Heresy 196 and a look at the Wall

[LynnS]

22 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The physicality of the Wall was meant to keep the people who were aligned with or who were also practicing ice magic contained. If they did happen to escape south of the Wall they would be unable to work magic there, and they would be killed on sight by the "shield", namely the Starks of Winterfell.

As we've discussed before the Wall is the dragon that swallows it's own tail.  It consumes and contains the killing cold and continues growing physically and magically over thousands of years.  That's consistent with a glacier whether it's the frontal face of an ice sheet or an extension of glaciers existing on mountain tops and ridges.  The Wall is a dam or a weir.  The physicality of the wall is a result of the build-up of ice magic.  The original wall was smaller because it grew east to west before reaching those limits and started piling up on top of itself.

The lands beyond the Wall became a prison for the wildlings after the overthrow of the original watch but it hasn't stopped them from going over or around the wall either.  They are the free people who refuse to kneel and they still honor the old gods which gives them guest rights among the CotF.  The only time Ned thinks he has to confront Mance is when he thinks the wildlings are causing problems for the watch. Of late, Ned's job as warden has been to ensure that nobody deserts the watch rather than catching wildlings south of the wall.

But certainly the CotF fled beyond the wall for their own safety.  There are few wild weirwoods south of the Wall except for those still kept in places like Winterfell and these are either unsafe or dead.  I don't think CotF can live without the weirwoods.  

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I have to say that the scriptwriters appear to have been rather heavily influenced by the writings of a Mr Martin of our acquaintanceship rather than the other way around

The movie may have borrowed some inspiration, but the Taotei are ancient Chinese mythology. Interestingly during the Ming dynasty the Taotei were included as one of the fourteen children of the dragon. Included in their description is a creature that likes water and and is depicted on bridges. It is also a creature used to punish humans who covet power and wealth. If people become too greedy it can trigger an attack by the Taotei.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

The movie may have borrowed some inspiration, but the Taotei are ancient Chinese mythology. Interestingly during the Ming dynasty the Taotei were included as one of the fourteen children of the dragon. Included in their description is a creature that likes water and and is depicted on bridges. It is also a creature used to punish humans who covet power and wealth. If people become too greedy it can trigger an attack by the Taotei.

Yeah, I followed the link, but while the name has been used, the movie sounds more Martin than mythology.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Who's to say that the Wall wasn't actually built to expand the realms of men by pushing the Children north?

As to your bolded point, I have to disagree. The more we see and learn of the Wall the less "human" it appears. It is not a wonder built by man but something which man has found, occupied and used

[LynnS]

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"Me too," Rickon echoed.

"Oh, very well," Luwin muttered. "So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea.

 

"The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests. The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end the six southron kingdoms all fell before them. Only here, where the King in the North threw back every army that tried to cross the Neck, did the rule of the First Men endure. The Andals burnt out the weirwood groves, hacked down the faces, slaughtered the children where they found them, and everywhere proclaimed the triumph of the Seven over the old gods. So the children fled north—"

Maester Luwin gives a good explanation of why the CotF fled north and he makes a distinction between the Age of Heroes and the Long Night. The Pact preceded or marked the beginning the Age of Heroes and the story of the Last Hero is the beginning of the Age of Heroes.  The Last Hero is likely the negotiator of the Pact contingent on him removing a common threat to the FM and the CotF;  a weapon that the CotF created but could no longer control:  the killing cold, the wights and the 'Others'.  The CotF are presented as passive in the conflict but that is likely ignorance of their magical ability and the part they played in creating their cold weapons.  The CotF can build a wall to contain the cold or stop it spreading beyond a certain point; but the last hero had to contend with the Others alone.  

I think that the battle between Waymar Royce and the WW in the Prologue of GoT is instructive because it is essentially a trial by champion with the remaining WW's standing as witness rather than participating in the slaughter.   It's only after Waymar is slain that the WW's blood their swords.  There is a hierarchy in that group with a defined leader.  I suspect that the same was true of the last hero and his opponent having defeated their leader with the weapon given to him by the CotF.  The question is whether or not the Last Hero went with this army back north to the land of always winter as their new leader.   

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces.

"The Pact began four thousand years of friendship between men and children. In time, the First Men even put aside the gods they had brought with them, and took up the worship of the secret gods of the wood. The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and began the Age of Heroes."

Bran's fist curled around the shiny black arrowhead. "But the children of the forest are all gone now, you said."

So 4,000 years of friendship before the Andals came and the next conflict with the CotF.

 

 

 

  

[Melifeather]

59 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Maester Luwin gives a good explanation of why the CotF fled north and he makes a distinction between the Age of Heroes and the Long Night. The Pact preceded or marked the beginning the Age of Heroes and the story of the Last Hero is the beginning of the Age of Heroes.  The Last Hero is likely the negotiator of the Pact contingent on him removing a common threat to the FM and the CotF;  a weapon that the CotF created but could no longer control:  the killing cold, the wights and the 'Others'.  The CotF are presented as passive in the conflict but that is likely ignorance of their magical ability and the part they played in creating their cold weapons.  The CotF can build a wall to contain the cold or stop it spreading beyond a certain point; but the last hero had to contend with the Others alone.  

But the Andals never defeated the North, and if the North was still an ally of the Children why didn't they feel safe remaining in the North?

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

But the Andals never defeated the North, and if the North was still an ally of the Children why didn't they feel safe remaining in the North?

Exactly so, but it probably depends on how you define allies. The First Men might worship the Old Gods but that might not be the same thing.

Lets move aside a little. If the tree huggers are sacrificing their own to the trees and communing with the trees through their greenseers then arguably they are practicing a form of ancestor worship.

Are humans "worshiping" those same long dead singers when they pray before the heart trees, or are they worshipping their own ancestors given to the wood long ago.

I don't mean here to draw a distinction between three fingered greenseers and human greenseers and imply hostility between them. If anything the opposite, but worshipping the Old Gods and allying with the Children/Singers/Three-fingered Tree-huggers may not necessarily be the same thing.

As to the Tree-huggers fleeing beyond the Wall rather than just crossing the Neck, Northmen are Men 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

But the Andals never defeated the North, and if the North was still an ally of the Children why didn't they feel safe remaining in the North?

How do we define the North?

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

Her voice had dropped very low, almost to a whisper, and Bran found himself leaning forward to listen.

 

"Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—"

The FM took lands from the Cotf and then seemed to lose what they had gained; so men were pushed south by the cold and death that filled the earth.  The LH set out into the dead lands. Where were the dead lands? I suspect that dead zone was much further south than in the current timeline else how could the LH search for the secret cities of the CotF take years.  Their forest holdfasts had not yet been burned out by the Andals. If Winterfell marks the place where winter was defeated; then the dead zone was once much further south.  

But even if the North was never defeated by the Andals; the CotF were still murdered and hounded until they fled north wherever there are vast forested tracts of land.  The CotF are facing the extinction of their race:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"Gone down into the earth," she answered. "Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us."

She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well. It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

The singers sing sad songs where men would fight and kill.  So to Black Crow's point; the battle at the Neck is probably more about the sovereignty of the North than the protection of the CotF.

[Brad Stark]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Exactly so, but it probably depends on how you define allies. The First Men might worship the Old Gods but that might not be the same thing.

Lets move aside a little. If the tree huggers are sacrificing their own to the trees and communing with the trees through their greenseers then arguably they are practicing a form of ancestor worship.

Are humans "worshiping" those same long dead singers when they pray before the heart trees, or are they worshipping their own ancestors given to the wood long ago.

I don't mean here to draw a distinction between three fingered greenseers and human greenseers and imply hostility between them. If anything the opposite, but worshipping the Old Gods and allying with the Children/Singers/Three-fingered Tree-huggers may not necessarily be the same thing.

As to the Tree-huggers fleeing beyond the Wall rather than just crossing the Neck, Northmen are Men 

I've argued the opposite,  greenseers and weirwoods are tools and weapons more than gods and a proper religion.  We had a war, North vs South with the Wall as the front and humans, Children and greenseers on both sides.  The Wall and the Others are remnants of that war.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

I recall that all the other castles along the Wall had their underground tunnels stopped up with stone and water. A thought I naturally sprang to is that perhaps there is a weirwood beneath each castle within all that elemental blockage. The wall would then be both a sword as you mentioned, designed to bar entry, along with being a part of the magic tree network.

I'm inclined to think that the castles were built by the Andals who may have sited them where there were underground sources of hot water rather than in association with weirwoods.  It would have been necessary to tunnel through to the other side of the wall for a source of firewood since the land on the south side is devoid of trees.  The underground tunnels made for storage and underground living during the winters.  I also think attrition was pretty high...

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Prologue

"It was the cold," Gared said with iron certainty. "I saw men freeze last winter, and the one before, when I was half a boy. Everyone talks about snows forty foot deep, and how the ice wind comes howling out of the north, but the real enemy is the cold. It steals up on you quieter than Will, and at first you shiver and your teeth chatter and you stamp your feet and dream of mulled wine and nice hot fires. It burns, it does. Nothing burns like the cold. But only for a while. Then it gets inside you and starts to fill you up, and after a while you don't have the strength to fight it. It's easier just to sit down or go to sleep. They say you don't feel any pain toward the end. First you go weak and drowsy, and everything starts to fade, and then it's like sinking into a sea of warm milk. Peaceful, like."

 

"Such eloquence, Gared," Ser Waymar observed. "I never suspected you had it in you."

"I've had the cold in me too, lordling." Gared pulled back his hood, giving Ser Waymar a good long look at the stumps where his ears had been. "Two ears, three toes, and the little finger off my left hand. I got off light. We found my brother frozen at his watch, with a smile on his face."

As to the Wall being described as a sword in part; I find that very curious because essentially it's a sword made of ice.  Which calls to mind the Stark ancestral sword.  I doubt very much that Valyrian steel is the true ancestral sword of the Kings of Winter.  I think it more likely that the LH became the first King of Winter when he defeated Winter and took his sword in trial by combat.  I also think the LH took Winter's place at the head of that army and now resides in the frozen hell reserved for Starks.  I think this is likely the ancestral sword of the Kings of Winter in their crypts not unlike the sword that the WW used against Waymar Royce or like the Wall itself lain flat across the land like the swords across the knee of the Kings in the Crypt.  

edit:  I wonder if Bran saw the kings of winter beyond the curtain of light since the their stone statues bear their likenesses and he can name them.  Whatever magic the CotF provided to aid the LH and the first men coming with a terrible price.  Perhaps this is the terrible knowledge and the reason he must live.

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Holy hell! So first off, Dunk was the savior at the incident of Summerhall. At the Tourney of Ashford Meadow he sees the green shooting star which is what he emblazons on his shield. Of coure the events at Ashford Meadow lead Dunk to wonder if his foot is worth a prince's life and ultimately leads him to serve in the KG due to that guilt. You posited in your wheel of time thread that Summerhall was the original beginning of the breaking of the cycle that is occurring. Which is all catalyzed by Dunk seeing that green falling star at Ashford Meadow and the events that followed.

Thanks for making that connection, Cowboy Dan! I'll have to go reread that passage! 

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

I recall that all the other castles along the Wall had their underground tunnels stopped up with stone and water. A thought I naturally sprang to is that perhaps there is a weirwood beneath each castle within all that elemental blockage. The wall would then be both a sword as you mentioned, designed to bar entry, along with being a part of the magic tree network.

Ah, minor misunderstanding. The blocked tunnels referred to at the other castles were the ground level ones, like the one at Castle Black which the Watch used when going out on on rangings. There's no suggestion that there were other secret ones down below - and if there were they wouldn't be secret

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I've argued the opposite,  greenseers and weirwoods are tools and weapons more than gods and a proper religion.  We had a war, North vs South with the Wall as the front and humans, Children and greenseers on both sides.  The Wall and the Others are remnants of that war.

Nah, the text is pretty clear as to the role of the trees and of the greenseers - and in line with other work by GRRM, such as A Song for Lya

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Ah, dangit! *shrug* Sometimes when ya shoot from the hip you miss the mark.

What makes you say they wouldn't be secret also? Just piques my curiosity why the Nightfort would be so special. It's 3000 miles, seems weird to have only one secret entrance along that entire stretch. I suppose it could be an oversight by GRRM though, he does tend to overestimate distances.

 

Ah well that's one of the things we've noted in heresy. There appears to be two phases in the history of the Wall and the watch.

What some of us are suggesting is that as originally built the Wall stood complete and imprenetrable, except for a single portal between the realms of men and the otherlands beyond - at what's now the Nightfort. 

After the overthrow of the Nights King the original Watch [all 13 of them?] were replaced by a much larger one and it was they who built the castles and and tunnelled through, not under, the Wall at each of those locations in order to go ranging beyond

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Ah, dangit! *shrug* Sometimes when ya shoot from the hip you miss the mark.

What makes you say they wouldn't be secret also? Just piques my curiosity why the Nightfort would be so special. It's 3000 miles, seems weird to have only one secret entrance along that entire stretch. I suppose it could be an oversight by GRRM though, he does tend to overestimate distances.

That makes a lot of sense and serves to tie it to Winterfell too. I like it!

Reminds me of the (Free) Folk Tales regarding Gendel and Gorne leading their wildling host through tunnels under the Wall. It could explain why the Watch was lying in wait at the exit: the free folk were using the tricksy crows' underground tunnels.

If there were other magical gateways at other forts; Old Nan would probably be telling spooky stories about them as well.   Mind you there could be another portal in the crypts at Winterfell not unlike the one at the House of Undying and the Wall given the sword imagery of the Wall and the Stark ancestral sword Ice.   Although I think the valyrian sword is better described as the ancestral sword of the Lords of Winterfell rather than the Kings of Winter in their crypts.    Starks only become the Kings of Winter upon death which is rather suggestive with the iron swords acting as a ward to keep the souls of the kings imprisoned.   The Wall as counterpart, a sword across the landscape keeping the soul of ice confined.

The Starks are wardens of the north for the living and the dead; their destiny and perhaps their curse of the frozen hell reserved for Starks tied together with the Wall and Winterfell.   If Winter is the ancient enemy; how does one become it's king? Only by defeating Winter and only upon death.  Only the dead can lead an undead army.  I think this points to the story of the Last Hero who was perhaps the first King of Winter followed by a long line of kings in the crypts of Winterfell.  

And now Jon is dead, dead, dead and by way of succession; at least by the inclusion of Lyanna's statue in the crypts; Jon, the Great Bastard is a king of winter or as Melisandre refers to the enemy, the Great Other.  The very strange thing about it is that Jon is also R'hllor's instrument according to Melisandre.   How could the King of the Others be R'hllor's instrument?

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A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

H

When the flames were blazing nicely Meera put the fish on. At least it's not a meat pie. The Rat Cook had cooked the son of the Andal king in a big pie with onions, carrots, mushrooms, lots of pepper and salt, a rasher of bacon, and a dark red Dornish wine. Then he served him to his father, who praised the taste and had a second slice. Afterward the gods transformed the cook into a monstrous white rat who could only eat his own young. He had roamed the Nightfort ever since, devouring his children, but still his hunger was not sated. "It was not for murder that the gods cursed him," Old Nan said, "nor for serving the Andal king his son in a pie. A man has a right to vengeance. But he slew a guest beneath his roof, and that the gods cannot forgive."

Addendum:  To add to the prospect that Jon is a king's son; consider the following:

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A Storm of Swords - Davos IV

He does not use the boy's name. That made Davos very uneasy. "I hope young Edric will recover soon."

Stannis waved a hand, dismissing his concern. "It is a chill, no more. He coughs, he shivers, he has a fever. Maester Pylos will soon set him right. By himself the boy is nought, you understand, but in his veins flows my brother's blood. There is power in a king's blood, she says."

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI

Jon frowned in disbelief. "That's … queer."

"You think so?" She knelt and scratched Ghost behind his ear. "Your Wall is a queer place, but there is power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast. You resist it, and that is your mistake. Embrace it. Use it."

 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Starks only become the Kings of Winter upon death which is rather suggestive with the iron swords acting as a ward to keep the souls of the kings imprisoned.   The Wall as counterpart, a sword across the landscape keeping the soul of ice confined.

I go back and forth regarding the posture of the Kings of Winter portrayed with swords across their laps. While I understand that the iron swords keep their ghosts from leaving their crypts, there is also the suggestion that it's a sign that the Lord is refusing guest right. Robb Stark took this position when receiving Tyrion on his way back down from the Wall, and while his appearance and demeanor was certainly unwelcoming, he did allow Tyrion to spend the night unmolested. So Robb did honor guest right, but Tyrion also knew he was unwelcome and didn't delay his stay. On the other hand it would make sense to understand the posture of the stone Kings of Winter as denying guest right down in the crypts.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I go back and forth regarding the posture of the Kings of Winter portrayed with swords across their laps. While I understand that the iron swords keep their ghosts from leaving their crypts, there is also the suggestion that it's a sign that the Lord is refusing guest right. Robb Stark took this position when receiving Tyrion on his way back down from the Wall, and while his appearance and demeanor was certainly unwelcoming, he did allow Tyrion to spend the night unmolested. So Robb did honor guest right, but Tyrion also knew he was unwelcome and didn't delay his stay. On the other hand it would make sense to understand the posture of the stone Kings of Winter as denying guest right down in the crypts.

I don't think it's only about denying guest rights.  It's also about confining the souls of the dead and it's a warning to the liviing not to enter the dead place.  This is in parallel with the Wall as a sword essentially symbolizing the same thing and the heart of winter that Bran sees.  Whatever Bran saw, he didn't scream in horror, he cried hot tears.  I think he saw something he recognized... the kings of winter imprisoned in the frozen hell reserved for Starks. 

I think it possible that Ned heard about it from Howland Reed and why it is mentioned:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard IV

"Another day," Ned said. Perhaps too sharply, from the looks they gave him. He would have to remember that he was no longer in Winterfell, where only the king stood higher; here, he was but first among equals. "Forgive me, my lords," he said in a softer tone. "I am tired. Let us call a halt for today and resume when we are fresher." He did not ask for their consent, but stood abruptly, nodded at them all, and made for the door.

 

Outside, wagons and riders were still pouring through the castle gates, and the yard was a chaos of mud and horseflesh and shouting men. The king had not yet arrived, he was told. Since the ugliness on the Trident, the Starks and their household had ridden well ahead of the main column, the better to separate themselves from the Lannisters and the growing tension. Robert had hardly been seen; the talk was he was traveling in the huge wheelhouse, drunk as often as not. If so, he might be hours behind, but he would still be here too soon for Ned's liking. He had only to look at Sansa's face to feel the rage twisting inside him once again. The last fortnight of their journey had been a misery. Sansa blamed Arya and told her that it should have been Nymeria who died. And Arya was lost after she heard what had happened to her butcher's boy. Sansa cried herself to sleep, Arya brooded silently all day long, and Eddard Stark dreamed of a frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell.

It also brings to mind Bran's dream of his father and whatever it was that Ned told him about Jon.

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A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

 

The mention of dreams reminded him. "I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad."

"And why was that?" Luwin peered through his tube.

"It was something to do about Jon, I think." The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams. "Hodor won't go down into the crypts."

And then there is Ned's dream:

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

 

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"They started back down between the pillars. Blind stone eyes seemed to follow them as they passed. The king kept his arm around Ned's shoulder. "You must have wondered why I finally came north to Winterfell, after so long."

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

Ned knew the saying. "What the king dreams," he said, "the Hand builds."

"I bedded a fishmaid once who told me the lowborn have a choicer way to put it. The king eats, they say, and the Hand takes the shit." He threw back his head and roared his laughter. The echoes rang through the darkness, and all around them the dead of Winterfell seemed to watch with cold and disapproving eyes.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

For a moment Eddard Stark was filled with a terrible sense of foreboding. This was his place, here in the north. He looked at the stone figures all around them, breathed deep in the chill silence of the crypt. He could feel the eyes of the dead. They were all listening, he knew. And winter was coming.

 

So I do think that Ned's dream of the eyes blue of death is a reflection of the eyes of the kings of winter in the crypts.  Jon, who should be Lord of Winterfell, hence the disapproving eyes and Ned's feelings of guilt and shame about Jon. 

 

 

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

 Starks only become the Kings of Winter upon death which is rather suggestive with the iron swords acting as a ward to keep the souls of the kings imprisoned.   The Wall as counterpart, a sword across the landscape keeping the soul of ice confined.

The Starks are wardens of the north for the living and the dead; their destiny and perhaps their curse of the frozen hell reserved for Starks tied together with the Wall and Winterfell.   If Winter is the ancient enemy; how does one become it's king? Only by defeating Winter and only upon death.  Only the dead can lead an undead army.  I think this points to the story of the Last Hero who was perhaps the first King of Winter followed by a long line of kings in the crypts of Winterfell.  

I'm not convinced about this one at all and can't think of anything in the text to support it. Indeed the first reference to Kings of Winter is when Robb is proclaimed King in the North; all except Maege Mormont, who proclaims him King of Winter - at a time of course when he is very much alive. Similarly, in going through the crypts, Bran only notes the older ones as King of Winter.

If there's a significance to the change in title, I'd suggest its more likely that the Nights King was the last King of Winterfell and that after he was overthrown the Stark Lords of Winterfell styled themselves Kings in the North instead.

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I don't think it's only about denying guest rights.  It's also about confining the souls of the dead and it's a warning to the liviing not to enter the dead place.  This is in parallel with the Wall as a sword essentially symbolizing the same thing and the heart of winter that Bran sees.  Whatever Bran saw, he didn't scream in horror, he cried hot tears.  I think he saw something he recognized... the kings of winter imprisoned in the frozen hell reserved for Starks. 

I think it possible that Ned heard about it from Howland Reed and why it is mentioned:

It also brings to mind Bran's dream of his father and whatever it was that Ned told him about Jon.

And then there is Ned's dream:

So I do think that Ned's dream of the eyes blue of death is a reflection of the eyes of the kings of winter in the crypts.  Jon, who should be Lord of Winterfell, hence the disapproving eyes and Ned's feelings of guilt and shame about Jon. 

 

 

I guess that would depend upon whether or not Jon was older than Robb. If Robb is the elder and you have to be dead to be King of Winter, then Robb would take up that position, right?

As for the Kings of Winter title, something definitely happened with a Lord of Winterfell being ousted by someone with an iron sword as signified by the crown of the King in the North with the bronze circlet surrounded by iron swords. That crown is symbolic of an overthrow, but to me it doesn't make sense that it was an overthrow of the Nights King, because he was Lord Commander of the Wall not Lord of Winterfell. What I'm wondering is if there was a bastard that overthrew his father and then claimed the Stark name and the title King in the North?

[LynnS]

24 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'm not convinced about this one at all and can't think of anything in the text to support it. Indeed the first reference to Kings of Winter is when Robb is proclaimed King in the North; all except Maege Mormont, who proclaims him King of Winter - at a time of course when he is very much alive. Similarly, in going through the crypts, Bran only notes the older ones as King of Winter.

If there's a significance to the change in title, I'd suggest its more likely that the Nights King was the last King of Winterfell and that after he was overthrown the Stark Lords of Winterfell styled themselves Kings in the North instead.

That Maege Mormont calls Robb the King of Winter is interesting but this certainly points to the original title.   What I'm suggesting is that the Lords of Winterfell or Kings of the North become the King of Winter on their death as part of the original Pact. They become the soul of winter.   This is why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.   They can erase history and disassociate themselves from the Night's King but the frozen hell that waits for Starks isn't removed by changing from the King of Winter to the Kings of the North.  What has happened is that the line of kings is broken; neither the remains of Rob nor Eddard are locked in their crypts and the Stark line has been usurped.  So now winter is coming seeming to activate in part at Winterfell.

I think the Last Hero was the first King of Winter transformed by the CotF to withstand the killing cold perhaps something along the lines of Coldhands as has been the speculation. And I think he went back north with the undead army trapped beyond the curtain of light.  In the heart of winter.   There is always a price to pay for sorcery and I don't think the LH was any exception.  The price is being being paid by his bloodline.   Their souls are forfeit, this is one of the controls, that winter has a king.   Now there is no King of Winter to control the forces of winter.  Unless Jon is meant to take up that role. This is perhaps the reason that Howland Reed saved Ned's life specifically for Jon's protection and Bran's birth.  We have the metaphorical killing of dawn at the ToJ and now the line of kings is broken. So now the storm of rose petals blue as the eyes of death is unleashed.  The wall is the last line of defense as winter slams into it full force at the end of DwD. 

Jon and Bran have to defeat winter all over again, as it was in the beginning - 'now it begins, now it ends." But I suspect that Jon may use that army for vengeance.  Woe to the Freys and the Boltons.