Jump to content

Was Ned's fighting style dishonorable?


The Twinslayer

Recommended Posts

The "too long, didn't read" version is this.  Ned's preferred method of fighting was to sit on his horse and ride down men who were on foot.  Barristan tells us this is unchivalrous.  Does that make Ned a dishonorable combatant?  Or does it just mean he was clever?

The quote from Barristan is in ASOS, when Strong Belwas (on foot) faces the Meereenese champion (who is mounted).  When Meereen's champion rides out, Barristan (in his Arstan disguise) says:  "A chivalrous man would dismount."  Dany also notices this:  "Oznak zo Pahl charged a third time, and now Dany could see plainly that he was riding past Belwas, the way a Westerosi knight might ride at an opponent in a tilt, rather than at him, like a Dothraki riding down a foe."

Ned seems to prefer the Dothraki method.  He describes it when he fights Jaime's men in the streets of King's Landing.  "His party was mounted, the Lannisters on foot save for Jaime himself."  And when the fighting starts, "A steel-shod hoof caught a Lannister guardsman in the face with a sickening crunch."  

That could be put down to the fact that Ned and his men were outnumbered.  Except that Ned also fights this way when the numbers are on his side.  Consider the encounter at the tower of joy.  There is a vivid description of his party:  "In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life.  Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion."  That is how Ned's party approaches the three KG at the toj.  And, "They were seven, facing three.  In the dream as it had been in life."  

It is clear the 3 KGs were not mounted.  "Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips.  The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder.  Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone.  Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower..."

And of course, there is no indication that Ned's seven dismounted before "Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand.  They were seven against three."  

And there is a third example.  During the Sack of King's Landing, Ned went to the throne room to find Aerys and to kill him.  He knows he is probably going to have to cut down Jaime Lannister (and maybe thinks there will be some other KGs there, too).  He expects Jaime and any others there to fight to the death.  So Ned takes a large force.  "My men were filling the room behind me."  And does he dismount?  No.  "I was still mounted.  I rode the length of the hall in silence."  So it is safe to conclude that he expected to find Jaime (and maybe more KGs) guarding Aerys in the throne room.  He planned to kill, or at least arrest, Aerys, which meant he would have to kill Jaime and any other KGs.  He would have expected any guards to be on foot, in front of the Iron Throne.  So he followed his usual fighting method and went in to ride them down.  

So the question is whether Ned's style was dishonorable?  Or just clever?     

  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

The "too long, didn't read" version is this.  Ned's preferred method of fighting was to sit on his horse and ride down men who were on foot.  Barristan tells us this is unchivalrous.  Does that make Ned a dishonorable combatant?  Or does it just mean he was clever?

The quote from Barristan is in ASOS, when Strong Belwas (on foot) faces the Meereenese champion (who is mounted).  When Meereen's champion rides out, Barristan (in his Arstan disguise) says:  "A chivalrous man would dismount."  Dany also notices this:  "Oznak zo Pahl charged a third time, and now Dany could see plainly that he was riding past Belwas, the way a Westerosi knight might ride at an opponent in a tilt, rather than at him, like a Dothraki riding down a foe."

Ned seems to prefer the Dothraki method.  He describes it when he fights Jaime's men in the streets of King's Landing.  "His party was mounted, the Lannisters on foot save for Jaime himself."  And when the fighting starts, "A steel-shod hoof caught a Lannister guardsman in the face with a sickening crunch."  

That could be put down to the fact that Ned and his men were outnumbered.  Except that Ned also fights this way when the numbers are on his side.  Consider the encounter at the tower of joy.  There is a vivid description of his party:  "In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life.  Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion."  That is how Ned's party approaches the three KG at the toj.  And, "They were seven, facing three.  In the dream as it had been in life."  

It is clear the 3 KGs were not mounted.  "Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips.  The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder.  Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone.  Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower..."

And of course, there is no indication that Ned's seven dismounted before "Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand.  They were seven against three."  

And there is a third example.  During the Sack of King's Landing, Ned went to the throne room to find Aerys and to kill him.  He knows he is probably going to have to cut down Jaime Lannister (and maybe thinks there will be some other KGs there, too).  He expects Jaime and any others there to fight to the death.  So Ned takes a large force.  "My men were filling the room behind me."  And does he dismount?  No.  "I was still mounted.  I rode the length of the hall in silence."  So it is safe to conclude that he expected to find Jaime (and maybe more KGs) guarding Aerys in the throne room.  He planned to kill, or at least arrest, Aerys, which meant he would have to kill Jaime and any other KGs.  He would have expected any guards to be on foot, in front of the Iron Throne.  So he followed his usual fighting method and went in to ride them down.  

So the question is whether Ned's style was dishonorable?  Or just clever?     

  

 

Belwas vs Oznak is a duel for honor's sake more or less planned, and there chivalry is important. But Ned's situation is different. That was unexpected and dishonorable attack, his men are outnumbered and slaughtered. So he's doing what he should... using every adavantage he has to save himself and his men.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Belewas vs Oznak is a duel for honor's sake more or less planned, and there chivalry is important. But Ned's situation is different. That was unexpected and dishonorable attack, his men are outnumbered and slaughtered. So he's doing what he should... using every adavantage he has to save himself and his men.

 

2 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

No. It is only in single combat that using equipment that your opponent does could be seen as dishonourable.

Does it matter that Ned lets the world believe that he slew Ser Arthur Dayne in single combat?  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

 

Does it matter that Ned lets the world believe that he slew Ser Arthur Dayne in single combat?  

It does, but consider why he does it; it isn't for glory, but to maintain the constructed story behind Lyanna's abduction, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

 

Does it matter that Ned lets the world believe that he slew Ser Arthur Dayne in single combat?  

Did he? As far as I knew all he ever said on the matter was "He would have killed me but for Howland Reed" which to me definitely doesn't scream "Single Combat!". Frankly, if you heard that Reed had saved Ned's life when he was fighting Dayne then you'd be pretty stupid to think that it was single combat. The very fact that Reed got involved proves that this was a skirmish, not a one on one dual.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

So the question is whether Ned's style was dishonorable?  Or just clever?     

After the war he wanted to stay home.

Taking into consideration the fantasy novel he was written into he was a fair and careful lord. His meddling wife encouraged him to go south. Eddard wanted to stay home in the north. The north which is larger than the other six kingdoms.

As to his fighting style, I could not say, since it was not described in the novels.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One is a single combat between champions, the other is not. 

Ned's not entering into a fair fight with the Kingsguard either he's there to get his sister and is perfectly willing to kill them if they resist.

I'm sure Barristan had no problem sitting in full plate trampling over plebs with his warhorse in the middle of a battle. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A duel is much more ritualized and codified than a casual fight to the death. Notice that even Ser Barry, as fixated about honor as he was, had no qualms about gutting an unarmored Khrazz. Or, as Prince Corwin of Amber would put it, it wasn't exactly Summer Olympics.

And when Jaime ordered Ned's men murdered on the street just to make a point, to pose a question whether Ned did act dishonorably is... I think I'll go with "creative".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sacking Kings Landing wasn't dishonorable, they were in the middle of war. Being surrounded by Lannister guards wasn't either, they were ambushed. And while it doesn't say they dismounted at the ToJ, it doesn't say they didn't either. The only thing dishonorable about it was 7 v 3, and they were fighting the best swordsmen in Westeros and only came out 2 ahead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

And there is a third example.  During the Sack of King's Landing, Ned went to the throne room to find Aerys and to kill him.  He knows he is probably going to have to cut down Jaime Lannister (and maybe thinks there will be some other KGs there, too).  He expects Jaime and any others there to fight to the death.  So Ned takes a large force.  "My men were filling the room behind me."  And does he dismount?  No.  "I was still mounted.  I rode the length of the hall in silence."  So it is safe to conclude that he expected to find Jaime (and maybe more KGs) guarding Aerys in the throne room.  He planned to kill, or at least arrest, Aerys, which meant he would have to kill Jaime and any other KGs.  He would have expected any guards to be on foot, in front of the Iron Throne.  So he followed his usual fighting method and went in to ride them down.

Ned arrived after the Sack, and the Lannister banners were flying from the ramparts, so Ned would have known that Aerys was at the very least in custody, if not actually dead.

Quote

"Not our men," Ned said patiently. "Lannister men. The lion of Lannister flew over the ramparts, not the crowned stag. And they had taken the city by treachery."

GOT, Eddard II

Not the crowned stag, and not the three-headed dragon, either. Ned did not ride into the throne room intending to cut through the KG to kill the Mad King. He rode in with his men behind him because he was claiming the city on Robert's behalf, and he did not trust the Lannisters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

The "too long, didn't read" version is this.  Ned's preferred method of fighting was to sit on his horse and ride down men who were on foot.  Barristan tells us this is unchivalrous.  Does that make Ned a dishonorable combatant?  Or does it just mean he was clever?

The quote from Barristan is in ASOS, when Strong Belwas (on foot) faces the Meereenese champion (who is mounted).  When Meereen's champion rides out, Barristan (in his Arstan disguise) says:  "A chivalrous man would dismount."  Dany also notices this:  "Oznak zo Pahl charged a third time, and now Dany could see plainly that he was riding past Belwas, the way a Westerosi knight might ride at an opponent in a tilt, rather than at him, like a Dothraki riding down a foe."

Ned seems to prefer the Dothraki method.  He describes it when he fights Jaime's men in the streets of King's Landing.  "His party was mounted, the Lannisters on foot save for Jaime himself."  And when the fighting starts, "A steel-shod hoof caught a Lannister guardsman in the face with a sickening crunch."  

That could be put down to the fact that Ned and his men were outnumbered.  Except that Ned also fights this way when the numbers are on his side.  Consider the encounter at the tower of joy.  There is a vivid description of his party:  "In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life.  Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion."  That is how Ned's party approaches the three KG at the toj.  And, "They were seven, facing three.  In the dream as it had been in life."  

It is clear the 3 KGs were not mounted.  "Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips.  The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder.  Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone.  Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower..."

And of course, there is no indication that Ned's seven dismounted before "Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand.  They were seven against three."  

And there is a third example.  During the Sack of King's Landing, Ned went to the throne room to find Aerys and to kill him.  He knows he is probably going to have to cut down Jaime Lannister (and maybe thinks there will be some other KGs there, too).  He expects Jaime and any others there to fight to the death.  So Ned takes a large force.  "My men were filling the room behind me."  And does he dismount?  No.  "I was still mounted.  I rode the length of the hall in silence."  So it is safe to conclude that he expected to find Jaime (and maybe more KGs) guarding Aerys in the throne room.  He planned to kill, or at least arrest, Aerys, which meant he would have to kill Jaime and any other KGs.  He would have expected any guards to be on foot, in front of the Iron Throne.  So he followed his usual fighting method and went in to ride them down.  

So the question is whether Ned's style was dishonorable?  Or just clever?     

  

 

We as readers have absolutely no clue what Ned's preferred fighting style was because we don't have any examples.  His fight with Jamie in the streets of KL was a surprise fight that he wasn't expecting, not to mention he was outnumbered, so we have no clue how Ned would have preferred to fight that one out, although I'm sure he would prefer to be mounted considering how outnumbered they were.

As for the TOJ, there is nothing in the text to make us believe that Ned fought the KG knights while mounted.  "In his dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life" simply means that his friends rode with him to the TOJ.  In my opinion, the much safer assumption is that Ned and his friends dismounted to fight the KG.  Ned is honorable and has too much respect for the KG knights to do otherwise.  He brought 7 guys to try and avoid fighting most likely, but when the KG knights made it clear that they were in it to the death he had no choice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Did he? As far as I knew all he ever said on the matter was "He would have killed me but for Howland Reed" which to me definitely doesn't scream "Single Combat!". Frankly, if you heard that Reed had saved Ned's life when he was fighting Dayne then you'd be pretty stupid to think that it was single combat. The very fact that Reed got involved proves that this was a skirmish, not a one on one dual.

Ned says that to Bran, without providing any context.  However, Catelyn tells us in AGOT that "a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers.  They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat."  That is the story going around in Winterfell.  Surely Ned knew that this is what his men were saying, and he did nothing to set things straight.  I think the implication is that he is happy for people to believe this because it helps his reputation.  (Just like Jaime enjoys his reputation as the Kingslayer, even though the truth may be more complicated.  He tells Ned:  "Show me your steel, Lord Eddard.  I'll butcher you like Aerys if I must, but I'd sooner you died with a blade in your hand."). 

4 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

A duel is much more ritualized and codified than a casual fight to the death. Notice that even Ser Barry, as fixated about honor as he was, had no qualms about gutting an unarmored Khrazz. Or, as Prince Corwin of Amber would put it, it wasn't exactly Summer Olympics.

And when Jaime ordered Ned's men murdered on the street just to make a point, to pose a question whether Ned did act dishonorably is... I think I'll go with "creative".

Fair point about Khraz, although the pit fighters have contempt for armor and Khraz would not have worn it if he had an opportunity.  As Jorah says about Belwas, when Dany wants him armored:  "Mail would only slow him," said Ser Jorah.  "They wear no armor in the fighting pits."

I wasn't suggesting that Ned acted dishonorably when he fought Jaime's men.  He was ambushed by a superior force and was trying to ride free.  My point was that he uses the same tactics whether he is outnumbered or not, and the fight with Jaime's men is the best description. 

And I am not sure Lord Corwin is a good example.  Benedict doesn't think much of his tactics.  Neither does Dara.

30 minutes ago, acwill07 said:

We as readers have absolutely no clue what Ned's preferred fighting style was because we don't have any examples.  His fight with Jamie in the streets of KL was a surprise fight that he wasn't expecting, not to mention he was outnumbered, so we have no clue how Ned would have preferred to fight that one out, although I'm sure he would prefer to be mounted considering how outnumbered they were.

As for the TOJ, there is nothing in the text to make us believe that Ned fought the KG knights while mounted.  "In his dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life" simply means that his friends rode with him to the TOJ.  In my opinion, the much safer assumption is that Ned and his friends dismounted to fight the KG.  Ned is honorable and has too much respect for the KG knights to do otherwise.  He brought 7 guys to try and avoid fighting most likely, but when the KG knights made it clear that they were in it to the death he had no choice.

I agree about the fight with Jaime's men. But at the toj, Ned rides up, he describes Lord Dustin's horse in detail, he exchanges words with the KGs, and then they come together in a rush of steel.  There is no dismounting.  And, Ned repeats more than once that it is 7 vs. 3.  I think it is pretty clear that part of his shame/regret about the whole thing is that he doesn't think it was a fair fight. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

Ned says that to Bran, without providing any context.  However, Catelyn tells us in AGOT that "a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers.  They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat."  That is the story going around in Winterfell.  Surely Ned knew that this is what his men were saying, and he did nothing to set things straight.  I think the implication is that he is happy for people to believe this because it helps his reputation.  (Just like Jaime enjoys his reputation as the Kingslayer, even though the truth may be more complicated.  He tells Ned:  "Show me your steel, Lord Eddard.  I'll butcher you like Aerys if I must, but I'd sooner you died with a blade in your hand."). 

Fair point about Khraz, although the pit fighters have contempt for armor and Khraz would not have worn it if he had an opportunity.  As Jorah says about Belwas, when Dany wants him armored:  "Mail would only slow him," said Ser Jorah.  "They wear no armor in the fighting pits."

I wasn't suggesting that Ned acted dishonorably when he fought Jaime's men.  He was ambushed by a superior force and was trying to ride free.  My point was that he uses the same tactics whether he is outnumbered or not, and the fight with Jaime's men is the best description. 

And I am not sure Lord Corwin is a good example.  Benedict doesn't think much of his tactics.  Neither does Dara.

I agree about the fight with Jaime's men. But at the toj, Ned rides up, he describes Lord Dustin's horse in detail, he exchanges words with the KGs, and then they come together in a rush of steel.  There is no dismounting.  And, Ned repeats more than once that it is 7 vs. 3.  I think it is pretty clear that part of his shame/regret about the whole thing is that he doesn't think it was a fair fight. 

I think you are reaching, but that's ok.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 26/02/2017 at 9:56 PM, The Twinslayer said:

It is clear the 3 KGs were not mounted.  "Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips.  The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder.  Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone.  Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower..."

And of course, there is no indication that Ned's seven dismounted before "Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand.  They were seven against three."  

It was a fever dream, we have no idea whether it was an accurate representation of what happened. And we're not given a description of the fight at all, so we don't know who was mounted or not. Ned and co. could have dismounted, the KG could have mounted up. We don't know. And anyway, like others have said, it wasn't a duel, they were trying to fight their way through to save his sister (in his eyes).

 

On 26/02/2017 at 11:12 PM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

And when Jaime ordered Ned's men murdered on the street just to make a point, to pose a question whether Ned did act dishonorably is... I think I'll go with "creative".

I had a chuckle at this. I like the idea of Jaime setting his goons on Ned's men, and when they refuse to dismount saying "Horses? Well that's just not cricket." 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 27.02.2017 at 4:16 AM, The Twinslayer said:

Fair point about Khraz, although the pit fighters have contempt for armor and Khraz would not have worn it if he had an opportunity.  As Jorah says about Belwas, when Dany wants him armored:  "Mail would only slow him," said Ser Jorah.  "They wear no armor in the fighting pits."

Yes, but in the name of good sportsmanship and getting yourself killed silly, wouldn't Ser Barry have taken off his armor?

But it was a fight, not a game, and so he didn't.

On 27.02.2017 at 4:16 AM, The Twinslayer said:

I wasn't suggesting that Ned acted dishonorably when he fought Jaime's men.  He was ambushed by a superior force and was trying to ride free.  My point was that he uses the same tactics whether he is outnumbered or not, and the fight with Jaime's men is the best description. 

And I am not sure Lord Corwin is a good example.  Benedict doesn't think much of his tactics.  Neither does Dara.

Nor Borel, by the way. Not exactly unbiased opinions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...