading thousands of sails with survivors westward to find a new continent.

As for some book quotes cited:

"Already in love": while this can be a foreshadowing quote, it is more a foreshadowing of Arya as character in relation to love, rather than Arya already in love with Jon. At the time Arya falls in love with her wolf puppy at first sight. This could imply that when Arya falls in love with a boy/young man, it will be love at first sight. The only boy I can see that apply to is Gendry. Because if Arya is a love-at-first-sight kinda girl, and you recognize she is attracted to Gendry (in a manner appropriate for her age), then he can't be a foil for Jon at all.

Giving Needle: Jon is NOT giving his own sword to Arya. He's giving Arya her own sword. So, if you want to see that in any sexual context, it means that Jon empowers Arya to a) have her own symbolic balls b ) enables her to make up her own mind, choose whomever she wants for herself. When a man gives his "own sword" to a girl/woman, he's symbolically pledging faithfulness to that girl. And if Jon giving Needle to Arya was to be taken that way, then he wouldn't have slept with Ygritte, nor daydream of children with Val.

Wow. That Arya and Needle explanation make sense. I have never seen it described like that.

On 2/26/2017 at 6:29 PM, Lord Wraith said:

Considering the amount of supposed foreshadowing of Arya being dead and a Queen I subscribe to the theory that Arya will die and live a second life in Nymeria. A second life worthy of a Queen. She will finally have her pack and can still unleash revenge as Big Nyms.

This is interesting, but I don't know if Arya can do that. Don't wargs only live for a little while, a few days or something, when they go into their animals at final death?

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

At this point in the story, everybody seems to refer to her as a queen, which is why I did.  "A rose by any other name...".

I just about always use "I think", and try to keep an open mind.  The only times I exhibit certainty is when I think an idea is ridiculous and unsupported on its face.  I'm reasonably sure nothing  you've said makes it to that level.

 

Wow. That was a very rude post.

31 minutes ago, Makk said:

I sincerely hope she doesn't end up with Jon as a romantic partner. I don't think she will, and I don't think that outline really means much. I was completely unaware they were supposed to have any sort of romantic attachment at all until I saw a few people here mentioning it. What is wrong with having a very strong sibling bond that doesn't involve incest?

It's very difficult to predict the end result of her story arc, I've really got nothing in regards to that and have never read anything that I really agree with. In the short term however, based on her character personality, I think it is likely that she will return to Westeros to avenge Jon (assuming he is dead for a little while). She will hear the news in Bravos and the bond between the two is strong enough that she will be unprepared to do nothing about it. She now has the training and confidence to act on that and her adherence to the faceless men is not strong enough to stop her.

I never read this romantic relationship in their stories either. I am not sure how people are getting that? Maybe the outline? They are really just close brother and sister. Anything more is creepy. And that would be incest and that is against their religion.

Wow. So much to read on the forum today.

[Sea Dragon]

6 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

Her direwolf is doing what the historic ruler in Nymeria did. She is leading and uniting and ruling over her super pack. These characteristics are intrinsically linked to Arya - as much as some people  (not you) want to diminish that and play down its significance. 

It doesn't matter what people "think". The importance of what actually is true is more relevant if we want to garner more meaning. And like you said before, there is a collective narrative that should matter more. Looking at things in isolation and picking them apart is beyond reductive (I'm not saying you're doing that). 

Hi there. I just want to say this is pretty good except you also picked things apart and looked at them in isolation earlier in this thread. It seems you are an Arya fan, which is really cool, but I keep seeing people getting rude with each other here and I don't know why.

6 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

 

You look at her direwolf acting like a Queen in her leadership role + all the other textual links @TyrionTLannisterpointed out - this future being a possibility is at the very least a possibility. 

Previously, you said something about her skills being more suited for being a Hand to a King or something. Sure that's an option. But I explained how learning to surpress her identity (something she was able to do before leaving KL in book 1) this helps her become something she would otherwise never wish to be. 

She has been telegraphing from the beginning that she will never be a Lady. But then there is always Duty. Her bittersweet ending may be to live a version of Arya Stark the world always wanted - a Lady not a warrior - the kind of irony we can expect from George. In her heart she will always be Arya Stark no matter how sad, broken or weak she is on the outside. Could Arya accept being Queen or a Lady? There are certain things Arya needs to overcome, personal growths and realizations she has yet to experience.  I think Winds will be very transformative and we'll be in a better place to judge where her future is going.  

Yeah. The main post in this thread has a lot of good information. I was just shown the song of ice and fire search site last week. That is pretty cool and I can see where it comes in handy.

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Well, Westeros will probably be majorly changed after the Long Night and things like bastardy might not even be an issue anymore. The need for people will depending on how big of a die-off we get.

Also, Gendry 'Waters' was raised to a knight. He is now Ser Gendry of the Hollow Hill. A magical place for Arya.

And Gendry may end up being called the "king of the woods" for all we know. Gendry can be a king of something in a play with words, as a nickname. The boy just nearly finished making his own sword. He killed his first man with a spear. He'll be darn good with a hammer anyway. And GRRM didn't have Brienne go all "I must speak with Gendry and tell him!" for nothing. He's surrounding himself with nothing but reminders of her. And Arya digs him. She'll still dig him when she turns up in the Riverlands after flowering on her way back to Westeros, no doubt. Though she'll probably throw a few punches at him first and a few more crab apples.

[chrisdaw]

Jon will be KITN, Arya will be princess of the north. Tyrion and Sansa will be king and queen on the IT, Sansa will have Tyrion name Robert Arryn his heir. Jon will come south and defeat Tyrion. Tyrion will die. To cement his victory and unite the kingdom KITN Jon will marry Arya to the IT then bend the knee. Queen regent Sansa will likewise marry Robert Arryn to Arya. And that will be the end situation of the series, Robert Arryn and Arya as king and queen of a once again united Westeros. Robert Arryn caught between the queen he loves and the queen he married, trying to rule and keep both happy.

[kissdbyfire]

On 26/02/2017 at 10:03 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

They are siblings. DNA doesn't matter, they are siblings.

This x 1,000,000,000.

They grew up believing they are siblings. And that won't change magically at some point just b/c they'll learn they're first cousins.

[Philokles]

10 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I think this is an interesting thing to think about. I agree that there is no textual evidence to think Arya is truly no one, but I do think there is evidence that she is incapable of living in society. The one thing about Arya that always sticks out to me and makes my heart break is an interaction she has with a woman who is buying her horse in the Saltpans. Arya thinks to herself that there are too many people around to kill the woman. This is a viable alternative to her when dealing with people and things aren't going her way. There are so many other examples of people Arya killed that can be justified in some way - vengeance, survival, honor, etc. - but this one is entirely problematic and disturbing.

I absolutely believe that Arya can overcome this, but not by herself. I don't really care where Arya ends up except that I hope where ever it is, she has found someone who can ground her and pull her back into a functional role in society. Maybe it's family, maybe it's Gendry in the Riverlands, but she needs someone who loves and supports her enough to help her reclaim her identity fully. Like I said, I don't think her being an anti-social killer is her final form, but it's going to leave a mark and honestly, I think she's going to have some pretty heavy dysfunction to deal with for a long, long time. I'm not ruling out the Queen path entirely, but it seems unlikely to me given her circumstances.

When the woman was cheating her and threatening her with execution? Yes, killing her would be a bit of an overreaction but she was in a highly stressful situation - needing more money to escape especially now she had no horse, and she is not one to take being defrauded lightly. Besides she was only weighing up her options.

After that she went to Braavos and integrated into society, learnt a new language, made a host of new friends with no problem as Cat. I don't see any reason why Arya should be more traumatised long-term than Jon, Dany, Sansa and so on are, or evidence that she is. She has seen things that no 11 year old should and done things that no 11 year old should have to, but is holding up rather well in the circumstances - not using violence against innocents, still having a strong sense of justice and making friends with ease.

[a black swan]

10 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I think this is an interesting thing to think about. I agree that there is no textual evidence to think Arya is truly no one, but I do think there is evidence that she is incapable of living in society. The one thing about Arya that always sticks out to me and makes my heart break is an interaction she has with a woman who is buying her horse in the Saltpans. Arya thinks to herself that there are too many people around to kill the woman. This is a viable alternative to her when dealing with people and things aren't going her way. There are so many other examples of people Arya killed that can be justified in some way - vengeance, survival, honor, etc. - but this one is entirely problematic and disturbing.

I absolutely believe that Arya can overcome this, but not by herself. I don't really care where Arya ends up except that I hope where ever it is, she has found someone who can ground her and pull her back into a functional role in society. Maybe it's family, maybe it's Gendry in the Riverlands, but she needs someone who loves and supports her enough to help her reclaim her identity fully. Like I said, I don't think her being an anti-social killer is her final form, but it's going to leave a mark and honestly, I think she's going to have some pretty heavy dysfunction to deal with for a long, long time. I'm not ruling out the Queen path entirely, but it seems unlikely to me given her circumstances.

But she's already "functioning" in society as Cat of the Canals. She lives with a normal family, with "sisters" she seems to care about and she has a job that she really enjoys because it lets her be among the people so readily. When one of Brusco's daughters takes to bed in too much pain from her moonblood, Arya takes over her work load and gets to go to the richer parts of Braavos, but Arya always preferred Ragman's Harbor. 

Only Braavosi were permitted use of the Purple Harbor, from the Drowned Town and the Sealord's Palace; ships from her sister cities and the rest of the wide world had to use the Ragman's Harbor, a poorer, rougher, dirtier port than the Purple. It was noisier as well, as sailors and traders from half a hundred lands crowded its wharves and alleys, mingling with those who served and preyed on them. Cat liked it best of any place in Braavos. She liked the noise and the strange smells, and seeing what ships had come in on the evening tide and what ships had departed. She liked the sailors too; the boisterous Tyroshi with their booming voices and dyed whiskers; the fair-haired Lyseni, always trying to niggle down her prices; the squat, hairy sailors from the Port of Ibben, growling curses in low, raspy voices. Her favorites were the Summer Islanders, with their skins as smooth and dark as teak. They wore feathered cloaks of red and green and yellow, and the tall masts and white sails of their swan ships were magnificent. - Cat of the Canals

This is a constant theme with Arya, being able to assimilate and appreciate different people's lives. She speaks multiple languages and is living on a huge port city exposed to the people from all over the world. 

Arya liked being Cat the most of all her identities, it's the most "normal" life she's had since escaping KL. That says a lot more than just one isolated thought that was never even acted upon while she was on the run and fearing for her life. 

 

 

[Gertrude]

Arya's first though about killing a woman because she was being inconvenienced is not just an over-reaction, it's disturbing. And yes, Arya is fully capable of fitting in with society - that's what a large part of her training is, blending in. In the Mercy chapter, does Arya actually seem like she is making friends and forming bonds, or does she just go through the motions? In the news when there's a killing, how often do you hear people saying they never suspected, he was such a nice guy. Someone who can kill with such ease and with such little regard or reason is not safe to have loose in society at large.

Her thought to kill that woman was not idle coming from her, it wasn't just a stray thought. This is what she has learned under the harsh tutelage of the Hound and from Jaqen being her personal angel of death. I don't believe this is who Arya is forever, but I do believe she is teetering on the edge of a very dark place and will need help to overcome it. And yes, Sansa, Dany and Jon have all had their own host of issues they will need to overcome, but I think Arya has the longest road to walk by a country mile. None of the others have lost their compass as much as Arya. I'd argue that Bran is closest in this regard (slipping in to Hodor) and it's no surprise that these are the youngest characters who have been flailing about on their own for far too long.

This is not coming from a place of dislike for Arya, I love her very much and my heart breaks for her. Out of all the characters, I think she is the leading candidate for not getting a 'happy' ending. I hope she, much like the Hound, can just find some peace and I will count that as a win.

[Orphalesion]

12 hours ago, DutchArya said:

 

I'm not sure if you're aware, but there have been other Queens younger than Arya will be by the end of asoiaf. George has already said scraping the 5-year gap won't change what these characters need to do. The 5 year gap most affected Arya and Dany the most... I wonder what they could be doing that really needed an older version of themselves? 

 

 

I have not looked into all the history of Westeros in detail I admit, but there were child queen regnants? In any case an underage ruler would be placed under a regent, who would be the actual ruler.

An older Arya, IF she were to become queen and IF that title would be queen regnant and not queen consort, would be capable of ruling in her own right, as well as marry and, in that way, secure her succession.

11 hours ago, DutchArya said:

Her direwolf is doing what the historic ruler in Nymeria did. She is leading and uniting and ruling over her super pack. These characteristics are intrinsically linked to Arya - as much as some people  (not you) want to diminish that and play down its significance. 

You look at her direwolf acting like a Queen in her leadership role + all the other textual links @TyrionTLannisterpointed out - this future being a possibility is at the very least a possibility. 

 

She has been telegraphing from the beginning that she will never be a Lady. But then there is always Duty. Her bittersweet ending may be to live a version of Arya Stark the world always wanted - a Lady not a warrior - the kind of irony we can expect from George. In her heart she will always be Arya Stark no matter how sad, broken or weak she is on the outside. Could Arya accept being Queen or a Lady? There are certain things Arya needs to overcome, personal growths and realizations she has yet to experience.  I think Winds will be very transformative and we'll be in a better place to judge where her future is going.  

Her direwolf is murdering and roving through the Riverlands, killing and eating people, including innocents. If that points towards Arya's future or the kind of queen she might be then Seven Gods save us from the Queen.

Though I like your idea of Arya perhaps being forced to accept some of her society's norms when it comes to gender roles, but without giving herself up in the process. Not because I have anything against tomboys (I positively LOVE Brienne) but because it would indeed be a very interesting process to watch and would indeed be a sign of maturity on her part as she accepts that, in the end she will have to work within the society she lives in and the expectations that society places on her. She could grow up into something like a more benevolent version of  Magaret of Anjou.

It would also be a nice mirror image to Sansa, who has to learn to "fight". I always had the impression that Lyanna was a person who balanced her more martial interests and her role as lady very well and think that both Arya and Sansa have the capability to grow into someone like that who has the skills and sensibility to deal with the world but who never gives up who they are inside.

This might also be paralleled if we take into account that, right now both of them live under assumed identities.

Still seeing development like that coming after all that boring stuff with the face change assassins is very optimistic...

[a black swan]

26 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Arya's first though about killing a woman because she was being inconvenienced is not just an over-reaction, it's disturbing. And yes, Arya is fully capable of fitting in with society - that's what a large part of her training is, blending in. In the Mercy chapter, does Arya actually seem like she is making friends and forming bonds, or does she just go through the motions? In the news when there's a killing, how often do you hear people saying they never suspected, he was such a nice guy. Someone who can kill with such ease and with such little regard or reason is not safe to have loose in society at large.

Her thought to kill that woman was not idle coming from her, it wasn't just a stray thought. This is what she has learned under the harsh tutelage of the Hound and from Jaqen being her personal angel of death. I don't believe this is who Arya is forever, but I do believe she is teetering on the edge of a very dark place and will need help to overcome it. And yes, Sansa, Dany and Jon have all had their own host of issues they will need to overcome, but I think Arya has the longest road to walk by a country mile. None of the others have lost their compass as much as Arya. I'd argue that Bran is closest in this regard (slipping in to Hodor) and it's no surprise that these are the youngest characters who have been flailing about on their own for far too long.

This is not coming from a place of dislike for Arya, I love her very much and my heart breaks for her. Out of all the characters, I think she is the leading candidate for not getting a 'happy' ending. I hope she, much like the Hound, can just find some peace and I will count that as a win.

She clearly says she will miss her life as Mercy and the friends she made. The same is highlighted when she is Cat of the Canals. She saved Sam from those Braavosi, do you recall? Where is her moral judgement there? Does it not count when it isn't murderous and ugly? There is this one thought you hold so heavy on a scale that is completely out balanced by so many other moments and experiences that you don't seem to give much weight to. Isn't Sansa assisting or at the least completely indifferent to the poisoning of an innocent child? You are really going to compare Arya's throw-away thought that was never acted upon against all the morally questionable things other characters have also done? Doesn't seem fair at all. A lot of these characters are growing a lot more grey as the story progresses, Arya included. But to act like she is some exception or a unique case when you clearly see she is on a journey, still growing with her story and it's far from done. 

 

[Philokles]

13 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Arya's first though about killing a woman because she was being inconvenienced is not just an over-reaction, it's disturbing. And yes, Arya is fully capable of fitting in with society - that's what a large part of her training is, blending in. In the Mercy chapter, does Arya actually seem like she is making friends and forming bonds, or does she just go through the motions? In the news when there's a killing, how often do you hear people saying they never suspected, he was such a nice guy. Someone who can kill with such ease and with such little regard or reason is not safe to have loose in society at large.

That might be a tenable argument if she weren't a POV, but she is and we can see inside her head to discover that she is being genuine.

She missed the friends she'd had when she was Cat of the Canals; Old Brusco with his bad back, his daughters Talea and Brea, the mummers from the Ship, Merry and her whores at the Happy Port, all the other rogues and wharfside scum. She missed Cat herself the most of all, even more than she missed her eyes. She had liked being Cat, more than she had ever liked being Salty or Squab or Weasel or Arry.

(ADWD, The Blind Girl)

 

13 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Her thought to kill that woman was not idle coming from her, it wasn't just a stray thought. This is what she has learned under the harsh tutelage of the Hound and from Jaqen being her personal angel of death. I don't believe this is who Arya is forever, but I do believe she is teetering on the edge of a very dark place and will need help to overcome it. And yes, Sansa, Dany and Jon have all had their own host of issues they will need to overcome, but I think Arya has the longest road to walk by a country mile. None of the others have lost their compass as much as Arya. I'd argue that Bran is closest in this regard (slipping in to Hodor) and it's no surprise that these are the youngest characters who have been flailing about on their own for far too long.

You make it sound like this was some random woman who Arya thought about killing for no reason. Her desperate attempt to head north was at an end because of this woman's cheating. Added to the stress of being on the run for so long, knowing that her family had been butchered and her typical intolerance for those who abuse their positions of power, it is hardly surprising or indicative of bad character.

In no way has Arya lost her compass. She dislikes that the FM have no sense of justice in their work - asking the Kindly Man why the original members killed the slaves not the slavers and refusing to kill the insurance salesman until she was assured that there was a moral justification for it.

[Gertrude]

59 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

There is this one thought you hold so heavy on a scale that is completely out balanced by so many other moments and experiences that you don't seem to give much weight to. Isn't Sansa assisting or at the least completely indifferent to the poisoning of an innocent child? You are really going to compare Arya's throw-away thought that was never acted upon against all the morally questionable things other characters have also done? Doesn't seem fair at all. A lot of these characters are growing a lot more grey as the story progresses, Arya included. But to act like she is some exception or a unique case when you clearly see she is on a journey, still growing with her story and it's far from done. 

 

We're not going to see eye to eye on this, obviously. But I do want to address a few things. I see Arya as grey, just more grey than you seem to think she is. I clearly said she is teetering and can go either way. Yes, she still has some sort of compass, but it's pretty broken in some important aspects. I concede that I was too quick to call Arya detatched, but I don't concede the argument. Killers can have friends just like misogynists can have sisters, daughters and mothers they love dearly.

I don't believe Sansa is assisting or indifferent to Sweet Robin's situation, so it's not comparable to me. I also don't believe Arya's line was a throw away and just because she didn't act on it doesn't make it any less disturbing. I'm not weighing it more than her other acts, but I am weighing it. From my perspective, you're not giving it enough weight.

Like I said though, neither of us will persuade the other, but I wanted to clarify a few things. I'm out.